I really have trouble understanding what your problem is.
Its a multiplayer game.
So ... obviously it has to be balanced.
Any multiplayer game has to be balanced... duh ?
Heck, even singleplayer games have to be balanced. TES Oblivion for example failed to do so. As a result, the player could end up being seriously underpowered. Oblivion practically forced you to powergame.
Not to mention that the TES combat system never has been much fun anyway, except for its bugs.
Stating your claim over and over again does not validate your position.
I asked you many questions, I asked you to explain your case.
Why does class vs class have to be balanced if you balance class vs content? You gave me one above reason, I explained how class vs content solves that issue.
Why does there have to be class vs class balance when you can balance class vs content?
To create an illusion of fairness, which is not needed in a PVE game. I have to agree..The idea of class on class balance has never really been something I agree with in an MMORPG (even in PVP). It defeats the purpose of having roles at all, which roles should serve utility purposes IMO. WHen the focus shifts to class balance utility isn't needed. It's a trade off yet to what end? Why should an MMO design cater to class on class (1V1) balance? It makes little sense.
That very reason in my opinion is what is one of the biggest offenders in MMOs. The idea that everyone should be equal within such focus is an emotional serving, not a gaming one. I understand peoples concerns about being useful in the content and being able to bring something useful to the group, but you can achieve that far easier with class to content balance than you can by class vs class. The latter only ends up with homogenization through a very long road of just pissing people off over and over.
It also plays a big part in how folks interact, in a "balanced" environment folks are less likely to need one another. WHen classes benefit from one another you have far more reasons to group up. Instead of DPS as an example Rogue types could serve a different purpose.. trap disarming, lock picking, pick pocketing (typical D&D utility). Mages could open hidden doors, lift spells blocking paths etc... So on and so forth. This would make the PVE experience a lot more interesting in these games IMO...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think you need to completely redesign MMO combat to not focus around swapping hit points, healing hit points, etc. and be more about blocking and dodging and strategy and outmaneuvering opponents, etc.
Healers should mend the sick/injured out of combat - in combat healing is a ludicrous idea.
Aggro and threat are ludicrous ideas. Tanking should be anyone brave enough to stand toe to toe with the enemy and protect their friends.
DPS is a ludicrous idea. DPS only exists because we are conditioned to believe that swapping hit points and watching health bars tick down is good, fun game play.
The entire dynamic of combat in MMOs needs to change, completely.
Then, and only then, can you have meaningful differentiation in classes and their roles in the world, as Distopia says, the non-combat things they do should be the most important.
The style in which they fight should be important.
But fighting should only be part of what makes exploring and dungeon crawling and treasure hunting etc. fun and interesting.
I think you need to completely redesign MMO combat to not focus around swapping hit points, healing hit points, etc. and be more about blocking and dodging and strategy and outmaneuvering opponents, etc.
Healers should mend the sick/injured out of combat - in combat healing is a ludicrous idea.
Aggro and threat are ludicrous ideas. Tanking should be anyone brave enough to stand toe to toe with the enemy and protect their friends.
DPS is a ludicrous idea. DPS only exists because we are conditioned to believe that swapping hit points and watching health bars tick down is good, fun game play.
The entire dynamic of combat in MMOs needs to change, completely.
Then, and only then, can you have meaningful differentiation in classes and their roles in the world, as Distopia says, the non-combat things they do should be the most important.
The style in which they fight should be important.
But fighting should only be part of what makes exploring and dungeon crawling and treasure hunting etc. fun and interesting.
I am not a big fan of "action" based mechanics. I in all honesty prefer the other side of the style of play of the "statistic" game of pitting your characters development to that of a given encounter and through clever use of skills at a given time and in a certain manner, are able to defeat the encounter.
The whole "dodge, jump, run... " action arcade play I can respect for those who like those types of games (and when in the mood I can enjoy them as well from time to time), but I like my MMOs to be more AD&D like than Nintendo if you understand my point.
As for the HP issue and DPS, damage is a given, I too agree DPS as a focus is just a silly class design, but I still think the concept of doing damage, healing, etc... is fine providing it isn't abused like it is in games today where every solution is "DPS really fast!".
A good design will use more of the features Distopia was talking about, lots of utility in play of each class and encounter. Fights should be very long and force the need to apply various utilities in a fight rather than relying on simple DPS based solutions.
That doesn't mean more damage and things like such are bad, but DPS should never be a means that can circumvent the need for classes to use their utilities. So, naturally ALL classes should have elements of utility that make them unique in combat and useful to various situations and circumstances.
The funny thing is though, this wouldn't be a "redesign", rather such a concept of play is going back to the roots of what cRPG/Pen and Paper was all about, something today's games have really no clue about as it concerns the gaming systems.
Yeah for some reason I don't think when people are playing D&D they have to roll out like 300 attack phases to slowly whittle down a monsters health.
It's like, you hit or you crit and the thing either dies or is injured - or you miss.
Much more realistic.
Hard to do in a game though, combat would be too fast to think/react.
Yes, very hard to do in such a format, though I think the one thing people have tendency to complain about such as HP bloat, and really long combat encounters is the key to the situation. You see, if combat takes a long time, then the "quick burn" of DPS is no longer an option as it can't save a party from all the other elements of play that they may have to manage.
This is where Distopia's mention comes in, if the fights take a while, then you have all the time to create elements where the players are forced to use their various utilities to conquer a given encounter. The whole "Quick, DPS it down so we don't have to deal with xyz!" becomes an invalid approach and then players have to use the full realm of their classes abilities to survive an encounter, dungeon, or given circumstance. It becomes about "game play", not simply smashing buttons as fast as one can.
Yeah for some reason I don't think when people are playing D&D they have to roll out like 300 attack phases to slowly whittle down a monsters health.
It's like, you hit or you crit and the thing either dies or is injured - or you miss.
Much more realistic.
Hard to do in a game though, combat would be too fast to think/react.
Yes, very hard to do in such a format, though I think the one thing people have tendency to complain about such as HP bloat, and really long combat encounters is the key to the situation. You see, if combat takes a long time, then the "quick burn" of DPS is no longer an option as it can't save a party from all the other elements of play that they may have to manage.
This is where Distopia's mention comes in, if the fights take a while, then you have all the time to create elements where the players are forced to use their various utilities to conquer a given encounter. The whole "Quick, DPS it down so we don't have to deal with xyz!" becomes an invalid approach and then players have to use the full realm of their classes abilities to survive an encounter, dungeon, or given circumstance. It becomes about "game play", not simply smashing buttons as fast as one can.
A good example of this philosophy is the death watch bunker in SWG, OR taking down a base in SWG. Roles truly came into play. To take down a base you needed typical fighters as well as more specialized professions like smuggler, BH and commando, Smuggler as an example was a build that essentially gimped a character in combat, yet had utility purposes like slicing (terminals in PVE and base busting as well as improving other folks weapons).
The death watch bunker required fighters to lead a non combatant profession (crafters) into a hard to reach area of the dungeon to craft armor sets.
These kinds of things could really be expanded on in 2016...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Another really problematic
class was Bard. IMHO they should have given Bards better solo ability
(heavy armor, shield useage, more spells and more mana to use them,
better damage with ranged weapons) and nerfed their insane group buffing
abilities.
As well, bards seemed to top parses more often than not. At least, this one did.
And that is opposite to what I wrote in my posting ... why ?
I wasnt disagreeing with you. I was just saying that bards super group buffage plus their own personal high dps made them an OP class. I will contradict you on your choice of nerfage. I think bards should keep their group buffage and utility, but lose some dps. They shouldnt be weak dps like EQ but they shouldnt be top parser either.
Comments
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Healers should mend the sick/injured out of combat - in combat healing is a ludicrous idea.
Aggro and threat are ludicrous ideas. Tanking should be anyone brave enough to stand toe to toe with the enemy and protect their friends.
DPS is a ludicrous idea. DPS only exists because we are conditioned to believe that swapping hit points and watching health bars tick down is good, fun game play.
The entire dynamic of combat in MMOs needs to change, completely.
Then, and only then, can you have meaningful differentiation in classes and their roles in the world, as Distopia says, the non-combat things they do should be the most important.
The style in which they fight should be important.
But fighting should only be part of what makes exploring and dungeon crawling and treasure hunting etc. fun and interesting.
The whole "dodge, jump, run... " action arcade play I can respect for those who like those types of games (and when in the mood I can enjoy them as well from time to time), but I like my MMOs to be more AD&D like than Nintendo if you understand my point.
As for the HP issue and DPS, damage is a given, I too agree DPS as a focus is just a silly class design, but I still think the concept of doing damage, healing, etc... is fine providing it isn't abused like it is in games today where every solution is "DPS really fast!".
A good design will use more of the features Distopia was talking about, lots of utility in play of each class and encounter. Fights should be very long and force the need to apply various utilities in a fight rather than relying on simple DPS based solutions.
That doesn't mean more damage and things like such are bad, but DPS should never be a means that can circumvent the need for classes to use their utilities. So, naturally ALL classes should have elements of utility that make them unique in combat and useful to various situations and circumstances.
The funny thing is though, this wouldn't be a "redesign", rather such a concept of play is going back to the roots of what cRPG/Pen and Paper was all about, something today's games have really no clue about as it concerns the gaming systems.
Yeah for some reason I don't think when people are playing D&D they have to roll out like 300 attack phases to slowly whittle down a monsters health.
It's like, you hit or you crit and the thing either dies or is injured - or you miss.
Much more realistic.
Hard to do in a game though, combat would be too fast to think/react.
This is where Distopia's mention comes in, if the fights take a while, then you have all the time to create elements where the players are forced to use their various utilities to conquer a given encounter. The whole "Quick, DPS it down so we don't have to deal with xyz!" becomes an invalid approach and then players have to use the full realm of their classes abilities to survive an encounter, dungeon, or given circumstance. It becomes about "game play", not simply smashing buttons as fast as one can.
The death watch bunker required fighters to lead a non combatant profession (crafters) into a hard to reach area of the dungeon to craft armor sets.
These kinds of things could really be expanded on in 2016...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson