SWtoR has specifically gated content that they will advertise in-game as well as provide quests for, but require premium access to otherwise you are restricted in play.
You're free to share your own titles that can be examined for the way they operate and methods used to incentivize players that does not actually contribute to quality of play or even sometimes exist at the cost of.
Swtor for example you can play the entire vanilla game for free 1-50. There is no content that is "gated" sure some QoL features are restricted but you are playing for free.
You can complete every single quest 1-50 again no content is restricted, yes you can't wear certain gear but no content is gated.
The way they operate? They are a business not a welfare program. You want to have zero restrictions in Swtor? Pay $15/month. You want to have limited restrictions? Pay $5 total.
Also in Swtor every unlock can be purchased ingame with ingame currency.
Examine how they operate lol no company has to justify their business to people like you. If it was such a bad business practice they wouldn't be in the top for MMORPGS. You are free to not play it for whatever reason you choose but to sit and examine it as if they are wrong and you know better is ridiculous.
Yeah, it's odd that he went to SWTOR when that's a game where you open up a ton of features/caps with a single $4.99 purchase.
It seems to come from their perspective, which is neither right nor wrong, but certainly from a stance of entitlement. Their concerns about "quality of life" and "reward denial" in a later post seems to reinforce that.
"Archeage similarly has the "Labor" mechanic that enforces downtime on players for a multitude of activities including access to loot and resources from mobs."
The game is sold as free to play, and for a monthly fee a person can open up more freedoms and options, such as offline labor point accumulation. Deivos looks at it from the other end, perceiving the premium experience to be the baseline, and the free experience to be the scaled down version that "enforces" restrictions. At least it seems that way. If their contention is that free is the baseline and people should not be allowed to pay for additional features or services then that's an even more unrealistic and irrational stance. Not sure that's where they were going with that, though.
When you attend a performance or sporting event, do you feel it is wrong or right that the free playbill you got when you entered has ads for the VIP seats and event souvenirs?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
When you attend a performance or sporting event, do you feel it is wrong or right that the free playbill you got when you entered has ads for the VIP seats and event souvenirs?
If they hand you a souvenir and then tell you that you have to give it back at the end of the show, yes.
And that would be the point that you and Nuke are presently dodging about SWtoR and the dilemma posed by the use of reward denial.
As for the Archeage comment, it's worth pointing out that most F2P games don't consolidate mob money and most random loot in bags that requires a finite currency to unlock.
The fact that I stated this...
"And again, "it's not welfare" is an entirely facetious remark as the demand has never been to make a F2P game completely free, but to not monetize it at the expense of the gameplay. Some quality of life, convenience items, progression enhancements, etc are all fine and dandy things. The problem is the manner in which it's sold to players by what is in many cases essentially a bait and switch or other tactic that expressly makes the player witness or "own" something that they can't actually utilize, complete, or otherwise until they pay up. To be informed of additional quality content that one can purchase is perfectly acceptable, to drop it in a person's inventory and then tell them it's "just for looksies" is cruel."
Or this...
"F2P is a perfectly fine method if it's not being abused, but at present there is a lot of abusive design choices that work on a numeric level yet fail to deliver quality gameplay that stands on it's own."
Directly disproves the claim you just tried to make that "Deivos looks at it from the other end, perceiving the premium experience to be the baseline, and the free experience to be the scaled down version that "enforces" restrictions." The act of restricting the game, as I have stated several times in this thread, is not the problem. The means in which they monetize those restrictions can vary greatly though, ans some of the most prevalent practices at present are to the detriment of the consumer.
[mod edit]
Post edited by Vaross on
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
When you attend a performance or sporting event, do you feel it is wrong or right that the free playbill you got when you entered has ads for the VIP seats and event souvenirs?
If they hand you a souvenir and then tell you that you have to give it back at the end of the show, yes.
And that would be the point that you and Nuke are presently dodging about SWtoR and the dilemma posed by the use of reward denial.
