lets get 100 people 20 of them would play a hardcore mmorpg 80 of them would play a casual mmorpg
My guess would be more like 5 / 95 ...
Just like the number of licks on a tootsie pop, the world may never know unless someone takes a chance and gives it a good college try.
The playerbases of UO, EVE, WOW (in the context of PvE vs PvP) and ArcheAge are some of the MMOs that have shown that it's been a pretty consistent 20/80 split for about a decade and a half now.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Tedium is subjective. Quest hubs are tedious and repetitious to me. Big vertical progression is tedious to me majority of the time. There are just certain tedious things that come along with gaming. Its about if you enjoy the repetition.
Which MMOs are challenging you more and in what ways, I'm curious to know.
They're not challenging me more as in they're more challenging. Tab target based combat, old and new are pretty much the same as far as challenge. It's just the leveling experience in the newer games is less tedious/challenging thanks to LFG tool/fast travel to dungeons.
Which MMOs are challenging you more and in what ways, I'm curious to know.
any e-sport MMO like LoL or WoT is challenging, because you can always find some players better than yourself.
PvP is always a hell of a lot more challenging than PvE.
Agreed, but dang man; I have a hard time considering MOBA's a mmo.
MOBAs are massive in terms of total online playerbase they are online games, so they are technically MMOs.
But yes matches themselves have small teams of players.
So Combat Arms is an MMO going by this "logic".
No, I'd rather use terminology that helps me understand what something is; FPS fits the bill just fine as does MOBA.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Well to answer to the title of your post : They became easy when they decided to make convenience go a bit too far.
It is 1 thing to give tools like Looking For Group for all types of instances the game offers and also portals, flying, etc. But iti s another to nerf also the game. IF you nerf everything to make people reach max level too fast and skip 90% of the game, you will get people that quits fast because they see everything too fast. Same thing with gear, if you give them loot's every time they log on and play a bit the game, then it takes no time to gear up at max level and they just re-roll another character and at one point got all of them and find the game boring, specially after playing the same content on all those characters.
Anyways, that is my view on this and that is why i always say bring back the vanilla way of playing this type of game. Because i like the convenience but not the nerf to the content that followed it also.
Which MMOs are challenging you more and in what ways, I'm curious to know.
They're not challenging me more as in they're more challenging. Tab target based combat, old and new are pretty much the same as far as challenge. It's just the leveling experience in the newer games is less tedious/challenging thanks to LFG tool/fast travel to dungeons.
Which MMOs are challenging you more and in what ways, I'm curious to know.
any e-sport MMO like LoL or WoT is challenging, because you can always find some players better than yourself.
PvP is always a hell of a lot more challenging than PvE.
Agreed, but dang man; I have a hard time considering MOBA's a mmo.
MOBAs are massive in terms of total online playerbase they are online games, so they are technically MMOs.
But yes matches themselves have small teams of players.
Technically they're not MMO's. Massivley Multiplayer, not Massive, Massivley. Exponentially bigger than multiplayer, as in, far more people concurrently logged in to the same game world/space/instance. LoL is not an MMO. WoT is not an MMO. If either of those are to be considered MMO's then so was counterstrike or team fortress because they had a massive audience.
LoL and WoT are very popular online multiplayer games but they are not Massively Multiplayer.
Well to answer to the title of your post : They became easy when they decided to make convenience go a bit too far.
wait ... how is convenience anything to do with challenge?
Look at D3 .. hard mode, ladders (going up to #1 in any of the ranking is extremely challenging) ... and the game is very convenient to play. One click and you are killing stuff.
Ditto for LoL ... extremely challenging if you want to go up the ranks ... but hey, one click and you are fighting.
Well to answer to the title of your post : They became easy when they decided to make convenience go a bit too far.
wait ... how is convenience anything to do with challenge?
Look at D3 .. hard mode, ladders (going up to #1 in any of the ranking is extremely challenging) ... and the game is very convenient to play. One click and you are killing stuff.
