F2P as a revenue model rises as the MMORPG 'dies'.
While I can't assume F2P is the sole cause, if it's a cause at all, there doesn't seem to be any credible discussion in any of the gaming press about the part it has had in the continuing fall from grace of this genre.
All I see generally is the continued positive promotion of it in the gaming press, even as MMORPG dedicated websites get ready to jump ship by expanding their coverage to other genres.
It just seems that they are championing a rev model that might well be killing the genre, while making ready to leave that genre as a smoking heap of rubble.
Western F2P is different than Asian F2P. Western F2P are mostly games that failed at using the sub model. If anything, in the west the F2P model is one of the only things that kept many of these games alive. It might even be safe to assume without that fall back, the genre would have dried up in the west faster than it did. Take all of those F2p games away, what are we left with in terms of western studios? WOW, GW2 and ESO?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
F2P as a revenue model rises as the MMORPG 'dies'.
While I can't assume F2P is the sole cause, if it's a cause at all, there doesn't seem to be any credible discussion in any of the gaming press about the part it has had in the continuing fall from grace of this genre.
All I see generally is the continued positive promotion of it in the gaming press, even as MMORPG dedicated websites get ready to jump ship by expanding their coverage to other genres.
It just seems that they are championing a rev model that might well be killing the genre, while making ready to leave that genre as a smoking heap of rubble.
Western F2P is different than Asian F2P. Western F2P are mostly games that failed at using the sub model. If anything, in the west the F2P model is one of the only things that kept many of these games alive. It might even be safe to assume without that fall back, the genre would have dried up in the west faster than it did. Take all of those F2p games away, what are we left with in terms of western studios? WOW, GW2 and ESO?
If we're lumping in ESO, then SWTOR would be there too. Mostly, though, yeah. Actually, probably just WoW because GW2 is sustaining itself due to a cash shop, not new sales.
If we're lumping in ESO, then SWTOR would be there too. Mostly, though, yeah. Actually, probably just WoW because GW2 is sustaining itself due to a cash shop, not new sales.
That's true about sustainability, GW2 and ESO do survive more on MT than they do on Box sales/subs
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I generally hate f2p but I have a soft spot for Path of Exile. Their cash shop must be the work of the devil because I didn't notice it back when I played that game.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
I generally hate f2p but I have a soft spot for Path of Exile. Their cash shop must be the work of the devil because I didn't notice it back when I played that game.
PoE definitely had a great cash shop. However, based on what Jim Sterling says, it's still impacting the game and he's a respected and knowledgeable industry expert :awesome:
I don't get how the F2P crapware is worse than the B2P crapware or worse than the DLC crapware or the subscription crapware. The others you have to ask for a refund if you don't like, if it qualifies.
The problem is the community most of the time is willing to pay for Crapware. Now that does not mean someone who is heavy into 4X games does not like a game like Masters of Orion because MOO is an entry level 4X game. Or someone does not like sword coast legends because Neverwinter nights 2 was far better quality and someone likes sword coast legends because they are new to that work.
The problem is that the community is so ready to drop $10,000 on a game like ArcheAge which has a ton of problems to be the best PVPer on the game. Or $1000 on a ship in Star Citizen which is not even in true Beta. These companies use any stupid way of getting people to part with a stupid amount of money.
I don't get how the F2P crapware is worse than the B2P crapware or worse than the DLC crapware or the subscription crapware. The others you have to ask for a refund if you don't like, if it qualifies.
The problem is the community most of the time is willing to pay for Crapware. Now that does not mean someone who is heavy into 4X games does not like a game like Masters of Orion because MOO is an entry level 4X game. Or someone does not like sword coast legends because Neverwinter nights 2 was far better quality and someone likes sword coast legends because they are new to that work.
The problem is that the community is so ready to drop $10,000 on a game like ArcheAge which has a ton of problems to be the best PVPer on the game. Or $1000 on a ship in Star Citizen which is not even in true Beta. These companies use any stupid way of getting people to part with a stupid amount of money.
There are a lot of free RPGs on Steam. They don't cost anything. So how is that worse than paying for it? Perceived value maybe. MMO gamers are so used to being milked that free doesn't really mean free. That's not true of every RPG labeled free on Steam. You just have to look.
Totally agree. The problem is that the community is too busy looking over their shoulder at what the other guy is buying than on the game itself. There are games which are clear money sinks. ROM was fucking insane!!! That's to say that if you weren't sinking hundreds of dollars into the game, you were simply not viable at the top tiers of the end game. In comparison, it makes me laugh inside when people complain about spending $10 on extra bag slots or auction slots. It makes me laugh even harder when people complain about games like SWTOR, where you can buy unlocks for those locked items using in-game gold!! I mean there are some games that are actually very fair with their monetization these days. Unfortunately the community seeks to villify all of these, instead of just the few major offenders, resulting in dilution of the argument. It allows these major offenders to continue to operate. So Jim Sterling isn't helping anything here either, so congrats on furthering your ineptitude on the subject, Jim.
I don't get how the F2P crapware is worse than the B2P crapware or worse than the DLC crapware or the subscription crapware. The others you have to ask for a refund if you don't like, if it qualifies.
The problem is the community most of the time is willing to pay for Crapware. Now that does not mean someone who is heavy into 4X games does not like a game like Masters of Orion because MOO is an entry level 4X game. Or someone does not like sword coast legends because Neverwinter nights 2 was far better quality and someone likes sword coast legends because they are new to that work.
The problem is that the community is so ready to drop $10,000 on a game like ArcheAge which has a ton of problems to be the best PVPer on the game. Or $1000 on a ship in Star Citizen which is not even in true Beta. These companies use any stupid way of getting people to part with a stupid amount of money.
There are a lot of free RPGs on Steam. They don't cost anything. So how is that worse than paying for it? Perceived value maybe. MMO gamers are so used to being milked that free doesn't really mean free. That's not true of every RPG labeled free on Steam. You just have to look.
Totally agree. The problem is that the community is too busy looking over their shoulder at what the other guy is buying than on the game itself. There are games which are clear money sinks. ROM was fucking insane!!! That's to say that if you weren't sinking hundreds of dollars into the game, you were simply not viable at the top tiers of the end game. In comparison, it makes me laugh inside when people complain about spending $10 on extra bag slots or auction slots. It makes me laugh even harder when people complain about games like SWTOR, where you can buy unlocks for those locked items using in-game gold!! I mean there are some games that are actually very fair with their monetization these days. Unfortunately the community seeks to villify all of these, instead of just the few major offenders, resulting in dilution of the argument. It allows these major offenders to continue to operate. So Jim Sterling isn't helping anything here either, so congrats on furthering your ineptitude on the subject, Jim.
You mean the same swtor that started out with restricting the amount of action bars, the content you could play and restricted you in plenty other ways just so you would end up paying. The way you are treated essentially make it a subscription game, just with a much larger cash shop.
When it comes to the cash shops they generally work in similar fashion, let's take out some of the things that you have in game and put it in a cash shop. Most common thing designers did was remove costumes that were rare and only make rare looks accessible through the cash shop. With "items of convenience" in the cash shop you get exp and reputation boosts that do make a pretty big difference but most people just readily accept them.
Many deluxe editions do the same thing, It made a huge difference to have a mount from the start of the open world in rift, to get better wings quicker in aion, to have a faster mount without paying in tera. If you think it didn't make a difference you probably never used any of them.
In many cases the changes are subtle so that most people won't notice it but if you are aware of it you will definitely notice it in pretty much every game. If I look at it harshly, my avatar in path of exile looked like shit and you definitely had to do more bag management if you didn't pay for unlocks. It just wasn't to the level that made me open my wallet.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
i am against abusive microtransactions specially in AAA single-player focused games, even optional ones, but some of them are indeed optional. here is an example: every AAA Assassin's Creed game usually takes around nearly 15-20 hours to finish. Syndicate for example has Microtransaction, but whether you use it or not, you are still gonna end the game in nearly 20 hours with nearly best items just like other AC games. so the core gametime hasn't changed.
these optional ones are unwelcome regardless specially since they have the potential to be more dangerous in the future and that's what makes many worried...
I feel the same way anything between 0.01 through $1 is a micro-transaction.
Anything above $1 is cash shop.
Anything that is either cash shop is either..
Free 2 Play Pay 2 Enjoy or Free 2 Play.
Free 2 Play, Any game that offers actual DLC, Character Customization, and Character Unlock packs with unlimited character customization and full character appearance changes. ( No Pay 2 Win, or Pay 2 Enjoy.)
Pay 2 Enjoy, Games like Final Fantasy XIV, Arche Age, ESO, any game that requires Real Money to change a characters total appearance at $5 or more per character customization. Doesn't make ESO, or FFXIV Garbage, Just personally I won't play FFXIV due to how cosmetics, and housing is, and ESO is still great just they could have done better on both games, and what choice is there name one MMO that doesn't really suck created today.
Pay 2 Win, Any game that gives a huge lead over the enemy example "Arche Age" Having 7 accounts to boost your progression, or Game OF War on android, any game that doesn't follow the other two exactly.
This is how I rate my games.
Also I don't play games with Insane DLC prices like Dead OR Alive last round, or Assassins Creed, anything that has DLC with an insane price I likely won't play it because IMO it sucks anyways, or just be a pirate and get it all for free although steps to do that can't be talked about here but its what a lot of people do and why game developers try to stop piracy.
I find it quite cute that people who want to play F2P are complaining the company is pushing them to sub well hell yeah why wouldn't they? The main objective is to get you to spend money and they are letting you play their game and you all have the audacity after spending hours upon hours playing to be put upon because OMG the game tried to get me to spend money.
Yes they should restrict the features to make you spend because you're getting hours of entertainment for nothing. The whole disgusting mentality of people who just want to play and pay nothing continues to amaze me.
I find it quite cute that people who want to play F2P are complaining the company is pushing them to sub well hell yeah why wouldn't they? The main objective is to get you to spend money and they are letting you play their game and you all have the audacity after spending hours upon hours playing to be put upon because OMG the game tried to get me to spend money.
Yes they should restrict the features to make you spend because you're getting hours of entertainment for nothing. The whole disgusting mentality of people who just want to play and pay nothing continues to amaze me.
The key thing about f2p is that its not about making you pay as much money as you would pay for a regular game, its to make you pay more than you originally would have paid. Its just that some developers earn more than enough by not stripping your wallet.
I would rather pay a fixed sum of money instead of having to deal with microtransactions, that's never an available option. Sub to a fremium game and the cash shop will still be there. Microtransactions also made their way into more and more AAA games, meaning that you have to deal with them on top of the $60 price tag.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
You can thank your whiny fellow players for microtransactions. They pushed and pushed for games to go free to play and companies are now loath to go back to a sub system when they can earn far more with microtransactions. Once they realised they can strip a game into many features and charge for them including action bars the sky was the limit.
Of course you can say I vote with my wallet but when you can no longer actually vote with a wallet when the game if F2P you took away the only way you could have shown your disagreement so now all you can do is try and find the least repugnant microtransaction game . You should give yourselves a pat on the back for the devolution of the genre.
I don't get how the F2P crapware is worse than the B2P crapware or worse than the DLC crapware or the subscription crapware. The others you have to ask for a refund if you don't like, if it qualifies.
The problem is the community most of the time is willing to pay for Crapware. Now that does not mean someone who is heavy into 4X games does not like a game like Masters of Orion because MOO is an entry level 4X game. Or someone does not like sword coast legends because Neverwinter nights 2 was far better quality and someone likes sword coast legends because they are new to that work.
The problem is that the community is so ready to drop $10,000 on a game like ArcheAge which has a ton of problems to be the best PVPer on the game. Or $1000 on a ship in Star Citizen which is not even in true Beta. These companies use any stupid way of getting people to part with a stupid amount of money.
There are a lot of free RPGs on Steam. They don't cost anything. So how is that worse than paying for it? Perceived value maybe. MMO gamers are so used to being milked that free doesn't really mean free. That's not true of every RPG labeled free on Steam. You just have to look.
Totally agree. The problem is that the community is too busy looking over their shoulder at what the other guy is buying than on the game itself. There are games which are clear money sinks. ROM was fucking insane!!! That's to say that if you weren't sinking hundreds of dollars into the game, you were simply not viable at the top tiers of the end game. In comparison, it makes me laugh inside when people complain about spending $10 on extra bag slots or auction slots. It makes me laugh even harder when people complain about games like SWTOR, where you can buy unlocks for those locked items using in-game gold!! I mean there are some games that are actually very fair with their monetization these days. Unfortunately the community seeks to villify all of these, instead of just the few major offenders, resulting in dilution of the argument. It allows these major offenders to continue to operate. So Jim Sterling isn't helping anything here either, so congrats on furthering your ineptitude on the subject, Jim.
You mean the same swtor that started out with restricting the amount of action bars, the content you could play and restricted you in plenty other ways just so you would end up paying. The way you are treated essentially make it a subscription game, just with a much larger cash shop.
When it comes to the cash shops they generally work in similar fashion, let's take out some of the things that you have in game and put it in a cash shop. Most common thing designers did was remove costumes that were rare and only make rare looks accessible through the cash shop. With "items of convenience" in the cash shop you get exp and reputation boosts that do make a pretty big difference but most people just readily accept them.
Many deluxe editions do the same thing, It made a huge difference to have a mount from the start of the open world in rift, to get better wings quicker in aion, to have a faster mount without paying in tera. If you think it didn't make a difference you probably never used any of them.
In many cases the changes are subtle so that most people won't notice it but if you are aware of it you will definitely notice it in pretty much every game. If I look at it harshly, my avatar in path of exile looked like shit and you definitely had to do more bag management if you didn't pay for unlocks. It just wasn't to the level that made me open my wallet.
I get what you're saying, but what you describe isn't all that dissimilar from extra bag slots in PoE. What you're describing to me in PoE is that you don't have enough bag space, but you adapted. What I hear you saying about SWTOR is that you were unable to manage your action bars, but instead of adapting you picked that out as something significant. Here's the thing, though, the only reason that you found it difficult to adapt is because you've always been given multiple action bars. I actively try to manage my action bars so that I only have 1, so adapting to SWTOR F2P wasn't an issue, really. I still ended up subscribing for XP boosts because I didn't play as much as my kids and wanted to keep up with them, but action bars were never my greatest concern.
Now, on the other hand, Rift locking down the auction house hit me close to home because I love playing with the economies in MMOs, so that's what got me to subscribe to Rift.
So I guess what I'm saying is that, yes, there are differences in monetization between these games. I would agree with you that PoE had a very "tame" or limited monetization strategy, based on what I've seen. However, I also have 4 tabs in D3, so ask someone with 7 or 8 tabs in D3 if they could deal with PoE storage.
There's actually very little out there which goes beyond convenience items. I know people would like to believe that things like bag slots, auction house, etc. aren't convenience items, but they are. They make your time in the game easier. There are very few games which actually restrict your viability at later stage of the game unless you invest something into the game.
I don't get how the F2P crapware is worse than the B2P crapware or worse than the DLC crapware or the subscription crapware. The others you have to ask for a refund if you don't like, if it qualifies.
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you can google each model so you will understand ( maybe ) how they are all not the same
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You didn't understand his statement. they're all crap is what hes saying. Which i agree with him.
Yeah, he didn't understand my point at all. And it's not that all games are crap, but that Steam has crap games in every category and payment schema.
It used to bother me that they didn't curate better, but then I loosened up a bit. Steam offers and it's up to the consumer to make the decision. I would rather not someone else make that decision for me.
Don't get me wrong, blatant scam ripoffs should be booted from the Steam store, but one person's trash is anothers treasure.
All you have to do is read the reviews on steam, if you read through enough of them you can get most of the information you need. Pretty easy to see bad one quickly and the mediocre ones are rather obvious too.
Comments
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If we're lumping in ESO, then SWTOR would be there too. Mostly, though, yeah. Actually, probably just WoW because GW2 is sustaining itself due to a cash shop, not new sales.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
PoE definitely had a great cash shop. However, based on what Jim Sterling says, it's still impacting the game
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
The problem is that the community is so ready to drop $10,000 on a game like ArcheAge which has a ton of problems to be the best PVPer on the game. Or $1000 on a ship in Star Citizen which is not even in true Beta. These companies use any stupid way of getting people to part with a stupid amount of money.
