Which type of skill progression sounds more interesting?

Kilrain

An open skill system where you are able to learn any skills you want, skill cap or not. How would you like to earn the skill points?

nariusseldon

D3 type gear progression where skills & gear all have their own gameplay mechanics.

One point here and one point there is so pedestrian, in comparison. 

Kilrain

nariusseldon said:

D3 type gear progression where skills & gear all have their own gameplay mechanics.

One point here and one point there is so pedestrian, in comparison. 

I don't play D3 so I don't know the specifics, but it sounds like a great system for PVE. Worth looking into more

nariusseldon

Kilrain said:

nariusseldon said:

D3 type gear progression where skills & gear all have their own gameplay mechanics.

One point here and one point there is so pedestrian, in comparison. 

I don't play D3 so I don't know the specifics, but it sounds like a great system for PVE. Worth looking into more

Basically it works as follow.

Skill system - Every class (6 in total) has may be 25-30 skills. Each skill has 5 variations. Each variation can have a different mechanics. For example, the hydra skill of wizard has a version that shoot lightning (fast auto-targeting damage) and a version that lay down fire on the ground to burn mobs (so it is like a turret that make strips of burning ground). There are a lot of combination of skills you can use.

Progression system - you earn all these by max level, and the legendary items (and sets) now have their own game play. For example, an wiz set bonus is to drop a different kind of meteor (again all different in properties and animation) every 2 seconds, rotating between 4 kinds. Another bonus is to have damage scale with the number of mobs you are burning (with fire skills).

So it is a great system because, again, you are not dealing with one point here and there, but actual gameplay changes. 

Very few companies can afford to make a system like this though, because there are so many mechanics to code & test for, and animation to make (for all the different type of meteor looks different).

goboygo

Use a weapon level the sill, jump level the skill, run level the skill, cast level the skill, then tie gear / weapons and spells to skill levels.

ste2000

EvE online is the best for both casual and hardcore players.
You accumulate skill points in real time whether you are logged on or not, then you spend it as you please.
It is a win win for everyone and narrows the gap between hardcore and casual players.

jmcdermottuk

It's always made more sense to me that the more you do something, the better you get at it. You don't go to bed at night and wake up understanding rocket propulsion, or brain surgery. Wouldn't that be nice?

You want to do a martial art, you practice. Want to play guitar, you practice. I like it to be the same in an MMO.

nariusseldon

jmcdermottuk said:

It's always made more sense to me that the more you do something, the better you get at it. You don't go to bed at night and wake up understanding rocket propulsion, or brain surgery. Wouldn't that be nice?

You want to do a martial art, you practice. Want to play guitar, you practice. I like it to be the same in an MMO.

MMOs are games, not reality. I want them to be fun, not realistic. In real life, you practice the same motion for hours to learn martial arts. Do you want to do the same in a video game? I don't. 

waynejr2

So on your  first item of skill up on use.  Shouldn't that require someone with near equal or higher skill in order to do that? Also, allow that fighting an inferior opponent could drop points.

sunandshadow

Other - specific actions level general traits.  E.g. swinging a sword might earn you a strength point every 20 swings and an agility or vitality point every 30 swings.  This is my favorite system and the one I used in the tabletop/online system I made, Imago World.

Quesa

I think that we should look at another time-based progression system which was almost exactly like Eve Online.  Perpentuum had the same type of system except you gained skill points at all times and then applied those skill points to a skill as you saw fit.  This is different to Eve Online because in Eve, you have to have a skill in your queue to gain SP, Perpentuum would store up the SP until use.

I think that the other mechanics cause too many problems.  Most of which come down to people attempting to blitz their way to the next level.  Time based skills do a pretty good job of leveling out the playing experience, as long as the game that is using it has enough content to keep a player busy during their skilling.  This also encourages a player to be online all the time or the player feels like he'll fall behind in progression.

Time based systems do have one flaw, that you feel underpowered for a good part of the new-player experience, which could last weeks.  This can be countered by aloting the new player a chunk of SP that can be redistributed a few times until a certain point.  This allows the new player to experience different paths and choose the one that best meets his needs.

waynejr2

Back in the day of pnp adnd there were a ton of magic user spells.  More than most characters could learn learn.  Except for your initial starting spells, you had to find them on scrolls in the world (or books or ancient writings in stone in a "dungeon", etc).   I would like that type of system.

Flintsteen

i'd rather say what i dont like.  A system with no choice. I'm not a fan of the new talent trees in swtor and i didn't like it in wow either. I'm more of a classic talent tree fan. Maybe it was just the illusion of choice,  especially for min/max progression raiders,  but for the more casually oriented there actually was a choice. 

ESO isn't too bad imo.  Not a huge fan of dps skillpoints are shared with crafting skillpoints,  but it's not a big issue.  More of a minor anoyance especially at lower levels when you dont have many skillpoints. But then it can  be seen as a good thing that you have to make choices where to spend points instead of getting everything you want.

The system in GW2 is ok too. It was the classic trinity i missed in that game more than anything else that got me leaving.

ESO and GW2's systems are both systems with choices.  Alot of the choice is a matter of only having room for a limited number of skills on your actionbar,  but that's fine.  swtor and wow are systems with low choice imo.  Very litlle difference between 2 people of the same class and specialisation.

mmoguy43

I really like the concept of passive progression like in Eve Online but I'd rather additionally have other means to either burst-accelerate your progression or by completing challenging objectives for XP that you can distribute.