Ditto for LoL ... extremely challenging if you want to go up the ranks ... but hey, one click and you are fighting.
No, I'd rather use terminology that helps me understand what something is; FPS fits the bill just fine as does MOBA.
Logic has little to do with the broadening of MMO so that the genre can get more attention.
I have no problem using terminology that is common, as long as i know what it is.
Even this site classified MOBAs and ARPG as sub-genre of MMOs.
No, I'd rather use terminology that helps me understand what something is; FPS fits the bill just fine as does MOBA.
Logic has little to do with the broadening of MMO so that the genre can get more attention.
I have no problem using terminology that is common, as long as i know what it is.
Even this site classified MOBAs and ARPG as sub-genre of MMOs.
Actually I believe Bill refers to them as "MMO like"
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No, I'd rather use terminology that helps me understand what something is; FPS fits the bill just fine as does MOBA.
Logic has little to do with the broadening of MMO so that the genre can get more attention.
I have no problem using terminology that is common, as long as i know what it is.
Even this site classified MOBAs and ARPG as sub-genre of MMOs.
Actually I believe Bill refers to them as "MMO like"
You can believe what you want. They are listed under "MMORPG Gamelist - All MMO Games". If that is not classifying them as MMOs, what is?
And this is NOT the only site who does so. It is easy to find examples. Just google it.
Its simple , the kids/teens and 20 somethings from 2000-2008 either got full time jobs & or families and no longer have the time to commit to hardcore MMO's. There really is no secret conspiracy going on here. Game companys are aware of the fact they need to cater to the "casuals" which is most of the current player base. /Close thread
Which MMOs are challenging you more and in what ways, I'm curious to know.
They're not challenging me more as in they're more challenging. Tab target based combat, old and new are pretty much the same as far as challenge. It's just the leveling experience in the newer games is less tedious/challenging thanks to LFG tool/fast travel to dungeons.
Which MMOs are challenging you more and in what ways, I'm curious to know.
any e-sport MMO like LoL or WoT is challenging, because you can always find some players better than yourself.
PvP is always a hell of a lot more challenging than PvE.
Agreed, but dang man; I have a hard time considering MOBA's a mmo.
MOBAs are massive in terms of total online playerbase they are online games, so they are technically MMOs.
But yes matches themselves have small teams of players.
Those are not MMO anymore than Call of Duty or Battlefield is. FPS have nearly the same concept. Huge collective total online player base playing team matches.
Its simple , the kids/teens and 20 somethings from 2000-2008 either got full time jobs & or families and no longer have the time to commit to hardcore MMO's. There really is no secret conspiracy going on here. Game companys are aware of the fact they need to cater to the "casuals" which is most of the current player base. /Close thread
While I agree that convenience tools/systems were instituted for casuals that didn't mean the content had to be easy, stupidly easy in most cases. The end result does cater to the same crowd you mention but IMO has more to do with feeding into the ego of players to a hilarious degree. In most stories the main character, our self, doesn't lose in a fantasy story. What is missed in most MMOs IMO is the adversity heroes encounter before victory. It's part of good writing/storytelling and unfortunately is missed inmost MMOs.
No, I'd rather use terminology that helps me understand what something is; FPS fits the bill just fine as does MOBA.
Logic has little to do with the broadening of MMO so that the genre can get more attention.
I have no problem using terminology that is common, as long as i know what it is.
Even this site classified MOBAs and ARPG as sub-genre of MMOs.
I am thrilled that you know what it is but for those that do not...they might appreciate getting a little heads up as to what type of game they have in front of them.
This site (it's not the only one) really needs to get it's shit together in this respect but that doesn't change anything.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
No, I'd rather use terminology that helps me understand what something is; FPS fits the bill just fine as does MOBA.
Logic has little to do with the broadening of MMO so that the genre can get more attention.
I have no problem using terminology that is common, as long as i know what it is.
