At the high end everyone had the same stuff. Why wouldn't we though, it's not like raid drops were a rarity.
Every raid warrior has a Darkblade in PoP, Brutish blade of Balance in GoD, Epic 2.0 in OOW, no upgrade in DoN, Swiftcleave in DoD, etc
That's how my raiding guild in EQ1 was exactly - once you've seen one warrior you've seen the gear for the other 6 warriors - it was identical. Same was true for all classes.
What you're saying is true if you're doing the easy raids. Not everyone had PoT B gear...not everyone had Qvic gear, not everyone had Citadel of Anguish gear. Its not like any old guild with random casuals could just go out and raid this stuff...then get the ultra rare drops without having the raid on farm.
If you're talking about all the magicians in your guild, which I'll assume was an uber raiding guild which had the top tier raids on farm status, then sure you repeated the raids enough time that everyone got the gear they wanted.....the handful of magis in your guild anyway...what about the other 1,000 magis on your server that never had any hope whatsoever of getting that gear?
You have to see reality here. EQ wasn't a pinata that rained down epic weapons on anyone who wanted them. They took serious work, coordination, and time investment to get and not everyone on the server could do it.
The more items, and the more difference between players, the harder it is for developers to tune content.
I'm not sure how many do betas in EQ, but there's this command /betabuff, it's been used for years. What it does it give every person on the beta server the same gear.
Making ultra rare items, making tons of different items, might be a cool idea, this is not something that developers like. Developers like the majority of players to be divided into tiers, so they can tune content to specific tiers.
This is one of the reasons we had currencies in EQ's later expansions. To get everyone more on a level playing field, so developers didn't need to tune content with thousands of different gear levels.
This is why it's a bit annoying having people who only played EQ for the first couple of years, look through rose tinted glasses and say with authority "EQ needs to be like in 1999", while being blissfully unaware of all the problems that were later caused by mistakes made early on in EQ.
There is a reason we got currencies, there is a reason drop rates were changed, there is a reason EQ got instances, there is a reason augments were put on a common loot table, there is a reason why they almost never use all/all items anymore, all of them have to do with mistakes made early on that needed to be rectified later on to keep the game playable.
EQ was a good game early on, but it was far far from perfect, and lots of mistakes made early on, caused massive problems later in the game.
My best moment in WoW was finding a really cool gun as a hunter (purple) on a random MOB in the open world. It was completely random and not a silver MOB etc. It was the best thing ever. . I almost lost my mind.
At the high end everyone had the same stuff. Why wouldn't we though, it's not like raid drops were a rarity.
Every raid warrior has a Darkblade in PoP, Brutish blade of Balance in GoD, Epic 2.0 in OOW, no upgrade in DoN, Swiftcleave in DoD, etc
That's how my raiding guild in EQ1 was exactly - once you've seen one warrior you've seen the gear for the other 6 warriors - it was identical. Same was true for all classes.
What you're saying is true if you're doing the easy raids. Not everyone had PoT B gear...not everyone had Qvic gear, not everyone had Citadel of Anguish gear. Its not like any old guild with random casuals could just go out and raid this stuff...then get the ultra rare drops without having the raid on farm.
If you're talking about all the magicians in your guild, which I'll assume was an uber raiding guild which had the top tier raids on farm status, then sure you repeated the raids enough time that everyone got the gear they wanted.....the handful of magis in your guild anyway...what about the other 1,000 magis on your server that never had any hope whatsoever of getting that gear?
You have to see reality here. EQ wasn't a pinata that rained down epic weapons on anyone who wanted them. They took serious work, coordination, and time investment to get and not everyone on the server could do it.
Now days raiding guilds are likely to take players who are willing to pay to participate in the raid and a chance at getting those rare drops.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think that one in a million drop rate for really rare stuff is the way to go.
This will show everyone how much of a TRUE player you really are.
Yes, because having loot rained on you because you are merely present in the game is a so very appealing part of playing games these days.
I know you were being sarcastic, but keep in mind that the concept of rarity is to give meaning to obtaining a given item and an integral part of the risk (and effort)/reward formula. It has nothing to do with skill, but consistent dedication to a goal. In such games, having an item of such rarity either meant you were extremely lucky, or extremely dedicated. This is why not everyone had every item in the game as opposed to games these days where everyone looks like a clone of each other.
Everyone end game Vanilla Eq1 looked like clones of each other before Kunark came out.
In my guild my Magician had identical gear with the other 4 raiding magis.
Same happened at the end of Kunark... and Velious.
Sure there was an accessory here and there that was different but visible armor wad all the same within each class.
Rare drops didn't make any difference for any hardcore player.
