Have to disagree. Majority were gamers who played single player RPGs. Single player RPG games have been around since the early 1980s, maybe longer.
It's probably both, I played single player RPG prior to my first MMO experience (EQ), but there were a number of DnD players too.
All I knew prior to EQ were games like Shining Force, Suikoden, Phantasy Star, Landstalker. I played every JRPG I could get my hand on, but DnD didn't interest me, even though I loved playing EQ.
The thing is the games I played early on didn't ask me to do that. In fact most early games weren't quest driven themeparks. They were attempts to mirror open world sandbox.
Have to disagree. Majority were gamers who played single player RPGs. Single player RPG games have been around since the early 1980s, maybe longer.
It's probably both, I played single player RPG prior to my first MMO experience (EQ), but there were a number of DnD players too.
All I knew prior to EQ were games like Shining Force, Suikoden, Landstalker. I played every JRPG I could get my hand on, but DnD didn't interest me, even though I loved playing EQ.
Ever get to play the SSI games or just primarily JRPGs? Loved Shining Force, Phantasy Star, etc but loved Eye of the Beholder, Bards Tale, etc as much.
I think people often fail to realize the early audiences for most mmorpgs were in fact the players or pnprpgs/ttrpgs(pen and paper or table top depending on your prefered choice of title, either way same thing).
Have to disagree. Majority were gamers who played single player RPGs. Single player RPG games have been around since the early 1980s, maybe longer.
When tech allowed gamers to play online with/against each other a huge amount of them moved to the first MMOs released.
I dont't disagree but instead ask you what population do you think made up the largest percentage of the people who played those early crpgs?
From the early crpgs, couldn't tell you. The majority of people I spoke to in the early MMORPGs had a background in single play RPG. A lot didn't even do pnp or tt. Which is totally anecdotal.
The term MMORPG was coined in 1997, so you have had a plethora, well over a decade of single player RPGs.
Ever get to play the SSI games or just primarily JRPGs? Loved Shining Force, Phantasy Star, etc but loved Eye of the Beholder, Bards Tale, etc as much.
Loved Eye of the Beholder, Hired Guns was a fav aswell on the Amiga.
Tedious is relative though. Yes EQ / Lineage (I'm sure there were more) could be considered extremely grindy on the surface.
But the fun came form the community, when you're talking to a group, laughing in server (/general) chat, or talking in guild....it doesn't really matter.
Those older MMO weren't action MMO where you were wacking away at keys, you had time to chatter most of the time.
I find running from Quest to Quest NPC more tedious than grinding mobs and talking to people.
I think people often fail to realize the early audiences for most mmorpgs were in fact the players or pnprpgs/ttrpgs(pen and paper or table top depending on your prefered choice of title, either way same thing).
Have to disagree. Majority were gamers who played single player RPGs. Single player RPG games have been around since the early 1980s, maybe longer.
When tech allowed gamers to play online with/against each other a huge amount of them moved to the first MMOs released.
I dont't disagree but instead ask you what population do you think made up the largest percentage of the people who played those early crpgs?
From the early crpgs, couldn't tell you. The majority of people I spoke to in the early MMORPGs had a background in single play RPG. A lot didn't even do pnp or tt. Which is totally anecdotal.
The term MMORPG was coined in 1997, so you have had a plethora, well over a decade of single player RPGs.
My experiences of course are also anecdotal, but I was able to converse with nearly everyone I socialized with about pnprpgs and crpgs. As always our own experiences vary and color our opinions.
On the subject of table top games, I loved painting Warhammer figures. But a lot of my friends thought that was the tedious part and just sprayed them all one colour.
For me though that's where the challenge was, where was the challenge in rolling a bunch of dice.
Also, popped into Games Workshop a couple of months back for nostalgia's sake and we talked about the death of the MMORPG Age of Reckoning. I asked what they thought was wrong with it. Most said it wasn't designed with the tabletop gamer in mind. They enjoy building up/creating an army, not a single character.
And I see their point, if you like playing Warhammer I wouldn't recommended the MMO as it's not designed to be played like a table top game. Just like PnPRPG. I like SP/MMORPGs. Not into PnP.
Was EQ actually hard or just excessively tedious and inconvenient? The latter two aren't really difficulty, they're just tedium/inconvenience.
While I never played EQ, I played a lot of early MMORPGs and while they were really tedious, repetitive, and inconvenient, I don't really consider any of them particularly hard games. The amount of skill required was generally pretty light, so they were relatively easy.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
MMO's were never hard. They were way more time consuming and tedious.