Oh look you are wrong again and completely out of touch . A more realistic analogy would be them doing tours of the VIP seats and the souvenir you get for BUYING these seats, they let you look at souvenir, read all the perks you get for sitting in the VIP area but Once the game starts you need to go back to your own seats.
The gear in question you never had the ability to use so your poor analogy is that just a really poor analogy but that is nothing new from you.
Again your quote fits perfectly for your own post.
"You didn't even try to not lie just now. If you want to make a rational argument, the first step is to base it in reality."
Its amazing how everyone on this site who disagrees with you is "irrational".
Obviously you cannot compete with "Free" in a mass-market environment. That's why all the major MMO's will soon be "F2P".
But then again, few companies would object to a payment model that has no limits on the top-end. With F2P, your profits are only limited by your inventiveness and your skill at manipulating human psychology...
Oh look you are wrong again and completely out of touch . A more realistic analogy would be them doing tours of the VIP seats and the souvenir you get for BUYING these seats, they let you look at souvenir, read all the perks you get for sitting in the VIP area but Once the game starts you need to go back to your own seats.
Yeah, no.
Having an item literally in your inventory taking up bag space that you're not even allowed to use is itself more than a little bit of bait.
EDIT: Like the other thread, it's best if you either address the content discussed, or simply stop responding.
Attacking me in an off topic tangent yet again, serves no benefit.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Oh look you are wrong again and completely out of touch . A more realistic analogy would be them doing tours of the VIP seats and the souvenir you get for BUYING these seats, they let you look at souvenir, read all the perks you get for sitting in the VIP area but Once the game starts you need to go back to your own seats.
Yeah, no.
Having an item literally in your inventory taking up bag space that you're not even allowed to use is itself more than a little bit of bait.
EDIT: Like the other thread, it's best if you either address the content discussed, or simply stop responding.
Attacking me in an off topic tangent yet again, serves no benefit.
There are no attacks.... I stated your analogy was poor which it was and stated you claim everyone who disagrees with you is irrational. No attacks
When you attend a performance or sporting event, do you feel it is wrong or right that the free playbill you got when you entered has ads for the VIP seats and event souvenirs?
If they hand you a souvenir and then tell you that you have to give it back at the end of the show, yes.
And that would be the point that you and Nuke are presently dodging about SWtoR and the dilemma posed by the use of reward denial.
Oh look you are wrong again and completely out of touch . A more realistic analogy would be them doing tours of the VIP seats and the souvenir you get for BUYING these seats, they let you look at souvenir, read all the perks you get for sitting in the VIP area but Once the game starts you need to go back to your own seats.
The gear in question you never had the ability to use so your poor analogy is that just a really poor analogy but that is nothing new from you.
Again your quote fits perfectly for your own post.
"You didn't even try to not lie just now. If you want to make a rational argument, the first step is to base it in reality."
Its amazing how everyone on this site who disagrees with you is "irrational".
I didn't get their analogy either.
When do you hand a playbill back at the end of the performance? What is the MMO equivalent you are referring to, Deivros?
And please, if you can, try to avoid the namecalling and insults when you reply. Calling me irrational and a liar really isn't productive or even warranted.
@Deivos , can you give an example of what you are talking about?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
When do you hand a playbill back at the end of the performance? What is the MMO equivalent you are referring ot?
And please, if you can, try to avoid the namecalling and insults when you reply. Calling me irrational and a liar really isn't productive or even warranted.
@Deivos , can you give an example of what you are talking about?
You could have simply read the post to see that it was referring to the locked tier equipment in the game that you have to pay or sub to unlock in SWtoR.
And sure, I didn't have to call you irrational and a liar since I posted evidence of how you ere one as well. So for that I guess I apologize.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
When do you hand a playbill back at the end of the performance? What is the MMO equivalent you are referring ot?
And please, if you can, try to avoid the namecalling and insults when you reply. Calling me irrational and a liar really isn't productive or even warranted.
@Deivos , can you give an example of what you are talking about?
You could have simply read the post to see that it was referring to the locked tier equipment in the game that you have to pay or sub to unlock in SWtoR.
