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Preferred Pricing Model

13

Comments

  • Superman0XSuperman0X Member RarePosts: 2,292
    edited October 2015
    Albatroes said:
    Double the normal sub price for the ability to pay for when I actually log into the game vs. paying for 30 days, half of which I may or may not use if I'm lucky or get bored of the game.
    Actually, timecards are very popular in many countries. They do not have the problem of a monthly sub, you just use them as you go.

    P.S. 66 hours on a timecard is considered the equivalent of a 30 day sub.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    I'm putting together my presentation for investors and I am having a really hard time finding data that supports the subscription model. Nearly every company is going F2P and companies that began with subs are losing millions making the switch. Not very promising.
    You are looking in the wrong place. Most large F2P games in the west have a substantial sub based revenue. This has been true for F2P for the past 15 years, and continues today.  This is pretty well documented.
    But the sub-ONLY model is dead in the west. A f2p/sub hybrid model is different. free is always just an option.
    I do not know that the sub only model has ever worked, anywhere. This would be a game that does not have box sales, expansion sales, any type of direct sales (including cash shop/item mall), and only ever had a (required?) sub. What game has done this? And if they did do this, was it successful enough to be copied?
    EVE Online from 2003 to 2008

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,722
    edited October 2015
    I prefer B2P with a small cash shop and expansions.

    F2P is too risky to keep servers alive long term without becoming a massive cash grab or pay to win.

    P2P is a problem because i should be able to play a game after i paid full price for it.

    An optional subscription is fine if the base game is B2P. That way if i lose my sub i can still play the game i paid for while keeping F2P and its risks away. But the small cash shop should be limited to B2P while subbers get everything as an incentive to stay subbed.




  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    Albatroes said:
    Double the normal sub price for the ability to pay for when I actually log into the game vs. paying for 30 days, half of which I may or may not use if I'm lucky or get bored of the game.
    Actually, timecards are very popular in many countries. They do not have the problem of a monthly sub, you just use them as you go.

    P.S. 66 hours on a timecard is considered the equivalent of a 30 day sub.
    Oh serious? They deduct the time played right?
  • GladDogGladDog Member RarePosts: 1,097
    edited October 2015


    So! My question. Of all of these various options, which do you prefer and why? Do you have other, outside-the-box suggestions? Obviously, I'm leaning towards B2P with Cash Shop. Bear in mind that A: We are not looking to take advantage of our players, but B: We do need to generate ongoing profit. These investors won't be paying us forever.



    How about a tiered Premium subscription? 

    Have a $7.50 a month sub plan that includes all DLC.

    Have a $15/month USD plan that includes all DLC and gives currency for the cash shop, as well as 'Premium Plus' only perks like unique costumes and highest end potions.

    If you did something like this, you could still have F2P, but most of these players would be locked out of DLC content unless they buy it, meaning the dedicated 7.50 & 15 subscribers have somewhere to hide from the trouble makers.  I'M NOT SAYING THAT ALL F2P PLAYERS ARE TROUBLE MAKERS!  But someone coming into any game looking for trouble WILL DO SO using F2P since it costs them nothing if they get banned.


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  • Superman0XSuperman0X Member RarePosts: 2,292
    edited October 2015
    Loktofeit said:
    I'm putting together my presentation for investors and I am having a really hard time finding data that supports the subscription model. Nearly every company is going F2P and companies that began with subs are losing millions making the switch. Not very promising.
    You are looking in the wrong place. Most large F2P games in the west have a substantial sub based revenue. This has been true for F2P for the past 15 years, and continues today.  This is pretty well documented.
    But the sub-ONLY model is dead in the west. A f2p/sub hybrid model is different. free is always just an option.
    I do not know that the sub only model has ever worked, anywhere. This would be a game that does not have box sales, expansion sales, any type of direct sales (including cash shop/item mall), and only ever had a (required?) sub. What game has done this? And if they did do this, was it successful enough to be copied?
    EVE Online from 2003 to 2008
    Eve Online sold the box (base game). They also sold PLEX during that period. These would make them not sub only.

    Albatroes said:
    Oh serious? They deduct the time played right?

