Let's be just as critical against the fanbois who praise a game still in beta. 2 sides of the same coin.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by Jorev Or cheering in special olympics. Let's be just as critical against the fanbois who praise a game still in beta. 2 sides of the same coin.
ROFL no its plenty ok to cheer at the special Olympics
Irth is pretty damn raw though, even for an early BETA.
Could be a good game, but it's difficult to enjoy at this stage of development. I don't have a lot of free time to put into testing it, not when half the time I try to play, I'm trying to figure out why some feature or another just doesn't work...
----------------------------- Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
Originally posted by MisfitZ I don't have a lot of free time to put into testing it, not when half the time I try to play, I'm trying to figure out why some feature or another just doesn't work...
Did you mention this in your beta tester application?
Originally posted by mmatto Originally posted by MisfitZ I don't have a lot of free time to put into testing it, not when half the time I try to play, I'm trying to figure out why some feature or another just doesn't work...
Did you mention this in your beta tester application?
i bet he is using the open beta as a chance to try the game for free
Some people here just don't understand the concept of the word beta and how it pertains to the gaming world. I've been testing (open and closed) betas for about 8 years. Each and every one was very similar with their problems, dev stages, and so forth. If you think just because a company starts a beta test earlier or are very open with their developement then you obviously have no idea what an impact a public test can provide.
I've been in several mmorpg beta tests and no two were the same. I'm sorry but the word "beta" is not codified into law and software developers use it as they will. I certainly have a different idea of betas than some posters here, but do you know what? Magic Hat doesn't give a darn how you or I define a beta test. They wanted some player input and assistance so they threw open the doors on their testing and called it an "open beta".
What I find amusing is that the title and opening post of this thread suggest that the developers are behind all the posts which disagree with the Irth-bashers. I can sort of understand someone loving a game to the point of being fanboy if they play it all the time. But how does someone get so negative and paranoid after being in a beta test for an hour? Just because I think someone is paranoid doesn't mean I'm part of a vast, right-wing pro-Irth conspiracy based in Area-51, either. But I guess that will be the next new thread
It's no wonder that a small company with an innovative game in development, like D&L, is talking about skipping the open beta phase. With discussions like this on the mmoprg.com boards, who can blame them.
Star Wars Galaxies did the same (banning people) about their Combat Upgrade. Many people were banned for giving a negative review even though there was no clause saying they could not otherwise.
Originally posted by Incoherent Okay, I will keep this short. THere have been 5 occasions I am aware of where a negative post removed. 4 of the 5 were made by the same person, and weren't completely about the game but personal attacks against the developers. Another one was a fake interview that was deleted by that boards devs because it was slandering and offensive. There seems to be one or two people who have a grudge against a couple of the devs and are trying to do all they can to hurt the game. THough the game they have never even tested. You are right, everything needs reviews both bad and good. Without the bad then how can it improve? I am a Irth Tester and I must admit my outlook is a little biased. But I can assure you negative reviews of the game, if they made about the game are not "removed", but if they are personal attacks against individuals, well then it is up to the moderators to do as they shall on that forum. THis isnt a mafia business, MHS does not go around with baseball bats telling mods on other forums they better not allow bad stuff to be posted. lol Well, not as short as i wanted... Did I miss anything? I usually do.... Have a nice day
----------------------------- Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
Originally posted by Poazac This is a forum for discussion of your opinions about games. If a beta tester decides to give his/her opinion of how great the game is or how horrible the game is, then he is doing the rest of the community a favor.
I disagree, I believe these people would be doing the community a disservice. Commenting on an unfinished project would be misleading as often features change from beta to release. You could comment on a feature that would sway people's opinions, which may not come to fruition upon release. Companies ask testers to sign NDAs to prevent such activity.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Originally posted by Poazac This is a forum for discussion of your opinions about games. If a beta tester decides to give his/her opinion of how great the game is or how horrible the game is, then he is doing the rest of the community a favor.
I disagree, I believe these people would be doing the community a disservice. Commenting on an unfinished project would be misleading as often features change from beta to release. You could comment on a feature that would sway people's opinions, which may not come to fruition upon release. Companies ask testers to sign NDAs to prevent such activity.
This honestly sums the whole beta argument up. In a nutshell unless you have actually participated in numerous beta test's from early stages through completition your opinion on game developement is worthless, to be brutally honest. Those of us who have been doing this for years are well aware that even final phase beta's can be drastically different then gold release. I have seen numerous games undergo massive changes that nearly completely altered gameplay/graphics/performance between these two phases. So honestly for anyone to "Review" a game during the beta process outside providing feed back for the developers is just plain ignorance.
