Atmosphere

Amathe

There was something about EQ that I have not seen repeated consistently in any of the other mmos I have played. It's not easy to put into words.

For me, the game had a persistent feeling of mystery, with underlying notes of curiosity mixed with dread. Wherever I was, it felt like something bad had happened there once, or soon would be happening. It felt like there was a secret to that place that I had not yet discovered. 

And almost always, I could see something else on the horizon that looked strange and mysterious. Something that made me want to go deeper into the woods, or across the plains, or over that hill to see what was there.

The music added a lot to that -  sweet, haunting and melancholy. The music seemed to be whispering that there was more to wherever you were than first appeared, or that things were not as they seemed - and to be watchful. 

Fear of death added to all of that, but it was just one of several factors. 

I have played games that have done well on capturing the feeling I am trying to describe for a particular zone. An example would be Duskwood/Darkshire in Wow, which was exceptionally well done both in setting and story. The Secret World has many compelling parts also. 

But EQ nailed it through and through. Better than any other game since, imo. 

For Pantheon to be the true successor to EQ (to me anyway), it can't be done with game mechanics alone. It has to feel like Everquest, or more accurately, it needs to make me feel like I felt when I played Everquest.  

Amsai

I know what you are talking about even if Im not familiar with EQ. I think most old MMOs had this. And to me the majority of the reason was due to how dangerous the world was and painful death penalties. But a well captured thematic look for the setting and music the fit the mood definitely helped as well. But I remeber these same things when I played XI and AC in particular.

Dullahan

Amsai said:

I know what you are talking about even if Im not familiar with EQ. I think most old MMOs had this. And to me the majority of the reason was due to how dangerous the world was and painful death penalties. But a well captured thematic look for the setting and music the fit the mood definitely helped as well. But I remeber these same things when I played XI and AC in particular.

Actually, this is one of the things that made EQ stand out from other oldschool MMOs. They call it environmental storytelling. Even though I enjoyed older mmos much more than new games in general, I did not feel like the worlds in those other games drew me in like EQ and Norrath. In fact, many of them felt just plain generic.

Then again, I also felt EQ's game world post-Velious began losing that element. The world just seemed more generic, like things were randomly generated or placed without purpose. Before that time it was really as if they had taken from lore and used a backstory to inspire the world they were creating.

There is a lot more to making an enticing virtual world than simply having loads of nice art assets. Its all in the detail and the way they're arranged.

Amsai

Well to each their own I suppose. But I felt XI absolutely did this. AC not as much but still it was there.But definatelt much more than games like DAoC or Lineage or Anarchy. And like 100s times more than modern MMOs.

Zarriya

Amathe said:

There was something about EQ that I have not seen repeated consistently in any of the other mmos I have played. It's not easy to put into words.

For me, the game had a persistent feeling of mystery, with underlying notes of curiosity mixed with dread. Wherever I was, it felt like something bad had happened there once, or soon would be happening. It felt like there was a secret to that place that I had not yet discovered. 

And almost always, I could see something else on the horizon that looked strange and mysterious. Something that made me want to go deeper into the woods, or across the plains, or over that hill to see what was there.

The music added a lot to that -  sweet, haunting and melancholy. The music seemed to be whispering that there was more to wherever you were than first appeared, or that things were not as they seemed - and to be watchful. 

Fear of death added to all of that, but it was just one of several factors. 

I have played games that have done well on capturing the feeling I am trying to describe for a particular zone. An example would be Duskwood/Darkshire in Wow, which was exceptionally well done both in setting and story. The Secret World has many compelling parts also. 

But EQ nailed it through and through. Better than any other game since, imo. 

For Pantheon to be the true successor to EQ (to me anyway), it can't be done with game mechanics alone. It has to feel like Everquest, or more accurately, it needs to make me feel like I felt when I played Everquest.  

I hear you Amathe. I too like being in a world.   I feel  a lot of MMOs rush you from  quest hub to quest hub by markers and do not let you absorb the beautiful world they created.   I loved the examples that you cited - you knew you were in Duskwood by the sights, sounds and mood.  But instead of Pantheon feeling like Everquest, would it not be even more awesome if it felt like Pantheon ?

Xarko

Ye atmosphere is very important to me aswell. Every mmo I tried had at leat some except for Wildstar. 

Raidan_EQ

@Amathe ;

Wolfshead Online had a good article summarizing your thoughts that was posted back in 2013 by Zanakus:

http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/guest-essay-why-was-everquest-so-immersive/

And, I'll post another from Wolfshead which captures other lesser recalled features that also added to the EQ experience.  Not 100% on topic with this thread, but it's a good read.

http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-everquest-paradox/

Dullahan

I think first person had more to do with EQ's immersiveness than anyone gives it credit for. Originally, that was how everyone played the game and there hasn't really been another since. Seeing the world through your character's eyes, having your camera move while attacking or being attacked, or your screen go black when blinded has a psychological impact. When you offer players a third person option (as all mmos since have), you lose that connection to your character.

This was actually mentioned in the guest essay from wolfshead linked above.

