I still fail to see why we need to limit player freedom. If someone wants to camp an item 24/7 for profit... that only means he will not be camping another item. If we force him to move to another camp all we did was making sure he moves to a differend spot to camp another item.
What is so bad about someone camping the same item 24/7 and if you want that item and never get the spot... you simply camp another item and TRADE.
And this is if we assume someone really does camp whatever 24/7.
Still, not seeing a real issue here.... some items will be camped and valuable sure. But that is part of community and you can always trade for those items, by camping other stuff that is in demand. Forcing people to move on by some trivial loot code, even time based (which sounds better then levelbased) just screws over player freedom. Groups will disband as soon as healer XY got his item because the boss is now without any value to him.
Sure you can argue with "friends don't leave". But we wanted this forced rules BECAUSE we don't think community works, right?
I for one would hate any system that alters loot on whatever factor. I want to play how i feel that day. Sometimes i just want to chill and camp something for an alt or to sell it. Or to give it away to a friend AND my own alt. Most of the time i want a group and push limits... but not all the time. Every system that dictates what i can do and when i can do it AND how often i can do it... simply limits my freedom and that is something every god damn MMO does. Why join a new one that does the same?
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
One potential way to limit farming is to do what they did in the old days in MUDs: if you are killing the same mob over and over again, slowly but surely you get less and less exp., and eventually it doesn't drop the item. Thoughts?
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-------------------------------------------------------------- Brad McQuaid CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc. www.pantheonmmo.com --------------------------------------------------------------
To me the solution should be driven by the problem you are trying to solve. Those problems include:
1. Gold farmers; 2. Griefers; 3. Content monopolizers; 4. Bots; and 5. Economy related issues (the effect on an item's value when someone floods the market with farmed goods).
I'm not sure there is a one size fits all resolution to those problems.
Personally (and not to trivialize the other issues), all I care about is having the ability at level 40 to undertake and complete a level 15 quest that I never got around to doing, without finding that I can't get the quest item to finish it due to TLC.
So whatever is finally done, I hope quests can always be completed, even if they are low level ones. Because believe it or not, some of us like doing the quests even when the reward is trivial.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Player freedom...another term for letting assholes screw over folks....the reality of the situation is allot of players are assholes and will monopolize content for personal gain (at the expense of other players trying to have fun as well) and some even do it to piss off other players. Limiting this is a good thing, do not stop it, just limit it so others have a chance to do the same camps. The players can still farm the loot, just not 24/7, that is the key, do not allow a lockdown of a camp so everyone else is pooched....Just my 2 cents.
One potential way to limit farming is to do what they did in the old days in MUDs: if you are killing the same mob over and over again, slowly but surely you get less and less exp., and eventually it doesn't drop the item. Thoughts?
Ill be perfectly honest here: Whatever you do to limit player freedom will be a step into turning Pantheon from "god i need that game" to "meh, another MMO doomed to fail before it even launches".
Really, really ignore forums on this matter (including me) and ask yourself how big of an "issue" camping items really is. Or if it even is part of what made MMOs fun back in the day (for me, it was a big part of the fun. Was camping some stuff for 12+ hours with alternating teammates and had a BLAST). Then ask yourself and experienced teams (not forum warriors) if whatever you think will actually improve the game or hinder it.
You are tackeling something that is a very, very big impact on the games freedom and funfactor.
I think it was someone from Blizzard that once said: "We try out new things, and some are just plain awesome and work really well. Then we step back and ask a single question: Is it fun?"
Please do the same. Whatever you decide for Pantheon, not only on this topic. Step back and judge the decition from a player AND dev standpoint by asking yourself: "Is it fun?". Don't do anything that does not get a definitive "YES".
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
@ Sinist I like your flag system suggestion. That way if I want to go back and farm something for money I can. I just cant keep doing it. And even if that does make a player just move on to a different camp, at the very least it opens the camp up for others. Its not perfect, but I could live with it.
@Aradune This sounds good too. But how many times would it take, and how long would that effect be in place? Does it also implement diminishing returns (as in lower and lower drop chance after each successive drop) until finally it wont drop? Could this apply somehow to raids? And would that be a good thing? Seen a lot of discussion lately worrying about endgame competition so far as in overcamped sites (Project 1999), and to prevent straight monopolization by mega guilds? I know thats kinda touching into a different topic but wondered if it could work for this as well.