Now mind you before anyone decides to label this as another Irth defense, At this stage of development I am not particularly fond of the game. But its like anything else, what Irth is now and what it may become 6 months from now can change like night and day. I am referring to the beta testing of games in general.
Originally posted by Creollink It seems that everytime somebody gives the Irth Online open-beta a negative review, approximately four people ( or one person with four accounts) immediately start attacking the gamers for having a negative opinion about this game. They attack the gamers for expressing their opinions using various ploys. One form of the attack is to suggest that the gamers, who think the game is too buggy, are just a bunch of ignorant kids who don't know what Beta testing means. They demand that everyone adopt their version of the definition of Beta testing to mean a "game in development". They are constantly berating the gamers for complaining too much about bugs. Another form of the attack sounds like this. A gamer suggests that the game is not ready for Beta and then these attackers immediately jump in and attack the gamer for "violating" the NDA. They demand that he should stop talking about the game, despite the fact that he hasn't revealed any information about the game other than his OPINION that the game is bad. But when another gamer writes that he likes the game, we don't hear a peep from these attackers about "violating" the NDA. It seems that there is an effort to suppress any negative reviews about this game. Irth Online seems to be off-limits to any criticism. We can only write about how much we love the game.
Magic Hat suppressing public opinion?? That is so not cool.
Originally posted by Hayato Magic Hat suppressing public opinion?? That is so not cool.
I wonder what made you feel like having to bump up this dead and buried thread that many has pointed out to be quite much pointless...company is company, fans is fans...no conspiracy here folks.
Originally posted by anarchyart Originally posted by Creollink One form of the attack is to suggest that the gamers, who think the game is too buggy, are just a bunch of ignorant kids who don't know what Beta testing means. They demand that everyone adopt their version of the definition of Beta testing to mean a "game in development". That's what a beta is!! It's not done and of course there are bugs you fewls WTF DO YOU THINK YOUR BETA TESTING IT FOR!! Freaking idiots should not be allowed to beta test! If your on the beta your supposed to be reporting bugs to the devs and see if what they have implemented so far (they rarely have everything planned in a beta) works properly, not trying out the game to see if you like it! UGH!
Not to be a jerk here or anything anarchyart but growingly companies think only to showcase their mmorpg's with 'open beta'. Look at Fileplanet, it has turned into a money-making industry. If you become a subscriber, you get the latest demos/betas. Some beta's don't even -have- bug submitting buttons nor forums for such that you have to actually go out of your way to report as such.. times are a-changin'.. I'm afraid to say.
You are very wrong! Those big game companies who do open betas, really are just intending for it to be a trial, and stress test I guess. But in truth they don't really tend to listen to the community, outside their chosen few beta testers and so on.
You are stating the meaning of Beta is changing, when it will never change. Open Beta's will still be taken seriously, by serious game developing teams because of what the meaning of a Beta is. Times don't change meanings just because of MMORPGs.
Originally posted by Mikey0114 You are very wrong! Those big game companies who do open betas, really are just intending for it to be a trial, and stress test I guess. But in truth they don't really tend to listen to the community, outside their chosen few beta testers and so on. You are stating the meaning of Beta is changing, when it will never change. Open Beta's will still be taken seriously, by serious game developing teams because of what the meaning of a Beta is. Times don't change meanings just because of MMORPGs.
And what evidence do you have of this, are you a corporate spokesperson? And I never said that the meaning, I said 'some' are making a few bucks off it, not the majority. You really thought Blizzard (among others) would care what you say when they're already advertising open betas, which should be used for for testing, becames another front to get money from. Most players just don't want to give out bugs so they're thinking of it as a free trial when it's not, the game companies realize it and discover a quick way to make a few bucks and set to it. If you can't recognize this, please clear the potatos out of your ears :P
Wait, you misunderstood what I said, and I mis understood what you said, sorry about that. Listen I thought you meant that the betas are becomming trials and demos (so to speak), thats what I thought you meant by times are changing, its a statement to describe the big picture.