"Rare drops don't make any difference for any hardcore player"
Thank you for summarizing my thoughts, that is exactly my point. As another poster stated, only the truly dedicated or the truly lucky shall prosper.
The more items, and the more difference between players, the harder it is for developers to tune content.
I'm not sure how many do betas in EQ, but there's this command /betabuff, it's been used for years. What it does it give every person on the beta server the same gear.
Making ultra rare items, making tons of different items, might be a cool idea, this is not something that developers like. Developers like the majority of players to be divided into tiers, so they can tune content to specific tiers.
This is one of the reasons we had currencies in EQ's later expansions. To get everyone more on a level playing field, so developers didn't need to tune content with thousands of different gear levels.
This is why it's a bit annoying having people who only played EQ for the first couple of years, look through rose tinted glasses and say with authority "EQ needs to be like in 1999", while being blissfully unaware of all the problems that were later caused by mistakes made early on in EQ.
/facepalm
The way you spin it, you seem to tell a story of how SoE made EQ better rather than slowly killing it with mainstream feature after feature.
You hear that Brad? Apparently, Verant was the problem and it was after you left that EQ started getting better! Maybe you should call up Smed, hire him so Pantheon can be improved to be like EQ is today! /boggle
SoE changed some things in the game, for the better, the game wouldn't have lasted 15 years and counting if they left it like it was.
If "SoE killed EQ", they sure are taking their time to do it, don't know many MMO that are still around after 15 years.
EQ had issues early on, it wasn't perfect. If developers don't know what gear the average player has, they can't tune content properly. A good example is Gates, tuned for lvl 70 players, dropped to lvl 65, they had no idea how strong the average player was..and it almost killed EQ, the only reason EQ survived was that the next expansion, OOW, was one of the best expansions EQ ever had, with properly tuned content and proper loot tables for groupers and a proper and accessible armor upgrade system.
Instancing is the same story, it was implemented to stop the drama over contested content, which was causing players to leave the game.
Verant got many things right, but also many things wrong, things that needed to be fixed.
SoE changed some things in the game, for the better, the game wouldn't have lasted 15 years and counting if they left it like it was.
If "SoE killed EQ", they sure are taking their time to do it, don't know many MMO that are still around after 15 years.
EQ had issues early on, it wasn't perfect. If developers don't know what gear the average player has, they can't tune content properly. A good example is Gates, tuned for lvl 70 players, dropped to lvl 65, they had no idea how strong the average player was..and it almost killed EQ, the only reason EQ survived was that the next expansion, OOW, was one of the best expansions EQ ever had, with properly tuned content and proper loot tables for groupers and a proper and accessible armor upgrade system.
Instancing is the same story, it was implemented to stop the drama over contested content, which was causing players to leave the game.
Verant got many things right, but also many things wrong, things that needed to be fixed.
Yeah, that is why EQ lost most of its subscription base within a year or so of PoPs release and steadily lost subs. I never said EQ was perfect, but I do know from experience that token based gear acquisition is one of the most horrible implementations of mainstream games. It is lazy, and hand out based gear acquisition and fit right into the stream line model of turning dungeon runs into a speed run event to farm widgets.
SoE was incompetent with later EQ. For the love of sanity, they were fumbling around like idiots after Verant left and they even admitted it in posts from the devs about how they couldn't implement some bard changes because they had no clue how the Bard code worked.
You should have seen the morons argue with the monk community over the mitigation changes. We had thousands upon thousands of parses of multiple classes in very controlled environments and according to very strict measures, showing them the facts and they blatantly thumbed their noses claiming we were lying.
If SoE couldn't balance gear, it is because they didn't know their head from their arse when it came to the game. They were clueless and arrogant at the same time which is why a lot of people got pissed at them and left. So excuse me if I don't accept that the reason that SoE moved to a dumbed down streamlined system was because it was "too hard", it was "too hard" for them, not any competent designer.
Look at the numbers, the dates. There are a lot of reasons why people began to leave EQ, but it wasn't because Verant was flawed, it is the opposite. People left because of SoE, not Verant. You can scoff at the source, claim it isn't entirely accurate, but the fact is the first three expansions are what are known as the golden age of EQ, not the obvious mainstreaming of EQ that SoE did to it.
SoE changed some things in the game, for the better, the game wouldn't have lasted 15 years and counting if they left it like it was.
If "SoE killed EQ", they sure are taking their time to do it, don't know many MMO that are still around after 15 years.
EQ had issues early on, it wasn't perfect. If developers don't know what gear the average player has, they can't tune content properly. A good example is Gates, tuned for lvl 70 players, dropped to lvl 65, they had no idea how strong the average player was..and it almost killed EQ, the only reason EQ survived was that the next expansion, OOW, was one of the best expansions EQ ever had, with properly tuned content and proper loot tables for groupers and a proper and accessible armor upgrade system.
