I would prefer no gender or race lock on any class in any game. Role playing in an RPG is important to most players, it's in the name ;). Turning away potential players who find it hard to feel immersed in a role due to locks seems like a poor business decision. That being said.
I feel like if someone completely refuses to play a game because of this, they are acting a bit pedantic and come off as a prima donna.
IMO the more important issue affecting today's mmo's regarding immersion is voice acting.
I played about 40+ hours of BDO during beta and it was a fantastic game but if it had fully voice acted npc's and a sound score on par with ESO I might call it the most impressive mmo of all time.
From what I can tell, originally they wanted the different genders to do different things. But people complained about gender lock so they started releasing mirror classes.
Probably eventually there will be gender mirrors for all the classes but they're not quite there yet.
But there are some mirrors already in the game. I'm not sure we'll get them at release, though.
I would prefer no gender or race lock on any class in any game. Role playing in an RPG is important to most players, it's in the name . Turning away potential players who find it hard to feel immersed in a role due to locks seems like a poor business decision. That being said.
I feel like if someone completely refuses to play a game because of this, they are acting a bit pedantic and come off as a prima donna.
IMO the more important issue affecting today's mmo's regarding immersion is voice acting.
I played about 40+ hours of BDO during beta and it was a fantastic game but if it had fully voice acted npc's and a sound score on par with ESO I might call it the most impressive mmo of all time.
In the russian version I played, the cutscenses were voice-acted. They're probably in the process of recording voice actors for the English version right now.
As for the sound score, I really like the music in the game. It's got a unique feel and one of my favorite things is how there's layers of music that get more dramatic as you face more enemies. Compared to games which don't even have battle music it's phenomenal.
I don't mind female characters. I love sexy female characters and I love playing as them. I'd like the choice anyway though, it feels more natural that way. But in the end I don't mind as long as I can pick how each of the characters looks. So if it's a guy he shouldn't have to be a hulking beast nor should be a skinny nerd. For females, well, they should always be sexy. :')
Change your thoughts and you change your world. -
Norman Vincent Peale
I would state that I am way against gender locking characters in a game but I really have to understand what do you mean there's gender locked characters in this game? This game does not have gender lock what it does have the opposite of the same base type of character. For example: The Warrior (male) is a tank = The Valkyrie (female) is a tank, The Wizard = The Sorcerer. Gender locked character mean that you would only have one choice either female or male in that class and this is not the case with this game. So the point of this article is a littler off.
What i think many people have forgot is that 3 letter that have more of less disappeared last few year when come to MMO and that is RPG once upon time MMO was call MMORPG which to me still is part of MMO/MMORPG i have been play RPG since 1980 back then it was on pen and paper mostly D&D and then later AD&D and when i start play ultima online i move many of char over from pen paper to start i only play my male char from pen and paper time but when WoW come out i test make one of my female char just for the fun and she here come alive in MMO/MMORPG was fun so yeah i play both male and female char in MMO/MMORPG but im one of the few that also RPG in MMO/MMORPG when i talk in world i always RPG talk and anyone that know me in MMO/MMORPG know that im male.
So genre to me is import part when i make my char but all my char have background story why and who but last few year i have notice that people dont care what genre you behind screen it was more back in start off MMO/MMORPG i have see more and more people play both genre more today then back 1997 and 2004 so i think people is used to have choose to play both genre today.
Yes back in day i have been call gay and so on in MMO/MMORPG by male player but that is after i have made clear that im male but i have never in my life every hit on other person in MMO/MMORPG but i have hit on by other player for the have been think i was girl before i told them i guy and then name call always start.
I don't mind playing a female protagonist in other games, but in an RPG I do not want to. The whole reason I play MMOs is to become involved and immersed in another world, and I just can't do that as a female toon.
I will still play whatever class I want to the most, but it is still a stupid decision by the devs. There should only be class restrictions based on race. Gender locked classes just feels like a gimmick that I thought only crappy asian grinder MMOs used.
Jokes aside, stupid decision, not the end of the world.
Genderlocking is just a cheap tactic to lower the data usage on game servers. Makes its easier for replication on mass battles. People thinking its story/lore related are just children who either dont want or can't see that everything is about money in this business at the end of the day, and every company wants to make the most profit with the least investment.
Just like the amount you're paid for the same job is locked behind gender in real life.
Should Transgender individuals get a salary for both a man + woman together?
Should Transformers get car or life insurance?
Hmm... the burning questions of our time
They should get paid based on how tall they are. Semi-seriously, look it up, there is a correlation between height and pay. That is why I am practicing my high heels. Well, one reason anyway.
I prefer the gender locking in some games but not all. TERA for example has backstories for their classes that should be honored.
What most players do not realize is that it takes time to code a class. SO in order to speed up the process they will at times gender lock a class or 2. Too many players want everything now and cannot wait, well they do not know what they are missing.
My first MMO was Everquest, my first char was male and my second was female. After that, over the years I've had a mix.
It comes from my years of being a roleplayer and GM, I create a character in my head then build it, so gender doesn't matter as far as being a MMO player goes... but I do appreciate a female char with nice assets. ;p
If a gender/class combination does not appeal to me I usually don't care too. And with that I mean I don't care about the game then & will not spend my precious time on it.
Caerulei said:
Eastern MMOs often are like acting in a play that has already been partially written with established character archtypes. Western MMOs games are comparable to a group of actors performing an impromtu skit. Both models are valid, and not all Eastern/Western games fit in these generalizations. But Black Desert is in no way unusual or as limiting to character possibilities as some games. (See Elsword, Vindictus, Continent of the 9th Seal, Soul Worker).
And to be fully fair, I am using Eastern/Western as tendencies, not rules. Western games that follow the eastern pattern are generally ARPGs like Path of Exile, Diablo, and Torchlight. Many eastern games abandon genderlocking, such as Aion, Archage, Final Fantasy XI/XIV.
I think Black Desert more than makes up for it's gender-locking with amazing character creation and gradual release of male/female counterpart classes.
I used to be unable to play characters that were not both male and resembled me, now, I go out of my way to play characters that are female, other races/species, and/or other ethnicities and my immersion has not taken any hits. (I think playing D&D helped).
This. A thousand times. THIS.
Bill's post (and Bill, I respect the hell out of most of your stuff) is so much like so many things I see that begin:
"Well, I'm not locked in the traditional male viewpoint/ethnocentric/speaking as an American..."
But I'm sorry, you are.
See? See? I was good. I didn't say sexist. Or homophobic. Or even transphobic. You don't have to feel any of these to feel a little dysphoria about RP out of gender, I suppose, even if the largest cultures/markets in the world which are generally much more uncomfortable with homosexuality and such than we are have no problem with these gender locked characters at all, because there's no uncomfortable or insecure association with playing a gender locked character and personal sexual/gender identity.
It's understood you are adopting an archetype or a role but it doesn't effect others' view of you, nor is it going to mess with your core self image any more than a guy playing Lara Croft or reading a book with a strong female protagonist might. Probably less -- MMO characters are rarely really that strongly portrayed.
They are often more like archetypes in a pantheon or stock legends (The Princess Whose Father has Wrongly Disowned Her; The Master Thief With The Heart of Gold, The Wandering Drunken Sage Martial Arts Master) in many eastern games than approachable human-like personalities with biographies, the ordinary person caught in Events of Note (like, say, SWTOR or LOTRO as fine counterexamples).
Until a relatively short time ago in Western and Eastern theater, all the roles on stage (male or female) were played by men. So from a role point of view, it's very proper for guys at least historically, and eastern cultures are pretty comfy with individuals adopting roles, vs, this egoic immersion me-me-me indulgence thing we're more into in the US particularly and the west in general.
So, whether you are young or old, male or female, my recommendation is to stretch your boundaries and relax, and understand that -- if it isn't your thing -- at least that you are not the target (market) of this stuff and it's not meant to be a slap at your gender or sexuality either way. It's just a different way of doing things.