Ill be perfectly honest here: Whatever you do to limit player freedom will be a step into turning Pantheon from "god i need that game" to "meh, another MMO doomed to fail before it even launches".
What a silly argument. Technically not being able to fly at will, solo raid bosses or teleport anywhere limits player freedom also. That doesn't make the game "meh." Making intelligent balance decisions is a crucial part of every game.
The purpose of Pantheon is increased social interaction and group centered content, not the freedom to solo 90% of the game
One potential way to limit farming is to do what they did in the old days in MUDs: if you are killing the same mob over and over again, slowly but surely you get less and less exp., and eventually it doesn't drop the item. Thoughts?
Ill be perfectly honest here: Whatever you do to limit player freedom will be a step into turning Pantheon from "god i need that game" to "meh, another MMO doomed to fail before it even launches".
Really, really ignore forums on this matter (including me) and ask yourself how big of an "issue" camping items really is. Or if it even is part of what made MMOs fun back in the day (for me, it was a big part of the fun. Was camping some stuff for 12+ hours with alternating teammates and had a BLAST). Then ask yourself and experienced teams (not forum warriors) if whatever you think will actually improve the game or hinder it.
You are tackeling something that is a very, very big impact on the games freedom and funfactor.
I think it was someone from Blizzard that once said: "We try out new things, and some are just plain awesome and work really well. Then we step back and ask a single question: Is it fun?"
Please do the same. Whatever you decide for Pantheon, not only on this topic. Step back and judge the decition from a player AND dev standpoint by asking yourself: "Is it fun?". Don't do anything that does not get a definitive "YES".
Camping isn't the problem here. I don't think anyone is trying to suggest camping be discouraged, that people should be penalized for it. Rather the desire is to avoid the extreme abuses that happen from such. You camping a rare drop for 12+ hours isn't an issue at all, in fact if they are designing loot drops correctly, some things may take much longer than that to get them. Again, camping isn't the issue here.
The issue is of the extreme cases of abuse where a player camps a drop for profit turning the dungeon into a gold selling scam or a auction house gimmick to lock down an item or farm them indefinitely. There is no reasonable argument to be made for camping something to stock pile them in such a manner and it is the most common problem in games these days where gold farmers lock down areas to farm items for AH sale.
So a solution that allows you to camp to obtain the items from a mob, but offers no benefit for you to farm it into absurdity is a fair and honest one that supports game play, allowing people to have freedom in play, but disallowing the extreme cases where it can be abused. You still can trade all items, you can still sell them on the AH, you just can't sit 24/7 farming stacks of a rare and locking a spawn down.
As for fun, I am sick of that subjective word. Fun is a meaningless word. What you find fun, I may not find fun. You can not design a game around FUN. You design a game around a basic concept of play, theme or focus and let people decide if they enjoy that or not.
One potential way to limit farming is to do what they did in the old days in MUDs: if you are killing the same mob over and over again, slowly but surely you get less and less exp., and eventually it doesn't drop the item. Thoughts?
I think I would be ok with the item not dropping anymore, but less and less exp I am totally against. Certain games have utilized the camp exp tactic, where if you kill the same mobs in the same area for long enough, you begin to get an exp penalty, I am totally against this.
If there was a flag when you looted an item that disallowed you from looting more than a certain amount of them within a certain period of time, I think that may sort of work. Definitely needs to be thought through thoroughly though because if there is one thing about systems, they tend to have effects on things that may not be so apparent.
One potential way to limit farming is to do what they did in the old days in MUDs: if you are killing the same mob over and over again, slowly but surely you get less and less exp., and eventually it doesn't drop the item. Thoughts?
I'm in favor of this.
Just make sure the dropped item is not required for crafting or some important quest that you can't get anywhere else. Because you may return one day for said quest and you won't be able to get the item. Or, I assume it's very possible to flag a creature so that it will only drop that one item if you need it and not the rest of the loot which it normally has, that is, if you don't get xp for it anymore then it doesn't hold the regular loot table.
This made me think of something else. Necromancers need bonechips and low level skeletons are harvested for it. Well, atleast I used to do that. Also, low levels made a business out of it while levelling up. Even if they're not a Necromancer they still need to find bonechips to sell to lazy Necromancers. So, if low levels cannot find bonechips once they've passed the "no xp/no loot", that could be a problem. Well, that is IF Necromancers will be in at release (not confirmed) and if Necromancers will need bonechips in this MMO. Who knows! LOL!