I said exactly what you said about game developing companies like blizzard using an open beta as a sort of trial instead of what it really is meant to be. When I said the meaning of beta isn't changing, the big game corporations, don't care, they tend to see open-beta as something totally different, as a sort of marketing strategy to gain more customers. But only some MMORPGs are changing the name of Open Beta. Not every other software developing industry. Thats what I misunderstood. I agree with you about the fact that players are unaware of what a beta really is and think they have gained a special trial, like a person who got really upset after being permitted into the Roma Victor beta, complaining about the obvious problems that everyone should face in an open beta, such as net lag and fps lag and such......can you consider them to really be capable beta testers... i do not, and this is what people who want beta accounts just to play the game and not help fix it, should understand!
If only eq2 had listened to various things in Beta; Linked mobs, lack of solo encounters, group debt. They didn't and a lot of people were put off by that. They are only now fixing these things.
Since some people here are going to continue to kick this dead horse, I thought I'd chime in with another opinion that nobody cares about. I've been following Irth Online development for over a year now. Well over a year. And I know who most of the people are on their boards, and many who post here also. I can guarantee that the Irth Devs are not trying to censor out negative revies on this site. I can also almost guarantee you that they never even read the forums on this site, much less care what's in them.
Irth has attracted many rabid followers in the 18 months or so I've been following it, and for good reason. We are actually impacting a game that is being made. I know of 2 specific instances where things that I've recommended have actually been incorporated. I know of countless other instances where people have made suggestions on the boards, and their ideas have made it into the game. You don't get that at SOE or Blizzard, or Turbine, or anywhere else except from small companies like MHS. So, yes, sometimes there are Irth fans who are a bit overzealous in defending it, but that's because it's a game that we've all had a hand in creating.
And just to state my opinion on the original topic, MHS I'm sure would greatly appreciate any comments you have concerning their game, be they positive or negative, as long as they are:
1. Constructive
2. Non-Flaming
3. Made in the Irth Online Forums, where they belong
Looking at this from a different viewpoint, the journalistic viewpoint, a game 'preview' will *always* be positive it's a given in the games industry that games in development need to be supported. Once commercially released it's fair game and believe it or not most game publishers would prefer a negative review to no review at all.
The point that has been covered, is the qualification of a beta tester to review a game, in my experience there are people out there testing games that I'm surprised even know how to turn a PC on. Some players just don't get it, I've seen instances where testers are raging about something not working, another tester tells them what they're doing wrong and the next post is all positive because instead of asking or reading how to overcome a problem they've ranted - no patience and no brains.
Another point that's been made that I strongly agree with is the complaints or comments a beta tester has *must* be made in the appropriate place, i.e. the game's website and beta test section, not on a site like mmorpg.com - that is very unfair, because it's someone's completely subjective opinion. I hope that Irth find the culprits and ban their asses.
you have your QA or gms in a closed beta. closest thing to designing a game a normal joe is going to be able to get unless he or she takes the next step.
The thing your there for is not to just bug hunt. Thats the gms or QA job.
If you find one then by all means follow the checklist and report it. Sometimes Devs monitor chat and you can just talk normal and it will be in a log file.
They want you to play the game not just run around like a freaking robot bug exterminator.
Your there to build the starts of the color to the canvas, a working model. Your always gonna have your people that hang on words like hangers that take everything to heart. They live life logically and everything has to be that way or they will just die.
Then you have peeps like myself that go into a test and play the game. Or what ever parts they have available. And give a company a honest frank opinion.
Example if ive just soloed on my guitar for like an hour just shit off the top of my head ya know. I ask my wife how did that solo make you feel. What do you feel about it. Do i want a candy coated pat my ass answer or a real answer. People that create things need that cold shower. So thier ego dont suffocate all around them and they release a candy assed cookie cutter game like WOW or Me playing badly and not knowing any better.
how a player feels about thier play experience Is priceless
First off remember i don't give a shit about the company and how they feel. Its all about me and the way i feel about their product. I dont like getting burned by tasteless games and half assed mechanics. If my subjective opinion is an issue then maybe any and all that feel this way should move to America. Here we call it freedom of speech. I mean you've certainly exercised yours as everyone should.
Thats why i like this site MMORPG.com. I can get real answers. And i try to return the favor by giving real answers back.
Anyhow
Irth online is screwed simply by design. anyone with any amount of closed door testing will get in game and laugh at how the land was designed and leave.
Comments
Or cheering in special olympics.
Let's be just as critical against the fanbois who praise a game still in beta. 2 sides of the same coin.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
Irth is pretty damn raw though, even for an early BETA.
Could be a good game, but it's difficult to enjoy at this stage of development. I don't have a lot of free time to put into testing it, not when half the time I try to play, I'm trying to figure out why some feature or another just doesn't work...
-----------------------------
Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
Did you mention this in your beta tester application?