@comment "if I gotta look at my chats behind I better enjoy it" this is exactly the reason mmo games are retardedly sexist.
@comment: "LORE@11!! WE HAS LORE 2 bAck it up!;!!" so just because the lore has been written in the perspective of a male/female we accept it? they could also write the lore with a neutral gender. they knew about gender locking before writing the lore, therefore the lore is based on gender locked classes. not the other way aeound.
and if the lore says the player (you) is a moldy turd, ur not taking it serious either.... just because the lore is written..
and my point actually is: you're not as stupid as written above but ur making yourselves believe things to try and justify something for a better gameplay experience.
No matter how you sugarcoat it, gender-locking is being lazy.
The exception is indie and crowdfunded projects that have severely limited staff and funding.
They made this decision about their game, good for them and their Asian target market.
Sovrath said:
One thing that everyone here at MMORPG.com seems to agree on, with regards to Black Desert, Devilian, TERA, and other imported MMOs, is that gender locking classes is an unwanted practice.
Everyone? I know I could care less. I believe there are some others who also don't care. Everyone seems to be a bit presumptuous.
I'm pretty sure he means everyone working at MMORPG.com, not us forum posters......
I'm thinking by "everyone here at MMORPG.com" he meant staff wise, not every Tom, Dick and Suzy that frequents the site. Can't see the need of some taking it personally.
Myself, I disagree with gender lock, yeah I hear it is cheaper, but I feel also lazier. I feel we are at the point, technology wise, that animations and modelling are far more streamlined and since it has been stated that Black Desert is working on expanding the genders of it's classes, they know as well.
And for the record, I play mainly female characters, and not for some sexual reasoning, they just look and move better. I've seen, and played, very few male characters that I thought was cool enough to bother with. Half the time, in eastern mmo's in particualr, male models are one extreme or another, it is either some ridiculously over muscled behemoth or something so thin and girly looking you may as well be playing female.
I don't really view it as lazier if there is an in lore reason for it, as there is the creation of the eventual lore behind all of that kind of thing. A giant axe wielding thing as it is can easily be explained that the giant race is only males. Show me any fantasy lore or stories east or west where a female giant exists. I'd sit here and wait, but you will be hard pressed to do so. Giants exist in the Elder Scrolls universe as purely male entities (unless you get a mod that gives you a female model + makes her a follower)
If we really want to start breaking shit down lore wise based around stories and other things it all realistically makes sense. Warriors especially in a semi euro (asian mixed in) where predominately male during any sort of medival thing, valkyries where more battle maidens viewed in norse mythology during that time and where only females, wizards where male and witches female predominately in stories (though there are some male witches in some stories here and there). Then we can get started on differing fighting styles likely employed by different genders and the like and keep going on and on and on.
Animation and modeling is not STREAMLINED in the least.. Motion Capture still takes time and money and if you make the animations by hand it takes a LOT of time (motion capture is usually a mix of capture + hand tweaking btw) Modeling while you can alter base models + offer morphs based on it unless you go the World of Warcraft route and are okay with everything sorta not "attaching" to your body properly or being more like painted on texture work it is not easy to make things for everything under the sun in the least.
Have you looked at armor in black desert at all? https://i.ytimg.com/vi/t2qUza1uwuc/maxresdefault.jpg The shirt there is a 3d model, the armor on top of it another 3d model that is 3d for every bit of it, they are not using painted on textures and every item needs to be modeled and fit and allowed for a set parameter of morphs that a player customizing their character might do to the character. This adds up very quickly unless they massively minimize any visual differences between different sets of armor and just ultimately do color variations. Then if you start into gender versions of armors you gotta tweak a ton of things with them if you want to be sort of realistic in the least...
It is far from lazy to gender lock if you put that much work or detail into the armors / character models to begin with. What would be lazy is if they just did male or female and your choice of armor / animations was based off your gender and not your class / armor type etc and they put very little effort into it. WoW's armor design is lazier than this game even without them having gender lock in place in WoW simply because it's mainly painted on texture work..
