That's from August 2014. SOE was willing to spend, and potentially lose and write-off, what was necessary. CN simply hasn't shown that with cut backs across the entire company at Daybreak.
CN is a multi-billion dollar company. They can seemingly lose for the first 3 years than wait until the game turns profits. CN also still owns the Rock Band franchise and haven't sold it despite it not making a legit game since 2012.
It took them five years to do anything with Rock Band, then released Rock Band 4 which barely made the top 10 lists for sales during the week it was released in early October 2015 and is a bared-bones game with scores/reviews considerably lower than rest of franchise. That's a hard fall considering how popular the original Rock Band was.
So they sat on the Rock Band IP for 5 years then released a significant disappointment in terms of sales (and with a Metacritic score in the high 70s, it's a huge drop from the rest of the franchise...the three prior games were all in the 90s). That's not a good example of why you think CN will spend the $50-$100 million plus to finish EQN properly. I would argue that's further proof CN hasn't and won't spend what's necessary for a proper EQN.
So one of their existing IPs didn't do so well. Doesn't mean they won't put money into their new aquisition. If anything they will give them their shot. So your saying they decreased the money they put into that franchise when they aquired them? You'll have to provide evidence of that.
Mercernaries/followers Level agnostic dungeons cross server dungeons mentoring system WoD and Legion are stated to be coming out with all of those. Guess which game has that currently? *cough EQ2
It's a one and done though instead of tailoring every npc to say a tailored text and code. They (npcs) can pop in like the matrixs agent smith and ask for rat tails when you come accross a wrecked village destroyed by orcs... No, Domino assured it won't take as long. DG also stated they are 60% feature done with EQNext with the rest in RnD.
I don't follow either but not surprising. With how much bleeding WoW is doing, guess they are going for every possible casual friendly way to keep people coming back as possible, which EQ/EQ2 had to do long ago.
We don't know how how "dynamic" the AI will be as they haven't been able to show us anything. From what was shown of the basic Storybricks tech, they still have to create all the options that could then be triggered by doing XYZ. The AI can't think up quests on its own as far as I know. Skynet has a ways to go.
CN is a multi-billion dollar company. They can seemingly lose for the first 3 years than wait until the game turns profits. CN also still owns the Rock Band franchise and haven't sold it despite it not making a legit game since 2012.
It took them five years to do anything with Rock Band, then released Rock Band 4 which barely made the top 10 lists for sales during the week it was released in early October 2015 and is a bared-bones game with scores/reviews considerably lower than rest of franchise. That's a hard fall considering how popular the original Rock Band was.
So they sat on the Rock Band IP for 5 years then released a significant disappointment in terms of sales (and with a Metacritic score in the high 70s, it's a huge drop from the rest of the franchise...the three prior games were all in the 90s). That's not a good example of why you think CN will spend the $50-$100 million plus to finish EQN properly. I would argue that's further proof CN hasn't and won't spend what's necessary for a proper EQN.
So one of their existing IPs didn't do so well. Doesn't mean they won't put money into their new aquisition. If anything they will give them their shot. So your saying they decreased the money they put into that franchise when they aquired them? You'll have to provide evidence of that.
We know CN didn't reinvest their Rock Band 3 profits back into games at Harmonix. That's simply a fact based on what was released from 2010-2015.
They've also since all but ceased development on Landmark, H1Z1, and Planetside 2. That's all fact which is hard to argue against.
So there are multiple examples of them cutting back and/or not investing back into games that once made money. And that's a terrible sign for EQN with all investment news being negative and now going dark completely on the project.
You have to be in lollipops, rainbows and unicorn land to view what's going on with CN's history of lack of investment in games to think EQN is right on track.
The story telling will be told when a certain game changing event happens. According to storybricks demo it is when a event is triggered by a common requisite and then the "end game" begins with the conflict, climax, then resolution. I figure these are ended by the completion of a rallying call. After that the landscape of the game will change entirely. Not sure how to code that only storybricks knows that but if they the devs in EQN can utilize this. This will mean the first of many mmos that use this type of content.
Either way, the game is being dev driven and removing some of the sand from the so called sandbox. Not that it is bad, but calling it the biggest sandbox ever doesn't make it so.
While I have hope for the AI, the fact that StoryBricks wasn't able to get any other companies interest doesn't make it sound too promising. If the AI or basic tech was truly amazing, Blizzard or whatever company with a few bucks to spend could of snapped it up for a rainy day.
From what they showed at SOE Live 2014, looked like the AI was the typical triggered stuff we see in other games. Wear X item and a certain mob will do Y. Adding 5 options as to what they'll do is more entertaining, but not really that special to me. Still haven't seen it with combat which is what I'm mostly concerned about. Challenge.
CN is a multi-billion dollar company. They can seemingly lose for the first 3 years than wait until the game turns profits. CN also still owns the Rock Band franchise and haven't sold it despite it not making a legit game since 2012.
It took them five years to do anything with Rock Band, then released Rock Band 4 which barely made the top 10 lists for sales during the week it was released in early October 2015 and is a bared-bones game with scores/reviews considerably lower than rest of franchise. That's a hard fall considering how popular the original Rock Band was.
So they sat on the Rock Band IP for 5 years then released a significant disappointment in terms of sales (and with a Metacritic score in the high 70s, it's a huge drop from the rest of the franchise...the three prior games were all in the 90s). That's not a good example of why you think CN will spend the $50-$100 million plus to finish EQN properly. I would argue that's further proof CN hasn't and won't spend what's necessary for a proper EQN.
So one of their existing IPs didn't do so well. Doesn't mean they won't put money into their new aquisition. If anything they will give them their shot. So your saying they decreased the money they put into that franchise when they aquired them? You'll have to provide evidence of that.
We know CN didn't reinvest their Rock Band 3 profits back into games at Harmonix. That's simply a fact based on what was released from 2010-2015.
They've also since all but ceased development on Landmark, H1Z1, and Planetside 2. That's all fact which is hard to argue against.
