I really must wonder when people say things like "more classes are easier to balance".
Perhaps a more accurate statement would be "more people are likely to be satisfied when there are more classes". As I see it, having more varied classes will always be harder to significantly "balance"; you'll just be adding more variables, more situations to find yourself at an advantage or disadvantage in. This sounds like it'll make very small scale combat (below your optimal x-man group size) very rock paper scissorsy, but with so many variables, it also makes things chaotic enough that you might have plenty of opportunities where you have the upper hand (or at least think you do :p). In larger scale combat, such things become hidden, and most people can be happy however the state of things.
filmoret said:
This is one of the best things I loved about Archeage and Rift. There was tons of classes with many different builds. Not many games can do classes so well.
This might have worked in ArcheAge, where you can switch classes relatively easily (without rerolling).
In CU, however, you can only reroll or hope for buffs if you feel like your class is generally weak. This could be fine for altoholics, but for someone who gets very attached to one character and focuses everything on that char, it would really suck. It's no fun feeling like you're often useless just because you picked the wrong class.
Hopefully, the huge number of intervening/uncertain factors will make combat dynamic and complex enough for someone to feel like they have a chance against what would be a hard counter in another game. Character customization would help with this too.
I really must wonder when people say things like "more classes are easier to balance".
Perhaps a more accurate statement would be "more people are likely to be satisfied when there are more classes". As I see it, having more varied classes will always be harder to significantly "balance"; you'll just be adding more variables, more situations to find yourself at an advantage or disadvantage in. This sounds like it'll make very small scale combat (below your optimal x-man group size) very rock paper scissorsy, but with so many variables, it also makes things chaotic enough that you might have plenty of opportunities where you have the upper hand (or at least think you do ). In larger scale combat, such things become hidden, and most people can be happy however the state of things.
Hey, but wouldn't that be balance? Or you use the word for some abstract, un-achieveable absolute distant dream?
Bring on the classes,, iv been gaming non stop for 15 years and DAOC was by far the most fun game iv played, Mainly due to all the possible class/race combos and the indepth ranking system that gives you points to spend on a huge list of abilities (RA's).Oh also the AMAZING rvr/pvp system, no other game even came close to the amount of fun iv had raiding and fighting others in DAoC,,i even remember the old frontier!..i CANNOT WAIT for Camelot Unchained and if its anything like Dark Age of Camelot then count me in,and for the long haul.
Loving every update City State puts out there and I enjoyed having all these weekly class reveals throughout fall. I dislike the simple, linear, and safe attempts at classes, who make very few generalized classes. The more the better and the more diverse the better. From my 16 years of mmo pvp experience, I've seen less balancing issues with mmo's with many classes than the ones with very few. Perhaps it's just the developers of some games are incompetent while others are not.
LOL what?!
DAoC was one of the worst balanced MMOs made.
So much disparity between classes, even within the same Realm.
And a lot of the "good" classes were just one trick ponies.
MMOs with lots of classes suck for balancing because classes will get lost in the crowd and eventually forgotten.
It is true. DAoC had balancing issues, but you have to keep in mind that it was the first professional MMO heavily focusing on large scale PvP (RvR) while offering a great diversity when it comes to classes. It is just normal that such an innovative system included flaws and what is of major importance - most balancing issues were related to new classes and class abilitites that were implemented in a faulty way. A good example is the Savage class and the swapped chances for triple and quad hits or the missing line-of-sight check for point-blank-area-effects. Both lead to imbalances in RvR. Some bugs could only be "abused" by certain classes, others by corresponding classes of all realms.
On the other hand you have to keep in mind that such a broad varity of classes provides a lot more diversity, also in terms of fights because different tactics are needed to engage certain classes, more immersion and a lot more character identification. Your characters or classes purpose is much clearer defined and therefore restricted. While the term restricted sounds negative, it paves the way for great group mechanics and socialization. You simply have to team up with players of different classes to reach the maximum group potential.
Following, an example for group setups in DAoC:
1) Main Heal Class (Cleric | Healer | Druid) 2) Main Buff Class (Cleric | Shaman | Druid) 3) Main Crowd Control Class (Sorcerer | Healer | Bard) 4) Support Class 5) Damage Dealer 6) Damage Dealer 7) Damage Dealer 8) Damage Dealer
Slots 1 to 3 were always restricted to the given classes. The support class at slot 4 was for example the Skald in Midgard, the Warden in Hibernia or the Paladin in Albion. Some groups altered this 4th group slot to be filled with another damage dealer. Others took another Healing class with them. It was dependent on what the group wanted to do. Slots 5 to 8 were filled with damage dealer classes, be it melee damage dealers, ranged magic damage dealers or point blank damage dealers or sometimes even with another healing class to further increase survivability. The point is you could do so many different things and your decision on what classes to bring also changed the utilities you brought with you.