No one that has ever done 3d modeling to any extent or any sort of character animation would say that it's been massively streamlined or easy. Modeling has gotten more complex over the years not less complex, yes we have sculpting tools now, but that still takes a good deal of time to do.
Comments
I feel like if someone completely refuses to play a game because of this, they are acting a bit pedantic and come off as a prima donna.
IMO the more important issue affecting today's mmo's regarding immersion is voice acting.
I played about 40+ hours of BDO during beta and it was a fantastic game but if it had fully voice acted npc's and a sound score on par with ESO I might call it the most impressive mmo of all time.
Probably eventually there will be gender mirrors for all the classes but they're not quite there yet.
But there are some mirrors already in the game. I'm not sure we'll get them at release, though.
As for the sound score, I really like the music in the game. It's got a unique feel and one of my favorite things is how there's layers of music that get more dramatic as you face more enemies. Compared to games which don't even have battle music it's phenomenal.
So genre to me is import part when i make my char but all my char have background story why and who but last few year i have notice that people dont care what genre you behind screen it was more back in start off MMO/MMORPG i have see more and more people play both genre more today then back 1997 and 2004 so i think people is used to have choose to play both genre today.
Yes back in day i have been call gay and so on in MMO/MMORPG by male player but that is after i have made clear that im male but i have never in my life every hit on other person in MMO/MMORPG but i have hit on by other player for the have been think i was girl before i told them i guy and then name call always start.
I will still play whatever class I want to the most, but it is still a stupid decision by the devs. There should only be class restrictions based on race. Gender locked classes just feels like a gimmick that I thought only crappy asian grinder MMOs used.
Jokes aside, stupid decision, not the end of the world.
What most players do not realize is that it takes time to code a class. SO in order to speed up the process they will at times gender lock a class or 2. Too many players want everything now and cannot wait, well they do not know what they are missing.
My first MMO was Everquest, my first char was male and my second was female. After that, over the years I've had a mix.
It comes from my years of being a roleplayer and GM, I create a character in my head then build it, so gender doesn't matter as far as being a MMO player goes... but I do appreciate a female char with nice assets. ;p
We are talking about games that add bikinis, lingerie and giant fish costumes, pegasus mounts and whatnot lmao, tell me more about that lore.
In most cases, gender locked classes is a cut-down for the budget, period.
Eastern MMOs often are like acting in a play that has already been partially written with established character archtypes. Western MMOs games are comparable to a group of actors performing an impromtu skit. Both models are valid, and not all Eastern/Western games fit in these generalizations. But Black Desert is in no way unusual or as limiting to character possibilities as some games. (See Elsword, Vindictus, Continent of the 9th Seal, Soul Worker).
And to be fully fair, I am using Eastern/Western as tendencies, not rules. Western games that follow the eastern pattern are generally ARPGs like Path of Exile, Diablo, and Torchlight. Many eastern games abandon genderlocking, such as Aion, Archage, Final Fantasy XI/XIV.
I think Black Desert more than makes up for it's gender-locking with amazing character creation and gradual release of male/female counterpart classes.
I used to be unable to play characters that were not both male and resembled me, now, I go out of my way to play characters that are female, other races/species, and/or other ethnicities and my immersion has not taken any hits. (I think playing D&D helped).
This. A thousand times. THIS.
Bill's post (and Bill, I respect the hell out of most of your stuff) is so much like so many things I see that begin:
"Well, I'm not locked in the traditional male viewpoint/ethnocentric/speaking as an American..."
But I'm sorry, you are.
See? See? I was good. I didn't say sexist. Or homophobic. Or even transphobic. You don't have to feel any of these to feel a little dysphoria about RP out of gender, I suppose, even if the largest cultures/markets in the world which are generally much more uncomfortable with homosexuality and such than we are have no problem with these gender locked characters at all, because there's no uncomfortable or insecure association with playing a gender locked character and personal sexual/gender identity.
It's understood you are adopting an archetype or a role but it doesn't effect others' view of you, nor is it going to mess with your core self image any more than a guy playing Lara Croft or reading a book with a strong female protagonist might. Probably less -- MMO characters are rarely really that strongly portrayed.
