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New Classes - Discussion
Adamantine
Member RarePosts: 5,094
Right now theres very, very few known about the new classes, just a short text to each, but lets analyze.
When the kickstarter run, there have been 7 to 11 classes, 7 of which had 2 subclasses each (the others probably would have gotten their own), now there are 12.
The old classes have been:
1. Cleric: Lawful divine spellcasters, classic healers with turn undead etc, blunt weapons
1.1. Battle Cleric: Tank Healer
1.2. Curate: Robe Healer
2. Dark Knight: Evil necromatic Tank, cutting weapons
2.1. Void Master: Shadow summoner, Stealth, Darkness
2.2. Dread Master: Fear, Poison, Animate Dead, Lifeleech
3. Crusader: Goodhearted Tank, Shield specialist, Squire (summon?!?)
3.1. Cavalier: Damage dealer, dual wielder
3.2. Paladin: Cleric-like, can possibly specialize into spellcasting instead weapon useage
4. Rogue: evasion, stealth, infiltration, pickpocket, traps
4.1. Assassin - damage dealer, poison, cutting weapons
4.2. Planestalker - especially good at stealth, planar weapons
5. Enchanter: crowd control magic, also buffing
5.1. Beguiler: stun specialist, can make opponents explode
5.2. Phantasmist: charm specialist
6. Wizard: Magic specialist, Teleport/Snare/Root/Blink, Magic reflect/neutralize/change, direct damage
6.1. Frenzy: spike damage
6.2. Aspect: battle mage, melee, shapeshifting abilities, buffs allies
7. Shaman: Healer, Buffer, Support
7.1. Ritualist: Pet class (spirits), additional healing
7.2. Spirit Warden: Group buffer, advanced melee capabilities
Advanced class goals:
8. Druid - 1,000,000 $
9. Ranger - 1,250,000 $
10. Bard - 1,500,000 $
11. Monk - 1,750,00 $
The new class selection, only with a very short description:
Cleric - "In the Frail Age, communion with Celestials is unheard of. The Cleric must bind to ancient Tomes containing the last vestiges of light from when the Celestials had drawn near."
Crusader - "Once a Cleric, the Crusader has a call transcending the customs of the Cleric Order. Led by her convictions, she sets off to carry out her own righteous judgment."
Warrior - "The Warrior seemingly defies limits of physical strength, ability and resilience. However, not content with fortitude alone, he also refines his mind, becoming a master strategist in battle."
Dire Lord - "Legends speak of Dire Lords capable of mastering the crippling power of fear, with some able to manipulate the ‘essence’ of living things--even their very blood."
Ranger - "In untamed regions, the Ranger is a versatile and ferocious warrior, united with the land and animals he communes with."
Rogue - "The treacherous Rogue is far more than a trickster. With her daggers, she is a ruinous force that smiles at the dark places and unravels her enemies with terrifying efficiency."
Monk - "Through longstanding discipline and unwavering obedience to ancient teachings, the Monk wields their mind and body as a devastating, holistic weapon against their enemies."
Summoner - "The Summoner has developed a powerful arcane command to conjure sustenance, tools, barricades, weaponry, even fantastic creatures of incredible strength - all of this at her whim."
Enchanter - "Through a single word, the Enchanter can turn the intent of an enemy and break even the strongest of wills into submission."
Wizard - "While many Wizards are driven mad through study of the arcane, those who emerge stable under the weight of this power wield a force barely imaginable in awe and effect."
Druid - "Amidst the fragmented realms, the wild-eyed Druid embraces the diverse, natural world, peering into its mysteries. Druids are revered as visionaries who can see into the heart of Terminus."
Shaman - "It is rumored that Shaman live in every age at once. Thus, Shamans know the ancestry of any friend or foe, wielding this knowledge to great benefit, or baneful cost."
Sorted by task, this seems to be:
Warrior
Crusader
Dire Lord
Rogue
Ranger
Monk
Cleric
Shaman
Druid (but could possibly be a healer instead ?! I've been told EQ Druids have been healers. Or do I confuse with WoW ?!?)