Even this site classified MOBAs and ARPG as sub-genre of MMOs.
I am thrilled that you know what it is but for those that do not...they might appreciate getting a little heads up as to what type of game they have in front of them.
This site (it's not the only one) really needs to get it's shit together in this respect but that doesn't change anything.
I highly doubt "those that do not" care because they can just download and play for 15 min. 99% MMOs are free (for the first 15 min) anyway.
The point is the websites want broader definition to help with readership, and most players don't care about "correct" definitions .. otherwise you will see a lot more outcry (aside from some here).
Logic has little to do with the broadening of MMO so that the genre can get more attention.
I have no problem using terminology that is common, as long as i know what it is.
Even this site classified MOBAs and ARPG as sub-genre of MMOs.
Are you admitting that what you're saying is completely illogical? ("Logic has little to do with...")
Because otherwise we're obligated to point out that what you're saying here is batshit crazy.
"MMO" isn't a genre for starters. It's a modifier to a genre with a clear meaning.
Red has meaning. It's a color. If you start calling green things "red" you're not actually giving red things more attention -- you're just calling green things "red".
So the idea that by calling all games MMOs "the genre can get more attention" is completely devoid of reason.
Nobody will know what "MMO" is if we apply it to every single multiplayer game. So use the terminology in its more logical way, because that's the only way everyone will know what it means.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The title should be changed to "When did MMO's become less deep and complex". Then you would have something more true to talk about.
Most early MMORPGs I tried were shallow and complicated (the worst possible design). Whereas later WOW expansions have been deep and relatively simple (a very good design.)
No early MMORPGs had combat remotely as deep as this (wow subtlety rogue rotation) and yet in spite of the strong evidence of modern MMORPG depth and the lack of evidence of early MMORPG depth, this thread persists with players who buy into the idea that modern games are "easy".
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The title should be changed to "When did MMO's become less deep and complex". Then you would have something more true to talk about.
Most early MMORPGs I tried were shallow and complicated (the worst possible design). Whereas later WOW expansions have been deep and relatively simple (a very good design.)
No early MMORPGs had combat remotely as deep as this (wow subtlety rogue rotation) and yet in spite of the strong evidence of modern MMORPG depth and the lack of evidence of early MMORPG depth, this thread persists with players who buy into the idea that modern games are "easy".
To be fair, your example is an 11 year old game that's been refined in the way it's plethora of abilities work in conjunction with each-other, not a modern mmo.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Developers have learned and games evolved - got rid of undesirable features/content.
Hmmm someone didn't play WoW in the beginning. 40 man molten core raid's without the nerfs and NO known strategy present.... sorry that was not easy. Figuring out a key strategy in taking down bosses when none existed and one wrong move meant failure for everyone. It took a whole lot of strategy, planning, and teamwork to even get anywhere with the end game stuff back then...
Don't say it was easy when you just dont know nor have experienced true difficulty, and NOT the brainless kind.
Developers have learned and games evolved - got rid of undesirable features/content.
Hmmm someone didn't play WoW in the beginning. 40 man molten core raid's without the nerfs and NO known strategy present.... sorry that was not easy. Figuring out a key strategy in taking down bosses when none existed and one wrong move meant failure for everyone. It took a whole lot of strategy, planning, and teamwork to even get anywhere with the end game stuff back then...
Don't say it was easy when you just dont know nor have experienced true difficulty, and NOT the brainless kind.
WoW was hard?
Yes, end game WoW WAS hard...emphasis on the word "was". I was in the beta and following that in what is dubbed "vanilla WoW", the difficulty was significantly harder, it actually required a lot of practice and thought just to get through Molten Core when the developers themselves didnt even expect players to get through it. Lets put it this way, blue items were extremely rare, purple was almost unheard of and yellow... well mythical to even think of anyone having such an item. Blizzard didnt advertise the strategies needed to take bosses in raid dungeons down, it was through a lot of trial and error + planning and strategy that the top guilds at the time were even able to accomplish that much.