So there are multiple examples of them cutting back and/or not investing back into games that once made money. And that's a terrible sign for EQN with all investment news being negative and now going dark completely on the project.
You have to be in lollipops, rainbows and unicorn land to view what's going on with CN's history of lack of investment in games to think EQN is right on track.
The important thing is they released a game.
Landmark big update coming. H1Z1 they are adding the new map and updating game every 2 weeks. Planetside 2 they added bases and a new points strategic capturing system as well as automated turrets and released it in ps4. That's easy to argue with.
What are the examples of them cutting back or not investing in their IPs you still havent showed me anything but your logic assumption.
Why would a billion dollar company hurt Daybreak? The staff are surely VERY EXCITED about the change and moved into a new office building. You think they will scrap that as well?
You guys have to understand CN just gave Daybreak a new building why the hell would they just scrap the company dry after that??
You seem to think that the decision to move DBG into a single building somehow indicates that EQ:N is still healthy. Lots of reasons to make that move: reduced traveling and communication costs between sites, potential to reduce management positions, reduced occupancy costs etc. None of which have any bearing (positive or negative) on the status of EQ:N.
Now at some point Columbus Nova might pull the pin and wind up DBG (no sign of that yet) and if they do they will do for pure financial reasons. Again nothing much to do with EQ:N.
What we do know is that the flow of information about EQ:N has dried up. We also can see indications of reductions to the team size (internal transfer of staff from the EQ:N team to other projects) and we have been told there is another game under development, now the staff working on that title had to come from somewhere and the only place seems to be from the EQ:N team.
Finally has anyone one heard anything from Terrry Michaels since the 1st of November? There are no tweets from him and although I do not follow EQ:N that closely it seems nothing else either.
CN is a multi-billion dollar company. They can seemingly lose for the first 3 years than wait until the game turns profits. CN also still owns the Rock Band franchise and haven't sold it despite it not making a legit game since 2012.
It took them five years to do anything with Rock Band, then released Rock Band 4 which barely made the top 10 lists for sales during the week it was released in early October 2015 and is a bared-bones game with scores/reviews considerably lower than rest of franchise. That's a hard fall considering how popular the original Rock Band was.
So they sat on the Rock Band IP for 5 years then released a significant disappointment in terms of sales (and with a Metacritic score in the high 70s, it's a huge drop from the rest of the franchise...the three prior games were all in the 90s). That's not a good example of why you think CN will spend the $50-$100 million plus to finish EQN properly. I would argue that's further proof CN hasn't and won't spend what's necessary for a proper EQN.
So one of their existing IPs didn't do so well. Doesn't mean they won't put money into their new aquisition. If anything they will give them their shot. So your saying they decreased the money they put into that franchise when they aquired them? You'll have to provide evidence of that.
We know CN didn't reinvest their Rock Band 3 profits back into games at Harmonix. That's simply a fact based on what was released from 2010-2015.
They've also since all but ceased development on Landmark, H1Z1, and Planetside 2. That's all fact which is hard to argue against.
So there are multiple examples of them cutting back and/or not investing back into games that once made money. And that's a terrible sign for EQN with all investment news being negative and now going dark completely on the project.
You have to be in lollipops, rainbows and unicorn land to view what's going on with CN's history of lack of investment in games to think EQN is right on track.
The important thing is they released a game.
Landmark big update coming. H1Z1 they are adding the new map and updating game every 2 weeks. Planetside 2 they added bases and a new points strategic capturing system as well as automated turrets and released it in ps4. That's easy to argue with.
What are the examples of them cutting back or not investing in their IPs you still havent showed me anything but your logic assumption.
Why would a billion dollar company hurt Daybreak? The staff are surely VERY EXCITED about the change and moved into a new office building. You think they will scrap that as well?
So updates to H1Z1 and Planetside 2 are now at a snails pace at best. That's a huge drop-off from when SOE was actively investing in them. Landmark, supposedly, has a big update coming, but I'll believe it when I see it considering the game is in little more than maintenance mode (and has been for several months). Ceasing co-developed on Landmark/EQN is certainly a big cut-back when you look at what they were supposed to become based on the original 2013 announcement.
The long-term trend for everything is cut back compared to where they were a year ago. That's hard to argue. And the move to a new building is another cost-cutting measure.
The overall cost-cutting trend by Daybreak isn't a good sign for EQN and there is no sugar coating it. On top of that there is now radio silence regarding EQN.
You guys have to understand CN just gave Daybreak a new building why the hell would they just scrap the company dry after that??
You seem to think that the decision to move DBG into a single building somehow indicates that EQ:N is still healthy. Lots of reasons to make that move: reduced traveling and communication costs between sites, potential to reduce management positions, reduced occupancy costs etc. None of which have any bearing (positive or negative) on the status of EQ:N.
Now at some point Columbus Nova might pull the pin and wind up DBG (no sign of that yet) and if they do they will do for pure financial reasons. Again nothing much to do with EQ:N.
What we do know is that the flow of information about EQ:N has dried up. We also can see indications of reductions to the team size (internal transfer of staff from the EQ:N team to other projects) and we have been told there is another game under development, now the staff working on that title had to come from somewhere and the only place seems to be from the EQ:N team.
Finally has anyone one heard anything from Terrry Michaels since the 1st of November? There are no tweets from him and although I do not follow EQ:N that closely it seems nothing else either.
Reduced communication costs meaning the radio and internet is somehow faster? Thats negligible. Traveling costs are out of the pockets of employees so the company doesn't save. potential reduced management they already did that. Reduced occupancy, actually the building they moved into is much more expensive than the old one.
They haven't pulled the pin on other IPs they own. Actually, they havent sold anything. Sony only sold SOE because it was in trouble.
Domino going to EQ2 doesn't mean EQNext is being neglected. It means her talents are needed elsewhere and other people move in on her place.
<snip> do you think about 70k loyal followers are enough to make this game successful? Damn right! It could turn a profit in about 3 years time. If i was Columbus Nova i would pump 50 million into this game and see it grow. It's only right for the franchise that's been waiting 14 years for it...