Instancing is the same story, it was implemented to stop the drama over contested content, which was causing players to leave the game.
Verant got many things right, but also many things wrong, things that needed to be fixed.
Yeah, that is why EQ lost most of its subscription base within a year or so of PoPs release and steadily lost subs. I never said EQ was perfect, but I do know from experience that token based gear acquisition is one of the most horrible implementations of mainstream games. It is lazy, and hand out based gear acquisition and fit right into the stream line model of turning dungeon runs into a speed run event to farm widgets.
SoE was incompetent with later EQ. For the love of sanity, they were fumbling around like idiots after Verant left and they even admitted it in posts from the devs about how they couldn't implement some bard changes because they had no clue how the Bard code worked.
You should have seen the morons argue with the monk community over the mitigation changes. We had thousands upon thousands of parses of multiple classes in very controlled environments and according to very strict measures, showing them the facts and they blatantly thumbed their noses claiming we were lying.
If SoE couldn't balance gear, it is because they didn't know their head from their arse when it came to the game. They were clueless and arrogant at the same time which is why a lot of people got pissed at them and left. So excuse me if I don't accept that the reason that SoE moved to a dumbed down streamlined system was because it was "too hard", it was "too hard" for them, not any competent designer.
Look at the numbers, the dates. There are a lot of reasons why people began to leave EQ, but it wasn't because Verant was flawed, it is the opposite. People left because of SoE, not Verant. You can scoff at the source, claim it isn't entirely accurate, but the fact is the first three expansions are what are known as the golden age of EQ, not the obvious mainstreaming of EQ that SoE did to it.
The massive drop on the graph was caused by Gates in 2004, in the post you quoted I explain why.
I don't know why you keep saying "dumbed down", if anything SoE made EQ far more challenging, up till Gates, raids were sandbags. It wasn't until we got to Inktu'ta where there were finally mobs that were properly scripted.
The early raids in EQ weren't challenging, they were open world sandbags, it wasn't until SoE had their new PoP editor they could finally make challenging instance scripts that raiding became fun instead of tank 'n spank sandbag mobs.
If you want an example of how terrible some of the early EQ content was, go look on classic EQ servers, where people are taking out the early raids with boxed mage teams. You can blame some of it on the increase in pet power, but a lot has to do with how terribly easy early raids were. It was SoE who made challenging raids, not Verant.
EQ's early raids were static mobs in the open world that required keeping a tank alive and zerging the mobs down.
It was later on, in Uqua, in Inktu'ta, in Ikkinz, in Txevu, Tacvi, in Demiplane, in Dreadspire, in The Hive, that you got the challenging scripted instanced raids.
There is only so much you can do in an open world, if you want challenging raids and you want to run zone-wide scripts, you are forced to use instances.
The massive drop on the graph was caused by Gates in 2004, in the post you quoted I explain why.
I don't know why you keep saying "dumbed down", if anything SoE made EQ far more challenging, up till Gates, raids were sandbags. It wasn't until we got to Inktu'ta where there were finally mobs that were properly scripted.
The early raids in EQ weren't challenging, they were open world sandbags, it wasn't until SoE had their new PoP editor they could finally make challenging instance scripts that raiding became fun instead of tank 'n spank sandbag mobs.
I am not talking about raids, I am talking about loot systems, grouping, travel, death penalty, instancing, etc...
I know the raids got more complicated, they had to in order to compete with WoWs raiding being more flamboyant and interactive.
Early EQ raids were very challenging, they were not sand bags at all. I hear this all the time, but I was there, led the raids and while I agree that later EQ became more scripted, the idea that early EQ was a face roll is BS. I led many raids all through up into PoP.
If you want an example of how terrible some of
the early EQ content was, go look on classic EQ servers, where people
are taking out the early raids without boxed mage teams. You can blame
some of it on the increase in pet power, but a lot has to do with how
terribly easy early raids were. It was SoE who made challenging raids,
not Verant.
EQ's early raids were static mobs in the open world that required keeping a tank alive and zerging the mobs down.
It
was later on, in uqua, in Inktu'ta, ihn Ikkinz, in Txevu, Tacvi, in
Demiplane, in Dreadspire, in The Hive, that you got the challenging
scripted instanced raids.
EQ today is not EQ back then. They have changed so much in the systems from early EQ that it is night and day. They don't even have the early EQ code anymore which is why the progression servers are really just current EQ with the expansions cut off so using any of the raids from now EQ as an example doesn't help you at all. Those raids are not old EQ, not even close.