Wizard
Enchanter
Summoner
EverQuest classes according to https://www.everquest.com/classes :
Warrior
Rogue
Monk
Berserker
Cleric
Druid
Shaman
Magician
Enchanter
Necromancer
Bard
Beastlord
Paladin
(Last group is Hybrids)
When the kickstarter run, there have been 7 to 11 classes, 7 of which had 2 subclasses each (the others probably would have gotten their own), now there are 12.
The old classes have been:
1. Cleric: Lawful divine spellcasters, classic healers with turn undead etc, blunt weapons
1.1. Battle Cleric: Tank Healer
1.2. Curate: Robe Healer
2. Dark Knight: Evil necromatic Tank, cutting weapons
2.1. Void Master: Shadow summoner, Stealth, Darkness
2.2. Dread Master: Fear, Poison, Animate Dead, Lifeleech
3. Crusader: Goodhearted Tank, Shield specialist, Squire (summon?!?)
3.1. Cavalier: Damage dealer, dual wielder
3.2. Paladin: Cleric-like, can possibly specialize into spellcasting instead weapon useage
4. Rogue: evasion, stealth, infiltration, pickpocket, traps
4.1. Assassin - damage dealer, poison, cutting weapons
4.2. Planestalker - especially good at stealth, planar weapons
5. Enchanter: crowd control magic, also buffing
5.1. Beguiler: stun specialist, can make opponents explode
5.2. Phantasmist: charm specialist
6. Wizard: Magic specialist, Teleport/Snare/Root/Blink, Magic reflect/neutralize/change, direct damage
6.1. Frenzy: spike damage
6.2. Aspect: battle mage, melee, shapeshifting abilities, buffs allies
7. Shaman: Healer, Buffer, Support
7.1. Ritualist: Pet class (spirits), additional healing
7.2. Spirit Warden: Group buffer, advanced melee capabilities
Advanced class goals:
8. Druid - 1,000,000 $
9. Ranger - 1,250,000 $
10. Bard - 1,500,000 $
11. Monk - 1,750,00 $
The new class selection, only with a very short description:
Cleric - "In the Frail Age, communion with Celestials is unheard of. The Cleric must bind to ancient Tomes containing the last vestiges of light from when the Celestials had drawn near."
Crusader - "Once a Cleric, the Crusader has a call transcending the customs of the Cleric Order. Led by her convictions, she sets off to carry out her own righteous judgment."
Warrior - "The Warrior seemingly defies limits of physical strength, ability and resilience. However, not content with fortitude alone, he also refines his mind, becoming a master strategist in battle."
Dire Lord - "Legends speak of Dire Lords capable of mastering the crippling power of fear, with some able to manipulate the ‘essence’ of living things--even their very blood."
Ranger - "In untamed regions, the Ranger is a versatile and ferocious warrior, united with the land and animals he communes with."
Rogue - "The treacherous Rogue is far more than a trickster. With her daggers, she is a ruinous force that smiles at the dark places and unravels her enemies with terrifying efficiency."
Monk - "Through longstanding discipline and unwavering obedience to ancient teachings, the Monk wields their mind and body as a devastating, holistic weapon against their enemies."
Summoner - "The Summoner has developed a powerful arcane command to conjure sustenance, tools, barricades, weaponry, even fantastic creatures of incredible strength - all of this at her whim."
Enchanter - "Through a single word, the Enchanter can turn the intent of an enemy and break even the strongest of wills into submission."
Wizard - "While many Wizards are driven mad through study of the arcane, those who emerge stable under the weight of this power wield a force barely imaginable in awe and effect."
Druid - "Amidst the fragmented realms, the wild-eyed Druid embraces the diverse, natural world, peering into its mysteries. Druids are revered as visionaries who can see into the heart of Terminus."
Shaman - "It is rumored that Shaman live in every age at once. Thus, Shamans know the ancestry of any friend or foe, wielding this knowledge to great benefit, or baneful cost."