$50M? Knowing that Sony wrote of $60M. Can't see CN spending that but ok .... Allowing for the 3 years additional costs to run the game - whilst they "make back their money" - even if they fire almost everybody there will still be support costs; allow for the return on investment that they will be expecting i.e. CN will want to earn more than they have spent, a gross profit of say 70% (maybe more); plus what they have spent on the game since February; ignore whatever part of the purchase cost was tagged EQN and:
70k people would need to spend about $1,600 to $2,000 before sales tax - say $2k to $2.5k. Around $65 to $75 a month every month for 3 years. Nothing in those costs to allow for "new content" either just basic support. Tough sell imo.
If I was CN I will have seen what has happened to WS this last year and be very wary indeed.
Every company should move to bigger buildings if it reduces costs they did it to expand increase morale and throw money away and establish itself, bigger work areas for more work projects. This is a sign CN invested in Daybreak NOT to bleed it dry.
Reduced communication costs meaning the radio and internet is somehow faster? Thats negligible. Traveling costs are out of the pockets of employees so the company doesn't save. potential reduced management they already did that. Reduced occupancy, actually the building they moved into is much more expensive than the old one.
How much did the building cost? Real estate here in San Diego is high regardless, but wondering how much they paid.
I live ~10 min away from old and new locations. Older one was in a congested area near a military base, new one is a bit away from others. They also had multiple buildings and they appear to be in one now. No clue how any of that impacts cost though. Can only assume that multiple buildings > single building over time.
Clearly they plan to keep DBG going for as long as it pulls in profits, but we have no clue how much they are willing to dump into any game. For all we know, they have 10 mobile games in the works and mmos will be the lowest priority.
<snip> do you think about 70k loyal followers are enough to make this game successful? Damn right! It could turn a profit in about 3 years time. If i was Columbus Nova i would pump 50 million into this game and see it grow. It's only right for the franchise that's been waiting 14 years for it...
$50M? Knowing that Sony wrote of $60M. Can't see CN spending that but ok .... Allowing for the 3 years additional costs to run the game - whilst they "make back their money" - even if they fire almost everybody there will still be support costs; allow for the return on investment that they will be expecting i.e. CN will want to earn more than they have spent, a gross profit of say 70% (maybe more); plus what they have spent on the game since February; ignore whatever part of the purchase cost was tagged EQN and:
70k people would need to spend about $1,600 to $2,000 before sales tax - say $2k to $2.5k. Around $65 to $75 a month every month for 3 years. Nothing in those costs to allow for "new content" either just basic support. Tough sell imo.
If I was CN I will have seen what has happened to WS this last year and be very wary indeed.
70k x 15 = 1.05 million a month. 36 million on subs + $$ from cash shops character slots =50 million. x 10 =500% investment return.
<snip> do you think about 70k loyal followers are enough to make this game successful? Damn right! It could turn a profit in about 3 years time. If i was Columbus Nova i would pump 50 million into this game and see it grow. It's only right for the franchise that's been waiting 14 years for it...
$50M? Knowing that Sony wrote of $60M. Can't see CN spending that but ok .... Allowing for the 3 years additional costs to run the game - whilst they "make back their money" - even if they fire almost everybody there will still be support costs; allow for the return on investment that they will be expecting i.e. CN will want to earn more than they have spent, a gross profit of say 70% (maybe more); plus what they have spent on the game since February; ignore whatever part of the purchase cost was tagged EQN and:
70k people would need to spend about $1,600 to $2,000 before sales tax - say $2k to $2.5k. Around $65 to $75 a month every month for 3 years. Nothing in those costs to allow for "new content" either just basic support. Tough sell imo.
If I was CN I will have seen what has happened to WS this last year and be very wary indeed.
70k x 15 = 1.05 million a month. 36 million on subs + $$ from cash shops character slots =50 million. x 10 =500% investment return.
Considering Daybreak's games are all either free to play or buy to play ($20) how many years would it take them to make back $50-$75 million or more on EQN? (The big MMOs recently are all exceeding $100 million these days).
I think that right there was the question top CN executives asked early on and didn't like the answer (and why the $50 million plus was never invested in the first place for a proper EQN game).
<snip> do you think about 70k loyal followers are enough to make this game successful? Damn right! It could turn a profit in about 3 years time. If i was Columbus Nova i would pump 50 million into this game and see it grow. It's only right for the franchise that's been waiting 14 years for it...
$50M? Knowing that Sony wrote of $60M. Can't see CN spending that but ok .... Allowing for the 3 years additional costs to run the game - whilst they "make back their money" - even if they fire almost everybody there will still be support costs; allow for the return on investment that they will be expecting i.e. CN will want to earn more than they have spent, a gross profit of say 70% (maybe more); plus what they have spent on the game since February; ignore whatever part of the purchase cost was tagged EQN and:
70k people would need to spend about $1,600 to $2,000 before sales tax - say $2k to $2.5k. Around $65 to $75 a month every month for 3 years. Nothing in those costs to allow for "new content" either just basic support. Tough sell imo.
If I was CN I will have seen what has happened to WS this last year and be very wary indeed.
70k x 15 = 1.05 million a month. 36 million on subs + $$ from cash shops character slots =50 million. x 10 =500% investment return.
Considering Daybreak's games are all either free to play or buy to play ($20) how many years would it take them to make back $50-$75 million or more on EQN? (The big MMOs recently are all exceeding $100 million these days).
I think that right there was the question top CN executives asked early on and didn't like the answer (and why the $50 million plus was never invested in the first place for a proper EQN game).
Why would Daybreak care what other companies are making? Are they saying. Well im not making 100 million a year lets not make 12 million a year in profit after 3 years. NO, THATS MONEY. Companies will never turn down money or profit. "Yeah guys, lets not make 75 million in 6 years since other companies are making more". Companies don't compete that way. ANd its not like they congregate and say yeah im not going to do this game cause you guys (Blizzard) is making more than i do. NO. They will feed their families i guarentee you. Maybe the workload might deter them but since the work is done by employees why would the suits care? That is the silliest argument i have heard here.