Content designed to waste my time is not hard. It simply does not respect my time and appeals to people with no responsibility.
So glad companies realized not everyone enjoys having their time wasted. I wonder if the people about the lack of difficult content ever played aion.
Games are supposed to be entertaining, making you want to spend more time playing because its fun. Of course not everyone likes the same kind of things, and no single game really encompasses all types of game play. If the game you are playing is tedious, so much so that you resent the activity your taking part in and you feel your time is being wasted, then your probably playing the wrong game, its not necessarily a problem with the game, or even bad game design, which is why choosing a game based on its apparent popularity, or hype, can lead to disappointment, hype isn't a true indication of a games quality, it isn't real.
Bottom line, if its not entertaining, then why are you playing? Just accept that its not your type of game and move on.
I would ask to those who say EQ was easy how much of the content did they complete. Especially how many of the dungeons did they complete at a level that would have been appropriate for completing those dungeons? I'm willing to bet there would be a much lesser amount of people who completed those dungeons and I don't believe it was due to time constraints.
Was EQ actually hard or just excessively tedious and inconvenient? The latter two aren't really difficulty, they're just tedium/inconvenience.
While I never played EQ, I played a lot of early MMORPGs and while they were really tedious, repetitive, and inconvenient, I don't really consider any of them particularly hard games. The amount of skill required was generally pretty light, so they were relatively easy.
Think it was a bit of both considering it was a group focused mmo. On top of that the game had a lot of layers, it wasn't as straight forward as that. IMO you really had to know your class in solo and group play, it was also skill based as well.
This one is fairly simple. Mass appeal. The masses prefer a more relaxed game.
EQ was pretty relaxed. Arguably too relaxed, what with the constant need to take breaks from actually playing.
EQ's design decisions in this regard were little more than a mechanism to extend the life expectancy of the content - not an attempt to appeal to some imaginary "higher caliber" of player. First and foremost, it was a business decision.
Some people decided to wear their willingness to endure that model as some sort of badge of honor, and now we have threads like this.
This one is fairly simple. Mass appeal. The masses prefer a more relaxed game.
EQ was pretty relaxed. Arguably too relaxed, what with the constant need to take breaks from actually playing.
EQ's design decisions in this regard were little more than a mechanism to extend the life expectancy of the content - not an attempt to appeal to some imaginary "higher caliber" of player. First and foremost, it was a business decision.
Some people decided to wear their willingness to endure that model as some sort of badge of honor, and now we have threads like this.
EQ talks to the specifc. MMOs is a much more general question. The genre went to a more relaxed, less 'harsh' type. This has resulted in the huge populations of WoW and the like. As far as a specific game is concerned, you would have to look at a lot of things.
I wonder why WoW happened, and why it happened so well. Hmmm....
That's easy, a majority of the gaming population lack patience, perseverance, and persistence, so modern games are designed to allow for their shortcomings.
Hey, when you are as great as I am, it's hard to be humble...so I'm not.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Tedious is relative though. Yes EQ / Lineage (I'm sure there were more) could be considered extremely grindy on the surface.
But the fun came form the community, when you're talking to a group, laughing in server (/general) chat, or talking in guild....it doesn't really matter.
Those older MMO weren't action MMO where you were wacking away at keys, you had time to chatter most of the time.
I find running from Quest to Quest NPC more tedious than grinding mobs and talking to people.
I don't think most people are looking for a glorified chat room in games anymore. I know I'm certainly not. There is no novelty to online interaction anymore and in fact a lot of people are kind of sick of things like Facebook and Twitter and the last thing they want to do is be forced to interact with a bunch of strangers in their game time especially whne a lot of the population of MMOs are kind of mouthbreathers.
I remember the era when just talking to people on the internet seemed cool but that's gone forevever I think. Games need to provide compellinfg gameplay now. Not just excuses to socialize.
EQ talks to the specifc. MMOs is a much more general question. The genre went to a more relaxed, less 'harsh' type. This has resulted in the huge populations of WoW and the like. As far as a specific game is concerned, you would have to look at a lot of things.
The genre was never particularly harsh. Of the commercially noteworthy G1 games, Pre-Trammel UO was really the only one that veered remotely toward "harsh".
