Black Desert is pay 2 win.

Yaevindusk

Kiyoris said:

Adjuvant1 said:

Well, I'm sorry you feel it's idiotic.

It is though, the definition is idiotic.

Saying that because an item can be gotten in the game, that the MMO isn't pay2win, while ignoring the rarity of said items, makes no sense.

In fact, these games generate money, by making those upper tier items as rare as humanly possibly. Not only are the items rare, they make the chance of you enchanting to +15 (+20 in black desert), an even more rare event.

In fact, it is almost always made so rare in Korean MMO, that the only way to get a full set of those items, is by involving the cash shop. The only way you can possibly inflate the RNG enough in your favor, is by buying out everyone else.

This is a very real possibility that we should be on the lookout for in most non-western games as a whole.

I remember Carpe Diem being a Box + Subscription game that also had a cash shop that sold increased chance to succeed on enchants that destroyed your items if you failed.

Though it remains to be seen if the Western version will sport this system as a whole and if it will be as devious as the past incarnations of the system if so.  But I digress, going back to my first post, I expect there to definitely be a period of time where supply and demand just make it so the credit card will give people the best gear for a month or two.

Even in WoW guilds that are going for World First are now requiring members to cap their character's gold by buying to all via WoW Tokens so that they can buy the best auction house items before Legion's first raid.

FlyByKnight

Basically Archeage with an extra step. Nothing to see here.  Korean + F2P = P2W

There will be knights all over with the "if it's possible after 10,000hrs of grind, its not P2W".

Cut it out.

Waterlily

Some person who seems to know what he's talking about.

Yaevindusk

FlyByKnight said:

Basically Archeage with an extra step. Nothing to see here.  Korean + F2P = P2W

There will be knights all over with the "if it's possible after 10,000hrs of grind, its not P2W".

Cut it out.

I find this no way near as bad as Archeage.  All this is is essentially just being able to sell costumes on the auction house.  Which is beneficial for those who don't have a lot of money and still want cash shop items.  Any effects to this can be worked out in beta and in time, if they play their cards right for western localization.

Money will give you an advantage in any game.  You will find a way if you really want it.  Having the ability to get cash shop items without paying is a good thing for a lot of people.

rojoArcueid

Kiyoris said:

jesusforgames said:

You can easily grind to get that ring which I'm pretty sure thats what that player did. I can get that amount of gold grinding in the korean server.

Bull, you don't understand how this game works. Enchanting rings have very high failure rate. A failed enchantment on a ring destroys it.

The enchanting system is exactly the same as in Vindictus. The RNG of enchanting is such that the value of items decreases and the cash shop becomes the main driving force behind the economy.

Neverwinter and Tera have that same garbage enchanting system. I despise that design with a passion. That is one of the worst ways companies exploit the cash shop, effectively making a game pay to win by forcing you to pay to succeed on making gear stronger with enchants.

If this is real in Black Desert i wont play that game unless there is a PvE only server where pay to win is irrelevant. But i would probably not buy the game with such crap in place. Too bad cause i really liked the beta.

Ill wait for launch and see whats up.

Yaevindusk

rojoArcueid said:

Kiyoris said:

jesusforgames said:

You can easily grind to get that ring which I'm pretty sure thats what that player did. I can get that amount of gold grinding in the korean server.

Bull, you don't understand how this game works. Enchanting rings have very high failure rate. A failed enchantment on a ring destroys it.

The enchanting system is exactly the same as in Vindictus. The RNG of enchanting is such that the value of items decreases and the cash shop becomes the main driving force behind the economy.

Neverwinter and Tera have that same garbage enchanting system. I despise that design with a passion. That is one of the worst ways companies exploit the cash shop, effectively making a game pay to win by forcing you to pay to succeed on making gear stronger with enchants.

If this is real in Black Desert i wont play that game unless there is a PvE only server where pay to win is irrelevant. But i would probably not buy the game with such crap in place. Too bad cause i really liked the beta.

Ill wait for launch and see whats up.

I'm with you on that.  Probably won't touch this game if there isn't a PvE server at launch.

Jafeeio

Can someone who has played the beta comment on how much of a money sink having a guild / guild pvp / personal housing is?

The pay4progression advantages add up really quickly if you consider that the highest tier of founders packs gets in the game 2 days before anyone else and can possibly already take control of a large amount of the territory.

I am sure there are entire guilds gearing up for this already.

Quesa

Jafeeio said:

Can someone who has played the beta comment on how much of a money sink having a guild / guild pvp / personal housing is?

The pay4progression advantages add up really quickly if you consider that the highest tier of founders packs gets in the game 2 days before anyone else and can possibly already take control of a large amount of the territory.

I am sure there are entire guilds gearing up for this already.