<snip> do you think about 70k loyal followers are enough to make this game successful? Damn right! It could turn a profit in about 3 years time. If i was Columbus Nova i would pump 50 million into this game and see it grow. It's only right for the franchise that's been waiting 14 years for it...
$50M? Knowing that Sony wrote of $60M. Can't see CN spending that but ok .... Allowing for the 3 years additional costs to run the game - whilst they "make back their money" - even if they fire almost everybody there will still be support costs; allow for the return on investment that they will be expecting i.e. CN will want to earn more than they have spent, a gross profit of say 70% (maybe more); plus what they have spent on the game since February; ignore whatever part of the purchase cost was tagged EQN and:
70k people would need to spend about $1,600 to $2,000 before sales tax - say $2k to $2.5k. Around $65 to $75 a month every month for 3 years. Nothing in those costs to allow for "new content" either just basic support. Tough sell imo.
If I was CN I will have seen what has happened to WS this last year and be very wary indeed.
70k x 15 = 1.05 million a month. 36 million on subs + $$ from cash shops character slots =50 million. x 10 =500% investment return.
Considering Daybreak's games are all either free to play or buy to play ($20) how many years would it take them to make back $50-$75 million or more on EQN? (The big MMOs recently are all exceeding $100 million these days).
I think that right there was the question top CN executives asked early on and didn't like the answer (and why the $50 million plus was never invested in the first place for a proper EQN game).
Why would Daybreak care what other companies are making? Are they saying. Well im not making 100 million a year lets not make 12 million a year in profit after 3 years. NO, THATS MONEY. Companies will never turn down money or profit. "Yeah guys, lets not make 75 million in 6 years since other companies are making more". Companies don't compete that way. ANd its not like they congregate and say yeah im not going to do this game cause you guys (Blizzard) is making more than i do. NO. They will feed their families i guarentee you. Maybe the workload might deter them but since the work is done by employees why would the suits care? That is the silliest argument i have heard here.
I was referring to recent development costs not profits. Big-name, triple-A MMOs are easily reaching $75 million with more and more exceeding $100 million. So $50 million for a proper EQN (as originally announced in 2013) would arguably be a conservative amount.
To answer your question: because massive, triple-A MMOs are expensive to make and no guarantee to ever make a profit. They're also getting canceled by even developers like Blizzard and a lot are having to switch to F2P just to be profitable (with most of those getting shut-down far quicker than the original publishers hoped for when providing the funding).
The current MMO atmosphere in no way guarantees profit. The market is saturated and unless you bring something really special and fun to the table, gamers aren't going to stick around long. They've shown they might play your new MMO for a few weeks then move on until the next expansion.
So when CN executives found out they would have to spend $50-$75 million on something that is a significant gamble to ever make their money back in a very competitive and over-saturated market, they likely never greenlite the funds necessary.
My question to you is why do you just assume 'EQN' in December 2015 is anything remotely related to what SOE announced in 2013 after all that has occurred in the last ten months?
You guys have to understand CN just gave Daybreak a new building why the hell would they just scrap the company dry after that??
You seem to think that the decision to move DBG into a single building somehow indicates that EQ:N is still healthy. Lots of reasons to make that move: reduced traveling and communication costs between sites, potential to reduce management positions, reduced occupancy costs etc. None of which have any bearing (positive or negative) on the status of EQ:N.
Now at some point Columbus Nova might pull the pin and wind up DBG (no sign of that yet) and if they do they will do for pure financial reasons. Again nothing much to do with EQ:N.
What we do know is that the flow of information about EQ:N has dried up. We also can see indications of reductions to the team size (internal transfer of staff from the EQ:N team to other projects) and we have been told there is another game under development, now the staff working on that title had to come from somewhere and the only place seems to be from the EQ:N team.
Finally has anyone one heard anything from Terrry Michaels since the 1st of November? There are no tweets from him and although I do not follow EQ:N that closely it seems nothing else either.
Reduced communication costs meaning the radio and internet is somehow faster? Thats negligible. Traveling costs are out of the pockets of employees so the company doesn't save. potential reduced management they already did that. Reduced occupancy, actually the building they moved into is much more expensive than the old one.
They haven't pulled the pin on other IPs they own. Actually, they havent sold anything. Sony only sold SOE because it was in trouble.
Domino going to EQ2 doesn't mean EQNext is being neglected. It means her talents are needed elsewhere and other people move in on her place.
Communication is not just "radio and internet" in fact that is pretty negligible. It is meetings, time spent on telephone calls, traveling between sites etc.
While the building they may have moved may be more expensive than the old main site what they did was move from four different sites and consolidate on one purpose built location. BTW the time it takes to plan, get building permissions construct and move suggests that the decision to move goes back to the time when the company was still part of Sony.
"They haven't pulled the pin on other IPs they own. Actually, they havent
sold anything. Sony only sold SOE because it was in trouble" while true this has nothing to do with my post, nothing at all. Nor does it tell you anything about EQ:N
Yes Pentapod/Domino moved from EQ:N back to the Everquest team, but that was not the only move, as to your suggestion that other people moved in, where from? There is no evidence that anyone was moved or hired to replace her or the others that were moved.
Allein said: The AI can't think up quests on its own as far as I know.
Procedurally generating quests is not something new. It is the majority of the quest you can get in Daggerfall. Any NPCs in that game has a random chance of giving you a quests. Shadow of Mordor has the Nemesis system that generate enemies based on your action and Skyrim/Fallout has the Radiant Quest system which is a toned down Daggerfall system. Most of the older Space Sims also had procedural quest generation.
These systems all have their differences, but they all do the same thing: generate endless quests.
I haven't seen anything in SOE/Daybreak explanation of what they wanted to do that was beyond what have already been done in the last 20+ years outside of the granularity (that just mean more data to input) and the challenge of doing that in a online game (players killing your target before you and persistence of changes affecting everyone).
Finally has anyone one heard anything from Terrry Michaels since the 1st of November? There are no tweets from him and although I do not follow EQ:N that closely it seems nothing else either.
