Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

EQ1 and AAs

13»

Comments

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited November 2015
    DMKano said:
    I have over 6K AAs on my Magician and the vast majority of them are pretty useless.

    AA as implemented in EQ1 is a huge grind for a marginal power gain outside of a dozen key abilities. 


    AA as implemented by SOE EQ certainly is. AAs as a concept aren't a bad idea, providing you don't have some mainstream entertainment company who throws in grind gimmicks to keep its sheep grazing.

    One way to avoid long linear diminishing return based AAs is to connect AAs to zones specifically. This way, progression is zone based and there isn't some long line of diminished returns of thousands of hours to gain one small point. With zone based AAs, every point can have a dramatic effect on play, make its truly worth the time spent to obtain it.
    Post edited by Sinist on
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Amsai said:

    Are you asking for limits on which AAs you can take or only just not allowing respec (like if I take AA skill x I cant take AA skill y ever?)
    In EQ (up to GoD that I played), AAs were a permanent selection process of development. That is, you earned AA exp, got a point and spent it in the various AA selections. Once spent, it was a done deal. There was no limit to the AA abilities you could acquire. You had General, Class, Archetypes, and even expansion specific AAs. There was no respecing. If you wanted to change focus, you just started spending in whatever you wanted . It was a truly linear progression of skills, much like levels, once they were filled out, for instance, for "Combat Agility" you would put in so many points for each level. I think it was 3/3 levels where the first cost 3 points, second 6, and 3rd 9 points. If you decided while you were 2/3 to work on something else, you move to that and worked on that. There was no need to respec, just change your focus and spend as you like.


    In my discussion with Mendle, they gave an example of how they needed respecing with an enchanter. Basically, he said that the enchanter used to be "special" for Jeweler crafting and later down the road, they opened it up to other classes. His reasoning is that he should then be able to choose to spend his AAs in something else and so respecing should be an option.

    Problem is, as I said, this cheats the Enchanter who decided not to spend it in crafting and maybe focused on adventure skills because now that player can easily just swap to an entirely new focus of hours of character development in an instant.

    It is a cheap mechanic, one that disregards the effort a player puts in. In Mindels case, he could still craft, he didn't lose anything and he could still focus on other AA's, he just wasn't exclusive anymore. Allowing respec negates the pro/con aspect of a focus and removes the benefit of someone who obtains it.

    Also, consider this. Everyone else is chasing the "flavor of the week" AA development because they all rushed off and read some guide online. So they all focus on those AAs while I think about a different approach and work on that developing my own application of those skills and abilities to produce a unique game play advantage. People find out, then turn around and swap their AAs from the flavor of the week to now my focus as the new flavor of the week.

    Respecing would allow them to do this, but... if they had to "earn" it like I did, then it wouldn't be some easy gimmick for them to copy cat everyone all the time. By the time they maybe copied me, I might be on to some other combination of AAs to create a new effect. Make the sheep earn their game play, not cheat it with silly "Do over" mechanics. That is mainstream and Pantheon should be nothing like it.
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,094
    Sinist said:
    Why?
    I already explained very well why.

    You just choose to ignore my arguments completely. Again.


  • ChrysaorChrysaor Member UncommonPosts: 111
    Everquest is a bad example for respecs because there was no branching or specialization.  You could buy every AA on the menu so while each class had some different AAs, everyone within the class was exactly the same.  So really why would anyone ever need a respec in Everquest.

    More generally, I am not a huge fan of allowing players to respec.  These games are based on roleplaying, so you get to make choices and live with the consequences.  Maybe as a compromise for those who do feel a need to respec their AA choices, perhaps there could be a somewhat arduous quest that you could complete once a year or something like that.

    What I definately do not want to see is someone just flipping their AA choices around to min/max every situation they find themselves in.  For Pantheon, we have no idea what type of AA system they will put in, so this is all just highly speculative.
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Sinist said:
    Why?
    I already explained very well why.

    You just choose to ignore my arguments completely. Again.


    This was your argument:

    I'm at least as adamantly for this.