    Yes. Once you have used up all the time, you have to use another card (enter the code on the account). You can enter multiple cards at a time, so you don't have any interruption when time runs out.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Loktofeit said:
    I'm putting together my presentation for investors and I am having a really hard time finding data that supports the subscription model. Nearly every company is going F2P and companies that began with subs are losing millions making the switch. Not very promising.
    You are looking in the wrong place. Most large F2P games in the west have a substantial sub based revenue. This has been true for F2P for the past 15 years, and continues today.  This is pretty well documented.
    But the sub-ONLY model is dead in the west. A f2p/sub hybrid model is different. free is always just an option.
    I do not know that the sub only model has ever worked, anywhere. This would be a game that does not have box sales, expansion sales, any type of direct sales (including cash shop/item mall), and only ever had a (required?) sub. What game has done this? And if they did do this, was it successful enough to be copied?
    EVE Online from 2003 to 2008
    Eve Online sold the box (base game). They also sold PLEX during that period. These would make them not sub only.
    We sold the box under S&SI for a few months before that ended, and client went digital thereafter. We introduced PLEX in Quantum Rise in 2008. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Superman0XSuperman0X Member RarePosts: 2,292
    Loktofeit said:
    Loktofeit said:
    I'm putting together my presentation for investors and I am having a really hard time finding data that supports the subscription model. Nearly every company is going F2P and companies that began with subs are losing millions making the switch. Not very promising.
    You are looking in the wrong place. Most large F2P games in the west have a substantial sub based revenue. This has been true for F2P for the past 15 years, and continues today.  This is pretty well documented.
    But the sub-ONLY model is dead in the west. A f2p/sub hybrid model is different. free is always just an option.
    I do not know that the sub only model has ever worked, anywhere. This would be a game that does not have box sales, expansion sales, any type of direct sales (including cash shop/item mall), and only ever had a (required?) sub. What game has done this? And if they did do this, was it successful enough to be copied?
    EVE Online from 2003 to 2008
    Eve Online sold the box (base game). They also sold PLEX during that period. These would make them not sub only.
    We sold the box under S&SI for a few months before that ended, and client went digital thereafter. We introduced PLEX in Quantum Rise in 2008. 
    Ok. That sounds valid. I did not closely follow the free trial > paid subscription path for Eve all of these years, and it sounds like there was a time when you only had to purchase a sub to convert the free trial.

    However, the issue still remains... This could not be used as an example of a successful business model (today) as they clearly chose to change it in the future.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775



    Blizzard nailed it because they had a good enough game to do it and entered the market at a great time....Games in 2015 are up against tremendous competition and alot of it is free.
    Including Blizz own games. They know that sub-only is a way of the past.

    HoTS is f2p.

    Hearthstone is f2p.

    I bet Overwatch will be f2p too. 

    They may go back to B2P for some games .. but i would bet Blizz will not make another sub-only game. 
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775


    But the sub-ONLY model is dead in the west. A f2p/sub hybrid model is different. free is always just an option.
    I do not know that the sub only model has ever worked, anywhere. This would be a game that does not have box sales, expansion sales, any type of direct sales (including cash shop/item mall), and only ever had a (required?) sub. What game has done this? And if they did do this, was it successful enough to be copied?
    I should have said sub-REQUIRED model. That will include games with box sales.

    And that is dead now, except WOW.
  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk Member RarePosts: 1,571
    I prefer subs but only if the game is worth a sub and there's the problem. Few MMO's that have released in the last several years have been worth a sub, which is why I believe they've been forced to go F2P.

    AoC was a buggy mess at launch and had little end game content. SWTOR was just KOTOR online, great as a single player story but little need for multiplayer, let alone massively mulitplayer. Wildstar and ESO both had problems of their own leading to players dropping the game early on. Problems that may have been addressed now but the damage was done.

    WoW still has a sub only model. Yes, there's fluff in a shop but you can't actually log into the game without a sub (not counting the trial accounts that can't go beyond L20). EVE is still a sub game, yeah there are PLEX's but someone still has to pay CCP for those and they cost more than a month's sub so CCP must be loving that. FF14:ARR is also sub only and doing well from what I can see.

    I got an email from SE this week asking me to try a 14 day trial on the new EU servers they have opened up for FF14. Not something they could do it they weren't making money. And they wouldn't be making that much if they game was bad and players weren't logging in, not with a sub only model.

    The sub model isn't dead. MMO's lacking in quality is the problem, not the business models.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,771
    I paid for subs for years between 2000-2006.....Those days are over....I havent found a game worth apaying for a sub anymore.....B2P is OK if the game is really solid but I havent found many of those either....In general, I want some sort of free option before paying.....SO many of the post wow games are just garbage.....No way would I pay for 90% of the MMO lot.

    which games did you sub for 2000-2006?

    Are you saying no game is equal to the quality of those games?  Because that should be the standard of what you are subbing to, right?

    Or, are you a cheapskate using a "new standard" just to avoid paying?

    It will be funny to see what games you considered good enough to pay for back then and compare it to what is available today.
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  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,903
    There is one payment method I've been curious to see:  

    You take one limited resource(IE uninstanced housing) and have it only be able to be paid for by a cash-currency
    You then put that resource on the market auction style(With protection for the previous lease-ee IE their currency counts for 2x the amount of others bidders)
    The auction house is then changed to only being able to use cash currency(with no taxes).
    Then you do away with all other cash shop items instead making them incredibly rare drops.

    __________

    Balances set up so that some uninstanced houses are obviously better, and with unique features like shops.   Meaning they are your "whale targets".   Other cheaper houses with the goal of being worth the value of a rare drop or two every month(AU value)

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  • Superman0XSuperman0X Member RarePosts: 2,292
    edited October 2015


    But the sub-ONLY model is dead in the west. A f2p/sub hybrid model is different. free is always just an option.
    I do not know that the sub only model has ever worked, anywhere. This would be a game that does not have box sales, expansion sales, any type of direct sales (including cash shop/item mall), and only ever had a (required?) sub. What game has done this? And if they did do this, was it successful enough to be copied?
    I should have said sub-REQUIRED model. That will include games with box sales.

    And that is dead now, except WOW.
    Well, that includes a lot more. It would cover WoW and Final Fantasy XIV and maybe a few more (I am sure that someone can think of another). Either of these big titles could be a good example. Of course, both of them also include a cash shop, and box/expansion sales.

    P.S.  As someone pointed out, EVE qualifies as well (and there are likely more).
  • GameboyMarcGameboyMarc Member UncommonPosts: 395
    I like a pricing model that offers me a fair amount of entertainment without breaking me. I do not mind cash shops or cosmetic shops. :pleased:  

    image
  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    replace 'sub-only' with 'game with only 1 payment model available'  Its 2015 not 2000, there is no excuse for the former , but to be fair even the worst offender WOW is turning its 500 million a year tanker before it sinks.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • DrDread74DrDread74 Member UncommonPosts: 308
    Gaendric said:
    I don't care which method you use. If the game is fun for me, I will play and pay.
    In a shop based game I will spend about a sub's worth every month anyway.  

    In any case, I hope you succeed. I like your attitude towards money and hope this attitude will help to create something unique instead of only going for the usual profit oriented safe bets in decisions.


    You're touching on a not so well know fact about gamers. Regardless of your pricing model, a particular gamer has a set amount of money he's willing to throw at your game regardless of how you model the pricing scheme

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  • scorpex-xscorpex-x Member RarePosts: 1,030
    I'm glad you aren't going to be a p2p with a cosmetic cash shop, that is really scummy and most simply won't put up with that.  I hate game that do this, this is something only 1 MMO I can think of does and it's gross.

    My suggestion was going to be exactly what you seem to be wanting to do.  Start as B2P with a cash shop, players are far more likely to stick with an mmo when they have money invested and you get a nice chunk of money upfront.  If I buy a game I usually give it a decent chance, if it's f2p my tolerance level is far lower and I'll be uninstalling far quicker.

    The only problem is that the mmo market is flooded so unless you can offer something unique it's going to be pretty hard to make a success of it.
  • scorpex-xscorpex-x Member RarePosts: 1,030
    Moirae said:
    I'd rather have a sub model with access to everything the game has to offer just by the sub. The only time I would consider a cash shop is if it's stuff that doesn't impact the game. I hate f2p and cash shops with a passion. It's just another way to be nickle and dimed to death to add more money to the pockets of the funders. 
    There are no subscription mmo titles that give you access to everything anymore.

    You either get f2p with a cash shop or you get p2p with a cash shop.
  • HighestHandHighestHand Member UncommonPosts: 108
    Does cash shop always mean P2W? Is that the convention? I was thinking a cosmetic cash shop, and maybe some things to make things a little easier, but not necessarily P2W. 
  • HighestHandHighestHand Member UncommonPosts: 108
    scorpex-x said:
    I'm glad you aren't going to be a p2p with a cosmetic cash shop, that is really scummy and most simply won't put up with that.  I hate game that do this, this is something only 1 MMO I can think of does and it's gross.
    Why?
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775


    The sub model isn't dead. MMO's lacking in quality is the problem, not the business models.
    quality is subjective. 

    Given so many are spending so much time in MMOs, i would say they find quality, or at least fun. 
  • khanstructkhanstruct Member UncommonPosts: 756
    Wow, tons of great feedback here. Thanks.

    X-Shift is going to be unique, so I'm not worried about "offering something different". However, being different also comes with some obvious risks (there's a reason most MMOs follow the same cookie cutter). But hey, I'll take my chances on that end.

    So! Here's what we're leaning towards now:

    Free to Download from our site and via Torrent
    (Considering doing a pay to download option that offers some initial perks)

    Unrestricted Free to Play

    Cash Shop for Cosmetic Items

    Monthly Premium Option
    • Discounts in the Cash Shop
    • Monthly Themed Packages (Halloween Decor in October, Christmas in December, etc.)
    • Additional Character... and I'll explain why... it's a long explanation. Brace yourselves.
    X-Shift is full PvP. It's also a shooter in which a single bullet has the potential to kill anyone.
    The obvious problem is that A: You'll have griefers dropping in to mow down a schoolyard and B: The entire world would quickly descend to chaos.

    Ironically, X-Shift is NOT about combat. In fact, we downplay it every chance we get. The open PvP and realistic "bang you're dead" stuff is being done purely to add realism and a sense of tension and danger. (If you double cross a crimelord, we don't want him settling it by "challenging you to a duel".)

    So! The game has an active legal system, run by players and AI. Among many other things, shooting someone is illegal. There are various punishments, including prison.

    This means that, if you blow away a bunch of mall-goers, you can and will be arrested and locked in jail (anywhere from 20 minutes to several days). During that time, if you login, you will control your character... in prison. You can do a few activities while in the slammer, but it's very restricted.

    Obviously, this doesn't help if you just shoot a bunch of people, delete your character and start over again. So basically, creating a new character requires a financial investment (hopefully deterring you from being a douche...)

    So yeah, you must ALWAYS have at least 1 character (you can't delete him unless you have another) and creating a new character will cost money.

    (Don't worry, it's skill-based, so you can always change your character's abilities and traits during gameplay.)

    Phew, I told you it was a long explanation.

  • Superman0XSuperman0X Member RarePosts: 2,292
    Hmm.

    I fully support F2P, but have some concerns about how you are implementing it. Here are the issues:

    Free to Download from our site and via Torrent

    You are going to get a lot of drop off on this. A standard download will cost you a bit more in bandwidth, but will HUGELY improve the download rate.

    X-Shift is full PvP. It's also a shooter in which a single bullet has the potential to kill anyone.

    Without a unique identifier to prevent multi-accounting, people are just going to make multiple accounts, and grief on the alternate accounts. IP, Email, etc are not good enough to prevent this. This seems like a really bad idea.

    Additional Character... and I'll explain why... it's a long explanation. Brace yourselves.

    Even if you do solve the problem of people using free accounts/characters to grief, people are more than willing to PAY for this. The problem will be smaller in scale, but now it will be perceived as a P2W issue, rather than just a trolling issue.

    For some examples of how aggressively people try to cause problems in a social environment you may want to check out Face of Mankind. This is a sandbox game where the players run the government and organizations... and well, lets just say that it could be called 'Lord of the Flies Online' and not be too far off.

  • khanstructkhanstruct Member UncommonPosts: 756
    Hmm.

    I fully support F2P, but have some concerns about how you are implementing it. Here are the issues:

    Free to Download from our site and via Torrent

    You are going to get a lot of drop off on this. A standard download will cost you a bit more in bandwidth, but will HUGELY improve the download rate.

    X-Shift is full PvP. It's also a shooter in which a single bullet has the potential to kill anyone.

    Without a unique identifier to prevent multi-accounting, people are just going to make multiple accounts, and grief on the alternate accounts. IP, Email, etc are not good enough to prevent this. This seems like a really bad idea.

    Additional Character... and I'll explain why... it's a long explanation. Brace yourselves.

    Even if you do solve the problem of people using free accounts/characters to grief, people are more than willing to PAY for this. The problem will be smaller in scale, but now it will be perceived as a P2W issue, rather than just a trolling issue.

    For some examples of how aggressively people try to cause problems in a social environment you may want to check out Face of Mankind. This is a sandbox game where the players run the government and organizations... and well, lets just say that it could be called 'Lord of the Flies Online' and not be too far off.

    As for the download, we will have a standard download from our site. I simply want to add the additional torrent option for folks with slower connections... not sure if they'd be able to then play the game... but we'll see.

    And yeah, I know we're taking a huge risk with our open PvP and legal system. I'm not leaving it entirely to the players, however, as it will also be enforced with NPCs. Also, even the player cops have rules and restrictions as to how they can do things. (A player must be flagged as a criminal, you must attempt to arrest them, etc.)

    NOTE: Cops are liked in Downtown about as much as thugs are liked in Uptown, which will hopefully offer some level of divide, as downtown NPCs will attack cops and Uptown NPCs will arrest criminals.

    I know, we're taking some enormous risks with this design. But hey, I'm willing to sacrifice a decade of my life and a few million dollars for the noble goal of bringing something new to MMOs.  ;)

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