The sink for renting any of the residences/workshops is of minimal impact.  I never ran into problems with currency when buying/selling them.

It's p2w in the sense that you're able to get high tier gear that you, yourself, didn't directly create or work for the currency used to purchase it.  The RNG may be high but, iirc, it's fairly typical with Asian-influenced MMOs.

I really wish they would either drastically reduce the RNG aspect of the crafting/enchanting system or remove the item destruction from the process.  Additionally, they really should flatten out the improvements you can get from each level of improvement which would drastically reduce the motivation to use this RMT system.

With these kind of topics, it's all about degree, as there isn't a single MMO out there that doesn't have either a direct or indirect RMT method.

Additionally, BDO has no player-player trading and a severely limited item market (semi-fixed prices) all in the name of the infamous boogyman, RMT.

grafh

This is a pretty silly argument. It's not pay to win. PAY TO WIN, is the buying of items with real money, that give you a direct advantage over players who dont spend money. So if they had a mount, that moved 10% faster than any mount that you could obtain in the game on the cash shop, and said mount was bound to your account, this is p2w. You have no way to obtain this without spending real money, no matter how much you grind. That is the definition of p2w.


 S0 buying cosmetic items, and selling them on the AH, and then buying said super strong item, is not p2w. If the game is selling items that increases your chances for enchanting, then... yea, I can see the p2w argument. Even if someone spends 100k in real money on the game, and buys every powerful on the ah, thats still not p2w. It sucks, but its legal.

These items that they are buying off the AH had to have come from somewhere. If I get super lucky and make said ring, thats awesome. I still had to invest my own time and money into making that item. These items wont make themselves. So even if people are buying pearls, to buy costumes, to sell the costumes, it doesnt matter. do you see the circle?

Player A makes said item
Player B buys cosmetic item
player B sells cosmetic item
Player B buys player A item
Player A buys a cosmetic item they wanted or something else

Lets say the game has been out 6 months, and a new player just sells cosmetic items, and then buys all the powerful items he needs. This would be more p2w, and i would possibly agree with you. However its not really p2w. Because a new player who started at the same time, while not as strong as his buddy who spent real money, with a lot of work, time, effort, and luck, he can get to the same point.

Aelious

BDO is a great MMO mechanics and gameplay wise, has a lot of the elements I've personally been waiting for, for a long time. That said, I won't touch it with a 10' pole unless it has a PvE server or OWPvP toggle. This is one of the reasons why.

time007

Kiyoris said:

Pay2Win.

Your OP is an incorrect definition of pay 2 win. The most commonly accepted terminology of P2W is that the game DIRECTLY offers items through a cash shop that give a heavy advantage to those using real money to buy those items directly.  

Using a roundabout method to acquire those items is like any other game.    I can use real money to get ahead in any game since the beginning of MMOs.  As others have stated here already multiple times. 

The definition of P2W is NOT:  buy 1 item on the cash shop, sell it for gold, use that gold to buy other items.  P2W is to buy an item from a cash shop and use it and pwn people or get exp really fast or craft items really fast.  

Can we close this thread now because I just pwned the OPs flawed logic. 

time007

GeezerGamer said:

It doesn't matter what you call P2W or how you define it to provide whatever wiggle room you need to classify a game as P2W or not P2W. That doesn't change what is going on inside the game. That's what matters. Who are the big dogs? How did they get there? How do they stay there? Etc etc. If RMT has anything to do with that, that's all I need to know.

fine daoc was p2w.  you payed a sub, but you could buy characters off of ebay, which were alts of people who got bored.  daoc was p2w.  i didnt realize that until now!  (sarcasm)

also, not sure if you are aware.  you may have had your eyes closed in EVERY SINGLE MMO EVER MADE.  You know those gold spammers? guess what, thats how a lot of people get everything they have ever wanted in every game!!!!!  According to your logic, every single MMO is p2w.  

ugh enough with the flawed logic from the OP and p2w boys who cried wolf.

Konfess

Here is why it's not pay to win.  They're not entitle to Win 4 Free.  Someone else spends money on a game that they refuse to.  They have an advantage that others do not.  To Bad so Sad.  Selling enhancing gear is not something to be fixed, it's something P4F gamers have to live with or stop playing.  They're not paying so their opinion is worthless.  These games are not made for their free entertainment.  This thread is nothing more than a discussion of theft of service and is in violation of the Terms of Service of this site.

Aelious

time007 said:

Kiyoris said:

Pay2Win.

Your OP is an incorrect definition of pay 2 win. The most commonly accepted terminology of P2W is that the game DIRECTLY offers items through a cash shop that give a heavy advantage to those using real money to buy those items directly.  

Using a roundabout method to acquire those items is like any other game.    I can use real money to get ahead in any game since the beginning of MMOs.  As others have stated here already multiple times. 