Totally agree. The problem is that the community is too busy looking over their shoulder at what the other guy is buying than on the game itself. There are games which are clear money sinks. ROM was fucking insane!!! That's to say that if you weren't sinking hundreds of dollars into the game, you were simply not viable at the top tiers of the end game. In comparison, it makes me laugh inside when people complain about spending $10 on extra bag slots or auction slots. It makes me laugh even harder when people complain about games like SWTOR, where you can buy unlocks for those locked items using in-game gold!! I mean there are some games that are actually very fair with their monetization these days. Unfortunately the community seeks to villify all of these, instead of just the few major offenders, resulting in dilution of the argument. It allows these major offenders to continue to operate. So Jim Sterling isn't helping anything here either, so congrats on furthering your ineptitude on the subject, Jim.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
When it comes to the cash shops they generally work in similar fashion, let's take out some of the things that you have in game and put it in a cash shop. Most common thing designers did was remove costumes that were rare and only make rare looks accessible through the cash shop. With "items of convenience" in the cash shop you get exp and reputation boosts that do make a pretty big difference but most people just readily accept them.
Many deluxe editions do the same thing, It made a huge difference to have a mount from the start of the open world in rift, to get better wings quicker in aion, to have a faster mount without paying in tera. If you think it didn't make a difference you probably never used any of them.
In many cases the changes are subtle so that most people won't notice it but if you are aware of it you will definitely notice it in pretty much every game. If I look at it harshly, my avatar in path of exile looked like shit and you definitely had to do more bag management if you didn't pay for unlocks. It just wasn't to the level that made me open my wallet.
Anything above $1 is cash shop.
Anything that is either cash shop is either..
Free 2 Play
Pay 2 Enjoy
or Free 2 Play.
Free 2 Play, Any game that offers actual DLC, Character Customization, and Character Unlock packs with unlimited character customization and full character appearance changes. ( No Pay 2 Win, or Pay 2 Enjoy.)
Pay 2 Enjoy, Games like Final Fantasy XIV, Arche Age, ESO, any game that requires Real Money to change a characters total appearance at $5 or more per character customization. Doesn't make ESO, or FFXIV Garbage, Just personally I won't play FFXIV due to how cosmetics, and housing is, and ESO is still great just they could have done better on both games, and what choice is there name one MMO that doesn't really suck created today.
Pay 2 Win, Any game that gives a huge lead over the enemy example "Arche Age" Having 7 accounts to boost your progression, or Game OF War on android, any game that doesn't follow the other two exactly.
This is how I rate my games.
Also I don't play games with Insane DLC prices like Dead OR Alive last round, or Assassins Creed, anything that has DLC with an insane price I likely won't play it because IMO it sucks anyways, or just be a pirate and get it all for free although steps to do that can't be talked about here but its what a lot of people do and why game developers try to stop piracy.
Yes they should restrict the features to make you spend because you're getting hours of entertainment for nothing. The whole disgusting mentality of people who just want to play and pay nothing continues to amaze me.
I would rather pay a fixed sum of money instead of having to deal with microtransactions, that's never an available option. Sub to a fremium game and the cash shop will still be there. Microtransactions also made their way into more and more AAA games, meaning that you have to deal with them on top of the $60 price tag.
Of course you can say I vote with my wallet but when you can no longer actually vote with a wallet when the game if F2P you took away the only way you could have shown your disagreement so now all you can do is try and find the least repugnant microtransaction game . You should give yourselves a pat on the back for the devolution of the genre.
I get what you're saying, but what you describe isn't all that dissimilar from extra bag slots in PoE. What you're describing to me in PoE is that you don't have enough bag space, but you adapted. What I hear you saying about SWTOR is that you were unable to manage your action bars, but instead of adapting you picked that out as something significant. Here's the thing, though, the only reason that you found it difficult to adapt is because you've always been given multiple action bars. I actively try to manage my action bars so that I only have 1, so adapting to SWTOR F2P wasn't an issue, really. I still ended up subscribing for XP boosts because I didn't play as much as my kids and wanted to keep up with them, but action bars were never my greatest concern.
Now, on the other hand, Rift locking down the auction house hit me close to home because I love playing with the economies in MMOs, so that's what got me to subscribe to Rift.
So I guess what I'm saying is that, yes, there are differences in monetization between these games. I would agree with you that PoE had a very "tame" or limited monetization strategy, based on what I've seen. However, I also have 4 tabs in D3, so ask someone with 7 or 8 tabs in D3 if they could deal with PoE storage.
There's actually very little out there which goes beyond convenience items. I know people would like to believe that things like bag slots, auction house, etc. aren't convenience items, but they are. They make your time in the game easier. There are very few games which actually restrict your viability at later stage of the game unless you invest something into the game.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------