    You pick the general direction, like your characters name, gender, race, subrace, and class, at the very start of the game.

    Everything else, like subclass, stats, skills, crafter class, harvesting skill choices etc should be changeable, even if it also should require an appropiate amount of effort.

    AA clearly belongs very, very clearly to the second type of descisions. Changing your AAs should never result into an essentially different kind of gameplay. Thus AAs absolutley need to be respeccable.


    That is not a reason, that does not answer why. It is simply a "I want it because I want it" answer.

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Chrysaor said:
    Everquest is a bad example for respecs because there was no branching or specialization.  You could buy every AA on the menu so while each class had some different AAs, everyone within the class was exactly the same.  So really why would anyone ever need a respec in Everquest.

    More generally, I am not a huge fan of allowing players to respec.  These games are based on roleplaying, so you get to make choices and live with the consequences.  Maybe as a compromise for those who do feel a need to respec their AA choices, perhaps there could be a somewhat arduous quest that you could complete once a year or something like that.

    What I definately do not want to see is someone just flipping their AA choices around to min/max every situation they find themselves in.  For Pantheon, we have no idea what type of AA system they will put in, so this is all just highly speculative.
    Even a long drawn out quest idea isn't something I would want. People should just focus on the new AAs they want and that should be sufficient. Respecing isn't just an option, it becomes an integral component of the system design and it will drive development focus in class, content, and game play.

    That is not to say that EQs original AA linear progression is the best solution, but I want them to stay clear of the WoW development style of "Flavor of the Month" which respecing creates. Once they put it in, it will become easier, it will eventually become some simple thing like it is in WoW. I have watched every game that has implemented it start out claiming they would make it difficult for people to do only to have people whine and throw tantrums until they cave.

    If they never implement any sort of system, it reduces the issues of it.
  • ChrysaorChrysaor Member UncommonPosts: 111
    edited November 2015
    Sinist said:
    Chrysaor said:
    Everquest is a bad example for respecs because there was no branching or specialization.  You could buy every AA on the menu so while each class had some different AAs, everyone within the class was exactly the same.  So really why would anyone ever need a respec in Everquest.

    More generally, I am not a huge fan of allowing players to respec.  These games are based on roleplaying, so you get to make choices and live with the consequences.  Maybe as a compromise for those who do feel a need to respec their AA choices, perhaps there could be a somewhat arduous quest that you could complete once a year or something like that.

    What I definately do not want to see is someone just flipping their AA choices around to min/max every situation they find themselves in.  For Pantheon, we have no idea what type of AA system they will put in, so this is all just highly speculative.
    Even a long drawn out quest idea isn't something I would want. People should just focus on the new AAs they want and that should be sufficient. Respecing isn't just an option, it becomes an integral component of the system design and it will drive development focus in class, content, and game play.

    That is not to say that EQs original AA linear progression is the best solution, but I want them to stay clear of the WoW development style of "Flavor of the Month" which respecing creates. Once they put it in, it will become easier, it will eventually become some simple thing like it is in WoW. I have watched every game that has implemented it start out claiming they would make it difficult for people to do only to have people whine and throw tantrums until they cave.

    If they never implement any sort of system, it reduces the issues of it.

    I did say I was not a huge fan of respec.  However, depending on the system they implement, there could be a choice you make which you really regret later.  So, a difficult quest combined with a once a year limit likely would not lead to much abuse.  Better that, then having someone quit because their character is messed up due to clicking on the wrong ability or making an uninformed choice.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    If AA's were too good/meaningful all players would just turn off XP and go AA's making for a fake game.How can you plausibly not gain any experience,that would suggest your character is really dumb,but then why is he learning new stuff from AA's?

    I don't like outside fake systems,i like everything to tie into my character is a realistic manner.It is why i prefer a EQ more than a EQ2 or WOW,i can't stand how games give xp for doing quests.it is like system designers are thinking "ok we need to give them a reward,sop lets give them xp".Well they seem to forget what the heck xp is suppose to represent which is you become more skilled at your skills.Example you are a more experienced axe weilder or a more experienced wood crafter etc etc.