Sorted by task, this seems to be:
Warrior
Crusader
Dire Lord
Rogue
Ranger
Monk
Cleric
Shaman
Druid (but could possibly be a healer instead ?! I've been told EQ Druids have been healers. Or do I confuse with WoW ?!?)
Wizard
Enchanter
Summoner
EverQuest classes according to https://www.everquest.com/classes :
Warrior
Rogue
Monk
Berserker
Cleric
Druid
Shaman
Magician
Enchanter
Necromancer
Bard
Beastlord
Paladin
(Last group is Hybrids)
Comments
As an ex-Vanguard-player, the thing I notice first: This is the list of classes of Vanguard, again sorted by group task:
Warrior
Paladin - Crusader, most likely, even the short description strongly implies it.
Dread Knight - Dire Lord ? I think. The description is extremely vague, but talks of fear and blood manipulation (lifetap?!?).
(Inquisitor - never saw the light of day)
Rogue
Ranger
Monk
Bard - missing! (But appeared in the original list of advanced goals)
(Berserker - never saw the light of day)
Cleric
Shaman
Disciple - missing!
Blood Mage - missing!
Sorcerer - Wizard, obviously
Druid
Psionicist - Enchanter, obviously
Necromancer - missing! But: this was the Vanguard pet class, and we have "Summoner" now.
And the list of overpowered classes in Vanguard was:
- Disciple. Basically the god mode. Great defenses, massive targeted healing (thanks to Jin basically endless), and even some decent dps, and fake death. Could operate as tank on low levels, could handle five dot mobs solo on maxlevel, and that in bad gear.
- Necromancer was also very overpowered. Great dps on tougher mobs thanks to lots of damage over time spells, could regen mana easily, fake death, a quite good pet, could raise dead (even in battle, if fake death worked properly and nothing got you back into battle - this didnt worked during raids, of course), could fear and snare, and had two really powerful (almost required, really) raid buffs (meat and orb).
- Dread Knight. In bad gear - useless. In great gear - mass carnage, at lower levels one could solo dungeons.
- Bard. Top geared they could raise the dps output of their group by 60%. Also a top dps class by themselves. Not that impressive solo though, since its a pure kiter class and not much ranged damage. But in groups definitely overpowered.
So the only OP Vanguard class which still made it is Dread Knight ! As Dire Lord. Dread Knight was only good in good gear, though.
And the only class thats not on this list that wasnt OP is Blood Mage. Really loved that concept, by the way.
I think doing a Bard class that wouldnt be so overpowered should be easy, though. Basically dont ever give straight bonusses, just things like additional damage.
Other than that, what bugs me is that there are apparently only two healer classes now. That doesnt bode too well. But maybe Druid is more of a full featured healer this time around ?!? That would make sense, three classes per group task, and AFAIK in EQ, Druid indeed was a healer. I never played EQ myself, though, so this info might be incorrect.
As a healer player (until I turned Dread Knight/Tank), I have to say:
- Cleric was for the longest time my main, but in the end really bored me. Yes the best standard buffs, the best standard heals, but really everybody had good heals and most, except Disciple, had good buffs, including really handy ones like runspeed, and there was very little variance if at all for the gameplay, there was hardly any damage output, and the Cleric easily ran out of mana too.
- Shaman was really weird. I tried Phoenix and I had NO defenses (wearing medium, I got 10%, like a robe wearer), I had NO damage, I couldnt kite well at all (much worse than for example on a ranger), because most of my spells had cast times and would slow me down, thats true for the fire spells you got as Phoenix shaman too, and finally and thats the thing I never understood I had NO DEAGGRO SKILL AT ALL. Every other healer got a deaggro and every damage dealer got a deaggro and I heard one of the other two specs for Shaman (I think it was Wolf) got a deaggro, but not Phoenix. Why ??!?