The most interesting aspect about DAoCs class system is that it was rewarding. Teaming up with other players brought the overall experience to a whole new level. Your character became tremendously stronger and all of a sudden you could do things that you have never dreamed of before such as clearing whole spots of red/purple con monsters.
I think in the end it all depends on what you like and what you think about MMOs. To me MMOs have never been eSports games that must be balanced at all costs. To me MMOs always were games with a focus on adventure, immersion and socialization. I loved my Skald in DAoC. He could do things other classes were not able to do like helping a bunch of caster players to get the Staff of The Gods with Sojourner teleport. Also, I could easily roam the RvR areas and pick my fights due to my runspeed chant. On the other hand I couldn't do things other classes were able to do such as a Pet Spiritmaster soloing boss monsters or a sneaky Infiltrator dragonfanging casters.
Unfortunately, such diversity and uniqueness was lost in the process of developing balanced MMOs that cater to the masses.
Comments
Perhaps a more accurate statement would be "more people are likely to be satisfied when there are more classes". As I see it, having more varied classes will always be harder to significantly "balance"; you'll just be adding more variables, more situations to find yourself at an advantage or disadvantage in. This sounds like it'll make very small scale combat (below your optimal x-man group size) very rock paper scissorsy, but with so many variables, it also makes things chaotic enough that you might have plenty of opportunities where you have the upper hand (or at least think you do :p). In larger scale combat, such things become hidden, and most people can be happy however the state of things.
This is one of the best things I loved about Archeage and Rift. There was tons of classes with many different builds. Not many games can do classes so well.
This might have worked in ArcheAge, where you can switch classes relatively easily (without rerolling).
In CU, however, you can only reroll or hope for buffs if you feel like your class is generally weak. This could be fine for altoholics, but for someone who gets very attached to one character and focuses everything on that char, it would really suck. It's no fun feeling like you're often useless just because you picked the wrong class.
Hopefully, the huge number of intervening/uncertain factors will make combat dynamic and complex enough for someone to feel like they have a chance against what would be a hard counter in another game. Character customization would help with this too.
DAoC was one of the worst balanced MMOs made.
So much disparity between classes, even within the same Realm.
And a lot of the "good" classes were just one trick ponies.
MMOs with lots of classes suck for balancing because classes will get lost in the crowd and eventually forgotten.
On the other hand you have to keep in mind that such a broad varity of classes provides a lot more diversity, also in terms of fights because different tactics are needed to engage certain classes, more immersion and a lot more character identification. Your characters or classes purpose is much clearer defined and therefore restricted. While the term restricted sounds negative, it paves the way for great group mechanics and socialization. You simply have to team up with players of different classes to reach the maximum group potential.
Following, an example for group setups in DAoC:
1) Main Heal Class (Cleric | Healer | Druid)
2) Main Buff Class (Cleric | Shaman | Druid)
3) Main Crowd Control Class (Sorcerer | Healer | Bard)
4) Support Class
5) Damage Dealer
6) Damage Dealer
7) Damage Dealer
8) Damage Dealer
Slots 1 to 3 were always restricted to the given classes. The support class at slot 4 was for example the Skald in Midgard, the Warden in Hibernia or the Paladin in Albion. Some groups altered this 4th group slot to be filled with another damage dealer. Others took another Healing class with them. It was dependent on what the group wanted to do. Slots 5 to 8 were filled with damage dealer classes, be it melee damage dealers, ranged magic damage dealers or point blank damage dealers or sometimes even with another healing class to further increase survivability. The point is you could do so many different things and your decision on what classes to bring also changed the utilities you brought with you.
The most interesting aspect about DAoCs class system is that it was rewarding. Teaming up with other players brought the overall experience to a whole new level. Your character became tremendously stronger and all of a sudden you could do things that you have never dreamed of before such as clearing whole spots of red/purple con monsters.
I think in the end it all depends on what you like and what you think about MMOs. To me MMOs have never been eSports games that must be balanced at all costs. To me MMOs always were games with a focus on adventure, immersion and socialization. I loved my Skald in DAoC. He could do things other classes were not able to do like helping a bunch of caster players to get the Staff of The Gods with Sojourner teleport. Also, I could easily roam the RvR areas and pick my fights due to my runspeed chant. On the other hand I couldn't do things other classes were able to do such as a Pet Spiritmaster soloing boss monsters or a sneaky Infiltrator dragonfanging casters.
Unfortunately, such diversity and uniqueness was lost in the process of developing balanced MMOs that cater to the masses.