He just posted when the Landmark update is going to happen this Wednesday. He also closed some bugs on Landmark public bug tracker on November 18th.
Also, going by very recent twitters Emily (Domino) is back on EQNext/Landmark team, her going to EQ2 was just for the expansion.
I would also argue an investment firm actually investing in Everquest Next development would have been announced. I think Daybreak quickly figured out they didn't have the $50,$75, or even $100 million necessary to make a proper EQN MMO.
I do not believe that money was an issue. CN is a multi-billion dollar company that bought SOE, now Daybreak. If there is a plan to continue with EQ:N, money seems unlikely to be the issue. Unrealistic / ill-defined project goals or lack of development talent (both existing and previously released) or untenable financial prospects each seem much more likely causes for the apparent stoppage than money.
You're joking, right? Money isn't an issue to an investment firm? Since when?
I bet you someone at the investment firm about had a heart attack when told it would take another $50-$75 million to complete EQN properly as a triple-A quality MMO. And that's when EQN, as previously announced by SOE, ceased to exist.
The investment firm simply will not invest tens of millions in a huge risk and write off the loses like Sony was willing to (even Sony lost that ability over a good decade of SOE never making money).
I would continue to argue if the investment firm 'invested' what was actually necessary to complete EQN as announced it would have made news. That's not something an investment firm would have kept quiet. Instead, there has been a lot of news of how Daybreak had divested in a lot of MMOs, including EQN.
You've missed my point. The money was always there. CN chose not to spend it in the same manner that Sony did, i.e., unchecked funding of SOE/Daybreak.
Yes, investment firms are about money. The reason that the EQ:N project is currently in an unknown state of development isn't money. It's about the inability to justify the returns that investment would produce. I've no idea if CN was fully aware of the situation prior to the purchase. Now that they have had time to fully evaluate the portfolio, they appear unconvinced of that project's viability. Whether that evaluation was due to the cost to finish, the ability to finish, a disagreement with the development aims, projections of revenue streams, timelines beyond their own goals, or something entirely different, the result is that CN chose not to invest more money into this particular project than they already had.
Money is the easy part of any business. It's the actual work that's hard.
---------- Let me address your if-the-investment-firm-'invested' statement. We do know that CN bought SOE. That was the news of the investment. That is very likely the last time the public will know anything about the funding of a specific project within a subsidiary company. Generally, the actual sale/merger is all the reporting that the general public will ever see about the transactions between a parent company and its subsidiary. Investments, capitalization, loans, or other means of transferring funds aren't typically publicized. CN's accounting probably isn't attributable to a specific project, even a $200 million loan to Daybreak might not include the term 'EQ:N' on CN's annual report. So, unless someone leaks information from extremely deep in both CN's and Daybreak's internal accounting systems, any post-sale monetary transactions between the two aren't likely to be news-worthy.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Allein said: The AI can't think up quests on its own as far as I know.
Procedurally generating quests is not something new. It is the majority of the quest you can get in Daggerfall. Any NPCs in that game has a random chance of giving you a quests. Shadow of Mordor has the Nemesis system that generate enemies based on your action and Skyrim/Fallout has the Radiant Quest system which is a toned down Daggerfall system. Most of the older Space Sims also had procedural quest generation.
These systems all have their differences, but they all do the same thing: generate endless quests.
I haven't seen anything in SOE/Daybreak explanation of what they wanted to do that was beyond what have already been done in the last 20+ years outside of the granularity (that just mean more data to input) and the challenge of doing that in a online game (players killing your target before you and persistence of changes affecting everyone).
Been a long time since I've seen anyone mention Daggerfall.
Procedurally generated mechanics aren't new, but the way he seemed to be imagining them seems a bit off.
As in Agent Smith coming in and giving a quest at random without any dev input, because sandbox...
Daggerfall had a couple hundred options to pool from if I'm not mistaken and from those, many possibilities could be created, however, someone made all that in some form at some time.
If EQN goes with anything similar, they'll still have a lot of the costs that typical PVE themeparks have, which he seems to believe isn't the case.
Unless I'm wrong, which wouldn't be the first time. They could have some amazing code that turns 10 options into a billion, but Storybricks nor anything else they've shown suggests that.
What separates the games you listed and EQN is the mmo factor and all the variables others create. Sounds fun, but then I can't see it working too smoothly if they try to get crazy with it. Single player games are much easier to plan out.
I would also argue an investment firm actually investing in Everquest Next development would have been announced. I think Daybreak quickly figured out they didn't have the $50,$75, or even $100 million necessary to make a proper EQN MMO.
I do not believe that money was an issue. CN is a multi-billion dollar company that bought SOE, now Daybreak. If there is a plan to continue with EQ:N, money seems unlikely to be the issue. Unrealistic / ill-defined project goals or lack of development talent (both existing and previously released) or untenable financial prospects each seem much more likely causes for the apparent stoppage than money.
You're joking, right? Money isn't an issue to an investment firm? Since when?
I bet you someone at the investment firm about had a heart attack when told it would take another $50-$75 million to complete EQN properly as a triple-A quality MMO. And that's when EQN, as previously announced by SOE, ceased to exist.
The investment firm simply will not invest tens of millions in a huge risk and write off the loses like Sony was willing to (even Sony lost that ability over a good decade of SOE never making money).
I would continue to argue if the investment firm 'invested' what was actually necessary to complete EQN as announced it would have made news. That's not something an investment firm would have kept quiet. Instead, there has been a lot of news of how Daybreak had divested in a lot of MMOs, including EQN.
You've missed my point. The money was always there. CN chose not to spend it in the same manner that Sony did, i.e., unchecked funding of SOE/Daybreak.
Yes, investment firms are about money. The reason that the EQ:N project is currently in an unknown state of development isn't money. It's about the inability to justify the returns that investment would produce. I've no idea if CN was fully aware of the situation prior to the purchase. Now that they have had time to fully evaluate the portfolio, they appear unconvinced of that project's viability. Whether that evaluation was due to the cost to finish, the ability to finish, a disagreement with the development aims, projections of revenue streams, timelines beyond their own goals, or something entirely different, the result is that CN chose not to invest more money into this particular project than they already had.
Money is the easy part of any business. It's the actual work that's hard.
---------- Let me address your if-the-investment-firm-'invested' statement. We do know that CN bought SOE. That was the news of the investment. That is very likely the last time the public will know anything about the funding of a specific project within a subsidiary company. Generally, the actual sale/merger is all the reporting that the general public will ever see about the transactions between a parent company and its subsidiary. Investments, capitalization, loans, or other means of transferring funds aren't typically publicized. CN's accounting probably isn't attributable to a specific project, even a $200 million loan to Daybreak might not include the term 'EQ:N' on CN's annual report. So, unless someone leaks information from extremely deep in both CN's and Daybreak's internal accounting systems, any post-sale monetary transactions between the two aren't likely to be news-worthy.
CN, as an investment firm, was never going to 'work' on EQN nor any game at Daybreak. They control the checkbook or money. So when Daybreak decided not to provide the funds necessary to finish EQN as previously announced in 2013, it was a financial decision. If Daybreak did the quick math and figured it was never worth the gamble to spend $50-$75 million plus, that's still about finances.
So of course it comes down to money when Daybreak didn't receive the funding from CN to proceed with EQN as previously announced (2013 along with Landmark). SOE was willing to write off the losses in hopes of the next big MMO; CN apparently wasn't willing to spend the money nor take that risk.
So, no, the money 'wasn't always there' after the switch from SOE to CN. CN's parent company, the Renova Group, is heavily invested in things like energy, oil and other commodities. Those industries have tanked big time in the last few years with similar firms having a huge problem with prior debts acquired during the boom years exceeding current revenue and value; so it would be a mistake to just assume they had the tens of millions required just sitting around waiting for someone to check some boxes.
To your second point, when I was referring to 'invest' and 'divest' in terms of Daybreak, I meant more than simply money. For divestment - I was referring to employees being fired or moved around internally without replacements being hired, existing projects going into maintenance mode or a trickle at most of new content, and projects previously announced as being discussed openly (or at least parts related to Landmark) and now going dark. For lack of investment - not a single new MMO has been announced and on top of that, several existing titles receiving bare minimum support barely above maintenance mode.
And I would continue to argue that had CN invested in EQN to the extent necessary to meet 2013 announcement standards, it would have made news. It also would have made news had they invested in anything new. When they finally do invest in something new we will certainly hear about it. That's what investment firms do by nature; invest in something then let the world know about it.
So we've heard nothing but divestment by Daybreak across the board with EQN going dark. That's a negative trend in terms of overall investment since SOE was acquired and turned into Daybreak. It's certainly not a good sign for EQN (as previously announced in 2013).
They weren't making "Wildstar 2" for an adoring fanbase eagerly awaiting the next progression of the franchise....and Wildstar as a business model failed at launch regardless of whether you like the game or not.
The long development cycle is what has driven the nail in this coffin. For example, someone posted earlier in the thread about the development team testing for and modding the engine to work with DX 11. Congratulations. DX11 was released in 2008. DX 12 was released with Windows 10 and most of us are just itching to see what it will do in actual practice. This is my point. EQ "Next" lacks momentum... It won't be EQ "Next" if it ever does get released. I doubt it will. If it does, it will be closer to EQ "Never Caught Back Up" or EQ "Left Behind" It won't be relevant...
Maybe they can do a "Blizzard" and turn their work into a MOBA? We all know what Overwatch started out as right?
Allein said: The AI can't think up quests on its own as far as I know.
Procedurally generating quests is not something new. It is the majority of the quest you can get in Daggerfall. Any NPCs in that game has a random chance of giving you a quests. Shadow of Mordor has the Nemesis system that generate enemies based on your action and Skyrim/Fallout has the Radiant Quest system which is a toned down Daggerfall system. Most of the older Space Sims also had procedural quest generation.
These systems all have their differences, but they all do the same thing: generate endless quests.
I haven't seen anything in SOE/Daybreak explanation of what they wanted to do that was beyond what have already been done in the last 20+ years outside of the granularity (that just mean more data to input) and the challenge of doing that in a online game (players killing your target before you and persistence of changes affecting everyone).
Been a long time since I've seen anyone mention Daggerfall.
Procedurally generated mechanics aren't new, but the way he seemed to be imagining them seems a bit off.
As in Agent Smith coming in and giving a quest at random without any dev input, because sandbox...
Daggerfall had a couple hundred options to pool from if I'm not mistaken and from those, many possibilities could be created, however, someone made all that in some form at some time.
If EQN goes with anything similar, they'll still have a lot of the costs that typical PVE themeparks have, which he seems to believe isn't the case.
Unless I'm wrong, which wouldn't be the first time. They could have some amazing code that turns 10 options into a billion, but Storybricks nor anything else they've shown suggests that.
What separates the games you listed and EQN is the mmo factor and all the variables others create. Sounds fun, but then I can't see it working too smoothly if they try to get crazy with it. Single player games are much easier to plan out.
Storybrick was described as a AI simulation at both a macro (setting objectives for a whole faction) and micro level (the behavior of an individual NPC). It cause events to occur by AI's objectives clashing with each others (the Storybrick demo at SOE Live 2015) and make NPCs more "life-like" (the Dark Elf city stuff at SOE Live 2015).
The quest generation system takes inputs from the AI to build quests tailored to the player or some of them at least.
If there isn't enough "quest templates" (devs still need to define what an escort quest is somewhere aka into the knowledge base of the AI) and the granularity isn't there (too many parts of the templates are static or there is not enough options to set) they will feel repetitive...but not anymore repetitive than killing over and over again a group of monster in a cave to gain XP (no quest involved).
That is if they kept the plan for procedurally generated stuff.