    SO what is the plausible realism of an AA?They are points,who the heck decided points would be a realistic trait of a character in a role playing world?I'll have to remember this the next time i go to the store,i'll ask the clerk for my reward points to upgrade my shopping skills lmao.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,094
    Sinist said:
    I'm at least as adamantly for this.

    You pick the general direction, like your characters name, gender, race, subrace, and class, at the very start of the game.

    Everything else, like subclass, stats, skills, crafter class, harvesting skill choices etc should be changeable, even if it also should require an appropiate amount of effort.

    AA clearly belongs very, very clearly to the second type of descisions. Changing your AAs should never result into an essentially different kind of gameplay. Thus AAs absolutley need to be respeccable.
    That is not a reason, that does not answer why. It is simply a "I want it because I want it" answer.

    Err ... seriously ? This is a very good reason, the best reason even, and I explained it very well, too.

    I havent played EverQuest, but I would assume that you could retrain your skills there as well and reassign your attributes as well and change your subclass if that game had any, and so on and so forth, just as I just described above. Why shouldnt you ? And AA is exactly the same thing.

    Vanguard had 5 subtypes of Cleric (at level 20: Choosing your Deity: War/Melee, Death/Magic, Preservation/Defense, Peace/CC and Purity/Anti-Undead), 3 subtypes of Shaman (at level 15: Choosing your Totem: Tuurgin/Bear/Tank, Rakurr/Wolf/Stealth+Melee, Hayatet/Phoenix/Magic), 3 and later 2 subtypes of Monk (I think at level 15: Drunken/Tank, Dragon/Damage, and original Harmonious/Debuffer), for a certain time there was 2 subtypes of Ranger (IIRC at level 20: Melee or Ranged) but they changed that back again later and in the beginning they had two types of Necromancers (at level 30: turning into an undead, either Ghost/Spritual or Lich/Physical), which was btw a really buggy quest and later became stances. The only case I'm not sure if changing your spec was possible is Necromancer.

    In case you missed it, I said nowhere it should be easy. Retraining your skills in Vanguard took hours at highlevel, days even in case of harvesting skills. Changing your stats required a lot of adventuring in the beginning, though that was a poor solution (one couldnt get retraining points once one could no longer level) and was later changed to a more accessible one that would cost gold. Choosing your subclass or switching it wasnt easy, or even cheap, IIRC Shaman cost 3 gold ? Thats was completely unattainable for a newbie level 15 at the start of the game. Chosing a new crafter subclass if you had a level 50+ crafter was something probably nobody ever did since it took months to level this far (every single double or tripple xp weekend I got was spent leveling my crafters, and I used xp items on top if available), and OMG it was painful months, too. But you COULD switch your crafter class, always, even if you had hit level 50 in it.

  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Sinist said:
    I'm at least as adamantly for this.

    You pick the general direction, like your characters name, gender, race, subrace, and class, at the very start of the game.

    Everything else, like subclass, stats, skills, crafter class, harvesting skill choices etc should be changeable, even if it also should require an appropiate amount of effort.

    AA clearly belongs very, very clearly to the second type of descisions. Changing your AAs should never result into an essentially different kind of gameplay. Thus AAs absolutley need to be respeccable.
    That is not a reason, that does not answer why. It is simply a "I want it because I want it" answer.

    Err ... seriously ? This is a very good reason, the best reason even, and I explained it very well, too.

    I havent played EverQuest, but I would assume that you could retrain your skills there as well and reassign your attributes as well and change your subclass if that game had any, and so on and so forth, just as I just described above. Why shouldnt you ? And AA is exactly the same thing.

    No. AAs in EQ were not re-assignable. You spent them and if you decided you wanted to focus on something else, you earned more AAs and then spent them on that. No reassigning, no "do over" and no "flavor of the month" style adjusting. You spent it, you owned it. Want more, go buy more.