And sure, I didn't have to call you irrational and a liar since I posted evidence of how you ere one as well. So for that I guess I apologize.
When do you hand a playbill back at the end of the performance? What is the MMO equivalent you are referring ot?
And please, if you can, try to avoid the namecalling and insults when you reply. Calling me irrational and a liar really isn't productive or even warranted.
@Deivos , can you give an example of what you are talking about?
You could have simply read the post to see that it was referring to the locked tier equipment in the game that you have to pay or sub to unlock in SWtoR.
And sure, I didn't have to call you irrational and a liar since I posted evidence of how you ere one as well. So for that I guess I apologize.
Lol and tells me to stop attacking
Yeah, I'm done here before I get myself banned. Cheers, man.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
When do you hand a playbill back at the end of the performance? What is the MMO equivalent you are referring ot?
And please, if you can, try to avoid the namecalling and insults when you reply. Calling me irrational and a liar really isn't productive or even warranted.
@Deivos , can you give an example of what you are talking about?
You could have simply read the post to see that it was referring to the locked tier equipment in the game that you have to pay or sub to unlock in SWtoR.
And sure, I didn't have to call you irrational and a liar since I posted evidence of how you ere one as well. So for that I guess I apologize.
Lol and tells me to stop attacking
Yeah, I'm done here before I get myself banned. Cheers, man.
Probably good advice...so you can get banned around here for a simple discussion on what is a poor analogy?
The monetization strategy and how it affects the player has a lot of meaning. The mechanic stated that SWtoR utilizes, is one such example among others that were provided which were given to show that the games have practices that go beyond advertising content for their titles into practices in the course of gameplay that will directly affect the person's behavior and reasoning skills to incentivise payment.
I made this point and I call it detrimental because it's not a strategy that's dependent on delivering a "good game", but instead only mandates the development of a sufficient title for employing what is effectively mindgames.
That SWtoR got picked on was largely a choice by you guys, as the one I expounded most on previously was LoL, as it's got some of the most transparent behaviors fitting this problem. That doesn't make the fact that the game presently discussed displays similar tactics and treatment of customers any less of a reality, but I digress.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
The monetization strategy and how it affects the player has a lot of meaning. The mechanic stated that SWtoR utilizes, is one such example among others that were provided which were given to show that the games have practices that go beyond advertising content for their titles into practices in the course of gameplay that will directly affect the person's behavior and reasoning skills to incentivise payment.
I made this point and I call it detrimental because it's not a strategy that's dependent on delivering a "good game", but instead only mandates the development of a sufficient title for employing what is effectively mindgames.
That SWtoR got picked on was largely a choice by you guys, as the one I expounded most on previously was LoL, as it's got some of the most transparent behaviors fitting this problem. That doesn't make the fact that the game presently discussed displays similar tactics and treatment of customers any less of a reality, but I digress.
It's clear non of us irrational folk want to discuss your copy/paste junk. Have the author of your comments stop by id engage them in a discussion.
You still call it copy/paste even though I only have one quote in the entire thing?
If you want to find and talk to Leigh Alexander (the author of the article I quoted for that one snippet) or Teut Weidemann (analyst that works at "Ubisoft Blue Byte") who was referenced within the article alongside the Alexa and ComScore (two data analytic companies that provided facts about the company) then I won't stop you.
Until then, refusal to talk about the subject on which you keep adamantly responding is most definitely irrational.
It does nothing to discredit the points made about any of the games mentioned, it fails to address the fact that there are more than a few faulty practices that are very distinctly unnecessary and exploitative of the consumers, and it doesn't even serve to rebuke the fact that there are considerably more ethical solutions within the F2P market itself that people could be turning to, but have yet to become the standard.
Which leaves us in a situation where we are left with a drain on production standards while developers follow metrics-calculated strategies to monetize a game without considering where they have deviated from looking at the quality of game and gameplay to instead looking at how they can poke at a person's psyche to best bilk them.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
It's not hard to compete with free. In fact it's the opposite. Brands that are doing the best today are extremely high end brands not brands that sell things really cheap.
This is problem with where MMORPGs are today. There are all kinds of garbage games where I can go and spend hundreds or thousands of dollars a month to gain an unfair advantage over other players in these garbage games. There is no place I can go that allows me to spend more than 50 cents a day to receive a higher quality game.
Which MMORPGS can you spend all this money and get an advantage? Could you name "all of them" please?
Unfair advantage was poor wording on my part as it's completely subjective. I should have just said advantage. I had PWI in mind where I first encountered what I would call pay to win where people spent hundreds of dollars to dominate free players in PvP who were in turn dominated by people spent thousands of dollars who were in turn dominated by people who spent over ten thousand.
This is somewhat a product of Asian games that have a +1 to +10 or +15 or +20 upgrade system for gear. Games like TERA or Aion or AA (or a hundred other far less successful games from Korea/China) where upgrading gear is necessary to be successful and requires a ton of in game currency then a cash shop full of items than can be turned into in game currency or which outright allow you to upgrade gear more easily this is a very real advantage.
There is a much discussed lecture given by the head of R2 games that describes how the Chinese browser market works and one of the key features is geometric scaling that allows people to spend more and more to gain even larger advantages. This is less pronounced in western games because there isn't the same upgrade systems.
For a game like SWTOR I gain a huge amount of benefits from subscribing but for every dollar beyond that it's far less pronounced. If I had say $200 to spend a month I could buy a ton of pacs or unlocks and sell them to gain in game currency. For a new player being able to access a large amount of in game currency is a significant boost allowing them to buy high end crafted gear/augments/mods. However, for an established max level player that already built up good gear through play or for players who aren't in a hurry to skip content this advantage is negligible and there is no pressure on them to spend beyond the monthly subscription fee.
Which leaves us in a situation where we are left with a drain on production standards while developers follow metrics-calculated strategies to monetize a game without considering where they have deviated from looking at the quality of game and gameplay to instead looking at how they can poke at a person's psyche to best bilk them.
There is no one to milk, if players don't like your game and play it.
There are SO many games to choose from ... it is actually quite difficult to build a game fun enough to attract a big enough haystack to find those few whales.
There is no one to milk, if players don't like your game and play it.
There are SO many games to choose from ... it is actually quite difficult to build a game fun enough to attract a big enough haystack to find those few whales.
For one, there are more than whales in the F2P market.
Additionally, the point of the diatribe is that the quality of the game has become less relevant than the metrics/statistics being used to "game" the players. What it means is that most games don't have to be good, they simply have to be "good enough".
When "whale chasing" you're looking at a few different things. One of the factors is that whales are indeed more picky. They need more reason to stay, but that is not necessarily in the form of game content. Incentivizing players to stick around in the games with some regularity of rewards and return benefits helps to draw community, and that is a strong selling point for whales in general.
So there is some validity to your comment, in that it is seldom that a game is really beneficially designed to support whales. There are some examples of how that has changed or is changing though.
EDIT: I should put the qualifier that I am largely referring to western gaming, as asian games have had alot of this figured out for quite a while.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Additionally, the point of the diatribe is that the quality of the game has become less relevant than the metrics/statistics being used to "game" the players. What it means is that most games don't have to be good, they simply have to be "good enough".
"Good enough" is just another term for "good".
In fact, if you are not better than your competition, why would anyone play your game? If they are all free, wouldn't players choose the highest quality one?
And without a lot of players, how are you going to find the whales?
It is not mutually exclusive to be "better than your competition" and "using metrics and statistics". In fact, "good" is nothing but statistically, more players like game A than game B. Otherwise, we are just talking about personal preferences, and there is no universal "good" or "bad".
In fact, if you are not better than your competition, why would anyone play your game? If they are all free, wouldn't players choose the highest quality one?
And without a lot of players, how are you going to find the whales?
It is not mutually exclusive to be "better than your competition" and "using metrics and statistics". In fact, "good" is nothing but statistically, more players like game A than game B. Otherwise, we are just talking about personal preferences, and there is no universal "good" or "bad".
Not really, and this misses the point again. Poe point is that there is no incentive to build a sufficiently good game in most cases as the ability to exploit consumers works without them being all that happy about it. You're keeping them playing by the game not actually being fun as much as they feel they will lose something otherwise.
And no, "good" is not "more players like game A than game B". You are referring to monetary success, not game quality. To which I restate that while game quality certainly contributes to success, it is not mandatory if you design your game to pick at certain psychological factors reminiscent to addiction instead. It doesn't matter what your competition is like or how good the game itself is, if their model doesn't trigger as many impulses for the player to invest themselves in the title.
Point in case, quote from the flippfly guys Forest and Aaron Filippo (2012).
"For every F2P success story like Temple Run, there is a Gasketball or a Punch Quest or a Monkey Drum. The problem is – these financial disasters are often great games..."
This isn't a comment on it being "good" or "bad" or personal preferences, but marketing and monetization strategy as it applies to within the game itself. A very quantifiable subject.
As for "And without a lot of players, how are you going to find the whales?" I don't even know where you're going with that one, but it seems like you probably agree with me that to make a game targeting the "whale" demographic, you're looking at a larger/more fleshed out title that gives sufficient incentive for a whale to invest into it. That itself is as I stated previously one of the few conditions where a game's quality takes proper relevance, as whales are slower to invest in games then most (~18+ days as opposed to a few days or less).
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
The game play for free games tends toward the obnoxious in order to induce cash shop purchases. Cash shops as a whole tend to be more expensive than subscriptions. Free to play games tend to be of much lesser quality than subscription games. I'd take a mediocre subscription game over a mediocre free to play game as I have a low tolerance for the free, yet painful game play.
More importantly, I find subscription games to be so much more immersive than the in your face money roadblocks common in free to play games.
It's 99% copy/paste I don't understand the point of arguing with a poster who doesn't have their own thoughts and just copy/paste from some spreadsheet they have on their desktop.
And no, "good" is not "more players like game A than game B". You are referring to monetary success, not game quality. To which I restate that while game quality certainly contributes to success, it is not mandatory if you design your game to pick at certain psychological factors reminiscent to addiction instead. It doesn't matter what your competition is like or how good the game itself is, if their model doesn't trigger as many impulses for the player to invest themselves in the title.
hmm ... if A has less quality than B, why would anyone even try it in the first place. You can get players to addict to your game, without them playing for a while, right?
Both game quality *and* statistics are mandatory.
You can design your game to pick at certain psychological factors all your want ... if no one plays it (i.e. fun .... and that is quality) ... you are not going to get anywhere.
To build a good mouse trap, you need an alluring piece of cheese ... game quality is that cheese. Few is going to give a ugly, unpolished game with no fun combat (or whatever gameplay you are looking for), more than 10-15 min of time ... and that is not enough to find and entice the whales.
Comments
It seems to come from their perspective, which is neither right nor wrong, but certainly from a stance of entitlement. Their concerns about "quality of life" and "reward denial" in a later post seems to reinforce that.
"Archeage similarly has the "Labor" mechanic that enforces downtime on players for a multitude of activities including access to loot and resources from mobs."
The game is sold as free to play, and for a monthly fee a person can open up more freedoms and options, such as offline labor point accumulation. Deivos looks at it from the other end, perceiving the premium experience to be the baseline, and the free experience to be the scaled down version that "enforces" restrictions. At least it seems that way. If their contention is that free is the baseline and people should not be allowed to pay for additional features or services then that's an even more unrealistic and irrational stance. Not sure that's where they were going with that, though.
@Deivos ,
When you attend a performance or sporting event, do you feel it is wrong or right that the free playbill you got when you entered has ads for the VIP seats and event souvenirs?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Make a game that is focused on a specific population and do it very well. EVE comes to mind, though I do not play it.
VG
And that would be the point that you and Nuke are presently dodging about SWtoR and the dilemma posed by the use of reward denial.
As for the Archeage comment, it's worth pointing out that most F2P games don't consolidate mob money and most random loot in bags that requires a finite currency to unlock.
The fact that I stated this...
"And again, "it's not welfare" is an entirely facetious remark as the demand has never been to make a F2P game completely free, but to not monetize it at the expense of the gameplay. Some quality of life, convenience items, progression enhancements, etc are all fine and dandy things. The problem is the manner in which it's sold to players by what is in many cases essentially a bait and switch or other tactic that expressly makes the player witness or "own" something that they can't actually utilize, complete, or otherwise until they pay up. To be informed of additional quality content that one can purchase is perfectly acceptable, to drop it in a person's inventory and then tell them it's "just for looksies" is cruel."
Or this...
"F2P is a perfectly fine method if it's not being abused, but at present there is a lot of abusive design choices that work on a numeric level yet fail to deliver quality gameplay that stands on it's own."
Directly disproves the claim you just tried to make that "Deivos looks at it from the other end, perceiving the premium experience to be the baseline, and the free experience to be the scaled down version that "enforces" restrictions." The act of restricting the game, as I have stated several times in this thread, is not the problem. The means in which they monetize those restrictions can vary greatly though, ans some of the most prevalent practices at present are to the detriment of the consumer.
[mod edit]
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
The gear in question you never had the ability to use so your poor analogy is that just a really poor analogy but that is nothing new from you.
Again your quote fits perfectly for your own post.
"You didn't even try to not lie just now.
If you want to make a rational argument, the first step is to base it in reality."
Its amazing how everyone on this site who disagrees with you is "irrational".
But then again, few companies would object to a payment model that has no limits on the top-end. With F2P, your profits are only limited by your inventiveness and your skill at manipulating human psychology...
Having an item literally in your inventory taking up bag space that you're not even allowed to use is itself more than a little bit of bait.
EDIT: Like the other thread, it's best if you either address the content discussed, or simply stop responding.
Attacking me in an off topic tangent yet again, serves no benefit.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
When do you hand a playbill back at the end of the performance? What is the MMO equivalent you are referring to, Deivros?
And please, if you can, try to avoid the namecalling and insults when you reply. Calling me irrational and a liar really isn't productive or even warranted.
@Deivos , can you give an example of what you are talking about?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
And sure, I didn't have to call you irrational and a liar since I posted evidence of how you ere one as well. So for that I guess I apologize.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The monetization strategy and how it affects the player has a lot of meaning. The mechanic stated that SWtoR utilizes, is one such example among others that were provided which were given to show that the games have practices that go beyond advertising content for their titles into practices in the course of gameplay that will directly affect the person's behavior and reasoning skills to incentivise payment.
I made this point and I call it detrimental because it's not a strategy that's dependent on delivering a "good game", but instead only mandates the development of a sufficient title for employing what is effectively mindgames.
That SWtoR got picked on was largely a choice by you guys, as the one I expounded most on previously was LoL, as it's got some of the most transparent behaviors fitting this problem. That doesn't make the fact that the game presently discussed displays similar tactics and treatment of customers any less of a reality, but I digress.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
If you want to find and talk to Leigh Alexander (the author of the article I quoted for that one snippet) or Teut Weidemann (analyst that works at "Ubisoft Blue Byte") who was referenced within the article alongside the Alexa and ComScore (two data analytic companies that provided facts about the company) then I won't stop you.
Until then, refusal to talk about the subject on which you keep adamantly responding is most definitely irrational.
It does nothing to discredit the points made about any of the games mentioned, it fails to address the fact that there are more than a few faulty practices that are very distinctly unnecessary and exploitative of the consumers, and it doesn't even serve to rebuke the fact that there are considerably more ethical solutions within the F2P market itself that people could be turning to, but have yet to become the standard.
Which leaves us in a situation where we are left with a drain on production standards while developers follow metrics-calculated strategies to monetize a game without considering where they have deviated from looking at the quality of game and gameplay to instead looking at how they can poke at a person's psyche to best bilk them.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
This is somewhat a product of Asian games that have a +1 to +10 or +15 or +20 upgrade system for gear. Games like TERA or Aion or AA (or a hundred other far less successful games from Korea/China) where upgrading gear is necessary to be successful and requires a ton of in game currency then a cash shop full of items than can be turned into in game currency or which outright allow you to upgrade gear more easily this is a very real advantage.
There is a much discussed lecture given by the head of R2 games that describes how the Chinese browser market works and one of the key features is geometric scaling that allows people to spend more and more to gain even larger advantages. This is less pronounced in western games because there isn't the same upgrade systems.
For a game like SWTOR I gain a huge amount of benefits from subscribing but for every dollar beyond that it's far less pronounced. If I had say $200 to spend a month I could buy a ton of pacs or unlocks and sell them to gain in game currency. For a new player being able to access a large amount of in game currency is a significant boost allowing them to buy high end crafted gear/augments/mods. However, for an established max level player that already built up good gear through play or for players who aren't in a hurry to skip content this advantage is negligible and there is no pressure on them to spend beyond the monthly subscription fee.
There are SO many games to choose from ... it is actually quite difficult to build a game fun enough to attract a big enough haystack to find those few whales.
Additionally, the point of the diatribe is that the quality of the game has become less relevant than the metrics/statistics being used to "game" the players. What it means is that most games don't have to be good, they simply have to be "good enough".
When "whale chasing" you're looking at a few different things. One of the factors is that whales are indeed more picky. They need more reason to stay, but that is not necessarily in the form of game content. Incentivizing players to stick around in the games with some regularity of rewards and return benefits helps to draw community, and that is a strong selling point for whales in general.
So there is some validity to your comment, in that it is seldom that a game is really beneficially designed to support whales. There are some examples of how that has changed or is changing though.
EDIT: I should put the qualifier that I am largely referring to western gaming, as asian games have had alot of this figured out for quite a while.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
In fact, if you are not better than your competition, why would anyone play your game? If they are all free, wouldn't players choose the highest quality one?
And without a lot of players, how are you going to find the whales?
It is not mutually exclusive to be "better than your competition" and "using metrics and statistics". In fact, "good" is nothing but statistically, more players like game A than game B. Otherwise, we are just talking about personal preferences, and there is no universal "good" or "bad".
And no, "good" is not "more players like game A than game B". You are referring to monetary success, not game quality. To which I restate that while game quality certainly contributes to success, it is not mandatory if you design your game to pick at certain psychological factors reminiscent to addiction instead. It doesn't matter what your competition is like or how good the game itself is, if their model doesn't trigger as many impulses for the player to invest themselves in the title.
Point in case, quote from the flippfly guys Forest and Aaron Filippo (2012).
"For every F2P success story like Temple Run, there is a Gasketball or a Punch Quest or a Monkey Drum. The problem is – these financial disasters are often great games..."
This isn't a comment on it being "good" or "bad" or personal preferences, but marketing and monetization strategy as it applies to within the game itself. A very quantifiable subject.
As for "And without a lot of players, how are you going to find the whales?" I don't even know where you're going with that one, but it seems like you probably agree with me that to make a game targeting the "whale" demographic, you're looking at a larger/more fleshed out title that gives sufficient incentive for a whale to invest into it. That itself is as I stated previously one of the few conditions where a game's quality takes proper relevance, as whales are slower to invest in games then most (~18+ days as opposed to a few days or less).
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
More importantly, I find subscription games to be so much more immersive than the in your face money roadblocks common in free to play games.
Both game quality *and* statistics are mandatory.
You can design your game to pick at certain psychological factors all your want ... if no one plays it (i.e. fun .... and that is quality) ... you are not going to get anywhere.
To build a good mouse trap, you need an alluring piece of cheese ... game quality is that cheese. Few is going to give a ugly, unpolished game with no fun combat (or whatever gameplay you are looking for), more than 10-15 min of time ... and that is not enough to find and entice the whales.