- Blood Mage was really, really fun. So many possibilities ! Soloing was a bit weird because Blood Mage is the only mage that cant kite - basically you have to kill the mob with hitpoint absorption spells, while the mob stands in front of you, hitting you hard. But Blood Mage had hitpoint self buffs and as long as the mob didnt have silence (amazing how quickly you would be dead after a silence), it was no problem. Had to keep discipline to keep mana up, though.
- Disciple was a bit dull, too. Insanely strong, yes, but not much variance in gameplay. Basically you had to repeat your sequences of abilties to get your effects. Not many buffs, not many interesting abilities. The only challenge was not getting aggro all the time in groups. This was ultimately my lowest level healer, though, only 28, so I dont know as much about that class as about the others.
In the sum, there was never a lack of healers in Vanguard, because they have been so varied and fun.
Summary: All in all I'm very happy with this list, vague as it is. Deducing from the original kickstarter class list, and the EverQuest and Vanguard class lists, it seems that Pantheon will get all Vanguard classes, minus the overpowered ones.
My main issue is the lack of variance for the healers. In Vanguard there never was a shortage of healers, simply because they have been so fun and most of them have been really good solists (except the Phoenix Shaman), too. Really would love to see the Blood Mage back !
And of course it would be nice to get Bard back in a non-overpowerd version.
The goal should be to have unique classes that each bring their own set of tools and are dependent on the other classes to fill in the tools they lack. If too many classes have too many similar tools, you end with no class interdependence which is the entire point of a social game such as this.
While I enjoyed Vanguard and the interesting abilities classes had, I would like to see them hold to a more strict differentiation between classes as they did in EQ (though with the interesting abilities and tools that vanguard brought, though less spamy).
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
I love Rogues for solo play.
I love healing for group play, and that's why I play mmos for group play.
I hate being a tank ( I respect them, just can't be one ).
1) There usually boring classes to me.
2) Anyone that plays one should know the dungeon or content well, however their are naturals at it. Great for them, I'm just not one.
3) I'm not good at pressure when I have someone in my group busting my balls.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Frankly the EQ classes are simply more primitive and more unbalanced.
I havent played EQ myself, but I met a lot of ex-players of EQ in Vanguard, and they all told me that Magician and Necromancer (not 100% sure, but I think Druid and Enchanter, too ?) could solo in EQ. So what exactly are these "tools they are missing" ?
And in the beginning of Vanguard, people told me to sit down on the Cleric, to fasten mana regeneration. It did nothing at all to mana regeneration, by the way; Cleric needs to execute their manatap melee attack to fasten mana regen. But thats what people expected you from EQ - the healer has to sit down so he can regen mana faster.
I havent played EQ, but I played Lineage 2 a bit and thats exactly what I had to do in L2 on my healer - sit down to get mana back faster. Thats very passive and dull. As is by the way watching health bars all the time. Also in L2, once my healer had a certain level, if I couldnt get a group I would sign off and reenter on a mage, since my healer would take ages to kill a light green undead mob and would be killed by even gray mobs (that wouldnt give xp or items) if they arent undead.
Also I'm sorry, but I am no teenager, I have a reallife job etc, so I wont be able to attend to Pantheon in any sort of regular way. So I wont be able to join these elite guilds, I wont be able to have a regular group, or anything like that. I will join one of these lazy casual guilds and I wont be able to get a guild group every time I have time to play.
So yes, the class design of Vanguard was vastly superior.
The Vanguard Necromancer was hopelessly OP, though.
Tons of damage over time spells accumulating into really huge numbers on tough mobs, pet class, fear, snare, lifetap, fake death, transform mob into undead, ...
What I could think of would be giving Necromancer a couple subclasses which allow to specialize into some of theses fields. But all at the same time ?
Monks as healers isnt a concept unique to Vanguard - WoWo has it, GW1 has it.
And yes playing a Disciple was big fun, but then again I could solo things I couldnt solo with any other character, and it was not even hard. Thats why I call Disciple the "godmode" of Vanguard.
Actually that Vanguard class was named "Dread Knight".
