The grind is because we be bombarded with quest over the past 11 years. Forced questing while more tolerable to grinding mobs has been done 10 billion times and as someone here said is mechanical. I made another post about MMORPG being refined to the point of pointlessness. You log on, create a character, get sent to introductory quest and quest x50 times with some dungeon and esports mixed in. This is could be 90% of all post 2004 MMORPG.
I think going towards the adventure side of things where only required quest would be class quest to get your abilities. Grinds can be automatic and optional. Quest should be there to enhance not a barrier to your progression or its going to a chore. Quest = progression is a bad thing in my opinion. I rather the game be about the journey than the journey being an obstacle to fleshing out your character. I want to see what X ability is like... well better blow through this story.
You can make everything a lot more difficult. Almost Dark Souls style. Instead of "grinding" 100 monsters all day, conquer 3 of them. Make areas or dungeons exceedingly difficult with save points but get easier and easier as you fail so you'll eventually get through (but not for nearly as much XP). Reset difficulty over time so you can always come back to them at higher level and try to beat it on the first (most valuable) try. You still make XP just for trying them and more for how well you do so its never a waste of time but far more satisfying then spamming 4 keys all day.
Instead of 50 quest markers when I enter town. Make me go around and pick up the 3, or I can only have one major and 3 minor quests at a time. Those quests take a long time. They involve going to distant places, doing complicated things that only have a small part involving fighting to get to the next step which is also takes some time to figure out. Its a quest not an errand. Players in your group should get XP bonus when you complete a step in your quest (You get XP at every little step!) but they don't get your quest automatically.
Quests and what mobs are spawning where should have a random and world scope to them. Dragons used to be in the XYZ mountains but no longer, now there are goblins there because of "Story"
I get what you both are saying, but we all know that we will end up hearing the same argument regardless.
Minimizing or creating adventures will be rolled into as another excuse to be called a grind.
If people find certain content a grind that content was not designed for them. Grind is completely subjective. Like @VengeSunsoar stated make more content available that a wider audience will like.
Some gamers think the leveling process is a grind to get to the PvP/Raids, so why not have the option of starting with a max level character.
Some just play for the story so give them XP boosts so they don't need to do the filler quests. etc.
How can grind be subjective if you are forced to "grind" in order to progress? The content is designed that way so if you try to take your sweet time (like i do) it either drives you insane and you quit the game (like i do) or it makes you spend extra money to ease the grind a little bit.
That is the sad way of running mmos, but currently there is no viable way to keep a playerbase happy and enganged with enough content so they have to force the grind upon us.
I personally quit the game when i start to feel the grind. I keep playing for as long as im having fun doing content. If the repetition becomes tedious or ridiculous i uninstall rapidly.
What you may find tedious or ridiculous I may find fun and entertaining. So yes, I can agree with @immodium that it is subjective.
If people find certain content a grind that content was not designed for them. Grind is completely subjective. Like @VengeSunsoar stated make more content available that a wider audience will like.
Some gamers think the leveling process is a grind to get to the PvP/Raids, so why not have the option of starting with a max level character.
Some just play for the story so give them XP boosts so they don't need to do the filler quests. etc.
How can grind be subjective if you are forced to "grind" in order to progress? The content is designed that way so if you try to take your sweet time (like i do) it either drives you insane and you quit the game (like i do) or it makes you spend extra money to ease the grind a little bit.
That is the sad way of running mmos, but currently there is no viable way to keep a playerbase happy and enganged with enough content so they have to force the grind upon us.
I personally quit the game when i start to feel the grind. I keep playing for as long as im having fun doing content. If the repetition becomes tedious or ridiculous i uninstall rapidly.
I don't mind repetitive tasks as long as im not forced to do them. if that makes sense.
I used to grind mobs all the time in WoW for rep gains and I didn't mind it one bit because I wanted whatever achievement I was going for. I think of those as a side game. not needed to play the actual game.
but if a game were to make me do the same thing over and over for hours and hours just to progress to the next area or level. then I might have a problem. "Life is Feudal" is very grindy imo. (it's also really fun sometimes)
The grind is because we be bombarded with quest over the past 11 years. Forced questing while more tolerable to grinding mobs has been done 10 billion times and as someone here said is mechanical. I made another post about MMORPG being refined to the point of pointlessness. You log on, create a character, get sent to introductory quest and quest x50 times with some dungeon and esports mixed in. This is could be 90% of all post 2004 MMORPG.