There are really good points on both sides of the argument here, as there usually are. All I can say is that the main thing I wish to have back from pre WoW games (and even vanilla WoW did this to an extent) are mechanics that force you to rely on making friends and connections in the game as well as mechanics that offer the occasional serious amount of risk vs reward. I don't care how those things are implemented, it doesn't have to be through tedious grinding etc, but those are some of the only reasons to be playing massively multiplayer role playing games, at least in my opinion. As has been said a million times, there are countless single player games with better graphics and stories. Give me a game that I can't solo through please.
Originally posted by Scagweed22 is it the graphics? the repetativenesses? i mean what is the point? you could be so much more productive in real life Real life brings repetition and pointlessness too. The only thing real life offers is Great graphics. Its kinda expensive too and way to dependent on the cash shop. Totally pay to win as well. No thank you. Ill stick to my games.
The thing is the games I played early on didn't ask me to do that. In fact most early games weren't quest driven themeparks. They were attempts to mirror open world sandbox.
Oh? And which games were these?
Ultima Online (which I think still has a sub system in place after all these years)..completely open world, no leveling , skill based system with pvp as end game...I mean come on, What is harder to beat now a days (and same with back then) an individual person or a created "AI"....And before you start with the "gank fest" comments..there were plenty of 1 v 1 fights to be had back then...Oh and did I mention the player made weapons that were better than loot weapons you found on npc's? Well..at least until they started introducing the loot weapons afterwards..still..there ya go.
Comments
All I knew prior to EQ were games like Shining Force, Suikoden, Phantasy Star, Landstalker. I played every JRPG I could get my hand on, but DnD didn't interest me, even though I loved playing EQ.
Loved Shining Force, Phantasy Star, etc but loved Eye of the Beholder, Bards Tale, etc as much.
The first time I read about Everquest was in Inquest, it was the magazine about MTG trading cards. (/nerd off)
The term MMORPG was coined in 1997, so you have had a plethora, well over a decade of single player RPGs.
Loved Eye of the Beholder, Hired Guns was a fav aswell on the Amiga.
So glad companies realized not everyone enjoys having their time wasted. I wonder if the people about the lack of difficult content ever played aion.
But the fun came form the community, when you're talking to a group, laughing in server (/general) chat, or talking in guild....it doesn't really matter.
Those older MMO weren't action MMO where you were wacking away at keys, you had time to chatter most of the time.
I find running from Quest to Quest NPC more tedious than grinding mobs and talking to people.
As always our own experiences vary and color our opinions.
On the subject of table top games, I loved painting Warhammer figures. But a lot of my friends thought that was the tedious part and just sprayed them all one colour.
For me though that's where the challenge was, where was the challenge in rolling a bunch of dice.
Also, popped into Games Workshop a couple of months back for nostalgia's sake and we talked about the death of the MMORPG Age of Reckoning. I asked what they thought was wrong with it. Most said it wasn't designed with the tabletop gamer in mind. They enjoy building up/creating an army, not a single character.
And I see their point, if you like playing Warhammer I wouldn't recommended the MMO as it's not designed to be played like a table top game. Just like PnPRPG. I like SP/MMORPGs. Not into PnP.
While I never played EQ, I played a lot of early MMORPGs and while they were really tedious, repetitive, and inconvenient, I don't really consider any of them particularly hard games. The amount of skill required was generally pretty light, so they were relatively easy.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Of course not everyone likes the same kind of things, and no single game really encompasses all types of game play.
If the game you are playing is tedious, so much so that you resent the activity your taking part in and you feel your time is being wasted, then your probably playing the wrong game, its not necessarily a problem with the game, or even bad game design, which is why choosing a game based on its apparent popularity, or hype, can lead to disappointment, hype isn't a true indication of a games quality, it isn't real.
Bottom line, if its not entertaining, then why are you playing? Just accept that its not your type of game and move on.
Great Post!
I self identify as a monkey.
EQ's design decisions in this regard were little more than a mechanism to extend the life expectancy of the content - not an attempt to appeal to some imaginary "higher caliber" of player. First and foremost, it was a business decision.
Some people decided to wear their willingness to endure that model as some sort of badge of honor, and now we have threads like this.
I self identify as a monkey.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Hey, when you are as great as I am, it's hard to be humble...so I'm not.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I remember the era when just talking to people on the internet seemed cool but that's gone forevever I think. Games need to provide compellinfg gameplay now. Not just excuses to socialize.
Originally posted by Scagweed22
is it the graphics? the repetativenesses? i mean what is the point? you could be so much more productive in real life
Real life brings repetition and pointlessness too. The only thing real life offers is Great graphics. Its kinda expensive too and way to dependent on the cash shop. Totally pay to win as well. No thank you. Ill stick to my games.