Storybrick was described as a AI simulation at both a macro (setting objectives for a whole faction) and micro level (the behavior of an individual NPC). It cause events to occur by AI's objectives clashing with each others (the Storybrick demo at SOE Live 2015) and make NPCs more "life-like" (the Dark Elf city stuff at SOE Live 2015).
The quest generation system takes inputs from the AI to build quests tailored to the player or some of them at least.
If there isn't enough "quest templates" (devs still need to define what an escort quest is somewhere aka into the knowledge base of the AI) and the granularity isn't there (too many parts of the templates are static or there is not enough options to set) they will feel repetitive...but not anymore repetitive than killing over and over again a group of monster in a cave to gain XP (no quest involved).
That is if they kept the plan for procedurally generated stuff.
Correct, I get how it works or how it's supposed to, my previous comments were in response to the OP's idea that the AI would do this all on its own without a lot of time/effort by the devs before hand or afterwards.
While we've seen very basic forms of what Storybircks could be or was (assuming they no longer call it that), still no idea if it will function in a mmo setting.
None of their demos were representative of actual mmo gameplay.
Seems like everyone would have a very unique experience, which is good, but sounds like it wouldn't translate into a social experience and would be another single player game that happens to have other running around that we've have for the last 10+ years.
Comments
We don't know how how "dynamic" the AI will be as they haven't been able to show us anything. From what was shown of the basic Storybricks tech, they still have to create all the options that could then be triggered by doing XYZ. The AI can't think up quests on its own as far as I know. Skynet has a ways to go.
DG said a lot of things, now he is gone.
They've also since all but ceased development on Landmark, H1Z1, and Planetside 2. That's all fact which is hard to argue against.
So there are multiple examples of them cutting back and/or not investing back into games that once made money. And that's a terrible sign for EQN with all investment news being negative and now going dark completely on the project.
You have to be in lollipops, rainbows and unicorn land to view what's going on with CN's history of lack of investment in games to think EQN is right on track.
While I have hope for the AI, the fact that StoryBricks wasn't able to get any other companies interest doesn't make it sound too promising. If the AI or basic tech was truly amazing, Blizzard or whatever company with a few bucks to spend could of snapped it up for a rainy day.
From what they showed at SOE Live 2014, looked like the AI was the typical triggered stuff we see in other games. Wear X item and a certain mob will do Y. Adding 5 options as to what they'll do is more entertaining, but not really that special to me. Still haven't seen it with combat which is what I'm mostly concerned about. Challenge.
Landmark big update coming. H1Z1 they are adding the new map and updating game every 2 weeks. Planetside 2 they added bases and a new points strategic capturing system as well as automated turrets and released it in ps4. That's easy to argue with.
What are the examples of them cutting back or not investing in their IPs you still havent showed me anything but your logic assumption.
Why would a billion dollar company hurt Daybreak? The staff are surely VERY EXCITED about the change and moved into a new office building. You think they will scrap that as well?
Now at some point Columbus Nova might pull the pin and wind up DBG (no sign of that yet) and if they do they will do for pure financial reasons. Again nothing much to do with EQ:N.
What we do know is that the flow of information about EQ:N has dried up. We also can see indications of reductions to the team size (internal transfer of staff from the EQ:N team to other projects) and we have been told there is another game under development, now the staff working on that title had to come from somewhere and the only place seems to be from the EQ:N team.
Finally has anyone one heard anything from Terrry Michaels since the 1st of November? There are no tweets from him and although I do not follow EQ:N that closely it seems nothing else either.
The long-term trend for everything is cut back compared to where they were a year ago. That's hard to argue. And the move to a new building is another cost-cutting measure.
The overall cost-cutting trend by Daybreak isn't a good sign for EQN and there is no sugar coating it. On top of that there is now radio silence regarding EQN.
They haven't pulled the pin on other IPs they own. Actually, they havent sold anything. Sony only sold SOE because it was in trouble.
Domino going to EQ2 doesn't mean EQNext is being neglected. It means her talents are needed elsewhere and other people move in on her place.
Allowing for the 3 years additional costs to run the game - whilst they "make back their money" - even if they fire almost everybody there will still be support costs;
allow for the return on investment that they will be expecting i.e. CN will want to earn more than they have spent, a gross profit of say 70% (maybe more);
plus what they have spent on the game since February;
ignore whatever part of the purchase cost was tagged EQN
and:
70k people would need to spend about $1,600 to $2,000 before sales tax - say $2k to $2.5k. Around $65 to $75 a month every month for 3 years. Nothing in those costs to allow for "new content" either just basic support. Tough sell imo.
If I was CN I will have seen what has happened to WS this last year and be very wary indeed.
I live ~10 min away from old and new locations. Older one was in a congested area near a military base, new one is a bit away from others. They also had multiple buildings and they appear to be in one now. No clue how any of that impacts cost though. Can only assume that multiple buildings > single building over time.
Clearly they plan to keep DBG going for as long as it pulls in profits, but we have no clue how much they are willing to dump into any game. For all we know, they have 10 mobile games in the works and mmos will be the lowest priority.
I think that right there was the question top CN executives asked early on and didn't like the answer (and why the $50 million plus was never invested in the first place for a proper EQN game).
To answer your question: because massive, triple-A MMOs are expensive to make and no guarantee to ever make a profit. They're also getting canceled by even developers like Blizzard and a lot are having to switch to F2P just to be profitable (with most of those getting shut-down far quicker than the original publishers hoped for when providing the funding).
The current MMO atmosphere in no way guarantees profit. The market is saturated and unless you bring something really special and fun to the table, gamers aren't going to stick around long. They've shown they might play your new MMO for a few weeks then move on until the next expansion.
So when CN executives found out they would have to spend $50-$75 million on something that is a significant gamble to ever make their money back in a very competitive and over-saturated market, they likely never greenlite the funds necessary.
My question to you is why do you just assume 'EQN' in December 2015 is anything remotely related to what SOE announced in 2013 after all that has occurred in the last ten months?
While the building they may have moved may be more expensive than the old main site what they did was move from four different sites and consolidate on one purpose built location. BTW the time it takes to plan, get building permissions construct and move suggests that the decision to move goes back to the time when the company was still part of Sony.
"They haven't pulled the pin on other IPs they own. Actually, they havent sold anything. Sony only sold SOE because it was in trouble" while true this has nothing to do with my post, nothing at all. Nor does it tell you anything about EQ:N
Yes Pentapod/Domino moved from EQ:N back to the Everquest team, but that was not the only move, as to your suggestion that other people moved in, where from? There is no evidence that anyone was moved or hired to replace her or the others that were moved.
These systems all have their differences, but they all do the same thing: generate endless quests.
I haven't seen anything in SOE/Daybreak explanation of what they wanted to do that was beyond what have already been done in the last 20+ years outside of the granularity (that just mean more data to input) and the challenge of doing that in a online game (players killing your target before you and persistence of changes affecting everyone).
He just posted when the Landmark update is going to happen this Wednesday. He also closed some bugs on Landmark public bug tracker on November 18th.
Also, going by very recent twitters Emily (Domino) is back on EQNext/Landmark team, her going to EQ2 was just for the expansion.
Yes, investment firms are about money. The reason that the EQ:N project is currently in an unknown state of development isn't money. It's about the inability to justify the returns that investment would produce. I've no idea if CN was fully aware of the situation prior to the purchase. Now that they have had time to fully evaluate the portfolio, they appear unconvinced of that project's viability. Whether that evaluation was due to the cost to finish, the ability to finish, a disagreement with the development aims, projections of revenue streams, timelines beyond their own goals, or something entirely different, the result is that CN chose not to invest more money into this particular project than they already had.
Money is the easy part of any business. It's the actual work that's hard.
----------
Let me address your if-the-investment-firm-'invested' statement. We do know that CN bought SOE. That was the news of the investment. That is very likely the last time the public will know anything about the funding of a specific project within a subsidiary company. Generally, the actual sale/merger is all the reporting that the general public will ever see about the transactions between a parent company and its subsidiary. Investments, capitalization, loans, or other means of transferring funds aren't typically publicized. CN's accounting probably isn't attributable to a specific project, even a $200 million loan to Daybreak might not include the term 'EQ:N' on CN's annual report. So, unless someone leaks information from extremely deep in both CN's and Daybreak's internal accounting systems, any post-sale monetary transactions between the two aren't likely to be news-worthy.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Procedurally generated mechanics aren't new, but the way he seemed to be imagining them seems a bit off.
As in Agent Smith coming in and giving a quest at random without any dev input, because sandbox...
Daggerfall had a couple hundred options to pool from if I'm not mistaken and from those, many possibilities could be created, however, someone made all that in some form at some time.
If EQN goes with anything similar, they'll still have a lot of the costs that typical PVE themeparks have, which he seems to believe isn't the case.
Unless I'm wrong, which wouldn't be the first time. They could have some amazing code that turns 10 options into a billion, but Storybricks nor anything else they've shown suggests that.
What separates the games you listed and EQN is the mmo factor and all the variables others create. Sounds fun, but then I can't see it working too smoothly if they try to get crazy with it. Single player games are much easier to plan out.
So of course it comes down to money when Daybreak didn't receive the funding from CN to proceed with EQN as previously announced (2013 along with Landmark). SOE was willing to write off the losses in hopes of the next big MMO; CN apparently wasn't willing to spend the money nor take that risk.
So, no, the money 'wasn't always there' after the switch from SOE to CN. CN's parent company, the Renova Group, is heavily invested in things like energy, oil and other commodities. Those industries have tanked big time in the last few years with similar firms having a huge problem with prior debts acquired during the boom years exceeding current revenue and value; so it would be a mistake to just assume they had the tens of millions required just sitting around waiting for someone to check some boxes.
To your second point, when I was referring to 'invest' and 'divest' in terms of Daybreak, I meant more than simply money. For divestment - I was referring to employees being fired or moved around internally without replacements being hired, existing projects going into maintenance mode or a trickle at most of new content, and projects previously announced as being discussed openly (or at least parts related to Landmark) and now going dark. For lack of investment - not a single new MMO has been announced and on top of that, several existing titles receiving bare minimum support barely above maintenance mode.
And I would continue to argue that had CN invested in EQN to the extent necessary to meet 2013 announcement standards, it would have made news. It also would have made news had they invested in anything new. When they finally do invest in something new we will certainly hear about it. That's what investment firms do by nature; invest in something then let the world know about it.
So we've heard nothing but divestment by Daybreak across the board with EQN going dark. That's a negative trend in terms of overall investment since SOE was acquired and turned into Daybreak. It's certainly not a good sign for EQN (as previously announced in 2013).
The long development cycle is what has driven the nail in this coffin. For example, someone posted earlier in the thread about the development team testing for and modding the engine to work with DX 11. Congratulations. DX11 was released in 2008. DX 12 was released with Windows 10 and most of us are just itching to see what it will do in actual practice. This is my point. EQ "Next" lacks momentum... It won't be EQ "Next" if it ever does get released. I doubt it will. If it does, it will be closer to EQ "Never Caught Back Up" or EQ "Left Behind" It won't be relevant...
Maybe they can do a "Blizzard" and turn their work into a MOBA? We all know what Overwatch started out as right?
Seaspite
Playing ESO on my X-Box
The quest generation system takes inputs from the AI to build quests tailored to the player or some of them at least.
If there isn't enough "quest templates" (devs still need to define what an escort quest is somewhere aka into the knowledge base of the AI) and the granularity isn't there (too many parts of the templates are static or there is not enough options to set) they will feel repetitive...but not anymore repetitive than killing over and over again a group of monster in a cave to gain XP (no quest involved).
That is if they kept the plan for procedurally generated stuff.
While we've seen very basic forms of what Storybircks could be or was (assuming they no longer call it that), still no idea if it will function in a mmo setting.
None of their demos were representative of actual mmo gameplay.
Seems like everyone would have a very unique experience, which is good, but sounds like it wouldn't translate into a social experience and would be another single player game that happens to have other running around that we've have for the last 10+ years.