I think going towards the adventure side of things where only required quest would be class quest to get your abilities. Grinds can be automatic and optional. Quest should be there to enhance not a barrier to your progression or its going to a chore. Quest = progression is a bad thing in my opinion. I rather the game be about the journey than the journey being an obstacle to fleshing out your character. I want to see what X ability is like... well better blow through this story.
You can make everything a lot more difficult. Almost Dark Souls style. Instead of "grinding" 100 monsters all day, conquer 3 of them. Make areas or dungeons exceedingly difficult with save points but get easier and easier as you fail so you'll eventually get through (but not for nearly as much XP). Reset difficulty over time so you can always come back to them at higher level and try to beat it on the first (most valuable) try. You still make XP just for trying them and more for how well you do so its never a waste of time but far more satisfying then spamming 4 keys all day.
Instead of 50 quest markers when I enter town. Make me go around and pick up the 3, or I can only have one major and 3 minor quests at a time. Those quests take a long time. They involve going to distant places, doing complicated things that only have a small part involving fighting to get to the next step which is also takes some time to figure out. Its a quest not an errand. Players in your group should get XP bonus when you complete a step in your quest (You get XP at every little step!) but they don't get your quest automatically.
Quests and what mobs are spawning where should have a random and world scope to them. Dragons used to be in the XYZ mountains but no longer, now there are goblins there because of "Story"
I get what you both are saying, but we all know that we will end up hearing the same argument regardless.
Minimizing or creating adventures will be rolled into as another excuse to be called a grind.
I think the problem is our adventure is chosen and then forced on us to progress. If your adventure isn't linear and everyone can do most of your content when and why they want... the game is better for it. Even World of Warcraft seems to be going this route with deleveling to content. Why even bother with the levels and just not aim for gaining abilities through very specific and detail rites of passage quest. You save on fluff quest to justify your leveling 1-whatever.
Lots of variety and content. Its only a grind if you are "working" towards a goal. When it doesn't feel like work because its fun and varied content then you aren't grinding.
There are 2 parts to grind. 1. Is repetitive - this is objective (not going to get into how repetitive something needs to be).
2. Tediousness/boredom - This is subjective. If you are not bored by it, it is not a grind.
Therefore you cannot get rid of grind 100% all you can do is offer varied activities.
There are two parts to a jackass. 1. Is a person - this is objective. 2. Dickish behavior - this is subjective.
Therefore you cannot get rid of jackasses 100% because people exist.
Where I'm headed there might be unclear,so let's grab the dictionary definition, since the gamer usage of the word has been granted legitimate lexicon status.
Digital Technology. (in a video game) to perform a monotonous task repeatedly in order to advance a character to a higher level or rank:
You have to grind for hours before you can embark on the main story mission. (source)
Grind isn't repeating something. It is repeating a monotonous task. Simply repeating a task isn't grind. As narius said, the subjective part is whether or not it is fun. If the player finds it fun, there is no grind for them. If they do not find it fun, there is a grind for them.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Exactly what a I stated, just using different words. Perform a monotonous task repeatedly. 2 parts 1. is repetitive. 2. is boring - monotonous.
Exactly what a I stated, just using different words. Perform a monotonous task repeatedly. 2 parts 1. is repetitive. 2. is boring - monotonous.
edit - that's not just the gamer definition. Gamers chose the word based on other real world activities. Grinding stone, metal, wheat... it's all the same, a repetitive monotonous task.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Grind isn't the same as repeating. People can do things repeatedly and not be bored by it. Grind is when you find something to be a chore, doing something you find dull over and over.
People don't have a problem repeating the same content if it's fun.
Gamers in Themepark games get tired of the old content all the time. Always expecting new content, which developers can't keep up with.
Gamers in ALL games, you mean.
Well, in a proper sandbox there should be enough toys to keep you from doing the same thing over and over.
The grind is there to keep you from blowing through all of the content the dev has released before the next content patch. For them making less content with more grind is far more profitable since profitability increases over time.
If people find certain content a grind that content was not designed for them. Grind is completely subjective. Like @VengeSunsoar stated make more content available that a wider audience will like.
Some gamers think the leveling process is a grind to get to the PvP/Raids, so why not have the option of starting with a max level character.
Some just play for the story so give them XP boosts so they don't need to do the filler quests. etc.
How can grind be subjective if you are forced to "grind" in order to progress? The content is designed that way so if you try to take your sweet time (like i do) it either drives you insane and you quit the game (like i do) or it makes you spend extra money to ease the grind a little bit.
That is the sad way of running mmos, but currently there is no viable way to keep a playerbase happy and enganged with enough content so they have to force the grind upon us.
I personally quit the game when i start to feel the grind. I keep playing for as long as im having fun doing content. If the repetition becomes tedious or ridiculous i uninstall rapidly.
Grind isn't the same as repeating. People can do things repeatedly and
not be bored by it. Grind is when you find something to be a chore,
doing something you find dull over and over.
People don't have a problem repeating the same content if it's fun.
You're only half right. Yes they're repeating the same content but they find it fun. Where as you find it dull.
Grind is never really used to explain a fun activity you repeat.
There are 2 parts to grind. 1. Is repetitive - this is objective (not going to get into how repetitive something needs to be).
2. Tediousness/boredom - This is subjective. If you are not bored by it, it is not a grind.
Therefore you cannot get rid of grind 100% all you can do is offer varied activities.
1: doing something for the 3rd time is the start of repetition. 2: I fall into number 2. I rarely get bored as there is far too many interesting things in the real world. If I feel boredom coming up, I change what I am doing.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Make the grind enjoyable so it's not a grind. Any game I start to play that isn't fun from the start I stop playing. I'm too old to screw around with 'the grind' so if you make it fun I will play, if not I will take my money elsewhere.
If people find certain content a grind that content was not designed for them. Grind is completely subjective. Like @VengeSunsoar stated make more content available that a wider audience will like.
Some gamers think the leveling process is a grind to get to the PvP/Raids, so why not have the option of starting with a max level character.
Some just play for the story so give them XP boosts so they don't need to do the filler quests. etc.
How can grind be subjective if you are forced to "grind" in order to progress? The content is designed that way so if you try to take your sweet time (like i do) it either drives you insane and you quit the game (like i do) or it makes you spend extra money to ease the grind a little bit.
That is the sad way of running mmos, but currently there is no viable way to keep a playerbase happy and enganged with enough content so they have to force the grind upon us.
I personally quit the game when i start to feel the grind. I keep playing for as long as im having fun doing content. If the repetition becomes tedious or ridiculous i uninstall rapidly.
Grind isn't the same as repeating. People can do things repeatedly and
not be bored by it. Grind is when you find something to be a chore,
doing something you find dull over and over.
People don't have a problem repeating the same content if it's fun.
You're only half right. Yes they're repeating the same content but they find it fun. Where as you find it dull.
Grind is never really used to explain a fun activity you repeat.
Not that I disagree with you, but what happens when the content you enjoy becomes useless for XP and character advancement? For most gamers it means they are >forced< to move on to the next level's content.
Not that that actually happens all that much, what with the desire for advancement (in game terms) being what it is.
Not that I disagree with you, but what happens when the content you enjoy becomes useless for XP and character advancement? For most gamers it means they are >forced< to move on to the next level's content.
Not that that actually happens all that much, what with the desire for advancement (in game terms) being what it is.
If they like character advancement why would they be forced to move on to the next level of character advancement/content? Unless I'm misunderstanding the question.
In most MMO's the people who like to group/pvp and find that content fun
are fine as endgame is primarily about either PvP/group PvE. It's probably a solo
players problem by and large where they cant advance their character
without being forced to play content they're not interested in.
If the new level of content isn't interesting to them however I'd presume they'd roll a new character to advance if they found the game fun. Which some do.
If you're not into rolling alts I'd hope any sane person would stop playing the game and find a new one to play when they find it a "grind".
Not that I disagree with you, but what happens when the content you enjoy becomes useless for XP and character advancement? For most gamers it means they are >forced< to move on to the next level's content.
Not that that actually happens all that much, what with the desire for advancement (in game terms) being what it is.
If they like character advancement why would they be forced to move on to the next level of character advancement/content? Unless I'm misunderstanding the question.
If the new level of content isn't interesting to them however I'd presume they'd roll a new character to advance if they found the game fun. Which some do.
If you're not into rolling alts I'd hope any sane person would stop playing the game and find a new one to play when they find it a "grind".
"what happens when the content you enjoy becomesuseless for XP and character advancement?"
Most MMO Themepark games are like this.I don't know of any game anymore that doesn't at least slow down advancement that's a degree lower than your skill/level. But that's not saying much since I haven't played an MMO in a few years.
Not that I disagree with you, but what happens when the content you enjoy becomes useless for XP and character advancement? For most gamers it means they are >forced< to move on to the next level's content.
Play another game? Find one the fun activities and progression coincide?
Not that I disagree with you, but what happens when the content you enjoy becomes useless for XP and character advancement? For most gamers it means they are >forced< to move on to the next level's content.
Play another game? Find one the fun activities and progression coincide?
I think you're speaking in more general terms than I. You are that kind of gamer, I take it, where as I have more specific desires in my gaming.