Did you mention this in your beta tester application?
i bet he is using the open beta as a chance to try the game for free
Some people here just don't understand the concept of the word beta and how it pertains to the gaming world. I've been testing (open and closed) betas for about 8 years. Each and every one was very similar with their problems, dev stages, and so forth. If you think just because a company starts a beta test earlier or are very open with their developement then you obviously have no idea what an impact a public test can provide.
I've been in several mmorpg beta tests and no two were the same. I'm sorry but the word "beta" is not codified into law and software developers use it as they will. I certainly have a different idea of betas than some posters here, but do you know what? Magic Hat doesn't give a darn how you or I define a beta test. They wanted some player input and assistance so they threw open the doors on their testing and called it an "open beta".
What I find amusing is that the title and opening post of this thread suggest that the developers are behind all the posts which disagree with the Irth-bashers. I can sort of understand someone loving a game to the point of being fanboy if they play it all the time. But how does someone get so negative and paranoid after being in a beta test for an hour? Just because I think someone is paranoid doesn't mean I'm part of a vast, right-wing pro-Irth conspiracy based in Area-51, either. But I guess that will be the next new thread
It's no wonder that a small company with an innovative game in development, like D&L, is talking about skipping the open beta phase. With discussions like this on the mmoprg.com boards, who can blame them.
Star Wars Galaxies did the same (banning people) about their Combat Upgrade. Many people were banned for giving a negative review even though there was no clause saying they could not otherwise.
word.
..Geez, my post wasn't that bad, was it?
-----------------------------
Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
Funny, I heard this topic discussed before on another website as well.
I disagree, I believe these people would be doing the community a disservice. Commenting on an unfinished project would be misleading as often features change from beta to release. You could comment on a feature that would sway people's opinions, which may not come to fruition upon release. Companies ask testers to sign NDAs to prevent such activity.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I disagree, I believe these people would be doing the community a disservice. Commenting on an unfinished project would be misleading as often features change from beta to release. You could comment on a feature that would sway people's opinions, which may not come to fruition upon release. Companies ask testers to sign NDAs to prevent such activity.
This honestly sums the whole beta argument up. In a nutshell unless you have actually participated in numerous beta test's from early stages through completition your opinion on game developement is worthless, to be brutally honest. Those of us who have been doing this for years are well aware that even final phase beta's can be drastically different then gold release. I have seen numerous games undergo massive changes that nearly completely altered gameplay/graphics/performance between these two phases. So honestly for anyone to "Review" a game during the beta process outside providing feed back for the developers is just plain ignorance.
Now mind you before anyone decides to label this as another Irth defense, At this stage of development I am not particularly fond of the game. But its like anything else, what Irth is now and what it may become 6 months from now can change like night and day. I am referring to the beta testing of games in general.
I wonder what made you feel like having to bump up this dead and buried thread that many has pointed out to be quite much pointless...company is company, fans is fans...no conspiracy here folks.
Not to be a jerk here or anything anarchyart but growingly companies think only to showcase their mmorpg's with 'open beta'. Look at Fileplanet, it has turned into a money-making industry. If you become a subscriber, you get the latest demos/betas. Some beta's don't even -have- bug submitting buttons nor forums for such that you have to actually go out of your way to report as such.. times are a-changin'.. I'm afraid to say.
You are very wrong! Those big game companies who do open betas, really are just intending for it to be a trial, and stress test I guess. But in truth they don't really tend to listen to the community, outside their chosen few beta testers and so on.
You are stating the meaning of Beta is changing, when it will never change. Open Beta's will still be taken seriously, by serious game developing teams because of what the meaning of a Beta is. Times don't change meanings just because of MMORPGs.
And what evidence do you have of this, are you a corporate spokesperson? And I never said that the meaning, I said 'some' are making a few bucks off it, not the majority. You really thought Blizzard (among others) would care what you say when they're already advertising open betas, which should be used for for testing, becames another front to get money from. Most players just don't want to give out bugs so they're thinking of it as a free trial when it's not, the game companies realize it and discover a quick way to make a few bucks and set to it. If you can't recognize this, please clear the potatos out of your ears :P
Wait, you misunderstood what I said, and I mis understood what you said, sorry about that. Listen I thought you meant that the betas are becomming trials and demos (so to speak), thats what I thought you meant by times are changing, its a statement to describe the big picture.