There will be downtime in Pantheon, but I doubt it will be as long as EQ. Classes in Pantheon will also have some solo capabilities, so you won't have to worry too much about playing a lot every day in order to get a group and progress. That said, Pantheon will not be for everyone. Visionary Realms seeks to create an MMO that is more virtual world than just game. That will mean realism, survival and other elements that promote immersion.
EQ classes were not designed for soloing. EQ had constant emergent play (ie game mechanics being used in a way the developers did not think or intend). Some classes were able to solo by applying interesting solutions to the environment. For instance, Feign Death Pulling was never an intended mechanic, just something people figured out through play.
The point is, EQ classes were balanced not between each other as we see in many games today with "tit for tat" balancing between classes (ie equal DPS, healing, etc...) but rather balanced to the content itself. Each class was designed with a basic set of tools to achieve certain roles within "Group" play. Classes were not designed so they could be self sufficient while adventuring alone, rather they were designed to bring useful tools to the group. The classes that could heal ranged in ability depending on the spells. A cleric had long, slow casting, but power heals (complete heal) while the druid had short light direct heals and stacked regeneration. A shaman had similar to a druid, but relied on their mob slowing spells to make things work. Then there were support roles for healing with the bard and paladin and even the necromancer had some light healing tricks up their sleeve.
Healing was possible for several classes, but each was limited depending on the types of classes they were supporting. For instance, a monk was "originally" an light avoidance tank/DPS class. The damage they took was very spikey and clerics were less efficient in healing them, but a Druid with their regens, and quick casting light heals were well equipped for such. the point is, classes were designed around bringing unique skills to the group, not that of balancing each class to each other or that of making sure they could solo in the game.
Some classes could solo, some couldn't, but since it was not a soloing game, it wasn't an issue. If people wanted to solo, the picked a class that could achieve that, but with each choice there were trade offs.
EQs combat was slow, endurance based combat. Killing the average mob took time. Managing mana was key to survival and many times a fight could last several minutes (even 20-30 mins if you got some adds and pops). Boss fights took a while, raid boss fights even longer (some raid bosses could take 1-2 hours or more of straight battle).
As for the "but I am no teenager, I have a reallife job etc", well... most of my guild were all professionals (IT directors, Network Engineers, Programmers, Analysts, etc...) most of us worked many hours pulling 50-60 hours a week and on call as well. Most of the people I played with were in their late 20-30's and had families. So we all had "real lives" as well, we just played EQ as a hobby, we were gamers and we made time for the games we played, no different than those who put aside time for baseball leagues or other recreational activities. We also planned out time accordingly, meeting up in game at those planned days and times to play.
Thing that you have to do is recognize what time you have and find people who are in the same frame of play expectancy and just play accordingly. My friends and I were never top raid guilds, we always lagged behind an expansion or two in content (impossible to catch contested raid mobs when you are at work), so we did what we could when we could. We still had fun, played according to our time allotment, etc...
You can go two routes with the classes you pick due to your lack of time. You can pick a class that is likely able to solo (and even though they say they are not making a class for such, there will be one that ends up doing it well) or pick a needed class. I played with people in your very same position and they were able to do just fine with lack of time. If you pick a hot sought after class (usually healer, puller, CC, or some supports) then it won't take long to have a list of friends that send you invites the moment you log in. If you pick a good solo class, you can still find groups (depends on the reputation you build for yourself), but you will be able to play on your own terms when you want.
Not every DPS was even. And i still don't get why we suddenly need that nowadays.
Necromancers did a shitload of damage over time, but sucked in short fights when wizards just blew up bosses before their mana was dry. Both had their moments and this applied to about every class.
Sure you can argue that at ONE point in THAT expansion class X was useless or OP. That always happens even if you try and even out everything. That does not change my point tho.
Forced balance just spells boring and generic classes. Bring out the inbalance in favor of glory moments for every class. Let them differ GREATLY and put balance as an afterthought.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Some classes are going to be poor in some situations, great in others, etc... these are the types of content and solutions you want in the game system. You want the players to look at the encounter itself, and look at all the tools that each class may have and think of clever ways to apply those tools in various situations.