    Reassinable AAs are a cheap mainstream arcade gimmick, not to mention it makes absolutely no sense in game play. You suddenly forget all your skills and the miraculously learn all new skills? Also, such systems are a bad design focus because it is entirely designed for circular shallow systems. It is a mainstream tool for mainstream design. Also, how does that work when classes in Pantheon are supposed to be unique?

    See, the respec system you are describing is a tool for games where class design is hybrid based multi-role concept. The healer can switch to DPS or tank or the like as it is in many games. Even someone here mentioned about playing a rogue offensively and being able to switch to defensive. You guys keep thinking in the same regurgitated design that has been done over and over and failed over and over. I mean, you harp on me about EQ, but heck... EQ hasn't been a clone machine like all the games today. There is still something we can learn from EQ like systems, especially considering it has been around for almost 2 decades.


    Anyway, there is no reason to have respecing in an AA system like EQ. It serves no point other than to attend to a modern mentality that can't stand the idea that they may be locked into what they spent their points on. There are many problems with AAs in EQ that need to be worked out and improved, but respecing isn't one of them.

    As for making it hard to respec. Yeah, I have been there done that in just about every game out there. Once you put that system in, it is a done deal. It used to be very hard to respec a class in EQ2, then it got easier and easier. It used to be very hard to respec in WoW, but it got easier and easier. Those who want respec won't be happy with it being hard or taking time. If they were ok with that, they would spend the time and effort to earn the AAs for what they want to repec.

    Also, if the respec will never be as hard as it is to earn the AAs otherwise there would be no point in the respec anyway as the player would simply earn the new AA. So, just by its very existence it is a cheat, an easier way out. This also doesn't deal with the numerous problems of people respecing when new content comes out, removing all the work and progression because someone quick picked up the new AAs from the new expansion!

    Respecing is a massively bad idea with AAs.
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    edited November 2015
    Chrysaor said:

    I did say I was not a huge fan of respec.  However, depending on the system they implement, there could be a choice you make which you really regret later.  So, a difficult quest combined with a once a year limit likely would not lead to much abuse.  Better that, then having someone quit because their character is messed up due to clicking on the wrong ability or making an uninformed choice.
    Here is the thing. If it isn't as difficult as having to just earn the AA, then it is a cheat to get around having to earn the AA. Also, you would have to put tons of restrictions and deal with all kinds of issues because of its implementation, and for what? So someone can change their AAs more easily? Because, like I said, if it isn't the same time and effort to obtain the new AAs, it is more easily and if you make it equally hard, then there is no point to it anyway.

    As for quitting because they clicked and spent 1 AA (1-3 hours of effort or so) on an ability? Yeah, that one doesn't hold. EQ even has "ARE YOU SURE YOU WOULD LIKE TO ACCEPT THIS?" and I am equally sure the Pantheon team is quite capable of idiot proofing that process. Besides, if a person would throw a tantrum on something like that and quit? Well.. they aren't Pantheon material because there are going to be much more frustrating aspects in the game than worrying about a point that was spent because the person didn't pay attention and clicked through the "are you sure" window.

    Point is, there is no reason to have Respecing and numerous reasons to not have it.
  • ChrysaorChrysaor Member UncommonPosts: 111
    Sinist said:
    Chrysaor said:

    I did say I was not a huge fan of respec.  However, depending on the system they implement, there could be a choice you make which you really regret later.  So, a difficult quest combined with a once a year limit likely would not lead to much abuse.  Better that, then having someone quit because their character is messed up due to clicking on the wrong ability or making an uninformed choice.
    Here is the thing. If it isn't as difficult as having to just earn the AA, then it is a cheat to get around having to earn the AA. Also, you would have to put tons of restrictions and deal with all kinds of issues because of its implementation, and for what? So someone can change their AAs more easily? Because, like I said, if it isn't the same time and effort to obtain the new AAs, it is more easily and if you make it equally hard, then there is no point to it anyway.