They are often more like archetypes in a pantheon or stock legends (The Princess Whose Father has Wrongly Disowned Her; The Master Thief With The Heart of Gold, The Wandering Drunken Sage Martial Arts Master) in many eastern games than approachable human-like personalities with biographies, the ordinary person caught in Events of Note (like, say, SWTOR or LOTRO as fine counterexamples).
Until a relatively short time ago in Western and Eastern theater, all the roles on stage (male or female) were played by men. So from a role point of view, it's very proper for guys at least historically, and eastern cultures are pretty comfy with individuals adopting roles, vs, this egoic immersion me-me-me indulgence thing we're more into in the US particularly and the west in general.
So, whether you are young or old, male or female, my recommendation is to stretch your boundaries and relax, and understand that -- if it isn't your thing -- at least that you are not the target (market) of this stuff and it's not meant to be a slap at your gender or sexuality either way. It's just a different way of doing things.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
@comment "if I gotta look at my chats behind I better enjoy it" this is exactly the reason mmo games are retardedly sexist.
@comment: "LORE@11!! WE HAS LORE 2 bAck it up!;!!" so just because the lore has been written in the perspective of a male/female we accept it? they could also write the lore with a neutral gender. they knew about gender locking before writing the lore, therefore the lore is based on gender locked classes. not the other way aeound.
and if the lore says the player (you) is a moldy turd, ur not taking it serious either.... just because the lore is written..
and my point actually is: you're not as stupid as written above but ur making yourselves believe things to try and justify something for a better gameplay experience.
The exception is indie and crowdfunded projects that have severely limited staff and funding.
They made this decision about their game, good for them and their Asian target market.
One thing that everyone here at MMORPG.com seems to agree on, with regards to Black Desert, Devilian, TERA, and other imported MMOs, is that gender locking classes is an unwanted practice.
Everyone? I know I could care less. I believe there are some others who also don't care. Everyone seems to be a bit presumptuous.
I'm pretty sure he means everyone working at MMORPG.com, not us forum posters......
If we really want to start breaking shit down lore wise based around stories and other things it all realistically makes sense. Warriors especially in a semi euro (asian mixed in) where predominately male during any sort of medival thing, valkyries where more battle maidens viewed in norse mythology during that time and where only females, wizards where male and witches female predominately in stories (though there are some male witches in some stories here and there). Then we can get started on differing fighting styles likely employed by different genders and the like and keep going on and on and on.
Animation and modeling is not STREAMLINED in the least.. Motion Capture still takes time and money and if you make the animations by hand it takes a LOT of time (motion capture is usually a mix of capture + hand tweaking btw) Modeling while you can alter base models + offer morphs based on it unless you go the World of Warcraft route and are okay with everything sorta not "attaching" to your body properly or being more like painted on texture work it is not easy to make things for everything under the sun in the least.
Have you looked at armor in black desert at all? https://i.ytimg.com/vi/t2qUza1uwuc/maxresdefault.jpg The shirt there is a 3d model, the armor on top of it another 3d model that is 3d for every bit of it, they are not using painted on textures and every item needs to be modeled and fit and allowed for a set parameter of morphs that a player customizing their character might do to the character. This adds up very quickly unless they massively minimize any visual differences between different sets of armor and just ultimately do color variations. Then if you start into gender versions of armors you gotta tweak a ton of things with them if you want to be sort of realistic in the least...
It is far from lazy to gender lock if you put that much work or detail into the armors / character models to begin with. What would be lazy is if they just did male or female and your choice of armor / animations was based off your gender and not your class / armor type etc and they put very little effort into it. WoW's armor design is lazier than this game even without them having gender lock in place in WoW simply because it's mainly painted on texture work..
No one that has ever done 3d modeling to any extent or any sort of character animation would say that it's been massively streamlined or easy. Modeling has gotten more complex over the years not less complex, yes we have sculpting tools now, but that still takes a good deal of time to do.
Less option = bad