My experiences were being able to do content with odd class makeups, under geared and undermanned because we kept looking for different ways to apply solutions with the tools we have. EQ had one of the most emergent game play systems out there. People came up with all kinds of approaches to a given situation because classes were not designed to be balanced 1 for 1 like they or today. The more balance, the more limited the system becomes, the more common every solution becomes and the more mundane.
I think Bard is indeed the one class thats missed the most. Just dont make them overpowered this time around. I would say give them at most a 20% flat increase of overall group damage.
My personal top pick for the secret class would be Necromancer, as I think thats the class most missed.
Blood Mage is a close second.
Inquisitor or Berserker or a completely new class nobody ever did before would be great, too.
Aside from that, I really don't care how well they do as long as each class brings something useful to the table. Fastest way to end up with a garbage game is to start balancing class to class.
Warriors and Rogues got passive abilities that raised group damage by 10%. Sorcerers could maintain a group buff that would keep spell damage raised by 10%.
And Bards could give a group a flat 60% bonus in damage. Plus all kinds of other bonuses on top.
So, unsurprisingly, yes, no matter your personal taste - your optimal group would always have to contain a bard. While you could pick between Warrior, Paladin and Dread Knight for your tanks and between Cleric, Shaman, Disciple and Blood Mage for your healers, the Bard was the mandatory class.
Besides, Ranger and Sorcerer started with ranged AoE attacks. IIRC both got nerfed later, to 6 opponents max.
Dread Knight had two AoE attacks with their twohanded weapon. One was pure damage, that one got never nerfed. The other was the lifetap, that too got nerfed to 6 opponents maximum.
The last class I know of with AoE attack was the Cleric, who got some kind of Blades spell that would damage mobs around them. That attracted a lot of unwanted aggro, though.
From http://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/faqs/#q10 :
Well OK then its just a quaternity.
My guess would then be:
Tank:
Warrior
Paladin
Dire Lord
Healer:
Cleric
Shaman
Damage Dealer:
Rogue
Ranger
Monk
Wizard
Summoner
Crowd Control:
Enchanter
Druid is again the wildcard, not sure in what spot they belong - Healer, Damage Dealer, or Crowd Control ?
If thats true, we would have a game that forces every group to have an Enchanter ... or a Bard, once we get them.
And a Cleric, or Shaman.
And a Warrior, or Paladin, or Dire Lord.
Nothing bad about that at all.
Also: not even EQ forced CC on you. If the Tank / Healer combo as good enough and the group had a good puller.... noone needed crowd control. If your Tank sucked a good crowd control was mandatory.
This design is EXACTLY what made EQ fun for me. There was an optimal group, but depending on content that group would change. And depending on your team some roles could become more or less important. Some groups even replaced healers and Tanks, or did not take any DDs... all depending on the content you want to do.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
I will use an example from FFXI.We had a Ninja tank or a Plate armor Paladin Tank.Huge distinct differences and the type of mob you fought determined which would be better.It added choice and variety to the game.
Then having played the simple plate armor design,i felt no real difference between needing a Shadowknight or a Paladin.Also in Everquest it was always about spamming your very fast cooldowns and nothing had long enough effects,like 10 second effects then have to spam the cycle again.
Also the need for a CC specific class just reiterates another bad design from EQ and that having the same AI tied to several mobs.I prefer one controlled battle,i don't like -6 Bears all attacking at the same time and even that idea was done FAKE because they made each of the 3-6 weaker than 1 would be.
Point being it looks a lot like they are just recreating another EQ game,that idea is not all bad as long as you are improving on weak ideas and not just straight up copying them.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
What does, imo, need to be monitored are classes that are getting wholesale passed over for groups due to a gamewide perception that the class is weak/less useful. That doesn't mean every class has to do the same dps, or whatever their principal role may be, but they should have some meritorious reason for being in a group that makes them valuable.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests