A solution to this is to make the stat advantage/disadvantage a % change on the final stat after modifications for level and equipment.
As for elves, there used to be a distinction in some games between wood elves and high elves. Based on my own perception of these two types of elf, wood elves would not have paladins or clerics. High elves might have depending on the specific lore.
I have to just say this. The adherence to tradition from... maybe 50 years ago?... is so real when I read your posts. It's like saying Asians are good at math and Africans are good at athletics. When in reality, while there may be tendencies towards those things, there are a vast array of things that every individual, no matter where they come from, or what their race, are good at.
How can you possibly have a perception about a fantasy race call wood elves and then box them out of a class like paladin? Why has that been ingrained into you so much? Why is it so important that races follow their predefined role? Why is it impossible for a wood elf to believe in a God other than their traditional one? There are Muslims that were born Christian and vice versa. Why is it that we MUST make restictions based on religion.
In some cases I can actually see a point there. Small religions (or cults) may be very selective about their membership. Ad it can be based on race. It can be based on anything, really. But those are rare exceptions, generally based on intolerant ideas. And I actually think it would be interesting to see something like that happen in a game. But why everyone? Why must every race be restricted to a religion or idealism based on "lore." Why does this kind of simpleminded lore attract people so much?
Well everyone on earth is human so if the game only had humans then the class/race thing would not be a issue. This post is like you are assuming that ogres are just big ugly humans. Perhaps their lore is such that they would never think about being a wizard or their minds are such that they could never learn to be one. As far as the in game gods go, what is important is not rather the wood elf wishes to worship a non-traditional one but rather the lore allows the non-traditional god to accept the wood elf.
Yeah, Gods are racist. I get it.
You are conflating quite different things. The thing about real world racism is that there are no races in a biological or any other meaningful sense. The thing about high fantasy races is that, generally, they represent quite separate and distinct biological species. In the case of Pantheon is that the lore tells you that they evolved on separate worlds that now intersect.
So don't bring your legitimate concerns about real world racism to a high fantasy setting.
You are conflating quite different things. The thing about real world racism is that there are no races in a biological or any other meaningful sense. The thing about high fantasy races is that, generally, they represent quite separate and distinct biological species. In the case of Pantheon is that the lore tells you that they evolved on separate worlds that now intersect.
So don't bring your legitimate concerns about real world racism to a high fantasy setting.
I'm not really concerned about racism in the real world. To me, it appears that everyone is at least somewhat racist. It's not really a subject I want to go too far in at MMORPG.com.
If anything, I'm concerned with terrible justifications about game design based on something as silly as race. You have been conflating religion with race in my opinion, and so I brought a counter point to the claim that the Gods are what decides what race/class combo a character should be. I think of this as old design based on old ideas about real life where we thought of races/genders/nationalities/whatever as being so separate.
And to some people they are. And that is honestly an ok perspective for people to have. But not admitting that older games adhered to that perspective and trying to say that it's all just "fantasy" is what bothers me. If you are going to rely on lore for progression design, and that design makes sure that races can not worship what they want to, specialize in what they want to, or do whatever that particular individual wants to do (even if they are bad at it), completely based on race, then you might as well be aware of what kind of world you want to pretend to live in.
It's part of my argument that lore should not be the reasoning behind limiting races too much. And that part is completely opinion. The other part is that from a gameplay and game design perspective, it would be far more interesting if you allowed race to be a meaningful choice, along with class, and allowed people to build in a more open system. And that is also completely my opinion.
Ya that the only fault I can find with this table. Elf should get
cleric and Paladin, unless there is so lore fact I'm missing. What I
read about their race seems they are a goodly race. Could it be a deity
issue?
Well, you might disagree, but in my book Elf, at least the High/Ashen Elf, is more paladinesque than Human and Dwarf.
Concerning this first idea. The idea that people will min/max based on class/race combinations. Yes, they will.
For the third time (in this posting): This already didnt worked in Vanguard. Yes Lesser Giant wasnt the worst pick for a Dread Knight. But I had no reason whatsoever to envy them on a Qaliathari Dread Knight - I had the superior racial ability and what I lacked in Strength, I got in Intelligence and thus a bit stronger spells, plus of course during raids you'll be capped anyway, even on a race with no extra strength bonus at all.
So I dont see why it would work in Pantheon, especially since they want to further customize classes for races, giving every combination a slightly different set of skills.
I have mixed feelings regarding these restrictions. I like the
restrictions but I've also been in a few scenarios where the only class
I'm interested in is unavailable to the only race that I'm interested
in. It sucks, and it sucks enough to make me not play the game.
Well, while I would be very, very unhappy if they dont allow elven paladins, I dont think that would stop me from playing.
I have mixed feelings regarding these restrictions. I like the restrictions but I've also been in a few scenarios where the only class I'm interested in is unavailable to the only race that I'm interested in. It sucks, and it sucks enough to make me not play the game.
Lore based restrictions make sense but only if they actually make sense. By that I mean, are the restrictions truly tied to the race or are they actually tied to something else, like the culture?
Elves can't be clerics because they don't worship the gods? What about elves that grow up with a human family, outside of Elven influence?
Halflings can't be warriors? What is stopping them from picking up a short sword and getting combat training? Stature doesn't make a sword any less sharp and using a short sword doesn't make you a rogue.
Orcs can't be the Mystical Elven Archer class because they aren't elven? Even the smartest Ogre is too stupid to be a wizard? That actually makes sense. I think what bothers people is when the game arbitrarily restricts their choices when the restrictions don't make sense to them.
also mixed feelings for me in this case...
most preferably i'd like to have no race restrictions or just very few, obvious ones (orcish warlord or something like this...)
buuut it still has to work with the lore. your halfling warrior will just have HUUUGE race disadvantage like 80% less damage over the orc warrior.
disadvantage to the point where the min-maxer would absolutely not take the race as his choice but the RP'er could still go for it. this would also minimize the halfling warrior population. otoh this would take an enormous amount of development time just to make a halfling warrior happen, which almost no one would play anyways.. development time usually could be spent better
Ultimately it is (literally) their world. I think the lore argument is a weak excuse but that's me. Inevitably everyone will just choose the best synergy between race and class anyway, but that's what they want and again it IS their world.
Ultimately it is (literally) their world. I think the lore argument is a weak excuse but that's me. Inevitably everyone will just choose the best synergy between race and class anyway, but that's what they want and again it IS their world.
yes and making every class available to every race will not change this, the min/maxers will always pick the race with the absolute best racials that fits their build (if they exist) and there really isn't a choice anyways.
honestly, if you are a min/maxer race choice should be a non issue for you, only performance should matter. oh and some people play these games for the RPG aspects like the lore and not just to be the absolute best min/maxer.....everything doesn't have to be an Esport, ya know?
Ultimately it is (literally) their world. I think the lore argument is a weak excuse but that's me. Inevitably everyone will just choose the best synergy between race and class anyway, but that's what they want and again it IS their world.
At least your logic/reasoning makes sense. Someone else also mentioned they understand the reasoning behind race/class restrictions, but because there was specifically one race and one class combo they "had to have," that they are somewhat deterred from playing the game. In that case, I definitely sympathize and wish there was a be all end all answer, but there isn't and if I were in their boat I would be upset too.
To more specifically respond to your comment though, I would also point out that with the progeny system, I think it will be impossible/a long time until people figure out what the "optimal" combinations are. The fact that you will pass certain abilities from one class to another adds so much diversity in and of itself alone, that I think we will see a lot of people just playing what they want to play, rather than trying to analyze a system that is quite frankly impossible to know/analyze at this point. Just my opinion, but this is semi-unfounded so I could be completely wrong. These extra features, however, supplemented by racial bonuses (they already said dwarves will already have a tier 1 kind of threshold for cold/frost environments), faction AND alignment variables, geography of starting races (they point out it will be extremely difficult at early levels for certain evil races to travel through/near a good faction city for they will be KOS), end game raiding combinations and a bunch of other variables I didn't mention will so heavily influence how a race/class plays out that I think we will see a nice, balanced distribution.
It's things like this, this 'EQ did it' mentality, plus the evidence of the streams that look like nothing more than the basic 1999 EQ model, make me leery about Pantheon aiming no higher than an 'EQ with modern graphics', despite the website and fervent backers claims. That's what I'm afraid we're going to get, and that isn't a step forward for the genre. That would be a step backwards.
An MMO Evolved
Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen will likely be a fundamentally different game compared to what you may have experienced playing other modern MMORPGs. From the moment you log in you will notice that the game is more social and has an emphasis on cooperative play. The monsters are often tougher and exploration is more involved. You will need friends in the game and your reputation can either help you progress or hinder it. Death in-game is meaningful and you’ll want to avoid it when possible. You’ll learn your surroundings and the lay of the land, spending meaningful time in each area and not just running through as quickly as possible to collect ten hides. You will need strategy, cunning and endurance to uncover all that Pantheon has to offer. You will find yourself in group and guild chats as you strategize or even just to pass the time between battles. Pantheon is social, thought-provoking, and the memories from your experiences in Terminus will last a lifetime.
Atmosphere/Climate System
One of Pantheon’s tenets is ‘Engage the World!’ When we talk about being a PvE MMO, our definition of ‘environment’ means a lot more than just fighting NPCs -- players will be contending with the world itself. Some regions will be very hot or cold. Some areas within a zone might be enchanted with complete darkness, or silence (meaning spoken spells won't work), or poison or miasma. Small tornados could travel through a region, compelling players to work their way around them, not through them, lest they take significant damage. Also, certain spells may work better or worse (or even only work) depending on the climate or atmosphere -- for example, a 'Call Lightning' spell could deal more damage than a typical ‘lightning bolt’ spell but could only be cast if there is a storm in the region.
In MMOs it is common to find rare items out in the world, by adventuring or by crafting, but abilities and spells are more often learned from trainers or even just given to player when his or her character levels up. In Pantheon, however, many of the more rare and exotic spells and abilities are found not at the local trainer but from a wise sage hiding in the depths of a dungeon or at the top of a remote tower. Learn more
Dynamic NPC Encounter Groups
The world is not static and unchanging – every day is not ‘groundhog’ day. Events occur that can completely change the population of a zone or the population of a group of NPCs within a zone (and the rarer the event, the rarer the rewards -- many exotic items can only be obtained when one of these zone events occur). An example: after you kill some key mobs guarding a hill giant camp, this triggers a zone event that loads up an invading force of Storm Giants who then proceed to attack the Hill Giant camp.
NPC Dispositions and Behaviors
An area we have not seen much innovation in MMORPGs, almost since their inception, is the area of NPC AI. What if certain enemies had different “dispositions” that had to be discovered by the player? Many NPCs in Pantheon will have advanced behaviors, like the propensity to flee if possible, or to stand and fight to the end. Some NPCs will be inclined to help other NPCs in the area, while some will not. Some will target certain classes within the group that is attacking them. NPC’s movement speeds may vary if they feel they are outmatched. While it is too early to go into a lot of detail, some of the different dispositions we are working on include: the Alarmist, the Bully, the Craven, the Opportunist, the Protector, and the Strategist.
Colored Mana System
Different classes will use different colors of mana. Some rare abilities, spells, and prayers will use more than one color of mana. These exotic abilities create an opportunity to sub-class your character, allowing players to customize their class to a degree, but without removing the interdependence between classes that is key to group content and building community.
Progeny System
Players will be able to 'retire' high level characters and then create their children as new characters, but these new characters, the 'progeny', will have certain abilities, stats, etc. that make them slightly yet noticeably better than a completely brand new character (but not to the point that it unbalances things).
Situational Gear
In Pantheon, there often won't simply be a weapon or piece of gear that is the absolute best item for your character’s class and level. Instead, many items will be more situational, and the player will need to ask himself, 'where am I?', 'what am I going to fight next?', and 'who in my group is what class, and what items do they have that may help defeat the next encounter?' Items that protect against climates/atmospheres (areas of extreme heat or cold, or disease, or absolute darkness) will often be important. So also will 'bane' items that are especially effective against certain types of mobs (for example, the Undead, or Dragonkind).
The Perception System
One of the most profound things about Pantheon is how we are designing the game from the ground up so that the Environment truly matters – we want players to care about the world they are in, and why things are the way they are. When you think of MMOs, when is the last time you discovered the meaning, or the history, or the secrets of a person, place or event without being told by a text box? What if we’ve conceived of a way to bring players back to exploring because they are compelled by what they see in front of them - not because a blinking light tells them to go there? In Pantheon, Wizards will be able to perceive things that a Warrior cannot. Through prayer, a Cleric may gain insight into an area, or a creature, that a Rogue could never know. Through our perception system, Pantheon will redefine how the game world becomes known, and how players will work together to progress.
It's things like this, this 'EQ did it' mentality, plus the evidence of the streams that look like nothing more than the basic 1999 EQ model, make me leery about Pantheon aiming no higher than an 'EQ with modern graphics', despite the website and fervent backers claims. That's what I'm afraid we're going to get, and that isn't a step forward for the genre. That would be a step backwards.
Pantheon is most definitely a modern MMO with modern graphics and new and exciting features and mechanics. There are already emulators out there that are clones of earlier MMOs and Visionary Realms has no desire to make another emulator. That said, we also feel that many of the features and mechanics of previous MMOs have been abandoned in more recent games, resulting in a less challenging, compelling, deep, and social experience. Pantheon, therefore, will indeed bring back some of these conventional mechanics and ideas but with a fresh perspective, some tweaks and revisions. We also understand that while gamers’ tastes don’t fundamentally change over time, their situations, lives, and responsibilities do. Likewise, some game mechanics often associated with earlier MMOs involved inordinate amounts of downtime, overly severe penalties, too much competition over content and resources, and even downright boring or overly repetitive gameplay. Our intention, therefore, is not to bring back ‘everything’ from the old days, but rather to pick and choose those which make sense and are needed to make a fun, social, cooperative, and challenging game.
I'm curious about something now. In the information there's a hint at the codex only being 10 abilities. Does that mean that we will have a 10 ability hot-bar? Edit: Went back and watched videos, seems to be the case. Good on them. Button-bloat is so annoying.
I'm curious about something now. In the information there's a hint at the codex only being 10 abilities. Does that mean that we will have a 10 ability hot-bar? Edit: Went back and watched videos, seems to be the case. Good on them. Button-bloat is so annoying.
Yeah I was so happy to see this as well. Just like in EQ you'd have maybe literally hundreds of spells by end game, but can only have 10-12 loaded at any given time, which takes battle strategy that much deeper. So many spells that you would forget you had many of them, but they were all useful at given times. Now this is for spells and certain abilities that take up those gems on the hotbar, but there will be an additional combat bar with other abilities like kick, slam, bash, flying kick, round kick, (there are like hundreds over the various classes plus the rare AAs and stuff you earned as well) as well as special combat abilities you earn later (assuming they stick to traditional EQ/DnD style, which it's 99% certain they will because you can literally see the skill tab in one of the videos, and they still have almost all the old EQ skills in there along with a bunch of new stuff/weird tabs I've never seen).
Comments
So don't bring your legitimate concerns about real world racism to a high fantasy setting.
If anything, I'm concerned with terrible justifications about game design based on something as silly as race. You have been conflating religion with race in my opinion, and so I brought a counter point to the claim that the Gods are what decides what race/class combo a character should be. I think of this as old design based on old ideas about real life where we thought of races/genders/nationalities/whatever as being so separate.
And to some people they are. And that is honestly an ok perspective for people to have. But not admitting that older games adhered to that perspective and trying to say that it's all just "fantasy" is what bothers me. If you are going to rely on lore for progression design, and that design makes sure that races can not worship what they want to, specialize in what they want to, or do whatever that particular individual wants to do (even if they are bad at it), completely based on race, then you might as well be aware of what kind of world you want to pretend to live in.
It's part of my argument that lore should not be the reasoning behind limiting races too much. And that part is completely opinion. The other part is that from a gameplay and game design perspective, it would be far more interesting if you allowed race to be a meaningful choice, along with class, and allowed people to build in a more open system. And that is also completely my opinion.
And Pantheon adds racial classes - meaning an elf ranger, for example, will get a slightly different set of abilities from a Halfling Ranger etc.
I dont really fear that races would feel like graphics only.
Well, you might disagree, but in my book Elf, at least the High/Ashen Elf, is more paladinesque than Human and Dwarf.
Again, Vanguard already had pretty decent races. I dont see why Pantheon would fail there.
You're the fourth of fivth posting of this kind. I wished people would stop doing one and the same posting over and over in this thread.
For the third time (in this posting): This already didnt worked in Vanguard. Yes Lesser Giant wasnt the worst pick for a Dread Knight. But I had no reason whatsoever to envy them on a Qaliathari Dread Knight - I had the superior racial ability and what I lacked in Strength, I got in Intelligence and thus a bit stronger spells, plus of course during raids you'll be capped anyway, even on a race with no extra strength bonus at all.
So I dont see why it would work in Pantheon, especially since they want to further customize classes for races, giving every combination a slightly different set of skills.
Well, while I would be very, very unhappy if they dont allow elven paladins, I dont think that would stop me from playing.
In my understaning, Ashen elves are high elves, while Ember elves are wood elves. At least thats what I'm getting from the description.
The hardcore roleplaying games are pen & paper and they ALL allow you to create your own character.
most preferably i'd like to have no race restrictions or just very few, obvious ones (orcish warlord or something like this...)
buuut it still has to work with the lore. your halfling warrior will just have HUUUGE race disadvantage like 80% less damage over the orc warrior.
disadvantage to the point where the min-maxer would absolutely not take the race as his choice but the RP'er could still go for it.
this would also minimize the halfling warrior population.
otoh this would take an enormous amount of development time just to make a halfling warrior happen, which almost no one would play anyways.. development time usually could be spent better
honestly, if you are a min/maxer race choice should be a non issue for you, only performance should matter. oh and some people play these games for the RPG aspects like the lore and not just to be the absolute best min/maxer.....everything doesn't have to be an Esport, ya know?
To more specifically respond to your comment though, I would also point out that with the progeny system, I think it will be impossible/a long time until people figure out what the "optimal" combinations are. The fact that you will pass certain abilities from one class to another adds so much diversity in and of itself alone, that I think we will see a lot of people just playing what they want to play, rather than trying to analyze a system that is quite frankly impossible to know/analyze at this point. Just my opinion, but this is semi-unfounded so I could be completely wrong. These extra features, however, supplemented by racial bonuses (they already said dwarves will already have a tier 1 kind of threshold for cold/frost environments), faction AND alignment variables, geography of starting races (they point out it will be extremely difficult at early levels for certain evil races to travel through/near a good faction city for they will be KOS), end game raiding combinations and a bunch of other variables I didn't mention will so heavily influence how a race/class plays out that I think we will see a nice, balanced distribution.
An MMO Evolved
Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen will likely be a fundamentally different game compared to what you may have experienced playing other modern MMORPGs. From the moment you log in you will notice that the game is more social and has an emphasis on cooperative play. The monsters are often tougher and exploration is more involved. You will need friends in the game and your reputation can either help you progress or hinder it. Death in-game is meaningful and you’ll want to avoid it when possible. You’ll learn your surroundings and the lay of the land, spending meaningful time in each area and not just running through as quickly as possible to collect ten hides. You will need strategy, cunning and endurance to uncover all that Pantheon has to offer. You will find yourself in group and guild chats as you strategize or even just to pass the time between battles. Pantheon is social, thought-provoking, and the memories from your experiences in Terminus will last a lifetime.Atmosphere/Climate System
One of Pantheon’s tenets is ‘Engage the World!’ When we talk about being a PvE MMO, our definition of ‘environment’ means a lot more than just fighting NPCs -- players will be contending with the world itself. Some regions will be very hot or cold. Some areas within a zone might be enchanted with complete darkness, or silence (meaning spoken spells won't work), or poison or miasma. Small tornados could travel through a region, compelling players to work their way around them, not through them, lest they take significant damage. Also, certain spells may work better or worse (or even only work) depending on the climate or atmosphere -- for example, a 'Call Lightning' spell could deal more damage than a typical ‘lightning bolt’ spell but could only be cast if there is a storm in the region.Powerful Spells and Abilities: The Living Codex
In MMOs it is common to find rare items out in the world, by adventuring or by crafting, but abilities and spells are more often learned from trainers or even just given to player when his or her character levels up. In Pantheon, however, many of the more rare and exotic spells and abilities are found not at the local trainer but from a wise sage hiding in the depths of a dungeon or at the top of a remote tower.Learn more
Dynamic NPC Encounter Groups
The world is not static and unchanging – every day is not ‘groundhog’ day. Events occur that can completely change the population of a zone or the population of a group of NPCs within a zone (and the rarer the event, the rarer the rewards -- many exotic items can only be obtained when one of these zone events occur). An example: after you kill some key mobs guarding a hill giant camp, this triggers a zone event that loads up an invading force of Storm Giants who then proceed to attack the Hill Giant camp.NPC Dispositions and Behaviors
An area we have not seen much innovation in MMORPGs, almost since their inception, is the area of NPC AI. What if certain enemies had different “dispositions” that had to be discovered by the player? Many NPCs in Pantheon will have advanced behaviors, like the propensity to flee if possible, or to stand and fight to the end. Some NPCs will be inclined to help other NPCs in the area, while some will not. Some will target certain classes within the group that is attacking them. NPC’s movement speeds may vary if they feel they are outmatched. While it is too early to go into a lot of detail, some of the different dispositions we are working on include: the Alarmist, the Bully, the Craven, the Opportunist, the Protector, and the Strategist.Colored Mana System
Different classes will use different colors of mana. Some rare abilities, spells, and prayers will use more than one color of mana. These exotic abilities create an opportunity to sub-class your character, allowing players to customize their class to a degree, but without removing the interdependence between classes that is key to group content and building community.Progeny System
Players will be able to 'retire' high level characters and then create their children as new characters, but these new characters, the 'progeny', will have certain abilities, stats, etc. that make them slightly yet noticeably better than a completely brand new character (but not to the point that it unbalances things).Situational Gear
In Pantheon, there often won't simply be a weapon or piece of gear that is the absolute best item for your character’s class and level. Instead, many items will be more situational, and the player will need to ask himself, 'where am I?', 'what am I going to fight next?', and 'who in my group is what class, and what items do they have that may help defeat the next encounter?' Items that protect against climates/atmospheres (areas of extreme heat or cold, or disease, or absolute darkness) will often be important. So also will 'bane' items that are especially effective against certain types of mobs (for example, the Undead, or Dragonkind).The Perception System
One of the most profound things about Pantheon is how we are designing the game from the ground up so that the Environment truly matters – we want players to care about the world they are in, and why things are the way they are. When you think of MMOs, when is the last time you discovered the meaning, or the history, or the secrets of a person, place or event without being told by a text box? What if we’ve conceived of a way to bring players back to exploring because they are compelled by what they see in front of them - not because a blinking light tells them to go there? In Pantheon, Wizards will be able to perceive things that a Warrior cannot. Through prayer, a Cleric may gain insight into an area, or a creature, that a Rogue could never know. Through our perception system, Pantheon will redefine how the game world becomes known, and how players will work together to progress.It sounds like Pantheon is bringing back a lot of ‘older’ MMO game mechanics. Is Pantheon a clone of older games or a modern MMO?
Pantheon is most definitely a modern MMO with modern graphics and new and exciting features and mechanics. There are already emulators out there that are clones of earlier MMOs and Visionary Realms has no desire to make another emulator. That said, we also feel that many of the features and mechanics of previous MMOs have been abandoned in more recent games, resulting in a less challenging, compelling, deep, and social experience. Pantheon, therefore, will indeed bring back some of these conventional mechanics and ideas but with a fresh perspective, some tweaks and revisions. We also understand that while gamers’ tastes don’t fundamentally change over time, their situations, lives, and responsibilities do. Likewise, some game mechanics often associated with earlier MMOs involved inordinate amounts of downtime, overly severe penalties, too much competition over content and resources, and even downright boring or overly repetitive gameplay. Our intention, therefore, is not to bring back ‘everything’ from the old days, but rather to pick and choose those which make sense and are needed to make a fun, social, cooperative, and challenging game.
I'm curious about something now. In the information there's a hint at the codex only being 10 abilities. Does that mean that we will have a 10 ability hot-bar?
Edit: Went back and watched videos, seems to be the case. Good on them. Button-bloat is so annoying.