    As for quitting because they clicked and spent 1 AA (1-3 hours of effort or so) on an ability? Yeah, that one doesn't hold. EQ even has "ARE YOU SURE YOU WOULD LIKE TO ACCEPT THIS?" and I am equally sure the Pantheon team is quite capable of idiot proofing that process. Besides, if a person would throw a tantrum on something like that and quit? Well.. they aren't Pantheon material because there are going to be much more frustrating aspects in the game than worrying about a point that was spent because the person didn't pay attention and clicked through the "are you sure" window.

    Point is, there is no reason to have Respecing and numerous reasons to not have it.
    Everquest is a bad example because there is never a need for a respec because you can buy every AA for your class.  Where a respec comes into play are in games that require you to make choices that branch you out into different specializations.  Games where perhaps there are 500 abilities but no one character can have more than 100 of those 500 abiltiies.  So here you could have someone who says, you know, given the needs of the friends that I typically group with, perhaps I should have invested into the healing enhancement skill tree rather than the run speed skill tree.  Star Wars Galaxies would be a good example of a game in which you had to choose skills because you could not have them all.
  • SinistSinist Member RarePosts: 1,369
    Chrysaor said:
    Sinist said:
    Chrysaor said:

    I did say I was not a huge fan of respec.  However, depending on the system they implement, there could be a choice you make which you really regret later.  So, a difficult quest combined with a once a year limit likely would not lead to much abuse.  Better that, then having someone quit because their character is messed up due to clicking on the wrong ability or making an uninformed choice.
    Here is the thing. If it isn't as difficult as having to just earn the AA, then it is a cheat to get around having to earn the AA. Also, you would have to put tons of restrictions and deal with all kinds of issues because of its implementation, and for what? So someone can change their AAs more easily? Because, like I said, if it isn't the same time and effort to obtain the new AAs, it is more easily and if you make it equally hard, then there is no point to it anyway.

    As for quitting because they clicked and spent 1 AA (1-3 hours of effort or so) on an ability? Yeah, that one doesn't hold. EQ even has "ARE YOU SURE YOU WOULD LIKE TO ACCEPT THIS?" and I am equally sure the Pantheon team is quite capable of idiot proofing that process. Besides, if a person would throw a tantrum on something like that and quit? Well.. they aren't Pantheon material because there are going to be much more frustrating aspects in the game than worrying about a point that was spent because the person didn't pay attention and clicked through the "are you sure" window.

    Point is, there is no reason to have Respecing and numerous reasons to not have it.
    Everquest is a bad example because there is never a need for a respec because you can buy every AA for your class.  Where a respec comes into play are in games that require you to make choices that branch you out into different specializations.  Games where perhaps there are 500 abilities but no one character can have more than 100 of those 500 abiltiies.  So here you could have someone who says, you know, given the needs of the friends that I typically group with, perhaps I should have invested into the healing enhancement skill tree rather than the run speed skill tree.  Star Wars Galaxies would be a good example of a game in which you had to choose skills because you could not have them all.
    That is only relevant if they go that route. Specialization implies each class will have subclass roles. This works when you have classes playing multiple roles (ie tank/healer/DPS) but that is a design flaw with mainstream games today, that is... making classes that can do it all. That is not what Pantheon is trying to achieve. They are looking to give special role and meaning to every class and you can't have that if you give classes the ability to change up roles.

    If you mean special utility roles such as maybe a rogue focusing on combat AAs while another focuses on the utility roles, that is the point. If AAs take a long time to earn (as they once did, nothing like modern EQ) then a choice in focus will have to be made in development. This will create the that sub-role play, but eventually both will be able to improve all areas, and with new content, new abilities and focuses to which it all begins again.

    Also, as I said, if it is very slow in gaining AAs most won't even be close to capped AAs by the time new content comes out. Or... there is the other solution of having AAs zone dependent.

    Point is, there is no need to respec as such an approach is a completely different style of system, a circular development system which I have never seen turn out well.

    Personally, I would like them to take EQ concepts and improve on them, not insert mainstream concepts all over the place. That is not to say that mainstream games haven't provided interesting solutions over the years, but respecing wasn't a one of them. I disliked them from the day they implemented them in WoW.
Sign In or Register to comment.