I don't like bots, but I really hope Blizzard crashes and burns on this one. 'Copyright infringement?' Give me a break. It probably technically is, but that's why our copyright laws need massive overhauling - HE created this program. Costing tens of millions? Yeah, right. Good luck trying to convince me of that. 'Costing good will?' Blizzard does that just fine on its own. The only reasonable part is the violation of ToS, but that should never be grounds for a massive lawsuit.
I get it, bots suck, but that doesn't mean it's right to try to make this guy pay Blizzard an huge sum of money.
On top of which I don't think companies should be allowed to scan processes. It's an invasion of privacy. Someone should come up with a way to hide processes from scanners. The only way I know of for doing it requires a lot of wasted processing power.
If I were the judge in this case, I would throw the case out and issue a court order that flying be automatic in all new zones from hence forth.
I don't like bots, but I really hope Blizzard crashes and burns on this one. 'Copyright infringement?' Give me a break. It probably technically is, but that's why our copyright laws need massive overhauling - HE created this program. Costing tens of millions? Yeah, right. Good luck trying to convince me of that. 'Costing good will?' Blizzard does that just fine on its own. The only reasonable part is the violation of ToS, but that should never be grounds for a massive lawsuit.
I get it, bots suck, but that doesn't mean it's right to try to make this guy pay Blizzard an huge sum of money.
On top of which I don't think companies should be allowed to scan processes. It's an invasion of privacy. Someone should come up with a way to hide processes from scanners. The only way I know of for doing it requires a lot of wasted processing power.
If I were the judge in this case, I would throw the case out and issue a court order that flying be automatic in all new zones from hence forth.
if this guy made money using Blizzard owned copyrights or trademarks i.e. WoW, Diablo, Heroes of the Storm, then he did so illegally.
I also don't see the "tens of millions" that astronomical. im sure blizzard has paid employees for tracking and finding bots. possibly others that develop or have developed software to minimize the bots. then there are the forum mods and customer service that have to deal with the people complaining about said bots. time is money.
Hope they sue him for everything he's got. Gold Sellers/Bots are the bane of online gaming and the people behind them are leeches sucking the life out of mmo's.
Blame the person creating bots or blame the company for not providing adequate regulation and protection against bots?
... seriously, is there really a question which is right? Billion dollar company going after an individual is disgusting and perpetuates corporate control over what is "right" and what is "wrong." I guess all of you have never used a torrent program or any other program that allows you to download illegal software? Derp.
Use the tissue in your skulls, people.
Blame BOTH and the Players that used the Bot.
The Bot Maker is wrong for making the Bots in violation of the EULA and TOS, and Blizzard is wrong for not giving their product the care it deserved and for not caring about their Customers which presented the window of opportunity for the Bot Maker and the Player Users of the Bots to do what they did.
There's plenty of wrong doing to go around. My grey matter has no problem seeing that at all.
(this is of course my opinion and if I was Judge of this case you can guess what I would have to say about this case.)
This is a test case and honestly, I hope they wreck this guy.
Certain bots are do minimal damage (leveling bots etc) but this one went way over the top.
People here arguing whether they can win or not is kinda stupid, Blizzard and activision are monster companies with the best lawyers in the business. If they think they can win, they have a good chance of winning.
" has cost the gaming giant millions of dollars in lost revenue" Bullshit. Millions of dollars? How? Specifically talking about WoW any gold sold third party was never theirs to beging with. Made people unsub is bullshit, doubt there are that many that care or notice not to say there isn't many crybabies on this forum so it might not appear so in here. Bots are aids, just don't overblow shit.
Bots are annoying know doubt, but honestly they normally dont really affect my game.
Now FPS hackers? thats another story, and I hope this starts a new trend for gameing companies to start laying the smack down on these hacker sites that are destroying good FPS games.
" has cost the gaming giant millions of dollars in lost revenue" Bullshit. Millions of dollars? How? Specifically talking about WoW any gold sold third party was never theirs to beging with. Made people unsub is bullshit, doubt there are that many that care or notice not to say there isn't many crybabies on this forum so it might not appear so in here. Bots are aids, just don't overblow shit.
This isn't just wow, it's wow, D3 and heroes of the storm.
Keep in mind that Blizzard has done this numerous times before and won them all, i think this is the 3rd time and then won the 2 previous ones.
ROFL! Blizzard acting up as if the massive drop in subscribers is due to botting, than on their abysmal lack of care and content for its game.
Ha! *points finger meme*
Botting has kept me from playing many games. So, yeah I can see how a paid subscriber decided to quit over this issue that has plagued many games.
It's not Blizzards first rodeo, they have the funding to squash a shitty small business owner.
I am ok with a shitty owner getting what he/she deserves.
Bossland GmbH are not bothered about the lawsuit as they have claimed ownership of "the software" or maybe the core of the software.
Enright, maybe, have customised the software and - presumably - sold it to people. As they don't play WoW then ToS and EULA's don't have any bearing. So distributor or creator?
Obviously Blizzard can detect the bots but why didn't a) they tell Enright to stop 5 years ago b) ban botters much earlier? The cynic in me wonders whether gold farmers were not deemed competition 5 years ago and putting effort into gathering the evidence etc. would have cost Blizzard money now. Now that Blizzard are a gold seller .....
Not acting earlier will count against them. The fact that Enright are not using the software lands you in the: is it the manufacturer and/or the seller or just the end user at fault? (Guns are the ones that classically fall into this cess pool).
So hard to say whether this will make any headway. If Enright's products can only be used with a specific game I assume they will have a case, whether it will fly ....?
The solution I liked best was Respawn's (Titanfall) - using EA's bot detection software: all the botters got moved onto a bot only server. Simple, elegant. Blizzard - I am sure - could have done this and still could; tied accounts tagged as botters to specific servers (farming gold and offering it to each other to their heart's content). (And preventing the millions of future losses they suggest to boot). But this would have / will require extra resource; spend - shock - some extra money; make the game better for players. A better solution as well since - even if they win this one there will probably be another. But legal costs - they will assume they can cover them via costs.
I don't like bots, but I really hope Blizzard crashes and burns on this one. 'Copyright infringement?' Give me a break. It probably technically is, but that's why our copyright laws need massive overhauling - HE created this program. Costing tens of millions? Yeah, right. Good luck trying to convince me of that. 'Costing good will?' Blizzard does that just fine on its own. The only reasonable part is the violation of ToS, but that should never be grounds for a massive lawsuit.
I get it, bots suck, but that doesn't mean it's right to try to make this guy pay Blizzard an huge sum of money.
On top of which I don't think companies should be allowed to scan processes. It's an invasion of privacy. Someone should come up with a way to hide processes from scanners. The only way I know of for doing it requires a lot of wasted processing power.
If I were the judge in this case, I would throw the case out and issue a court order that flying be automatic in all new zones from hence forth.
Wow... Just... Wow... Really?! If it technically is, then it is. Nobody needs to convince you, Blizzard needs to convince a judge. Companies aren't allowed to scan your processes, unless you give them permission to do so. So it isn't an invasion of privacy. Simple way to hide processes from scanners? Don't give scanners permission to be on your machine.
I'm glad you're not a judge in this case. Or a judge period.
I always say that players resort to botting a game when the act of actually playing it is no longer justified.
Irrelevant. You'd be surprised how many games other find interests and love for playing it, yet some portion of the players "resort" to botting. It's human nature; if there's money involved, they will try to take it however they can, have nothing to do with individual aspect of the game and botting deteriorate game's value faster than you can imagine.
I doubt it will even make a dent. By now there's probably mods of the mods of the bot. Shutting down the bot will be like shutting the hatch after the Submarine dove. Shutting the hatch is good but the compartment is still flooded.
However I still think this should go to trial, if for no other reason than to make Bot writers think twice before infesting a MMO with their handiworks.
While I like the idea of going after the drug lords rather than the drug addicts and stopping the problem at it's source. My question would be, how many of these drug lords are out there and will taking one down be enough to make the others tuck tail and run?
Well it is not enough, they shut down 2 bot making sites just year ago but the bot makers came back with far superior botting programs. The only real way to stop it is to run a server side script to detect wrong player movement pattern but that will create at the very least 50 millisecond more latency, let's not even go to maximum. So the only logical way any game developer have is to attack the people who are making bots. Which only works maybe at most for a year...
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Not to be a devil's advocate.. but I'm going to be...
What right do you idiots have to tell me that I can't bot? I don't want to play their lame attempt at story-driven drivel. If I want to bot my way up to level 100 of content that's been recycled and rehashed 100000 times, why can't I?
It's just like microtransactions. If I want to pay 2000 bucks to be ahead of you.. so be it. You know the game is going to allow it, so don't get your panties in a bunch.
Don't like it? Don't play.
My "fun" is just as important as your "fun". It just so happens that my "fun" isn't grinding endlessly. I'd rather my computer do that so I can sit down in Barrens chat and LOLOLOLO at all the n00bs not botting and crying about it.
I always say that players resort to botting a game when the act of actually playing it is no longer justified.
Some players can't play as mcuh as others due work/etc. Some find it satisfying to bot multiple accounts and earn lots of currency. You'd be surprised how many accounts I botted on Silkroad and sold for real money, it is extremelly satisfying.
ROFL! Blizzard acting up as if the massive drop in subscribers is due to botting, than on their abysmal lack of care and content for its game.
Ha! *points finger meme*
Botting has kept me from playing many games. So, yeah I can see how a paid subscriber decided to quit over this issue that has plagued many games.
It's not Blizzards first rodeo, they have the funding to squash a shitty small business owner.
I am ok with a shitty owner getting what he/she deserves.
I absolutely agree. Botting was the reason I quit Lineage. It was rampant and affected the game dramatically. It's the sole reason we have to deal with anti-cheat/hack software which is a nasty piece of work we have to deal with.
This guy isn't running some benevolent wiki or plug-in. He's selling bot software to cheaters at the expense of the honest players. He doesn't care for the game or the community. He's selfish and hopefully his bot career will be ending soon.
The question really is should the people making these bots be responsible for the actions of those using them?
Really a bot is software that in of itself isn't illegal.
For example Hi-Point Firearms is the manufacturer that makes the model C-9 handgun.
It is commonly used in crimes so should Hi-Point be responsible and sued each time a crime is committed using these weapons or should the people using them be sued/held responsible?
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Bot makers makes it clear how to use the bots with specific games and how to set it up and what you can do with it even some advertise the fact that you will make huge amounts of golds etc, they even go against the tos and eula by finding new ways to go around the new patches and security updates the game makers do and advertise it in there forums, on there websites or in there patch updates.
Telling people bots makers don't do those bots without knowledge or even a remote idea of what the bot will be use for is just crazy and stupid. They make the bots for that purpose only!!!!! And everyone knows that.
For those that say " who are you to tell me how to play the game " Well sorry buddy you should have read there tos and eula before playing the freaking game in the first place and also we are in 2015 so everyone knows 99% of game makers have the same parts in there tos and eula when it comes to botting or hacking with some small difference but not far from each others. There is no excuse for the bots makers or users.
Also players that do use them still gets the ban hammer or suspension so they do get penalized so now it is time to go to the source of the issue and make sure they get the makers of those programs.
ROFL! Blizzard acting up as if the massive drop in subscribers is due to botting, than on their abysmal lack of care and content for its game.
Ha! *points finger meme*
Botting has kept me from playing many games. So, yeah I can see how a paid subscriber decided to quit over this issue that has plagued many games.
It's not Blizzards first rodeo, they have the funding to squash a shitty small business owner.
I am ok with a shitty owner getting what he/she deserves.
I absolutely agree. Botting was the reason I quit Lineage. It was rampant and affected the game dramatically. It's the sole reason we have to deal with anti-cheat/hack software which is a nasty piece of work we have to deal with.
This guy isn't running some benevolent wiki or plug-in. He's selling bot software to cheaters at the expense of the honest players. He doesn't care for the game or the community. He's selfish and hopefully his bot career will be ending soon.
The question really is should the people making these bots be responsible for the actions of those using them?
Really a bot is software that in of itself isn't illegal.
For example Hi-Point Firearms is the manufacturer that makes the model C-9 handgun.
It is commonly used in crimes so should Hi-Point be responsible and sued each time a crime is committed using these weapons or should the people using them be sued/held responsible?
They should be held responsible, but not solely to blame. The users of the software are culpable as well.
The botting software isn't bad in and of itself. Selling it for use to cheat at the expense of other paying customers and the possible financial loss to the company is, or should be. I'm not a lawyer so that would be an interesting answer to find out.
Sometimes the creator of something used to do harm is partly responsible and sometimes they are not. Maybe intent has a lot to do with that.
I think the gun analogy doesn't fit well here. For one they have non-criminal uses. Another point is that some people believe the manufacturer should be held partly responsible. Finally a merchant irresponsibly providing that firearm could be held responsible. In the case of this software and how it's sold is on shaky legal ground at best, if not outright illegal.
While your entitled to your opinion it's very clear legally companies making guns are not being held accountable for the actions of people using the guns otherwise they would all be bankrupt right now.
Another example.... Cheat Engine is software that allows you to hack games, so why are they still running? Why have they not been sued due to action of people using the software?
Dunno but shouldn't the people using the bots be held accountable for the monetary losses of blizzard since well they are the ones using the bots?
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
The curses of so many normal users affected by botting in one way or another caught up with this guy. Even so, I wouldn't want Blizz's lawyer team on my worst enemy.
Another example.... Cheat Engine is software that allows you to hack games, so why are they still running? Why have they not been sued due to action of people using the software?
Because with multiplayer online games, the issue isn't the hacking of a personal-use product. It is the adverse effect on a multi-user service. While on the surface they may seem the same, they are distinctly different scenarios.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Another example.... Cheat Engine is software that allows you to hack games, so why are they still running? Why have they not been sued due to action of people using the software?
Because with multiplayer online games, the issue isn't the hacking of a personal-use product. It is the adverse effect on a multi-user service. While on the surface they may seem the same, they are distinctly different scenarios.
I yeah I can see how could be viewed as different scenarios.
For the record I am not saying it's okay to cheat in mmo...I personally stay away from lots of pvp mmos because cheating is rampant so don't get the wrong impression that I think it is morally okay to do this and ruin peoples fun. I am just curious how the legalities of it work.
The article had an update which has me a little confused as to who blizzard is actually suing?
Zwetan Letschew, CEO of Bossland GmbH, informs TorrentFreak that his
company owns and operates the software Blizzard mentions in the lawsuit.
“Apoc is neither the owner nor the creator of Honorbuddy, Demonbuddy
and Stormbuddy. The trademarks belong to Bossland GmbH, the software
belongs to Bossland GmbH, a German company created by two shareholders
in 2009.”
“Apoc is not a shareholder or a decision giver at Bossland GmbH, Apoc is not even an employee of Bossland GmbH.”
“I find it funny, no not even funny, but ridiculous for a company of
this size, to go after and mention publicly people, that are at best
random freelancers, keeping in mind that they sued the creator of the
software in question in Germany.”
In addition, Letschew refers to an expert opinion which show that Honorbuddy does not harm WOW or Blizzard.
"Bossland GmbH (https://www.thebuddyforum.com/), creater of bot
software for several MMOs, has won the lawsuit against Blizzard
Entertainment S.A.S, creator of World of Warcraft and Diablo III.
Blizzard had argued that the sale of virtual currency “Gold” in the game
Diablo 3 is anti-competitive. The judges of the Civil Division of the
Hanseatic Higher Regional Court considered this question with reference
to Federal Court of Justice of Germany case law and it recommended the
applicant to withdraw the application for an injunction.
"On 6 May 2013 The Hamburg Regional Court had issued a temporary
injunction without a hearing and thereby ruled that the defendant
(Bossland GmbH) have to refrain, without the consent of the applicant to
operate a gold-trading website for the game Diablo III.
"On 7 May 2015 (3 U 45/14), the Civil Division of the Hanseatic
Higher Regional Court disagreed with this order.The court ordered that
the entire costs of the two instances of the process be paid by Blizzard
Entertainment S.A.S.
"'I am pleased that after many years, a Court of Appeal has finally
dealt accurately and in detail with the legal assessment and the key
points of the law has worked out so well for us. I am optimistic that
the federal court will view our other business models as permissible.'
says Zwetan Letschew, CEO of Bossland GmbH expressed.
"Bossland GmbH fights in different legal proceedings against Blizzard
Entertainment S.A.S. and Blizzard Entertainment Inc. These proceedings
have the objective of clarifying various legal questions, for example,
issues of integration of EULA of software bought in shops or at online
retailers and, for example, the legal status of virtual items and issues
of competition law.
"Bossland GmbH is represented in Cases for many years by the lawyers
Marian Härtel, and Dominik Büttner and Carsten Neuhaus from the firm
Kaesler & Kollegen."
If blizzard has to keep up with these kind of ban waves I wonder how much it will affect their player base seeing as these "mods" seem commonly used and rampant in WoW.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
If blizzard has to keep up with these kind of ban waves I wonder how much it will affect their player base seeing as these "mods" seem commonly used and rampant in WoW.
It's a nightmare for everyone. Here's a look at the negative effect botting can have on an MMO (EVE Online). Forget the economy. Look at the charts and see the server resources that are now available to legitimate customers when the bots get kicked to the curb. :
Comments
if this guy made money using Blizzard owned copyrights or trademarks i.e. WoW, Diablo, Heroes of the Storm, then he did so illegally.
I also don't see the "tens of millions" that astronomical. im sure blizzard has paid employees for tracking and finding bots. possibly others that develop or have developed software to minimize the bots. then there are the forum mods and customer service that have to deal with the people complaining about said bots. time is money.
The Bot Maker is wrong for making the Bots in violation of the EULA and TOS, and Blizzard is wrong for not giving their product the care it deserved and for not caring about their Customers which presented the window of opportunity for the Bot Maker and the Player Users of the Bots to do what they did.
There's plenty of wrong doing to go around. My grey matter has no problem seeing that at all.
(this is of course my opinion and if I was Judge of this case you can guess what I would have to say about this case.)
Certain bots are do minimal damage (leveling bots etc) but this one went way over the top.
People here arguing whether they can win or not is kinda stupid, Blizzard and activision are monster companies with the best lawyers in the business. If they think they can win, they have a good chance of winning.
Now FPS hackers? thats another story, and I hope this starts a new trend for gameing companies to start laying the smack down on these hacker sites that are destroying good FPS games.
Keep in mind that Blizzard has done this numerous times before and won them all, i think this is the 3rd time and then won the 2 previous ones.
The last won, they won a settlement for 7 million
It's not Blizzards first rodeo, they have the funding to squash a shitty small business owner.
I am ok with a shitty owner getting what he/she deserves.
Bossland GmbH are not bothered about the lawsuit as they have claimed ownership of "the software" or maybe the core of the software.
Enright, maybe, have customised the software and - presumably - sold it to people. As they don't play WoW then ToS and EULA's don't have any bearing. So distributor or creator?
Obviously Blizzard can detect the bots but why didn't a) they tell Enright to stop 5 years ago b) ban botters much earlier? The cynic in me wonders whether gold farmers were not deemed competition 5 years ago and putting effort into gathering the evidence etc. would have cost Blizzard money now. Now that Blizzard are a gold seller .....
Not acting earlier will count against them. The fact that Enright are not using the software lands you in the: is it the manufacturer and/or the seller or just the end user at fault? (Guns are the ones that classically fall into this cess pool).
So hard to say whether this will make any headway. If Enright's products can only be used with a specific game I assume they will have a case, whether it will fly ....?
The solution I liked best was Respawn's (Titanfall) - using EA's bot detection software: all the botters got moved onto a bot only server. Simple, elegant. Blizzard - I am sure - could have done this and still could; tied accounts tagged as botters to specific servers (farming gold and offering it to each other to their heart's content). (And preventing the millions of future losses they suggest to boot). But this would have / will require extra resource; spend - shock - some extra money; make the game better for players. A better solution as well since - even if they win this one there will probably be another. But legal costs - they will assume they can cover them via costs.
If it technically is, then it is.
Nobody needs to convince you, Blizzard needs to convince a judge.
Companies aren't allowed to scan your processes, unless you give them permission to do so. So it isn't an invasion of privacy.
Simple way to hide processes from scanners? Don't give scanners permission to be on your machine.
I'm glad you're not a judge in this case. Or a judge period.
However I still think this should go to trial, if for no other reason than to make Bot writers think twice before infesting a MMO with their handiworks.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
What right do you idiots have to tell me that I can't bot? I don't want to play their lame attempt at story-driven drivel. If I want to bot my way up to level 100 of content that's been recycled and rehashed 100000 times, why can't I?
It's just like microtransactions. If I want to pay 2000 bucks to be ahead of you.. so be it. You know the game is going to allow it, so don't get your panties in a bunch.
Don't like it? Don't play.
My "fun" is just as important as your "fun". It just so happens that my "fun" isn't grinding endlessly. I'd rather my computer do that so I can sit down in Barrens chat and LOLOLOLO at all the n00bs not botting and crying about it.
asdasdasd
Really a bot is software that in of itself isn't illegal.
For example Hi-Point Firearms is the manufacturer that makes the model C-9 handgun.
It is commonly used in crimes so should Hi-Point be responsible and sued each time a crime is committed using these weapons or should the people using them be sued/held responsible?
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Telling people bots makers don't do those bots without knowledge or even a remote idea of what the bot will be use for is just crazy and stupid. They make the bots for that purpose only!!!!! And everyone knows that.
For those that say " who are you to tell me how to play the game " Well sorry buddy you should have read there tos and eula before playing the freaking game in the first place and also we are in 2015 so everyone knows 99% of game makers have the same parts in there tos and eula when it comes to botting or hacking with some small difference but not far from each others. There is no excuse for the bots makers or users.
Also players that do use them still gets the ban hammer or suspension so they do get penalized so now it is time to go to the source of the issue and make sure they get the makers of those programs.
Another example.... Cheat Engine is software that allows you to hack games, so why are they still running? Why have they not been sued due to action of people using the software?
Dunno but shouldn't the people using the bots be held accountable for the monetary losses of blizzard since well they are the ones using the bots?
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Because with multiplayer online games, the issue isn't the hacking of a personal-use product. It is the adverse effect on a multi-user service. While on the surface they may seem the same, they are distinctly different scenarios.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Insidious and Perfidious. Hey, that would be a great title for a game!
For the record I am not saying it's okay to cheat in mmo...I personally stay away from lots of pvp mmos because cheating is rampant so don't get the wrong impression that I think it is morally okay to do this and ruin peoples fun. I am just curious how the legalities of it work.
I read this here https://torrentfreak.com/blizzard-sues-bot-maker-for-copyright-infringement-151111/
and see they are suing on copyright infringement grounds. I wonder how tough a sell that is since a bot isn't copying the game? Maybe it is using parts of the game code...dunno
The article had an update which has me a little confused as to who blizzard is actually suing?
Another article about it http://nosygamer.blogspot.ca/2015/05/blizzard-loses-in-court-botters-lose-in.html
If blizzard has to keep up with these kind of ban waves I wonder how much it will affect their player base seeing as these "mods" seem commonly used and rampant in WoW.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/unholy-rage/
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?