The definition of P2W is NOT:  buy 1 item on the cash shop, sell it for gold, use that gold to buy other items.  P2W is to buy an item from a cash shop and use it and pwn people or get exp really fast or craft items really fast.  

Can we close this thread now because I just pwned the OPs flawed logic. 

The original definition of P2W you speak of, and was my definition as well, was before it was possible to sell items bought from an MMOs store for in-game currency. Disable that ability and I'd agree with you. Daum, like Trion, are allowing those store bought items to be sold in the market for the same currency used to buy powerful items. Go look up the many YouTube videos about AA on this. BDO will be headed in the same direction if it hits the EU/NA release.

It's an extra step from standard P2W, but the effect is the same.

time007

Aelious said:

time007 said:

Kiyoris said:

Pay2Win.

Your OP is an incorrect definition of pay 2 win. The most commonly accepted terminology of P2W is that the game DIRECTLY offers items through a cash shop that give a heavy advantage to those using real money to buy those items directly.  

Using a roundabout method to acquire those items is like any other game.    I can use real money to get ahead in any game since the beginning of MMOs.  As others have stated here already multiple times. 

The definition of P2W is NOT:  buy 1 item on the cash shop, sell it for gold, use that gold to buy other items.  P2W is to buy an item from a cash shop and use it and pwn people or get exp really fast or craft items really fast.  

Can we close this thread now because I just pwned the OPs flawed logic. 

The original definition of P2W you speak of, and was my definition as well, was before it was possible to sell items bought from an MMOs store for in-game currency. Disable that ability and I'd agree with you. Daum, like Trion, are allowing those store bought items to be sold in the market for the same currency used to buy powerful items. Go look up the many YouTube videos about AA on this. BDO will be headed in the same direction if it hits the EU/NA release.

It's an extra step from standard P2W, but the effect is the same.

How is this different from buying gold and using that to buy awesome items?  Its a roundabout way to pay money to win.  You are using a roundabout p2w definition. Why not just buy gold?  Why buy the stupid pearls?  because its profitable.  eventually the gold farmers will level the playing field.  

Anyways, selling cash shop gear for gold is fine.  If those people want to get ingame gold that way thats fine.  Thats the same as buying gold from a gold seller and buying that gold ring.  

And he isn't buying an item to get extra EXP, or a boost to his attack or sth.  Its not like he will level up superfast by buying pearls, getting a coat, then flipping that coat on the market.  

Honestly Ill just buy gold if that is the case.  the game isnt directly offering uber gear through their cash shop.  bottom line.  we would be having this argument, if you couldnt sell the item, but trade it.  People would go nuts about trading cash shop clothes for major cash through a barter system.  so you are just expanding the traditional definition of p2w to suit your argument. 

there is a gajillion reasons where you could take a cash shop cosmetic item, and some collector might want it, so he pays a huge sum of ingame gold.  big deal.  I want an ingame ring, but dont have the gold, let me contact a gold farmer to get it.  been going on for about 15 years now.  P2W is about cash shop items giving an unfair advantage (by wearing said cash shop item, or using said cash shop item to level up fast).  Not cash shop items being flipped for ingame gold.  

EponyxDamor

Aelious said:

The original definition of P2W you speak of, and was my definition as well, was before it was possible to sell items bought from an MMOs store for in-game currency. Disable that ability and I'd agree with you. Daum, like Trion, are allowing those store bought items to be sold in the market for the same currency used to buy powerful items. Go look up the many YouTube videos about AA on this. BDO will be headed in the same direction if it hits the EU/NA release.

It's an extra step from standard P2W, but the effect is the same.

Unfortunately, it's become a widely accepted method of generating income for most MMOs; however, there are several benefits to this system, including lessening RMT and providing players who doesn't wish to spend RL money a way to purchase item shop inventory. Several of the largest, mainstream MMOs now use this system. AA is on the more ... extreme ... side of the spectrum, landing closer to World of Tanks than, say, EVE or Wildstar.

I said it once and I'll say it again: it seems more people have a problem with the enchanting system than the payment model BDO has chosen. I would be lying if I said I was okay with the enchanting system, but I won't knock a payment model that the majority of mainstream, modern games use.

time007

NEWSFLASH:  The definition of P2W is NOT "Flipping cash shop items to get gold"

Aelious

 time007 said:

Aelious said:

The original definition of P2W you speak of, and was my definition as well, was before it was possible to sell items bought from an MMOs store for in-game currency. Disable that ability and I'd agree with you. Daum, like Trion, are allowing those store bought items to be sold in the market for the same currency used to buy powerful items. Go look up the many YouTube videos about AA on this. BDO will be headed in the same direction if it hits the EU/NA release.

It's an extra step from standard P2W, but the effect is the same.

How is this different from buying gold and using that to buy awesome items?  Its a roundabout way to pay money to win.  You are using a roundabout p2w definition. Why not just buy gold?  Why buy the stupid pearls?  because its profitable.  eventually the gold farmers will level the playing field.  

Anyways, selling cash shop gear for gold is fine.  If those people want to get ingame gold that way thats fine.  Thats the same as buying gold from a gold seller and buying that gold ring.  

And he isn't buying an item to get extra EXP, or a boost to his attack or sth.  Its not like he will level up superfast by buying pearls, getting a coat, then flipping that coat on the market.  

Honestly Ill just buy gold if that is the case.  the game isnt directly offering uber gear through their cash shop.  bottom line.  we would be having this argument, if you couldnt sell the item, but trade it.  People would go nuts about trading cash shop clothes for major cash through a barter system.  so you are just expanding the traditional definition of p2w to suit your argument. 

there is a gajillion reasons where you could take a cash shop cosmetic item, and some collector might want it, so he pays a huge sum of ingame gold.  big deal.  I want an ingame ring, but dont have the gold, let me contact a gold farmer to get it.  been going on for about 15 years now.  P2W is about cash shop items giving an unfair advantage (by wearing said cash shop item, or using said cash shop item to level up fast).  Not cash shop items being flipped for ingame gold.  

Are you using the argument that BDOs shop is more akin to RMT trading than the "traditional" definition of P2W? O.o

It takes roughly a week to level to the point, since there is no real cap, of PvPing competitively according to KR/RU standards so the leveling isn't taken into account here. What is being talked about is that you can get powerful gear, gear that is meant to take n time or n money, off of the in game market. You can also buy outfits with real money and sell those for a lot of silver to get that powerful gear a lot sooner.

Since you wanted to mention RMT trading, would a system like this do more to inhibit or encourage said RMT practices? Yeah...

Your hiding behind definitions in order to defend a way for people with money to spend getting the jump on those that can't/won't.

GeezerGamer

I recall this exact same discussion over and over repeated left, right, up, down and 2x on Sundays about how ArcheAge was NOT P2W. Same arguments, same.....It's not "win" unless you get stats you can't get in game.

Bullshit. Time is money especially in MMOs. While you are out grinding for 2 months to get your 1st piece. The spenders are buying their 4th. You'll never catch them.

So, Here we go again

I'll just wait here and LMFAO when this game releases and all the tears pour out about how we were betrayed and this is the worst company since Trion....LOL.

Waterlily

For the love of God stop whining about the definition of "Pay2Win". Words mean different things to different people, semantics discussions never go anywhere.

The fact is, you're able to convert actual real-life euros or dollars,  into usable silver, which can be used to buy powerful items. For many people, that goes too far, including me.

Foncl

That's too bad, the game does seem interesting. There's no way I'm playing if it supports acquiring gear or progression by paying instead of playing.

I'll check it out before release and see how they end up monetizing it. I haven't got the time or will to fight these pre-release pay2win battles anymore :]

MagikarpsGhost

Kiyoris said:

Let me tell you the truth. Very few other people will.

Black Desert is Pay2Win.

To buy expensive items from the market, you buy cash shop items, sell those cash shop items on the market, and then buy items from each other.

This is how most of the economy works in Black Desert.


Basically, let's say you want to buy this ring from the market.

Ogre's ring, 63 million.





Either you grind for weeks, or.....

We buy "pearls" from the cash shop with real money.



We buy, let's say costumes, with pearls from cash shop.





Now we go back to the market and sell our costumes:





Now we can buy our RING.


Pay2Win.

by your logic EVERY mmo is pay to win then. pay to win is a term used for those games that sell items unobtainable without paying real money and these items give a large advantage over others. THAT is P2W. i never understood why people cant figure out the difference.

Kopogero

Play games the way I play them. The P2W I enjoy them for $0.00, and the least P2W ones I spend $ on.

H0urg1ass

Buying another players time vs buying it directly from the company are both pay to win.  

Personally, I don't have a problem with it.  I'm an employed professional with less time for games than money. So buying someone else's "time" by purchasing PLEX from CCP and selling them to other players allows me to enjoy the game without making it a second job.  

While at the same time, someone else who is running 20 ice mining accounts 23/7 and buys PLEX to pay for them, is my hero because their extra time and effort means I have a steady stream of income.

Redruum

Wouldn't the OP point be mute if in the NA version you aren't able to place Pearl shop items up for sale?  I bet Daum goes the way of ESO as you can buy things from the cash shop with your real money, but you can't sell, trade or auction those items.  The items will only be available to you.  Seems rather presumptuous of the OP seeing how the Pearl Shop details have not been disclosed yet for NA.