In every Themepark (almost all by my definition) game I've played, there were specific regions, dungeons, or over-world content that I really liked. But I was forced to move on for advancement. Also simply for "new", but I always wished I could return and still have "challenge" to some degree. Which is, of course, impossible in today's games.
Yes, there are games in development that might serve this purpose. But they also have things I really can't accept, like PtW or wide open PvP with no breaks on the wagon.
So I'm lost, waiting for someone to get it all right on the major aspects. And I can't understand for the life of me why it's so damned difficult.
I think you're speaking in more general terms than I. You are that kind of gamer, I take it, where as I have more specific desires in my gaming.
In every Themepark (almost all by my definition) game I've played, there were specific regions, dungeons, or over-world content that I really liked. But I was forced to move on for advancement. Also simply for "new", but I always wished I could return and still have "challenge" to some degree. Which is, of course, impossible in today's games.
Yes, there are games in development that might serve this purpose. But they also have things I really can't accept, like PtW or wide open PvP with no breaks on the wagon.
So I'm lost, waiting for someone to get it all right on the major aspects. And I can't understand for the life of me why it's so damned difficult.
Ah, gotcha. You want the content you find fun to level as you do, like Skyrim/Fallout etc. Not like GW2 where they de-level you to that zone as you're not progressing. Or LOTRO's turtle stone where it disabled XP completely so you can enjoy zones with some challenge.
Surely something like that would have to be instanced.
I think you're speaking in more general terms than I. You are that kind of gamer, I take it, where as I have more specific desires in my gaming.
In every Themepark (almost all by my definition) game I've played, there were specific regions, dungeons, or over-world content that I really liked. But I was forced to move on for advancement. Also simply for "new", but I always wished I could return and still have "challenge" to some degree. Which is, of course, impossible in today's games.
Yes, there are games in development that might serve this purpose. But they also have things I really can't accept, like PtW or wide open PvP with no breaks on the wagon.
So I'm lost, waiting for someone to get it all right on the major aspects. And I can't understand for the life of me why it's so damned difficult.
Ah, gotcha. You want the content you find fun to level as you do, like Skyrim/Fallout etc. Not like GW2 where they de-level you to that zone as you're not progressing. Or LOTRO's turtle stone where it disabled XP completely so you can enjoy zones with some challenge.
Surely something like that would have to be instanced.
No, it wouldn't have to be instanced. I don't like instances. That's not "worldly".
This is why I don't like the power gaps. That's the problem that causes this.
With that being said: A.) I do see advancement as desirable.
B.) I think it's possible to do advancement that is "small" in general but more exciting in specific "specials" that aren't overpowering. Basically adding tiers to combos and special abilities that are just fun while adding more choices. And thus being the true power gains, limited by use (stamina loss, resource cost, etc.)
C.) I do see a need for "scaling" in my ideas. But I want that to be done through more worldly means. In other words, instead of simply spawning more or more powerful MOBs, the MOBs themselves "call" more to them, from a "resource reserve" that becomes playable. For example, a dungeon room where the MOBs, using AI, can call for help from the rest of the dungeon (or specific regions, next room, whatever). Using a tool, such as a gong or horn, or pulling a chord. Where players have the possibility to stop such a "call". Or even use it to draw out MOBs and deminish this "resource" from the dungeon.
People got it right with variety but unless you vary the variety, then that wears off too.
Take the wow fishing, cooking dailies etc. You grind them to improve your prof and there are about 5 or 6 of each in a city. But it's been like that forever. Would it hurt to bring in news ones for each expac?
The there are the seasonal activities like Hallows End. Well it was variety the first, maybe the second year, but they just get repeated. You think with a year between some of them, you'd get something different next time around? The Faerie thing is every few weeks and never changes. At least it hadn't when I quit 3 months after WoD. Boring!
Comments
Minimizing or creating adventures will be rolled into as another excuse to be called a grind.
That is the sad way of running mmos, but currently there is no viable way to keep a playerbase happy and enganged with enough content so they have to force the grind upon us.
I personally quit the game when i start to feel the grind. I keep playing for as long as im having fun doing content. If the repetition becomes tedious or ridiculous i uninstall rapidly.
I don't mind repetitive tasks as long as im not forced to do them. if that makes sense.
I used to grind mobs all the time in WoW for rep gains and I didn't mind it one bit because I wanted whatever achievement I was going for. I think of those as a side game. not needed to play the actual game.
but if a game were to make me do the same thing over and over for hours and hours just to progress to the next area or level. then I might have a problem. "Life is Feudal" is very grindy imo. (it's also really fun sometimes)
1. Is repetitive - this is objective (not going to get into how repetitive something needs to be).
2. Tediousness/boredom - This is subjective. If you are not bored by it, it is not a grind.
Therefore you cannot get rid of grind 100% all you can do is offer varied activities.
Some people like running D3 dungeons again and again .... some don't.
1. Is a person - this is objective.
2. Dickish behavior - this is subjective.
Therefore you cannot get rid of jackasses 100% because people exist.
Where I'm headed there might be unclear,so let's grab the dictionary definition, since the gamer usage of the word has been granted legitimate lexicon status.
Digital Technology. (in a video game) to perform a monotonous task
repeatedly in order to advance a character to a higher level or rank:
Grind isn't repeating something. It is repeating a monotonous task. Simply repeating a task isn't grind. As narius said, the subjective part is whether or not it is fun. If the player finds it fun, there is no grind for them. If they do not find it fun, there is a grind for them.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Exactly what a I stated, just using different words. Perform a monotonous task repeatedly. 2 parts 1. is repetitive. 2. is boring - monotonous.
edit - that's not just the gamer definition. Gamers chose the word based on other real world activities. Grinding stone, metal, wheat... it's all the same, a repetitive monotonous task.
There isn't anything wrong with grinding. It is even a part of everyday life.
As others have said the key is too add variety. Best way to do that is anyone's guess.
The grind is there to keep you from blowing through all of the content the dev has released before the next content patch. For them making less content with more grind is far more profitable since profitability increases over time.
You're only half right. Yes they're repeating the same content but they find it fun. Where as you find it dull.
Grind is never really used to explain a fun activity you repeat.
1: doing something for the 3rd time is the start of repetition.
2: I fall into number 2. I rarely get bored as there is far too many interesting things in the real world. If I feel boredom coming up, I change what I am doing.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
You're competing with the pros, aged AAA titles. They've had years to develop lots of variety, and the consumer populace is used to having it.
Good luck.
Not that that actually happens all that much, what with the desire for advancement (in game terms) being what it is.
Once upon a time....
In most MMO's the people who like to group/pvp and find that content fun are fine as endgame is primarily about either PvP/group PvE. It's probably a solo players problem by and large where they cant advance their character without being forced to play content they're not interested in.
If the new level of content isn't interesting to them however I'd presume they'd roll a new character to advance if they found the game fun. Which some do.
If you're not into rolling alts I'd hope any sane person would stop playing the game and find a new one to play when they find it a "grind".
Most MMO Themepark games are like this. I don't know of any game anymore that doesn't at least slow down advancement that's a degree lower than your skill/level. But that's not saying much since I haven't played an MMO in a few years.
Once upon a time....
You are that kind of gamer, I take it, where as I have more specific desires in my gaming.
In every Themepark (almost all by my definition) game I've played, there were specific regions, dungeons, or over-world content that I really liked. But I was forced to move on for advancement. Also simply for "new", but I always wished I could return and still have "challenge" to some degree. Which is, of course, impossible in today's games.
Yes, there are games in development that might serve this purpose. But they also have things I really can't accept, like PtW or wide open PvP with no breaks on the wagon.
So I'm lost, waiting for someone to get it all right on the major aspects. And I can't understand for the life of me why it's so damned difficult.
Once upon a time....
Surely something like that would have to be instanced.
This is why I don't like the power gaps. That's the problem that causes this.
With that being said:
A.) I do see advancement as desirable.
B.) I think it's possible to do advancement that is "small" in general but more exciting in specific "specials" that aren't overpowering. Basically adding tiers to combos and special abilities that are just fun while adding more choices. And thus being the true power gains, limited by use (stamina loss, resource cost, etc.)
C.) I do see a need for "scaling" in my ideas. But I want that to be done through more worldly means. In other words, instead of simply spawning more or more powerful MOBs, the MOBs themselves "call" more to them, from a "resource reserve" that becomes playable.
For example, a dungeon room where the MOBs, using AI, can call for help from the rest of the dungeon (or specific regions, next room, whatever). Using a tool, such as a gong or horn, or pulling a chord.
Where players have the possibility to stop such a "call". Or even use it to draw out MOBs and deminish this "resource" from the dungeon.
Once upon a time....
Take the wow fishing, cooking dailies etc. You grind them to improve your prof and there are about 5 or 6 of each in a city. But it's been like that forever. Would it hurt to bring in news ones for each expac?
The there are the seasonal activities like Hallows End. Well it was variety the first, maybe the second year, but they just get repeated. You think with a year between some of them, you'd get something different next time around? The Faerie thing is every few weeks and never changes. At least it hadn't when I quit 3 months after WoD. Boring!