Then collect your data and get it to a developer, because their data evidently says otherwise.
Brad already has, the game is called Pantheon. Do any of you even read the Tenants/Features or his blog comments? It is like you walk into a forum and go on about things without a shred of knowledge.
Here's some knowledge. EQ peaked at less than 500k subscriptions, and that was in a market that was, essentially, untouched. There's no denying that there's a market for EQ, but it's not a mass market, the MMORPG genre is saturated, and it's entirely possible that EQ fans don't want a new EQ game. I mean EQ on steam has nearly 300k "owners" and sees an average of 100-150 concurrent users daily. Compare this to something more mainstream like RIFT (averaging 1500 orso concurrent users daily) or LOTRO (around 1000 average concurrent users), and it shows that there's definitely a niche market. However, it's not a mass market, so that's scary as hell. You're, basically, banking on securing old EQ users and hoping that there are others who might be interested in trying an old school game.
As far as Pantheon goes, I think it's being developed on passion. Don't forget that Pantheon went to Kickstarter and failed. It didn't even reach 500k in funding and barely made it over 3000 backers. What else do you need? That's the market talking, not Brad talking. That's not to say it won't be successful, but the measure of success will be significantly different than most other games.
EQ these days is mainstream appeal. So, if you are a mainstreamer, do you play EQ with old graphics, clunky interfaces and systems OR... do you play a mainstream game like Rift or LoTRO? Kind of apples to oranges comparison though.
Another thing, EQ peaked at 550k subs:
Its decline is a long debate, not need to get into the details, but between a focus on top end raiders and mainstreaming some features, combined with WoW, and other game releases, it was natural people were moving on.
Lastly, the reason the KS failed is because they came completely unprepared to the KS. I mean, they had little to show they were serious. All they had was some general outlines, some art and lots of promises. With the recent failures of other KS projects, people were leery. Heck, I thought their KS was a joke.
Even so, they were able to gain a fair amount of support after the failing which is why you see them here today.
Do you think they will be successful catering to mainstream features? Look at the market, there is no more room for mainstream games. You can cover your eyes and type in random letters in a search engine and you will come up with another mainstream MMO. Mainstream will turn out a fail guaranteed.
Now if they are willing to accept modest profits (but still profitable), then they can do well. If you note, they have been building the game slowly and are not in massive debt because of it. So, the chances that they will make their profits to be able to keep the doors open is very likely.
You don't have to be a pop start to have a career in music and be profitable in it. They don't have to compete with mainstream to be successful.
I agree with you only on this and it's also the reason why games in the past ten years have been garbage. Developers today, when they are designing and coding and whatever else, all they see is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. They have no passion in what they do.
Sinist said: Another thing, EQ peaked at 550k subs:
Good luck finding official statment on that.
MMODATA compose the graphs from various sources, EQ is listed as least reliable. It is fine to use it for "ballpark" numbers but sticking to specific numbers on that chart is plain wrong.
Sinist said: Another thing, EQ peaked at 550k subs:
Good luck finding official statment on that.
MMODATA compose the graphs from various sources, EQ is listed as least reliable. It is fine to use it for "ballpark" numbers but sticking to specific numbers on that chart is plain wrong.
You are wrong. See how that works? I just claim it and it is so! I win the internet! /boggle
A C rating is a combination of official statements and other 3rd party sources. You took that to mean that the numbers are completely unreliable.
The poster stated EQ had below 500k subs, I listed it as 550k subs, if we are to accept the numbers to have a error rating, then we must apply a + or - range for accuracy.
So, if MMOdata states 550k it could mean above 550 and it could mean below it. So your point is just picking and serves no purpose.
No, it is simply true. Games companies don't make games like EQ anymore because people don't want to play them. You can say "Well, Vanguard sold 250k at launch." Great! It sold 250k! SWtRO sold what? Four times that number at launch. The Burning Crusades (since you brought it up) sold 2.4 million copies on release day. Gaming is a business and a business is in it for the money.
As other have clearly stated if EQ was a lucrative business model gaming companies would be jumping on it. However, as anyone not blinded by nostalgia or sheer stupidity can see they aren't. EQ type gaming is dead in the water and will remain a niche for those who enjoy it. It will never become the mainstream type gaming that it once was.
I mean seriously who wants to spend 3 weeks stuck in a hell level then die and de-level? That's right almost no one. Why? Because it sucked then and it would still suck now.
OK, so years later Star Wars (one of the biggest IP of all time) managed to sell only 4 times the boxes of a game people knew was barely playable in beta (and competing with WoW in its prime)? Then they (SWTOR) wasn't even able to maintain a playerbase as big as EverQuests over 10 years prior when a fraction of the planet had internet?
A C rating is a combination of official statements and other 3rd party sources. You took that to mean that the numbers are completely unreliable.
The poster stated EQ had below 500k subs, I listed it as 550k subs, if we are to accept the numbers to have a error rating, then we must apply a + or - range for accuracy.
So, if MMOdata states 550k it could mean above 550 and it could mean below it. So your point is just picking and serves no purpose.
You have some issues with reading comprehension, not surprising though...
Gdemami said: It is fine to use it for "ballpark" numbers but sticking to specific numbers on that chart is plain wrong.
I am not dismissing them, I am using them appropriately.
Your logic, or the lack of, is atrocious -> If there is there was one more person claiming 1M subs, then EQ would have 680k subs(1M+500+550 / 3) .
The poster above pointed out to simple fact that there is no official announcement that EQ broke even 500k subscriber mark, thus 550k is unlikely, which it is and like I said before, sticking to specific numbers is plain wrong, not to say stupid.
Seriously, I don't get it. Why are people so narcissistic here? Are some of you bored? Just need to get some attention? Obviously, some of you have no intention of playing this game and some are asking for things completely contrary to the games Tenants/features.
Why are you here? I don't get it, I mean I could care less about the numerous games coming out that I dislike or have no interest in their feature direction. I don't go to their forums and troll them to get them to argue with me. I don't walk into a mainstream game and tell people they are wrong because they want the game to be an arcade spamy action game with instant power up wins and lots of lotto designed RMT features.
I mean, I would be a pretty screwed up person to think that serves any useful purpose.
Seriously, I don't get it. Why are people so narcissistic here? Are some of you bored? Just need to get some attention? Obviously, some of you have no intention of playing this game and some are asking for things completely contrary to the games Tenants/features.
Why are you here? I don't get it, I mean I could care less about the numerous games coming out that I dislike or have no interest in their feature direction. I don't go to their forums and troll them to get them to argue with me. I don't walk into a mainstream game and tell people they are wrong because they want the game to be an arcade spamy action game with instant power up wins and lots of lotto designed RMT features.
I mean, I would be a pretty screwed up person to think that serves any useful purpose.
So why are some of you here?
You come here, ranting left and right, insulting everyone that does not like games you like and now you call people narcissistic and trolls?
They dont do those kind of games because there is not enough player base to support those games. If you think devs are too stupid to know why kicks in EQ then you are delusional.
bull....bulld it and they will come.....just build it right.
So many comments touting wow and its success as the reason EQ style games aren't made, and thus we see the wow clones. McDonalds earns $4.62 per SHARE. They make money hand over fist. Their food is below average, their customer service is below average and half the time you go there, you going to end up with cold fries. Don't tell me being a successful franchise means you are putting out a great product. In the case of McDonalds and Blizzard they make money off of peddling cheap FAST FOOD to the masses. Because life in the business world just aint that simple. Fact of the matter is this, there hasn't been one EQ themed game made, since well EQ, that is worth playing. IF a dev were to make one truly worthy of the concept, people would flock to it. PERIOD.
Star Wars Episode I, did pretty good at the box office. Tell me it was good because it made a boat load of money ? lol
Seriously, I don't get it. Why are people so narcissistic here? Are some of you bored? Just need to get some attention? Obviously, some of you have no intention of playing this game and some are asking for things completely contrary to the games Tenants/features.
Why are you here? I don't get it, I mean I could care less about the numerous games coming out that I dislike or have no interest in their feature direction. I don't go to their forums and troll them to get them to argue with me. I don't walk into a mainstream game and tell people they are wrong because they want the game to be an arcade spamy action game with instant power up wins and lots of lotto designed RMT features.
I mean, I would be a pretty screwed up person to think that serves any useful purpose.
So why are some of you here?
You come here, ranting left and right, insulting everyone that does not like games you like and now you call people narcissistic and trolls?
Serious lack of self-reflection...?
I have been here discussing Pantheon, features pertinent to its tenants and design goals. Others have come here claiming the game needs to be action like, that EQ/VG and its style is dead, that this game will fail because it isn't mainstream.
So you tell me, who is in the wrong forum here? Heck, you even began your responses here defending RMT and such mainstream practices which will NOT be a part of Pantheon.
Then collect your data and get it to a developer, because their data evidently says otherwise.
Brad already has, the game is called Pantheon. Do any of you even read the Tenants/Features or his blog comments? It is like you walk into a forum and go on about things without a shred of knowledge.
Here's some knowledge. EQ peaked at less than 500k subscriptions, and that was in a market that was, essentially, untouched. There's no denying that there's a market for EQ, but it's not a mass market, the MMORPG genre is saturated, and it's entirely possible that EQ fans don't want a new EQ game. I mean EQ on steam has nearly 300k "owners" and sees an average of 100-150 concurrent users daily. Compare this to something more mainstream like RIFT (averaging 1500 orso concurrent users daily) or LOTRO (around 1000 average concurrent users), and it shows that there's definitely a niche market. However, it's not a mass market, so that's scary as hell. You're, basically, banking on securing old EQ users and hoping that there are others who might be interested in trying an old school game.
As far as Pantheon goes, I think it's being developed on passion. Don't forget that Pantheon went to Kickstarter and failed. It didn't even reach 500k in funding and barely made it over 3000 backers. What else do you need? That's the market talking, not Brad talking. That's not to say it won't be successful, but the measure of success will be significantly different than most other games.
EQ these days is mainstream appeal. So, if you are a mainstreamer, do you play EQ with old graphics, clunky interfaces and systems OR... do you play a mainstream game like Rift or LoTRO? Kind of apples to oranges comparison though.
Another thing, EQ peaked at 550k subs:
Its decline is a long debate, not need to get into the details, but between a focus on top end raiders and mainstreaming some features, combined with WoW, and other game releases, it was natural people were moving on.
Lastly, the reason the KS failed is because they came completely unprepared to the KS. I mean, they had little to show they were serious. All they had was some general outlines, some art and lots of promises. With the recent failures of other KS projects, people were leery. Heck, I thought their KS was a joke.
Even so, they were able to gain a fair amount of support after the failing which is why you see them here today.
Do you think they will be successful catering to mainstream features? Look at the market, there is no more room for mainstream games. You can cover your eyes and type in random letters in a search engine and you will come up with another mainstream MMO. Mainstream will turn out a fail guaranteed.
Now if they are willing to accept modest profits (but still profitable), then they can do well. If you note, they have been building the game slowly and are not in massive debt because of it. So, the chances that they will make their profits to be able to keep the doors open is very likely.
You don't have to be a pop start to have a career in music and be profitable in it. They don't have to compete with mainstream to be successful.
Honestly, debating about decade-old stats over +/-10% is retarded.
Do I think that making Pantheon a mainstream MMO would be beneficial to the game? I don't know. Saga of Lucimia is another "hardcore" MMO and they are VERY in-your-face about their intentions and vision, which is cool, and they'll literally tell everyone else to "Fuck Off". They've also gone on record as saying that they're building their game to be sustainable with a 10k user-base. Is that a good idea? I don't know. I guess time will tell.
Ok, maybe I'm going to be shot out of the water here, but aren't they developing using volunteers? It's more likely slow development by necessity than choice, I think. In that same vein, I believe they ran out of money a while ago, didn't they? No, you certainly don't need to be a pop star to have a career, and for someone like Saga of Lucimia, I think that'll be ok with them. However, Brad is a pop star..... he's not a pop star who is making tons of money right now, but he's a pop star. Also, I don't know how big a team he has, but if he's still using volunteers, then how long will people be "cool" with doing that?
I think that Pantheon will be a good game. Whether or not it will be a financial success remains to be seen, but I hope it is. I'd love to see something older school that actually has a decent population, too.
Crap, oh yeah, so my point is, to answer the OP, hell yes developers understand EQ. They understand the market all too well, that's the problem. So there are very few who are willing to stick their nose out and take a chance making something niche because, simply put, when you do that, you better hope you capture a large chunk of that niche. That being said, crowdfunding has opened the doors for many people to do this type of "passionate" work. Games like Shards Online, Camelot Unchained, Albion Online, The Repopulation, Shroud of the Avatar, Pantheon. All great examples of games that simply would not exist in development today without crowdfunding. Why? Because the market is seriously limited.
Honestly, debating about decade-old stats over +/-10% is retarded.
Do I think that making Pantheon a mainstream MMO would be beneficial to the game? I don't know. Saga of Lucimia is another "hardcore" MMO and they are VERY in-your-face about their intentions and vision, which is cool, and they'll literally tell everyone else to "Fuck Off". They've also gone on record as saying that they're building their game to be sustainable with a 10k user-base. Is that a good idea? I don't know. I guess time will tell.
Ok, maybe I'm going to be shot out of the water here, but aren't they developing using volunteers? It's more likely slow development by necessity than choice, I think. In that same vein, I believe they ran out of money a while ago, didn't they? No, you certainly don't need to be a pop star to have a career, and for someone like Saga of Lucimia, I think that'll be ok with them. However, Brad is a pop star..... he's not a pop star who is making tons of money right now, but he's a pop star. Also, I don't know how big a team he has, but if he's still using volunteers, then how long will people be "cool" with doing that?
I think that Pantheon will be a good game. Whether or not it will be a financial success remains to be seen, but I hope it is. I'd love to see something older school that actually has a decent population, too.
I think you need to read Brads blogs as well as Pantheons news links and announcements. A lot of your information is wrong or outdated.
Specifically, Pantheon currently has funding. The volunteers are now payed and they've actually rehired member(s) of the original team and as well as others.
Pantheon has some funding, they still need more investors on board. However, they now have a playable demo version from 1-10 that they can show to future investors so its up to Brad Mcquaid to make it happen.
I don't see why we would need another project that does the exact same thing, that would only split up the base that's actually interested in the game.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
They dont do those kind of games because there is not enough player base to support those games. If you think devs are too stupid to know why kicks in EQ then you are delusional.
Came here to say this. Right now the players that want an EQ like game are playing EQ. It's a really niche community. People aren't going to flock to 50 different clones of an oldschool hard group based MMORPG, so right now the community has Pantheon to look forward to which is a good thing. And EQnext if it ever happens.
Everquest Next will be nothing like the the previous games.
Honestly, debating about decade-old stats over +/-10% is retarded.
Do I think that making Pantheon a mainstream MMO would be beneficial to the game? I don't know. Saga of Lucimia is another "hardcore" MMO and they are VERY in-your-face about their intentions and vision, which is cool, and they'll literally tell everyone else to "Fuck Off". They've also gone on record as saying that they're building their game to be sustainable with a 10k user-base. Is that a good idea? I don't know. I guess time will tell.
Ok, maybe I'm going to be shot out of the water here, but aren't they developing using volunteers? It's more likely slow development by necessity than choice, I think. In that same vein, I believe they ran out of money a while ago, didn't they? No, you certainly don't need to be a pop star to have a career, and for someone like Saga of Lucimia, I think that'll be ok with them. However, Brad is a pop star..... he's not a pop star who is making tons of money right now, but he's a pop star. Also, I don't know how big a team he has, but if he's still using volunteers, then how long will people be "cool" with doing that?
I think that Pantheon will be a good game. Whether or not it will be a financial success remains to be seen, but I hope it is. I'd love to see something older school that actually has a decent population, too.
I think you need to read Brads blogs as well as Pantheons news links and announcements. A lot of your information is wrong or outdated.
Cool, I actually didn't know that. Thanks for the update. That's just new, though, right? Like month-old news?
I know that when they were initially funding the game they had a possible pledge of like $200k or something ridiculous, but it fell through. I wonder if it came from the same place.
Regardless, I'm not disagreeing with you. Even you said yourself that as long as they're ok with limited profits, then they can be successful, which answers the OPs question, imo.
For the record, I did back Pantheon during its KS. I haven't since, but will probably play it. I just think that the current model is very indicative of how niche a market it really is ($100 minimum pledge, subscription model, etc.). I just don't see the value there, really.
Comments
Another thing, EQ peaked at 550k subs:
Its decline is a long debate, not need to get into the details, but between a focus on top end raiders and mainstreaming some features, combined with WoW, and other game releases, it was natural people were moving on.
Lastly, the reason the KS failed is because they came completely unprepared to the KS. I mean, they had little to show they were serious. All they had was some general outlines, some art and lots of promises. With the recent failures of other KS projects, people were leery. Heck, I thought their KS was a joke.
Even so, they were able to gain a fair amount of support after the failing which is why you see them here today.
Do you think they will be successful catering to mainstream features? Look at the market, there is no more room for mainstream games. You can cover your eyes and type in random letters in a search engine and you will come up with another mainstream MMO. Mainstream will turn out a fail guaranteed.
Now if they are willing to accept modest profits (but still profitable), then they can do well. If you note, they have been building the game slowly and are not in massive debt because of it. So, the chances that they will make their profits to be able to keep the doors open is very likely.
You don't have to be a pop start to have a career in music and be profitable in it. They don't have to compete with mainstream to be successful.
http://mmodata.blogspot.cz/search/label/Accuracy and abbreviations
A C rating is a combination of official statements and other 3rd party sources. You took that to mean that the numbers are completely unreliable.
The poster stated EQ had below 500k subs, I listed it as 550k subs, if we are to accept the numbers to have a error rating, then we must apply a + or - range for accuracy.
So, if MMOdata states 550k it could mean above 550 and it could mean below it. So your point is just picking and serves no purpose.
Cool story!
You have some issues with reading comprehension, not surprising though... I am not dismissing them, I am using them appropriately.
Your logic, or the lack of, is atrocious -> If there is there was one more person claiming 1M subs, then EQ would have 680k subs(1M+500+550 / 3) .
The poster above pointed out to simple fact that there is no official announcement that EQ broke even 500k subscriber mark, thus 550k is unlikely, which it is and like I said before, sticking to specific numbers is plain wrong, not to say stupid.
Why are you here? I don't get it, I mean I could care less about the numerous games coming out that I dislike or have no interest in their feature direction. I don't go to their forums and troll them to get them to argue with me. I don't walk into a mainstream game and tell people they are wrong because they want the game to be an arcade spamy action game with instant power up wins and lots of lotto designed RMT features.
I mean, I would be a pretty screwed up person to think that serves any useful purpose.
So why are some of you here?
Serious lack of self-reflection...?
...don't you find anything wrong with that logic?
So many comments touting wow and its success as the reason EQ style games aren't made, and thus we see the wow clones. McDonalds earns $4.62 per SHARE. They make money hand over fist. Their food is below average, their customer service is below average and half the time you go there, you going to end up with cold fries. Don't tell me being a successful franchise means you are putting out a great product. In the case of McDonalds and Blizzard they make money off of peddling cheap FAST FOOD to the masses. Because life in the business world just aint that simple. Fact of the matter is this, there hasn't been one EQ themed game made, since well EQ, that is worth playing. IF a dev were to make one truly worthy of the concept, people would flock to it. PERIOD.
Star Wars Episode I, did pretty good at the box office. Tell me it was good because it made a boat load of money ? lol
So you tell me, who is in the wrong forum here? Heck, you even began your responses here defending RMT and such mainstream practices which will NOT be a part of Pantheon.
Go ahead, tell me I am wrong.
Honestly, debating about decade-old stats over +/-10% is retarded.
Do I think that making Pantheon a mainstream MMO would be beneficial to the game? I don't know. Saga of Lucimia is another "hardcore" MMO and they are VERY in-your-face about their intentions and vision, which is cool, and they'll literally tell everyone else to "Fuck Off". They've also gone on record as saying that they're building their game to be sustainable with a 10k user-base. Is that a good idea? I don't know. I guess time will tell.
Ok, maybe I'm going to be shot out of the water here, but aren't they developing using volunteers? It's more likely slow development by necessity than choice, I think. In that same vein, I believe they ran out of money a while ago, didn't they? No, you certainly don't need to be a pop star to have a career, and for someone like Saga of Lucimia, I think that'll be ok with them. However, Brad is a pop star..... he's not a pop star who is making tons of money right now, but he's a pop star. Also, I don't know how big a team he has, but if he's still using volunteers, then how long will people be "cool" with doing that?
I think that Pantheon will be a good game. Whether or not it will be a financial success remains to be seen, but I hope it is. I'd love to see something older school that actually has a decent population, too.
Crap, oh yeah, so my point is, to answer the OP, hell yes developers understand EQ. They understand the market all too well, that's the problem. So there are very few who are willing to stick their nose out and take a chance making something niche because, simply put, when you do that, you better hope you capture a large chunk of that niche. That being said, crowdfunding has opened the doors for many people to do this type of "passionate" work. Games like Shards Online, Camelot Unchained, Albion Online, The Repopulation, Shroud of the Avatar, Pantheon. All great examples of games that simply would not exist in development today without crowdfunding. Why? Because the market is seriously limited.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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I don't see why we would need another project that does the exact same thing, that would only split up the base that's actually interested in the game.
Everquest Next will be nothing like the the previous games.
Cool, I actually didn't know that. Thanks for the update. That's just new, though, right? Like month-old news?
I know that when they were initially funding the game they had a possible pledge of like $200k or something ridiculous, but it fell through. I wonder if it came from the same place.
Regardless, I'm not disagreeing with you. Even you said yourself that as long as they're ok with limited profits, then they can be successful, which answers the OPs question, imo.
For the record, I did back Pantheon during its KS. I haven't since, but will probably play it. I just think that the current model is very indicative of how niche a market it really is ($100 minimum pledge, subscription model, etc.). I just don't see the value there, really.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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