I said exactly what you said about game developing companies like blizzard using an open beta as a sort of trial instead of what it really is meant to be. When I said the meaning of beta isn't changing, the big game corporations, don't care, they tend to see open-beta as something totally different, as a sort of marketing strategy to gain more customers. But only some MMORPGs are changing the name of Open Beta. Not every other software developing industry. Thats what I misunderstood. I agree with you about the fact that players are unaware of what a beta really is and think they have gained a special trial, like a person who got really upset after being permitted into the Roma Victor beta, complaining about the obvious problems that everyone should face in an open beta, such as net lag and fps lag and such......can you consider them to really be capable beta testers... i do not, and this is what people who want beta accounts just to play the game and not help fix it, should understand!
If only eq2 had listened to various things in Beta; Linked mobs, lack of solo encounters, group debt. They didn't and a lot of people were put off by that. They are only now fixing these things.
Since some people here are going to continue to kick this dead horse, I thought I'd chime in with another opinion that nobody cares about. I've been following Irth Online development for over a year now. Well over a year. And I know who most of the people are on their boards, and many who post here also. I can guarantee that the Irth Devs are not trying to censor out negative revies on this site. I can also almost guarantee you that they never even read the forums on this site, much less care what's in them.
Irth has attracted many rabid followers in the 18 months or so I've been following it, and for good reason. We are actually impacting a game that is being made. I know of 2 specific instances where things that I've recommended have actually been incorporated. I know of countless other instances where people have made suggestions on the boards, and their ideas have made it into the game. You don't get that at SOE or Blizzard, or Turbine, or anywhere else except from small companies like MHS. So, yes, sometimes there are Irth fans who are a bit overzealous in defending it, but that's because it's a game that we've all had a hand in creating.
And just to state my opinion on the original topic, MHS I'm sure would greatly appreciate any comments you have concerning their game, be they positive or negative, as long as they are:
1. Constructive
2. Non-Flaming
3. Made in the Irth Online Forums, where they belong
Looking at this from a different viewpoint, the journalistic viewpoint, a game 'preview' will *always* be positive it's a given in the games industry that games in development need to be supported. Once commercially released it's fair game and believe it or not most game publishers would prefer a negative review to no review at all.
The point that has been covered, is the qualification of a beta tester to review a game, in my experience there are people out there testing games that I'm surprised even know how to turn a PC on. Some players just don't get it, I've seen instances where testers are raging about something not working, another tester tells them what they're doing wrong and the next post is all positive because instead of asking or reading how to overcome a problem they've ranted - no patience and no brains.
Another point that's been made that I strongly agree with is the complaints or comments a beta tester has *must* be made in the appropriate place, i.e. the game's website and beta test section, not on a site like mmorpg.com - that is very unfair, because it's someone's completely subjective opinion. I hope that Irth find the culprits and ban their asses.
-A
you are so SPAMMING it's not true and I buy my gold from a jeweller.
Benny....................................
you can look at it as it is.
you have your QA or gms in a closed beta. closest thing to designing a game a normal joe is going to be able to get unless he or she takes the next step.
The thing your there for is not to just bug hunt. Thats the gms or QA job.
If you find one then by all means follow the checklist and report it. Sometimes Devs monitor chat and you can just talk normal and it will be in a log file.
They want you to play the game not just run around like a freaking robot bug exterminator.
Your there to build the starts of the color to the canvas, a working model. Your always gonna have your people that hang on words like hangers that take everything to heart. They live life logically and everything has to be that way or they will just die.
Then you have peeps like myself that go into a test and play the game. Or what ever parts they have available. And give a company a honest frank opinion.
Example if ive just soloed on my guitar for like an hour just shit off the top of my head ya know. I ask my wife how did that solo make you feel. What do you feel about it. Do i want a candy coated pat my ass answer or a real answer. People that create things need that cold shower. So thier ego dont suffocate all around them and they release a candy assed cookie cutter game like WOW or Me playing badly and not knowing any better.
how a player feels about thier play experience Is priceless
First off remember i don't give a shit about the company and how they feel. Its all about me and the way i feel about their product. I dont like getting burned by tasteless games and half assed mechanics. If my subjective opinion is an issue then maybe any and all that feel this way should move to America. Here we call it freedom of speech. I mean you've certainly exercised yours as everyone should.
Thats why i like this site MMORPG.com. I can get real answers. And i try to return the favor by giving real answers back.
Anyhow
Irth online is screwed simply by design. anyone with any amount of closed door testing will get in game and laugh at how the land was designed and leave.
Hence the remark made by kids in the hype sector
FoE Fist of the Empire