That sort of anti-farm mechanic would have to be pretty advanced for players to not just circumvent it by having other players loot the corpse. I can think of 50 ways around that mechanic, and they are all members of the guild I play games with.
If I want to farm a rare item for my low level atl then i should damn well be able to do that. Sounds like the op needs to stick with today's mmo that enforce those dumb restrictions.
IMHO it's really not quite that simple.
1. High level players in lower level areas can be disruptive; indeed, if they want, they can camp and control an area, keeping the players meant for that content away.
2. Why didn't you get the item when you were around the right level?
3. Why don't you trade or buy it if you missed getting it?
4. Why don't you roll an alt and get the item with that character?
5. Are you really entitled to go acquire any item any time you choose?
Having been not only on the dev side of MMOs, but also the customer service/facing side of launched MMOs, I can assure you that bottom feeding is problematic. One or a few higher levels can ruin the play experience of many lower level players. When that happens, the temptation is to remove the few who are ruining it for the many.
I used to be a fan of straight up TLC code... if you were too high level, the item wouldn't drop. Simple and effective solution, but also draconian and unpopular with many.
I do want Pantheon to be a game where even if you are higher level, you can't just waltz into a lower level zone -- 12 level 10s *are* going to kill a level 30.
Then there is reputation -- if you get known as a bottom feeder and for being disruptive, your reputation should be affected negatively within the player community.
One poster mentioned showing the character's name *and* and account, so if a jerk re-rolls, you still know it's that same guy. But the problem there is that many new to MMOs do act like asses with their first character, but then learn how important community and cooperation is, so they re-roll and become a great player. Showing their account name or something would take away that important 'second chance'.
So this is a great thread and we're talking about a real problem, especially for a game like Pantheon in which most items will be tradable. Like I said, I'm no longer a fan of hard TLC rules, but then I've not seen an alternative approach to dealing with this issue that truly covers all or even most of the bases. The best is that lower level NPCs, if there are enough of them, should still kill a higher level player. As noted, that stops higher levels from just walking around lower level zones with impunity. But it wouldn't stop them from fighting more carefully to an area and then holding that area.
It's tempting to just say 'well, this isn't an area that needs to be addressed with game mechanics, it's a customer service issue'. But customer service is really expensive and the ratio of GMs to players is never enough. Nor do I think it can necessarily be solved completely by the players, by the community.
Anyway, this is still an open issue and we've not made an official decision as to how all we're going to handle it. I appreciate the discussion. Please do think of the situation by putting yourself in the other guy's shoes. Sure, in a single player game, go back and one-man a whole dungeon when you're high enough level.... but Pantheon isn't a single player game, it's a highly social cooperative MMO. That means what you do affects others.
This may be way off and not doable .. BUT .. Would it be possible for there to be a system in place within a "zone" that would work like this:
Suppose there is a level 15-25 dungeon and there is a level 50 player camping a boss. There are also level 25's there that want to kill that boss. I would assume the lower level group could ask the 50 if they could have the camp.
If he/she refuses, The level 25 group could request that the 50 leave with a more formal, in-game button that would pop up a message to the 50 asking him/her to let the lower group take the camp. (It would work similar to a ready check).
If the 50 does not agree, then the 25's could vote to place a temporary TLC on that higher level for that particular boss for a certain amount of time ... say 1 hour.
There would need to be a minimum amount of votes needed to do this and all voters would need to be within the dungeon's level range. And the ones voting should be within a certain range of the target boss that it would apply to.
Also, this would not be usable on players within the dungeon's level range.
OR..
It could be more automated... Have TLC automatically enforced if there are a certain amount of appropriate level players are within a certain range of the boss .. assuming this is for a dungeon and not some mob that's soloable by the appropriate level player.
That sort of anti-farm mechanic would have to be pretty advanced for players to not just circumvent it by having other players loot the corpse. I can think of 50 ways around that mechanic, and they are all members of the guild I play games with.
Which one? The one Brad mentioned or the one I mentioned? I would be interested to hear what kind of faults it may have, or how to get around it. The token flagging system stamps the timer to everyone who gets the item until that timer ticks down to zero.
Now if you are saying a guild of 50 people can all take turns camping the item to farm multiples, well.. that would be a way around it, but at that point, if they have to switch out a new person to camp an item every time it drops and have to wait on the timer for that person (7 days), well... that is an extraordinary amount of effort for a guild to commit to for a group mob (my suggestion wasn't for raid mobs) for a drop. I am not sure there is a point to try and stop such coordination and if such is consistently happening in the game, the game has a more significant issue to deal with.
My suggestion was to avoid a single person or a small number of people locking down a given camp spot in a dungeon, not a mechanic to stop large coordinated attempts by large number of people. The example you gave isn't likely to be that common and as I said, if it is, you have bigger problems in the game.
here's an option I just thought of while reading this.
Make items that drop from mobs account bound unless within +/- 10 or XX level TBD.
personally I like farming for my own alts, or even can make them Guild Bound. Would be a unique option
Thats just exchanging one unrealistic hardcoded restriction with another.
At least with the mob that detects a player that has killed him recently and spawns less often, its somewhat realistic.
Only thing I don't like about the spawning less often if he was killed recently is now you are penalizing a player who may be legitimately trying to obtain something. I hate these draconian measures as well, I would prefer a solution that allows a player to never notice the anti-code until they become excessive. A player should be able to camp every item a mob has without having the code restrict that goal. Now once a player has obtained all the items that a given mob can drop, then the code should kick in. You don't want to keep people from normal reasonable play, only keep them from excessive behaviors that are an issue (monopolizing content for AH sale).
As I have said, the player trade market here is usually the culprit of this behavior. Maybe a solution is better spent on that side of the fence, rather than the adventure side?
One issue I noticed while playing P99, was that since the TLC wasn't in effect, farming of items was monopolized by raid guilded high levels. Wanted to try for that fungi tunic? Not going to happen. So, you just farm other items and sell them to make the money? Nope, can't do that either because the people that actually have the platinum to afford any of the stuff you looted, don't need it because they are the high levels lol.
It's a circular issue that continues to be a problem.
This may be way off and not doable .. BUT .. Would it be possible for there to be a system in place within a "zone" that would work like this:
Suppose there is a level 15-25 dungeon and there is a level 50 player camping a boss. There are also level 25's there that want to kill that boss. I would assume the lower level group could ask the 50 if they could have the camp.
If he/she refuses, The level 25 group could request that the 50 leave with a more formal, in-game button that would pop up a message to the 50 asking him/her to let the lower group take the camp. (It would work similar to a ready check).
If the 50 does not agree, then the 25's could vote to place a temporary TLC on that higher level for that particular boss for a certain amount of time ... say 1 hour.
There would need to be a minimum amount of votes needed to do this and all voters would need to be within the dungeon's level range. And the ones voting should be within a certain range of the target boss that it would apply to.
Also, this would not be usable on players within the dungeon's level range.
OR..
It could be more automated... Have TLC automatically enforced if there are a certain amount of appropriate level players are within a certain range of the boss .. assuming this is for a dungeon and not some mob that's soloable by the appropriate level player.
Not a good idea to put the power of such in the players hands. It will be abused and often.
Besides, a level 50 player camping a single boss in a dungeon isn't some major offense. Them camping an item isn't the problem, it is them monopolizing a camp where they continue to stay at the camp indefinitely past that of needing an item (ie using the camp as a cash generator for AH sales or RMT site). If a level 50 player is camping the spot to get an item, they will eventually get it and move on (I have seen this a lot in contested content games).
We have to be careful to not put in social justice measures (ie measures that attempt to force good behavior), rather the goal should be to avoid allowing people to abuse a given situation through extreme negative behavior. A lower level group not getting a good camp because a higher level is camping it for an alt and refuses to relinquish it to that group is not some nefarious act. Sure, it would be polite for them to do so, but they aren't abusing anything in their play and will move on once they came for what it is they sought.
What you want to avoid with the high level players is them camping an entire dungeon easily, and keeping a group who is of appropriate content level from accessing that content in the process. Even then though, keep in mind that a single player can not be in every place at the same time, so... that group could easily move into the camp when the player rushes off to another camp area. So it isn't like that group doesn't have options already.
One issue I noticed while playing P99, was that since the TLC wasn't in effect, farming of items was monopolized by raid guilded high levels. Wanted to try for that fungi tunic? Not going to happen. So, you just farm other items and sell them to make the money? Nope, can't do that either because the people that actually have the platinum to afford any of the stuff you looted, don't need it because they are the high levels lol.
It's a circular issue that continues to be a problem.
The problem with using P99 as a model for anything is that the server sat in Kunark expansion for like 5 years, the amount of problems caused by that were insurmountable for any code to deal with save the next expansion.
Fungi tunic being the most valuable item in that expansion, and being a high tier item, it would no doubt be highly contested. None of what we're talking about is even aimed at preventing camping of such an item, as that is kind of the point of the game.
TLC is for low level content, and would never work in original EQ because some very critical end-game items were dropped from lower level mobs. I also think this is one of the biggest reasons you absolutely cannot have it in Pantheon, because that was something I loved about EQ, that I could solo farm some pretty critical items outside of raid times and exp times that were super rare and took time. Jboots, Goblin skull earring, Fishbone earring, earring of essence, circlet of shadows... the list goes on.. if you had TLC those items would all have to be rethought.
That sort of anti-farm mechanic would have to be pretty advanced for players to not just circumvent it by having other players loot the corpse. I can think of 50 ways around that mechanic, and they are all members of the guild I play games with.
Yes, in a simple form (and I did describe it simplistically), it would indeed be easy to circumvent.
My question to you and the others:
1. What about the idea in general?
2. If you like the idea, could you think of a system that isn't so easily circumvented?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------- Brad McQuaid CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc. www.pantheonmmo.com --------------------------------------------------------------
One issue I noticed while playing P99, was that since the TLC wasn't in effect, farming of items was monopolized by raid guilded high levels. Wanted to try for that fungi tunic? Not going to happen. So, you just farm other items and sell them to make the money? Nope, can't do that either because the people that actually have the platinum to afford any of the stuff you looted, don't need it because they are the high levels lol.
It's a circular issue that continues to be a problem.
The problem with using P99 as a model for anything is that the server sat in Kunark expansion for like 5 years, the amount of problems caused by that were insurmountable for any code to deal with save the next expansion.
Fungi tunic being the most valuable item in that expansion, and being a high tier item, it would no doubt be highly contested. None of what we're talking about is even aimed at preventing camping of such an item, as that is kind of the point of the game.
TLC is for low level content, and would never work in original EQ because some very critical end-game items were dropped from lower level mobs. I also think this is one of the biggest reasons you absolutely cannot have it in Pantheon, because that was something I loved about EQ, that I could solo farm some pretty critical items outside of raid times and exp times that were super rare and took time. Jboots, Goblin skull earring, Fishbone earring, earring of essence, circlet of shadows... the list goes on.. if you had TLC those items would all have to be rethought.
This is true -- in P99 you have a different situation... but reading this did make me think of one of the reasons I had been more TLC in the past -- I've always wanted it to be possible (the exception though, not the rule) to put truly good items in low and mid level zones. But it's always been problematic, because the higher levels just farm it.
Now you might ask, why Brad would you possibly want to put a great item in a lower level zone? That makes no sense. And you may be right, but here's my thinking anyway:
In Pantheon there will be situational gear. Part of situational gear are special items that help you in very specific areas but otherwise aren't that great. They are a 'soft key', and by that I mean they in a sense 'unlock' regions or areas. They're 'soft' because you don't absolutely have to have the item to enter the region, but they *do* make it a lot easier. Here's a simple example: Fishbone Earring. Yes, there are spells that give you underwater breathing, but having an earring you can just put on that allows you to explore underwater without having to worry about your underwater breathing (Enduring Breath) buff running out is pretty handy. So in a sense, a Fishbone Earring is a 'soft key'.
It would be cool to place some soft key items in, say, mid-level dungeons and have them difficult to acquire for players who are in the appropriate level range. But, without TLC, higher level players could just camp this item 1. at no real risk to themselves and 2. displacing the lower level players who are trying to get that item.
The easy answer is, well, don't do that. Don't put truly valuable items in anything but the highest level zones. But isn't that ideology one of the culprits behind 'the game doesn't truly begin until higher levels', which just leads people to power level to the 'end game' because that's when the 'real game' begins?
I *really* want to avoid that perception in Pantheon. I want to see fantastic, interesting, and challenging dungeons at all levels. And I want us to be able to put drops in those zones that make it worth the risk of going there. I really have this desire to do almost anything we can to avoid the 'rush to the end-game, because that's where the fun begins' scenario.