Rallyd

Well you credit XI with something that clearly came from EQ first, EQ pretty much made notorious the night cycle being nasty, and skeletons did spawn at night the same as you talk about in XI, basically the exact same thing.  So while you may credit XI for it, EQ did it first.

Also, I played XI on launch, I didn't get more than 1 month out of it before i quit due to being disgusted with the menu-system UI, however I did note that night cycles were much brighter than EQ was originally, in EQ you couldn't see 10 feet in front of you if you didn't have infravision in dark forests, XI was more of how it was later in EQ, it just got a bit darker and different NPC's spawned.

Pratt2112

Amsai said:

Well to each their own I suppose. But I felt XI absolutely did this. AC not as much but still it was there.But definatelt much more than games like DAoC or Lineage or Anarchy. And like 100s times more than modern MMOs.

Vana'diel in FFXI absolutely captured that same sense of atmosphere and history the OP is talking about. I knew exactly what they were talking about when they were describing how it was in EQ, because I'd always felt the same thing in XI.

The world told a story. Even if it was unclear exactly what had happened in a given spot, you could tell *something* happened.

The ruins scattered about Sauromugue Champaign. Garlaige Citadel itself was an entire story/set piece in the form of a dungeon. They were all relics/remains from the war that had waged 20 years prior to the start of the game's story. We'd eventually go on to see Sauromugue as it looked (along with many other zones) prior to being devasted during the war through the Wings of The Godess storyline.

King Ranperre's Tomb on Ronfaure has a clear history. Or, how about the cliffs in Batallia Downs, just outside Jeuno? The cliff is charred black, as are all the trees near the cliff, as well as being leaned away from the cliff, as though blasted that way by some massive explosion (which they had been). You didn't need a storyline, or some NPC regaling you with the history of the area to figure out what had gone on there, though the whys, hows, and whens may be unclear.

The giant spine dividing Meriphataud Mountains.... Remember wondering what that massive thing was for? What were these massive spines stretching across the map, seeming to connect to the massive Crags in certain areas (a mystery by themselves) and converge on Delkfutt's Tower in Qufim Island...

Two words: Gusgen Mines. Its coalmine tracks and passageways abandoned save for the walking remains of those who died in there, some in physical form (skeletons), others as ghosts that appear and disappear before your eyes, some walking upside down along the ceiling. I remember being seriously spooked the first time I went in there, because I wasn't even sure I'd seen what I thought I saw.

The towers in E and W Saruta, the Horutoto Ruins they connected to and, deeper within, the Toraimorai Canal and then Full Moon Fountain. It goes on and on.

Vana'diel is a world built on an amazingly deep, detailed, and torrid history. It absolutely oozes with atmosphere.

Seriously, I could go on and on. All of these places had a history and a story to tell. Many times those stories were illustrated by the types of enemies you'd encounter around/in them. 

Vana'diel was as much a character, and as much a part of the experience as any NPC in the storyline. Someone who would have played XI and could come away saying it had no history or atmosphere either didn't pay attention to such things, didn't play long enough to see much/any of it, or is just talking out their you-know-whats. 

More than almost any other aspect of FFXI, I miss its world.

Scumm

Dullahan said:

I think first person had more to do with EQ's immersiveness than anyone gives it credit for. Originally, that was how everyone played the game and there hasn't really been another since. Seeing the world through your character's eyes, having your camera move while attacking or being attacked, or your screen go black when blinded has a psychological impact. When you offer players a third person option (as all mmos since have), you lose that connection to your character.

This was actually mentioned in the guest essay from wolfshead linked above.

I was about to comment the same thing. I really agree that 1st person perspective makes you feel like you are IN the world, not just controlling a character who is in the world.  

The benefits go beyond just having the camera view through your character's eyes.  I've mentioned this before, but having a game designed to be played in 3rd person with the option to switch to 1st person results in a significantly different world design.  Environments are built to accommodate a floating camera.  Doorways become larger than they would be realistically.  Claustrophobic dungeon crawls are abandoned for luxurious tunnels.  Once you switch back to 1st person, things start to feel more cartoonish and unrealistic.  

The EQNext team talks about this specifically when coaching players on how to better create worlds in Landmark.  They specifically say "Don't forget to make this room big enough for the 3rd person camera".  

I worry that Pantheon is becoming a game that is designed to be played in 3rd person, with the option to shift to 1st person.  I understand the tactical advantages that 3rd person has, but the world should be designed to look and feel right from 1st person first.     

Wizardry

Well it is called creating LORE to your game,npc's with identity ,towns and areas of a game have a true identity.
Yes Pantheon needs to pull that off as well.You know what ruins that feeling and likely why the OP feels it has not been happening since??>>>>INSTANCING,,yeah thanks Blizzard.

Instancing ruins the entire feel and LORE of a game just for a chance at some dungeon loot.

FFXI was exactly like EQ,you were not forced to play in any linear fashion,geesh FFXI didn't even give xp for quests.I never once playing FFXI thought about what instance i wanted to do,the entire game and areas felt playable,no need to specifically play one particular zone.

That is another area Pantheon needs to work on to be a success and that is CHOICE.If everyone has to kill the same stuff in the same place,it gets real boring and over crowded,hence why Blizzard went with instancing because it messed up actual game design.Allow players choice in where they go to kill stuff and try not to make one area so much better than it again removes choice.

Now i doubt Pantheon will have  the depth of class that FFXI but another example of choice was having a Paladin or a Ninja tank,that changed your choice a lot and what type of group you would form.Example a straigth forward spank n Tank would prefer a Paladin tank,or say if fighting high damage minions but a Ninja tank would be better suited for the powerful one up attacks because it could avoid them.Also a Ninja could not handle FAST attack creatures because he would lose his shadows too quickly,point is a good design creates thought and  choice in a game.

Aberius

Pratt2112 said:

Amsai said:

Well to each their own I suppose. But I felt XI absolutely did this. AC not as much but still it was there.But definatelt much more than games like DAoC or Lineage or Anarchy. And like 100s times more than modern MMOs.

Vana'diel in FFXI absolutely captured that same sense of atmosphere and history the OP is talking about. I knew exactly what they were talking about when they were describing how it was in EQ, because I'd always felt the same thing in XI.
The world told a story. Even if it was unclear exactly what had happened in a given spot, you could tell *something* happened.
...
Vana'diel is a world built on an amazingly deep, detailed, and torrid history. It absolutely oozes with atmosphere.
...

Some modern MMOs still do this well.  As one example, ESO does a decent job of making places feel like real locations with a history.  Particularly though, FFXIV has actually been a worthy successor to XI in this regard.  A lot of the zones in FFXIV have areas that feel very intentionally designed, with stories hinted at in nooks and crannies and out of the way structures and ruins.  

Unfortunately, the modern questing system (talk to exclamation point, go to map marker, kill X of Y, repeat) causes many players to completely miss out on the design effort that has gone into the world.  This weekend I was doing a quest that actually gave vague text clues and no map help (felt like WoW 1.0 again, it was great), and as a result I was actually paying attention to my environment and actively exploring instead of just following map waypoints.  I found some neat things and really experienced that sense of place and history that is all too often missing from modern games.  I guess my point is, how much of that missing sense of realism and immersion is due to the modern quest system driving the way people interact with the world, rather than the world's layout per se.

Amathe

Raidan_EQ said:

@Amathe ;

Wolfshead Online had a good article summarizing your thoughts that was posted back in 2013 by Zanakus:

http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/guest-essay-why-was-everquest-so-immersive/

And, I'll post another from Wolfshead which captures other lesser recalled features that also added to the EQ experience.  Not 100% on topic with this thread, but it's a good read.

http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-everquest-paradox/

Good read.  Thanks for sharing it. 

tarodin

I'm sure my comment wont be at the level of the above but for me non-guided level advancement, death penalty, good music and difficulty forcing to LFG was enough to feel that I was living in norrath... in other hand, vanguard was easy but music and ambientation make the same effect on me...

i'm enjoying this game developement

Rallyd

Scumm said:

Dullahan said:

I think first person had more to do with EQ's immersiveness than anyone gives it credit for. Originally, that was how everyone played the game and there hasn't really been another since. Seeing the world through your character's eyes, having your camera move while attacking or being attacked, or your screen go black when blinded has a psychological impact. When you offer players a third person option (as all mmos since have), you lose that connection to your character.

This was actually mentioned in the guest essay from wolfshead linked above.

I was about to comment the same thing. I really agree that 1st person perspective makes you feel like you are IN the world, not just controlling a character who is in the world.  

The benefits go beyond just having the camera view through your character's eyes.  I've mentioned this before, but having a game designed to be played in 3rd person with the option to switch to 1st person results in a significantly different world design.  Environments are built to accommodate a floating camera.  Doorways become larger than they would be realistically.  Claustrophobic dungeon crawls are abandoned for luxurious tunnels.  Once you switch back to 1st person, things start to feel more cartoonish and unrealistic.  

The EQNext team talks about this specifically when coaching players on how to better create worlds in Landmark.  They specifically say "Don't forget to make this room big enough for the 3rd person camera".  

I worry that Pantheon is becoming a game that is designed to be played in 3rd person, with the option to shift to 1st person.  I understand the tactical advantages that 3rd person has, but the world should be designed to look and feel right from 1st person first.     

I think this really needs to be restated, because they were 2 magnificent posts.  This could be one of the things that gave EQ its magic.  I remember having gone back to P99 and played and thinking... man using 3rd person sucks around here i can't ever get far enough away to see the action... but that is actually part of what made EQ great, it was a very claustrophobic design  pre-velious, when velious came around more and more people were using 3rd person and they made the dungeons much larger to compensate.

Question is, did I become less immersed from using 3rd person, the answer is yes, but I was still more immersed than any other game since.

I think you could maybe combine the 2 aspects, have areas where you could use 3rd person effectively, and also have areas where you just can't, or shouldn't.  See how it plays out.

Adamantine

Well I'm not much of a roleplayer, so forgive me if I have no clue if Vanguard offered something compareable. Then again probably not because the huge game world had quite big gaps of nothing in between, yet to be filled spots that in some cases never turned into anything (and in other cases turned into housing areas).

What I definitely loved about Vanguard was the realistic viewing distances, though.