If you were not raiding in early EQ, did not lead them or have experience with the chains and tank rotations, the gear levels, the limitations on mechanics, etc... then you have no clue. EQ today is in no way shape or form like EQ back then. /shrug
I liked the uncertainty in EQ on whether a mob would drop an item or not. I also liked there being rare mobs, or "race mobs" (where people were coming from all over trying to get to a rare spawn first). It added suspense and excitement.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I liked the uncertainty in EQ on whether a mob would drop an item or not. I also liked there being rare mobs, or "race mobs" (where people were coming from all over trying to get to a rare spawn first). It added suspense and excitement.
Excellent point Amathe, and that is what token systems tend to lack.
You know, I used to think the opposite about the random system and rare loot when I was playing EQ. I had such terrible luck, I mean... at times it felt like the devs purposefully were tailoring the code to check if I was present and then deny me loot. It happened so often that people used to joke about it in my guild.
So naturally, I grew to dislike such systems and when token systems were introduced in games, I was all for them. I mean, it made sense, it was practical in that the player could then spend the tokens for the gear they chose, and it would solve all the guild/group loot war issues. Everyone got a token, everyone got to spend them how they wanted.
Boy was I wrong. You see, like other aspects of play where I sought convenience as the best solution, I started to notice a lack of interest in the game. It was one little chip after another, one mechanic or feature that when removed, also took away that drive, that satisfaction. Like you mention, I remember salivating over each kill, thinking this time... maybe this time that item I want would drop or thinking, what else will drop this time? I wonder what it will be! In fact, it was enjoyable to see others get neat items, even if I couldn't use them and that suspense and over joy when an item did drop that someone in the group was pining after.
The token system completely removed that element of play. Each kill became nothing more than a grind to get something you knew you would get and had to continue grinding until you had enough to buy the item you wanted. No suspense, no excitement, no hope for something, just mundane grinding for the same stupid widget you got the last kill.
So all I can say to token systems is no, not just no... but HELL NO! Not going to do it, not going to have it. I will take my bad luck of early EQ a 1000 times over the mundane store based token grinding of games today.
So all I can say to token systems is no, not just no... but HELL NO! Not going to do it, not going to have it. I will take my bad luck of early EQ a 1000 times over the mundane store based token grinding of games today.
Agree, the Token BS really takes away the excitement of killing a Boss. "Ok.......I've killed him 5 times, I need to kill him another 95 times to get my awesome breastplate of the Gods"............no thanks, it is not for me anymore. That's actually very stressing if you think about.
EQ rarely used currencies for raids, out of all expansions, I can only remember one, The Serpent's Spine, phosphites.
But it was sometimes used for groupers, to make sure they didn't fall hopelessly behind.
EQ has a currency system for some expansions, LDON "points", DoN "crystals", "Brell's notes" etc. It was purely for groupers, to rebalance the game, which was often very needed.
It also gave some classes the augments they desperately needed, it allowed group warriors to gain access to hate augments for example, they were desperately falling behind on aggro generation.
Many times an MMO needs to bring left-behind-players up to par with the lowest tier, so they don't quit the game because they can't handle the content, they can either trivialize old content, increase droprates, or lower the RNG dependency by using expansions that support currencies.
Either way, bringing left-behind-players up to a reasonable level for upcoming expansions, is something that always needs to happen, especially in a game that relies heavily on RNG.
Like I mentioned before, what people want and what's good for a game, are often not the same thing. Most people are against easing of older content, removing keying, adding easier access to items, increasing droprates of older items, but it often has to happen. Not everyone has the same playtime, you always need to make sure left-behind-players with lower playtime are able to catch up easily through shortcuts, otherwise those people leave the game when they can no longer do the content.
@Sinist, There's no reason to be offended or upset when someone disagrees with you.
Yes, some of @CalmOceans ideas are not compatible with Pantheon, but relax, Visionary Realms knows this.
As to the specific suggestions, providing players with a way to "catch up" as has been done by modern MMOs, is innately bad for a game like Pantheon. It devalues old content, and leaves players with less to do in the long run. It also puts much greater stress on developers to create new content. Its actually the reason why modern MMOs made in the spirit of WoW cannot compete with WoW; You simply can't hope to beat a company with their own design (the content race) when they have more money than you.
In EQ (as you probably know), dungeons were viable for both experience and items for many years. Even 3 or 4 expansions later, people were still doing classic dungeons. They still offered a viable path of progression into newer, higher level zones.
What we saw with games like WoW in the Burning Crusade, was everything players accomplished in vanilla become almost instantly worthless. We literally replaced our rare dungeon and raid drops with the first quest rewards in Hellfire peninsula. They leveled the playing field by stepping on their loyal players to entice new players to start playing or come back. It was a disgusting practice.
Proper progression, time investment and integrity of design are some of the key differences between a virtual world and modern MMOs. It is crucial that you don't devalue either the player's or the developer's time devotion to the world and its content by allowing new players to circumvent it.
Perhaps way down the line, this sort of thing will need to be addressed. It will depend on the population and Visionary Realms approach to revamping old content. Its honestly not even relevant to this thread, though admittedly, the design philosophy is contrary to what we hope to see applied in the creation of Pantheon.
@Sinist, There's no reason to be offended or upset when someone disagrees with you.
I am not offended by disagreement. Read closely his responses, he mocks, is dismissive, and arrogant about our positions. You can easily see such in our discussion. When I have talked about those in the past who are dangerous, who are disruptive, dismissive and devious to game like this, it is those positions, those arguments, those of such demeanor.
Look at the progression of our discussion. In each stage of progression, CalmOceans as made it known that tenant after tenant of this game is invalid, a failure, etc... and the reason is because people like you and I are blinded by nostalgia and too stupid to understand the problems and wonderful solutions that mainstream provided.
Sorry Dullahan, if you think I am being too harsh, if Brad does, that I understand because you want to be neutral, open and receptive to encourage this games success, but I have been there, watched it over and over again with game after game over the decades. Nothing is to be gained by placating these types. I am not saying VR should be aggressive, they should remain neutral, being polite and receptive, but this isn't my first rodeo and I refuse to play nice with people I KNOW don't give a shit about this game and want it to be the next retarded mainstream gimmick because they are bored from their last retarded mainstream gimmick. Sorry, no disrespect, but I am not going to do it.
You have seen my discussion here. I am fair and honest, and polite to those who are willing to discuss logically, but I will not accept fallacy after fallacy and arguments made from 3rd positions to claim understanding (ie I played EQs progression servers, they are easy mode!), I dealt with enough of such ignorance during the monk nerfs.
Like I mentioned before, what people want and what's good for a game, are often not the same thing. Most people are against easing of older content, removing keying, adding easier access to items, increasing droprates of older items, but it often has to happen. Not everyone has the same playtime, you always need to make sure left-behind-players with lower playtime are able to catch up easily through shortcuts, otherwise those people leave the game when they can no longer do the content.
It is like you are trying to sell a failed product that everyone knows to an alien like a used car salesmen. We have had your games. Everything you claim that was a "savior" to the games is what we are all saying SUCKS about games. Everythign you say is the solution we HATE. We don't want YOUR games, we don't want YOUR solutions. We have hundreds of your games all around us, with all these award winning solutions you keep going off about and how this is what people "need" while each of these games are dying and considered a waste of time by anyone who can rub two brain cells together.
No, what you want is not what we want. No, we don't want games "designed by Smedley", no.. we don't want mainstream garbage.
So thanks for stopping by, enjoy your mainstream game that is a hit success, because we don't want your mainstream garbage. Buh bye!!!
Sorry Brad, but this is the type that needs to beat feet. Everything they say is exactly opposite of your tenants, opposite of your goals, and they don't give a shit about what you are trying to achive, and if you look at the little twits arguments, they think you don't know your head from your ass. Best course is to tell them to piss off.
Sorry, I refuse to be nice to these ass hats.
Or you could just ignore them, instead of going the faux anger routine in every reply.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Token is just a term which refers to in-game special currency used to buy gear. It is usually a rewards for the so called "Dailes" quests in some games are dropped by killing Bosses. WoW introduced them first and as always everyone else copied that, often abusing it.
Or you could just ignore them, instead of going the faux anger routine in every reply.
True, but aren't we supposed to be discussing and explaining to these people? If you note, that was what I was doing. It wasn't until they started insulting that I responded in such, and honestly, do you think these forums are best served by ignoring the drones who come in and proclaim the game garbage as they do?
I mean, it is a touchy issue as Brad pointed out, on one side, you don't want to run off people who are genuinely interested, but at the same time, you don't want to let the forums go uncontested to the trash talkers.
It isn't like I am being unreasonable in my contest. I met their points and called them on it. If it runs them off, do we really care that someone who was trash talking the game stopped posting? Notice how you and Dullahan are admonishing me and yet do you see me going off on you guys? Nope... It is a equal and opposite force type of thing. People who are civil and attempt to be reasonable have no fear of me, regardless if I agree with them or not.
By the way, this isn't discussing, this is shit talking:
CalmOceans said: This is why it's a bit annoying having people who only played EQ for the
first couple of years, look through rose tinted glasses and say with
authority "EQ needs to be like in 1999", while being blissfully unaware
of all the problems that were later caused by mistakes made early on in
EQ.
Sorry Brad, but this is the type that needs to beat feet.
Sorry, I refuse to be nice to these ass hats.
You do realize that Brad was working for Smedley and SoE up until recently right?
You realize he was appointed senior designer of Everquest in 2013, working for Smedley and SoE, right?
You seem pretty clueless about some things in some of your rants, no offense.
You have read Smedleys blog on game design direction and Brad's response have you not? You do realize that just because you work for someone, it doesn't mean that your work reflects your ideals right? You have read many of the developers comments on various games in the industry and how they commented on what they were told to develop and what they wanted to right?
You seem pretty clueless of these issues do you not?
Maybe I am out of place though right? Maybe Brad is making EQ Next (aka WoW next?) and I am just out of place. Maybe you can direct me to the spot where I should be?
Sorry Brad, but this is the type that needs to beat feet.
Sorry, I refuse to be nice to these ass hats.
You do realize that Brad was working for Smedley and SoE up until recently right?
You realize he was appointed senior designer of Everquest in 2013, working for Smedley and SoE, right?
You seem pretty clueless about some things in some of your rants, no offense.
You have read Smedleys blog on game design direction and Brad's response have you not? You do realize that just because you work for someone, it doesn't mean that your work reflects your ideals right? You have read many of the developers comments on various games in the industry and how they commented on what they were told to develop and what they wanted to right?
You seem pretty clueless of these issues do you not?
Yeah, you clearly didn't know Brad was working for SoE. Go take a cold shower instead of non-stop ranting. If anyone is going to put people off from playing a game, it will be people like you.
Comments
If you're talking about all the magicians in your guild, which I'll assume was an uber raiding guild which had the top tier raids on farm status, then sure you repeated the raids enough time that everyone got the gear they wanted.....the handful of magis in your guild anyway...what about the other 1,000 magis on your server that never had any hope whatsoever of getting that gear?
You have to see reality here. EQ wasn't a pinata that rained down epic weapons on anyone who wanted them. They took serious work, coordination, and time investment to get and not everyone on the server could do it.
I'm not sure how many do betas in EQ, but there's this command /betabuff, it's been used for years. What it does it give every person on the beta server the same gear.
Making ultra rare items, making tons of different items, might be a cool idea, this is not something that developers like. Developers like the majority of players to be divided into tiers, so they can tune content to specific tiers.
This is one of the reasons we had currencies in EQ's later expansions. To get everyone more on a level playing field, so developers didn't need to tune content with thousands of different gear levels.
This is why it's a bit annoying having people who only played EQ for the first couple of years, look through rose tinted glasses and say with authority "EQ needs to be like in 1999", while being blissfully unaware of all the problems that were later caused by mistakes made early on in EQ.
There is a reason we got currencies, there is a reason drop rates were changed, there is a reason EQ got instances, there is a reason augments were put on a common loot table, there is a reason why they almost never use all/all items anymore, all of them have to do with mistakes made early on that needed to be rectified later on to keep the game playable.
EQ was a good game early on, but it was far far from perfect, and lots of mistakes made early on, caused massive problems later in the game.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"Rare drops don't make any difference for any hardcore player"
Thank you for summarizing my thoughts, that is exactly my point. As another poster stated, only the truly dedicated or the truly lucky shall prosper.
But not everyone will prosper....
The way you spin it, you seem to tell a story of how SoE made EQ better rather than slowly killing it with mainstream feature after feature.
You hear that Brad? Apparently, Verant was the problem and it was after you left that EQ started getting better! Maybe you should call up Smed, hire him so Pantheon can be improved to be like EQ is today! /boggle
LOL
If "SoE killed EQ", they sure are taking their time to do it, don't know many MMO that are still around after 15 years.
EQ had issues early on, it wasn't perfect. If developers don't know what gear the average player has, they can't tune content properly. A good example is Gates, tuned for lvl 70 players, dropped to lvl 65, they had no idea how strong the average player was..and it almost killed EQ, the only reason EQ survived was that the next expansion, OOW, was one of the best expansions EQ ever had, with properly tuned content and proper loot tables for groupers and a proper and accessible armor upgrade system.
Instancing is the same story, it was implemented to stop the drama over contested content, which was causing players to leave the game.
Verant got many things right, but also many things wrong, things that needed to be fixed.
"What players want and what works aren't always the same thing"
Just because you want something in an MMO, doesn't mean it actually works, especially not if you need your game to last and not drain players.
Yeah, that is why EQ lost most of its subscription base within a year or so of PoPs release and steadily lost subs. I never said EQ was perfect, but I do know from experience that token based gear acquisition is one of the most horrible implementations of mainstream games. It is lazy, and hand out based gear acquisition and fit right into the stream line model of turning dungeon runs into a speed run event to farm widgets.
SoE was incompetent with later EQ. For the love of sanity, they were fumbling around like idiots after Verant left and they even admitted it in posts from the devs about how they couldn't implement some bard changes because they had no clue how the Bard code worked.
You should have seen the morons argue with the monk community over the mitigation changes. We had thousands upon thousands of parses of multiple classes in very controlled environments and according to very strict measures, showing them the facts and they blatantly thumbed their noses claiming we were lying.
If SoE couldn't balance gear, it is because they didn't know their head from their arse when it came to the game. They were clueless and arrogant at the same time which is why a lot of people got pissed at them and left. So excuse me if I don't accept that the reason that SoE moved to a dumbed down streamlined system was because it was "too hard", it was "too hard" for them, not any competent designer.
Look at the numbers, the dates. There are a lot of reasons why people began to leave EQ, but it wasn't because Verant was flawed, it is the opposite. People left because of SoE, not Verant. You can scoff at the source, claim it isn't entirely accurate, but the fact is the first three expansions are what are known as the golden age of EQ, not the obvious mainstreaming of EQ that SoE did to it.
I don't know why you keep saying "dumbed down", if anything SoE made EQ far more challenging, up till Gates, raids were sandbags. It wasn't until we got to Inktu'ta where there were finally mobs that were properly scripted.
The early raids in EQ weren't challenging, they were open world sandbags, it wasn't until SoE had their new PoP editor they could finally make challenging instance scripts that raiding became fun instead of tank 'n spank sandbag mobs.
EQ's early raids were static mobs in the open world that required keeping a tank alive and zerging the mobs down.
It was later on, in Uqua, in Inktu'ta, in Ikkinz, in Txevu, Tacvi, in Demiplane, in Dreadspire, in The Hive, that you got the challenging scripted instanced raids.
There is only so much you can do in an open world, if you want challenging raids and you want to run zone-wide scripts, you are forced to use instances.
I know the raids got more complicated, they had to in order to compete with WoWs raiding being more flamboyant and interactive.
Early EQ raids were very challenging, they were not sand bags at all. I hear this all the time, but I was there, led the raids and while I agree that later EQ became more scripted, the idea that early EQ was a face roll is BS. I led many raids all through up into PoP.
EQ today is not EQ back then. They have changed so much in the systems from early EQ that it is night and day. They don't even have the early EQ code anymore which is why the progression servers are really just current EQ with the expansions cut off so using any of the raids from now EQ as an example doesn't help you at all. Those raids are not old EQ, not even close.
If you were not raiding in early EQ, did not lead them or have experience with the chains and tank rotations, the gear levels, the limitations on mechanics, etc... then you have no clue. EQ today is in no way shape or form like EQ back then. /shrug
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You know, I used to think the opposite about the random system and rare loot when I was playing EQ. I had such terrible luck, I mean... at times it felt like the devs purposefully were tailoring the code to check if I was present and then deny me loot. It happened so often that people used to joke about it in my guild.
So naturally, I grew to dislike such systems and when token systems were introduced in games, I was all for them. I mean, it made sense, it was practical in that the player could then spend the tokens for the gear they chose, and it would solve all the guild/group loot war issues. Everyone got a token, everyone got to spend them how they wanted.
Boy was I wrong. You see, like other aspects of play where I sought convenience as the best solution, I started to notice a lack of interest in the game. It was one little chip after another, one mechanic or feature that when removed, also took away that drive, that satisfaction. Like you mention, I remember salivating over each kill, thinking this time... maybe this time that item I want would drop or thinking, what else will drop this time? I wonder what it will be! In fact, it was enjoyable to see others get neat items, even if I couldn't use them and that suspense and over joy when an item did drop that someone in the group was pining after.
The token system completely removed that element of play. Each kill became nothing more than a grind to get something you knew you would get and had to continue grinding until you had enough to buy the item you wanted. No suspense, no excitement, no hope for something, just mundane grinding for the same stupid widget you got the last kill.
So all I can say to token systems is no, not just no... but HELL NO! Not going to do it, not going to have it. I will take my bad luck of early EQ a 1000 times over the mundane store based token grinding of games today.
"Ok.......I've killed him 5 times, I need to kill him another 95 times to get my awesome breastplate of the Gods"............no thanks, it is not for me anymore.
That's actually very stressing if you think about.
EQ rarely used currencies for raids, out of all expansions, I can only remember one, The Serpent's Spine, phosphites.
But it was sometimes used for groupers, to make sure they didn't fall hopelessly behind.
EQ has a currency system for some expansions, LDON "points", DoN "crystals", "Brell's notes" etc. It was purely for groupers, to rebalance the game, which was often very needed.
It also gave some classes the augments they desperately needed, it allowed group warriors to gain access to hate augments for example, they were desperately falling behind on aggro generation.
Many times an MMO needs to bring left-behind-players up to par with the lowest tier, so they don't quit the game because they can't handle the content, they can either trivialize old content, increase droprates, or lower the RNG dependency by using expansions that support currencies.
Either way, bringing left-behind-players up to a reasonable level for upcoming expansions, is something that always needs to happen, especially in a game that relies heavily on RNG.
Like I mentioned before, what people want and what's good for a game, are often not the same thing. Most people are against easing of older content, removing keying, adding easier access to items, increasing droprates of older items, but it often has to happen. Not everyone has the same playtime, you always need to make sure left-behind-players with lower playtime are able to catch up easily through shortcuts, otherwise those people leave the game when they can no longer do the content.
Yes, some of @CalmOceans ideas are not compatible with Pantheon, but relax, Visionary Realms knows this.
As to the specific suggestions, providing players with a way to "catch up" as has been done by modern MMOs, is innately bad for a game like Pantheon. It devalues old content, and leaves players with less to do in the long run. It also puts much greater stress on developers to create new content. Its actually the reason why modern MMOs made in the spirit of WoW cannot compete with WoW; You simply can't hope to beat a company with their own design (the content race) when they have more money than you.
In EQ (as you probably know), dungeons were viable for both experience and items for many years. Even 3 or 4 expansions later, people were still doing classic dungeons. They still offered a viable path of progression into newer, higher level zones.
What we saw with games like WoW in the Burning Crusade, was everything players accomplished in vanilla become almost instantly worthless. We literally replaced our rare dungeon and raid drops with the first quest rewards in Hellfire peninsula. They leveled the playing field by stepping on their loyal players to entice new players to start playing or come back. It was a disgusting practice.
Proper progression, time investment and integrity of design are some of the key differences between a virtual world and modern MMOs. It is crucial that you don't devalue either the player's or the developer's time devotion to the world and its content by allowing new players to circumvent it.
Perhaps way down the line, this sort of thing will need to be addressed. It will depend on the population and Visionary Realms approach to revamping old content. Its honestly not even relevant to this thread, though admittedly, the design philosophy is contrary to what we hope to see applied in the creation of Pantheon.
Look at the progression of our discussion. In each stage of progression, CalmOceans as made it known that tenant after tenant of this game is invalid, a failure, etc... and the reason is because people like you and I are blinded by nostalgia and too stupid to understand the problems and wonderful solutions that mainstream provided.
Sorry Dullahan, if you think I am being too harsh, if Brad does, that I understand because you want to be neutral, open and receptive to encourage this games success, but I have been there, watched it over and over again with game after game over the decades. Nothing is to be gained by placating these types. I am not saying VR should be aggressive, they should remain neutral, being polite and receptive, but this isn't my first rodeo and I refuse to play nice with people I KNOW don't give a shit about this game and want it to be the next retarded mainstream gimmick because they are bored from their last retarded mainstream gimmick. Sorry, no disrespect, but I am not going to do it.
You have seen my discussion here. I am fair and honest, and polite to those who are willing to discuss logically, but I will not accept fallacy after fallacy and arguments made from 3rd positions to claim understanding (ie I played EQs progression servers, they are easy mode!), I dealt with enough of such ignorance during the monk nerfs.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It is usually a rewards for the so called "Dailes" quests in some games are dropped by killing Bosses.
WoW introduced them first and as always everyone else copied that, often abusing it.
I mean, it is a touchy issue as Brad pointed out, on one side, you don't want to run off people who are genuinely interested, but at the same time, you don't want to let the forums go uncontested to the trash talkers.
It isn't like I am being unreasonable in my contest. I met their points and called them on it. If it runs them off, do we really care that someone who was trash talking the game stopped posting? Notice how you and Dullahan are admonishing me and yet do you see me going off on you guys? Nope... It is a equal and opposite force type of thing. People who are civil and attempt to be reasonable have no fear of me, regardless if I agree with them or not.
By the way, this isn't discussing, this is shit talking:
You realize he was appointed senior designer of Everquest in 2013, working for Smedley and SoE, right.
You seem pretty clueless about some things in some of your rants, no offense meant.
You seem pretty clueless of these issues do you not?
Here, let me help you:
http://pantheonmmo.com/game/what_is_pantheon/
http://pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/
http://pantheonmmo.com/game/game_features/
http://pantheonmmo.com/game/game_tenets/
Maybe I am out of place though right? Maybe Brad is making EQ Next (aka WoW next?) and I am just out of place. Maybe you can direct me to the spot where I should be?