The difficulty WAS part of the reason it got "stupefied". I know its popular to mock WoW now but seriously try to consider that at the beginning, some 10 years ago, it was a completely different experience... no info, no magical dungeon nerfs, no overpowered gear, just very very very very rare gear...especially the end game.
What is missed in most MMOs IMO is the adversity heroes encounter before victory. It's part of good writing/storytelling and unfortunately is missed inmost MMOs.
That's a good point (which I'm sure sandbox lovers would disagree with, as would many other players; storytelling isn't the main draw of MMO's), but this perspective does make modern MMO's better. The earlier, harder MMO's didn't have that much storytelling. The game was difficult precisely because there was need to keep players from moving forward in the pretty barren content landscape.
Comments
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No, I'd rather use terminology that helps me understand what something is; FPS fits the bill just fine as does MOBA.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
It is 1 thing to give tools like Looking For Group for all types of instances the game offers and also portals, flying, etc. But iti s another to nerf also the game. IF you nerf everything to make people reach max level too fast and skip 90% of the game, you will get people that quits fast because they see everything too fast. Same thing with gear, if you give them loot's every time they log on and play a bit the game, then it takes no time to gear up at max level and they just re-roll another character and at one point got all of them and find the game boring, specially after playing the same content on all those characters.
Anyways, that is my view on this and that is why i always say bring back the vanilla way of playing this type of game. Because i like the convenience but not the nerf to the content that followed it also.
LoL and WoT are very popular online multiplayer games but they are not Massively Multiplayer.
wait ... how is convenience anything to do with challenge?
Look at D3 .. hard mode, ladders (going up to #1 in any of the ranking is extremely challenging) ... and the game is very convenient to play. One click and you are killing stuff.
Ditto for LoL ... extremely challenging if you want to go up the ranks ... but hey, one click and you are fighting.
Ditto for World of Tanks.
Logic has little to do with the broadening of MMO so that the genre can get more attention. I have no problem using terminology that is common, as long as i know what it is. Even this site classified MOBAs and ARPG as sub-genre of MMOs.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And this is NOT the only site who does so. It is easy to find examples. Just google it.
Aloha Mr Hand !
While I agree that convenience tools/systems were instituted for casuals that didn't mean the content had to be easy, stupidly easy in most cases. The end result does cater to the same crowd you mention but IMO has more to do with feeding into the ego of players to a hilarious degree. In most stories the main character, our self, doesn't lose in a fantasy story. What is missed in most MMOs IMO is the adversity heroes encounter before victory. It's part of good writing/storytelling and unfortunately is missed inmost MMOs.
This site (it's not the only one) really needs to get it's shit together in this respect but that doesn't change anything.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
The point is the websites want broader definition to help with readership, and most players don't care about "correct" definitions .. otherwise you will see a lot more outcry (aside from some here).
Because otherwise we're obligated to point out that what you're saying here is batshit crazy.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
No early MMORPGs had combat remotely as deep as this (wow subtlety rogue rotation) and yet in spite of the strong evidence of modern MMORPG depth and the lack of evidence of early MMORPG depth, this thread persists with players who buy into the idea that modern games are "easy".
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Don't say it was easy when you just dont know nor have experienced true difficulty, and NOT the brainless kind.
The difficulty WAS part of the reason it got "stupefied". I know its popular to mock WoW now but seriously try to consider that at the beginning, some 10 years ago, it was a completely different experience... no info, no magical dungeon nerfs, no overpowered gear, just very very very very rare gear...especially the end game.
I mean, it's a highly successful way to market cell phones, fast cars, fashion.... all sorts of stuff.
We've seen various companies attempting the approach with marketing their MMOs. "This is the game for Tru Hardc0re PVP Action Yo."
And we've definitely seen the fanboys lining up to try selling "This is the Game for Superior Oldschool Persons."