In fact, if that perception is unavoidable (and I don't think it is, but let's say it was): I wouldn't waste our artists and world builder's time creating all sorts of cool low and mid level zones. I've been on MMO projects where we built some amazing low and mid level areas, but it ended up that nobody would even go there because it wasn't worth the risk because there was no appropriate reward. If it's truly unavoidable, I'd just create generic outdoor areas for 1-40 and put all of our real world building efforts into the 'end game' 40-50 dungeons and other interesting locales.
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-------------------------------------------------------------- Brad McQuaid CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc. www.pantheonmmo.com --------------------------------------------------------------
The amount money I could make in EQ from a zone close to my level was always more than I could ever make farming newbee zones.
Spider Silk, Bone Chips, Hides, Velium...it was never worth it for me to run over to a low level zone and farm those items. You could always make more farming a higher level zone and use that money to buy those TS and reagent items from newbees.
Some people farmed the Fishbone earring to have EB for Powater etc. But if you put TLC on items that are essential for some zones, and the newbee population drops, you can no longer attain them, which isn't good either.
Also, EQ often required you to raise faction. I remember that I needed Dranik's Loyalist faction on my alt to equip OOW armor. And me and some friends killed for hours in Dranik's Scar. If somehow those trivial mobs stopped dropping gems for us, it would have been a rather terrible experience. The fact gems dropped and someone went to sell them and divided them, was how we kept occupied and talking to each other, the fact items did drop was a reason to be social.
Comments
What is so bad about someone camping the same item 24/7 and if you want that item and never get the spot... you simply camp another item and TRADE.
And this is if we assume someone really does camp whatever 24/7.
Still, not seeing a real issue here.... some items will be camped and valuable sure. But that is part of community and you can always trade for those items, by camping other stuff that is in demand. Forcing people to move on by some trivial loot code, even time based (which sounds better then levelbased) just screws over player freedom. Groups will disband as soon as healer XY got his item because the boss is now without any value to him.
Sure you can argue with "friends don't leave". But we wanted this forced rules BECAUSE we don't think community works, right?
I for one would hate any system that alters loot on whatever factor. I want to play how i feel that day. Sometimes i just want to chill and camp something for an alt or to sell it. Or to give it away to a friend AND my own alt. Most of the time i want a group and push limits... but not all the time. Every system that dictates what i can do and when i can do it AND how often i can do it... simply limits my freedom and that is something every god damn MMO does. Why join a new one that does the same?
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
--------------------------------------------------------------
1. Gold farmers;
2. Griefers;
3. Content monopolizers;
4. Bots; and
5. Economy related issues (the effect on an item's value when someone floods the market with farmed goods).
I'm not sure there is a one size fits all resolution to those problems.
Personally (and not to trivialize the other issues), all I care about is having the ability at level 40 to undertake and complete a level 15 quest that I never got around to doing, without finding that I can't get the quest item to finish it due to TLC.
So whatever is finally done, I hope quests can always be completed, even if they are low level ones. Because believe it or not, some of us like doing the quests even when the reward is trivial.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Really, really ignore forums on this matter (including me) and ask yourself how big of an "issue" camping items really is. Or if it even is part of what made MMOs fun back in the day (for me, it was a big part of the fun. Was camping some stuff for 12+ hours with alternating teammates and had a BLAST).
Then ask yourself and experienced teams (not forum warriors) if whatever you think will actually improve the game or hinder it.
You are tackeling something that is a very, very big impact on the games freedom and funfactor.
I think it was someone from Blizzard that once said: "We try out new things, and some are just plain awesome and work really well. Then we step back and ask a single question: Is it fun?"
Please do the same. Whatever you decide for Pantheon, not only on this topic. Step back and judge the decition from a player AND dev standpoint by asking yourself: "Is it fun?". Don't do anything that does not get a definitive "YES".
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
@Aradune This sounds good too. But how many times would it take, and how long would that effect be in place? Does it also implement diminishing returns (as in lower and lower drop chance after each successive drop) until finally it wont drop? Could this apply somehow to raids? And would that be a good thing? Seen a lot of discussion lately worrying about endgame competition so far as in overcamped sites (Project 1999), and to prevent straight monopolization by mega guilds? I know thats kinda touching into a different topic but wondered if it could work for this as well.
The purpose of Pantheon is increased social interaction and group centered content, not the freedom to solo 90% of the game
The issue is of the extreme cases of abuse where a player camps a drop for profit turning the dungeon into a gold selling scam or a auction house gimmick to lock down an item or farm them indefinitely. There is no reasonable argument to be made for camping something to stock pile them in such a manner and it is the most common problem in games these days where gold farmers lock down areas to farm items for AH sale.
So a solution that allows you to camp to obtain the items from a mob, but offers no benefit for you to farm it into absurdity is a fair and honest one that supports game play, allowing people to have freedom in play, but disallowing the extreme cases where it can be abused. You still can trade all items, you can still sell them on the AH, you just can't sit 24/7 farming stacks of a rare and locking a spawn down.
As for fun, I am sick of that subjective word. Fun is a meaningless word. What you find fun, I may not find fun. You can not design a game around FUN. You design a game around a basic concept of play, theme or focus and let people decide if they enjoy that or not.
If there was a flag when you looted an item that disallowed you from looting more than a certain amount of them within a certain period of time, I think that may sort of work. Definitely needs to be thought through thoroughly though because if there is one thing about systems, they tend to have effects on things that may not be so apparent.
Just make sure the dropped item is not required for crafting or some important quest that you can't get anywhere else. Because you may return one day for said quest and you won't be able to get the item. Or, I assume it's very possible to flag a creature so that it will only drop that one item if you need it and not the rest of the loot which it normally has, that is, if you don't get xp for it anymore then it doesn't hold the regular loot table.
This made me think of something else. Necromancers need bonechips and low level skeletons are harvested for it. Well, atleast I used to do that. Also, low levels made a business out of it while levelling up. Even if they're not a Necromancer they still need to find bonechips to sell to lazy Necromancers. So, if low levels cannot find bonechips once they've passed the "no xp/no loot", that could be a problem.
Well, that is IF Necromancers will be in at release (not confirmed) and if Necromancers will need bonechips in this MMO. Who knows! LOL!
Make items that drop from mobs account bound unless within +/- 10 or XX level TBD.
personally I like farming for my own alts, or even can make them Guild Bound. Would be a unique option
This may be way off and not doable .. BUT .. Would it be possible for there to be a system in place within a "zone" that would work like this:
Suppose there is a level 15-25 dungeon and there is a level 50 player camping a boss. There are also level 25's there that want to kill that boss. I would assume the lower level group could ask the 50 if they could have the camp.
If he/she refuses, The level 25 group could request that the 50 leave with a more formal, in-game button that would pop up a message to the 50 asking him/her to let the lower group take the camp. (It would work similar to a ready check).
If the 50 does not agree, then the 25's could vote to place a temporary TLC on that higher level for that particular boss for a certain amount of time ... say 1 hour.
There would need to be a minimum amount of votes needed to do this and all voters would need to be within the dungeon's level range. And the ones voting should be within a certain range of the target boss that it would apply to.
Also, this would not be usable on players within the dungeon's level range.
OR..
It could be more automated... Have TLC automatically enforced if there are a certain amount of appropriate level players are within a certain range of the boss .. assuming this is for a dungeon and not some mob that's soloable by the appropriate level player.
At least with the mob that detects a player that has killed him recently and spawns less often, its somewhat realistic.
Which one? The one Brad mentioned or the one I mentioned? I would be interested to hear what kind of faults it may have, or how to get around it. The token flagging system stamps the timer to everyone who gets the item until that timer ticks down to zero.
Now if you are saying a guild of 50 people can all take turns camping the item to farm multiples, well.. that would be a way around it, but at that point, if they have to switch out a new person to camp an item every time it drops and have to wait on the timer for that person (7 days), well... that is an extraordinary amount of effort for a guild to commit to for a group mob (my suggestion wasn't for raid mobs) for a drop. I am not sure there is a point to try and stop such coordination and if such is consistently happening in the game, the game has a more significant issue to deal with.
My suggestion was to avoid a single person or a small number of people locking down a given camp spot in a dungeon, not a mechanic to stop large coordinated attempts by large number of people. The example you gave isn't likely to be that common and as I said, if it is, you have bigger problems in the game.
As I have said, the player trade market here is usually the culprit of this behavior. Maybe a solution is better spent on that side of the fence, rather than the adventure side?
One issue I noticed while playing P99, was that since the TLC wasn't in effect, farming of items was monopolized by raid guilded high levels. Wanted to try for that fungi tunic? Not going to happen. So, you just farm other items and sell them to make the money? Nope, can't do that either because the people that actually have the platinum to afford any of the stuff you looted, don't need it because they are the high levels lol.
It's a circular issue that continues to be a problem.
Besides, a level 50 player camping a single boss in a dungeon isn't some major offense. Them camping an item isn't the problem, it is them monopolizing a camp where they continue to stay at the camp indefinitely past that of needing an item (ie using the camp as a cash generator for AH sales or RMT site). If a level 50 player is camping the spot to get an item, they will eventually get it and move on (I have seen this a lot in contested content games).
We have to be careful to not put in social justice measures (ie measures that attempt to force good behavior), rather the goal should be to avoid allowing people to abuse a given situation through extreme negative behavior. A lower level group not getting a good camp because a higher level is camping it for an alt and refuses to relinquish it to that group is not some nefarious act. Sure, it would be polite for them to do so, but they aren't abusing anything in their play and will move on once they came for what it is they sought.
What you want to avoid with the high level players is them camping an entire dungeon easily, and keeping a group who is of appropriate content level from accessing that content in the process. Even then though, keep in mind that a single player can not be in every place at the same time, so... that group could easily move into the camp when the player rushes off to another camp area. So it isn't like that group doesn't have options already.
Fungi tunic being the most valuable item in that expansion, and being a high tier item, it would no doubt be highly contested. None of what we're talking about is even aimed at preventing camping of such an item, as that is kind of the point of the game.
TLC is for low level content, and would never work in original EQ because some very critical end-game items were dropped from lower level mobs. I also think this is one of the biggest reasons you absolutely cannot have it in Pantheon, because that was something I loved about EQ, that I could solo farm some pretty critical items outside of raid times and exp times that were super rare and took time. Jboots, Goblin skull earring, Fishbone earring, earring of essence, circlet of shadows... the list goes on.. if you had TLC those items would all have to be rethought.
My question to you and the others:
1. What about the idea in general?
2. If you like the idea, could you think of a system that isn't so easily circumvented?
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Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
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This is true -- in P99 you have a different situation... but reading this did make me think of one of the reasons I had been more TLC in the past -- I've always wanted it to be possible (the exception though, not the rule) to put truly good items in low and mid level zones. But it's always been problematic, because the higher levels just farm it.
Now you might ask, why Brad would you possibly want to put a great item in a lower level zone? That makes no sense. And you may be right, but here's my thinking anyway:
In Pantheon there will be situational gear. Part of situational gear are special items that help you in very specific areas but otherwise aren't that great. They are a 'soft key', and by that I mean they in a sense 'unlock' regions or areas. They're 'soft' because you don't absolutely have to have the item to enter the region, but they *do* make it a lot easier. Here's a simple example: Fishbone Earring. Yes, there are spells that give you underwater breathing, but having an earring you can just put on that allows you to explore underwater without having to worry about your underwater breathing (Enduring Breath) buff running out is pretty handy. So in a sense, a Fishbone Earring is a 'soft key'.
It would be cool to place some soft key items in, say, mid-level dungeons and have them difficult to acquire for players who are in the appropriate level range. But, without TLC, higher level players could just camp this item 1. at no real risk to themselves and 2. displacing the lower level players who are trying to get that item.
The easy answer is, well, don't do that. Don't put truly valuable items in anything but the highest level zones. But isn't that ideology one of the culprits behind 'the game doesn't truly begin until higher levels', which just leads people to power level to the 'end game' because that's when the 'real game' begins?
I *really* want to avoid that perception in Pantheon. I want to see fantastic, interesting, and challenging dungeons at all levels. And I want us to be able to put drops in those zones that make it worth the risk of going there. I really have this desire to do almost anything we can to avoid the 'rush to the end-game, because that's where the fun begins' scenario.
In fact, if that perception is unavoidable (and I don't think it is, but let's say it was): I wouldn't waste our artists and world builder's time creating all sorts of cool low and mid level zones. I've been on MMO projects where we built some amazing low and mid level areas, but it ended up that nobody would even go there because it wasn't worth the risk because there was no appropriate reward. If it's truly unavoidable, I'd just create generic outdoor areas for 1-40 and put all of our real world building efforts into the 'end game' 40-50 dungeons and other interesting locales.
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Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
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Spider Silk, Bone Chips, Hides, Velium...it was never worth it for me to run over to a low level zone and farm those items. You could always make more farming a higher level zone and use that money to buy those TS and reagent items from newbees.
Some people farmed the Fishbone earring to have EB for Powater etc. But if you put TLC on items that are essential for some zones, and the newbee population drops, you can no longer attain them, which isn't good either.