Other option would be a combination of 1 and 2

Loke666

To have every action raising it's own point do sound fun on paper but after playing Daggerfall I seen that leading to players jumping instead of walking to get skill points and similar. It works in pen and paper like BRP when you get an XP in a skill for each crit but in MMOs it never worked for me.

I like Shadowruns Karma system, whenever you finished a larger goal you get a bunch of karma you can use to improve yourself anyways you want with good cost system. In a MMO you wouldn't get karma for doing a quest but you would get it for completing a dungeon or a longer questchain/DE chain. Preferably do you link it to achivements so you get karma for completing stuff you havn't done before, a small amount for killing a hard boss the first time and so on.

@waynejr2 Have a point, certain things are fun to find in the game, if you do it by spellscrolls or by stealing skills from bosses like Guildwars diddoesn't really matter. There need to be a limit on how many skills/scrolls like that you can equip at the same time though, like both D&D and GW done.

@flintsteen also have a good point, customization is important in MMOs. 

The worst systems I seen are either ones with no real choices where everyone of the same class have the same skills, systems that pretend to have choices but you really only can be one way to be competetive and system that allows any player to have all skills at the same time. The last one gets really unbalanced.

mmoguy43

nariusseldon said:

Kilrain said:

nariusseldon said:

D3 type gear progression where skills & gear all have their own gameplay mechanics.

One point here and one point there is so pedestrian, in comparison. 

I don't play D3 so I don't know the specifics, but it sounds like a great system for PVE. Worth looking into more

Basically it works as follow.

Skill system - Every class (6 in total) has may be 25-30 skills. Each skill has 5 variations. Each variation can have a different mechanics. For example, the hydra skill of wizard has a version that shoot lightning (fast auto-targeting damage) and a version that lay down fire on the ground to burn mobs (so it is like a turret that make strips of burning ground). There are a lot of combination of skills you can use.

Progression system - you earn all these by max level, and the legendary items (and sets) now have their own game play. For example, an wiz set bonus is to drop a different kind of meteor (again all different in properties and animation) every 2 seconds, rotating between 4 kinds. Another bonus is to have damage scale with the number of mobs you are burning (with fire skills).

So it is a great system because, again, you are not dealing with one point here and there, but actual gameplay changes. 

Very few companies can afford to make a system like this though, because there are so many mechanics to code & test for, and animation to make (for all the different type of meteor looks different).

In other words, most of the D3's progression lies within your character level and the stats from your gear. Skill progression unlocks more gameplay options instead of making skills more powerful.

waynejr2

Loke666 said:

To have every action raising it's own point do sound fun on paper but after playing Daggerfall I seen that leading to players jumping instead of walking to get skill points and similar. It works in pen and paper like BRP when you get an XP in a skill for each crit but in MMOs it never worked for me.

I like Shadowruns Karma system, whenever you finished a larger goal you get a bunch of karma you can use to improve yourself anyways you want with good cost system. In a MMO you wouldn't get karma for doing a quest but you would get it for completing a dungeon or a longer questchain/DE chain. Preferably do you link it to achivements so you get karma for completing stuff you havn't done before, a small amount for killing a hard boss the first time and so on.

@waynejr2 Have a point, certain things are fun to find in the game, if you do it by spellscrolls or by stealing skills from bosses like Guildwars diddoesn't really matter. There need to be a limit on how many skills/scrolls like that you can equip at the same time though, like both D&D and GW done.

@flintsteen also have a good point, customization is important in MMOs. 

The worst systems I seen are either ones with no real choices where everyone of the same class have the same skills, systems that pretend to have choices but you really only can be one way to be competetive and system that allows any player to have all skills at the same time. The last one gets really unbalanced.

I feel it is more interesting that bam here are all your new spells.  Plus, different PCs will end up with different spells lists.  Which is nice

Cereal2K

I think one of the best ways I've seen so far was in Mortal Online.
It basically takes EVEs book approach but you can also increase skills manually AND you gain those skills while you read so it has granularity to it. It's not just like you're shit at this for 3 weeks and then all of a sudden you got the skill so you actually feel like you're improving as you learn it.

The problem I have with the EVE system is
a) it feels like you're not actually getting rewarded by doing something because it doesnt matter if you're online or not you get skill either way and
b) you have some dumb gates in front of you that open after a specific time - sorry cant do that thing you wanna do not even badly you just have to wait another 6 weeks to unlock it.
And I didnt even play EVE for more than a year or so when those times are still semi low....I just cant sit in front of the pc and wait for a thing for months when I have zero way of making it faster through playing even if that increase would be miniscule so I got tired of waiting for stuff in the end.
Not saying EVEs system is crap it's just definitely not for me in the long run if I play I wanna be able to gain the skill I use not just magically be awarded points after a fixed time and nothing in between.

I guess the answer is a mix is fairly nice....slow timed progression with some means to gain skill through use or speed it up in the meantime by doing something

sunandshadow

Loke666 said:

To have every action raising it's own point do sound fun on paper but after playing Daggerfall I seen that leading to players jumping instead of walking to get skill points and similar.

I find that fun.  

Kilrain

waynejr2 said:

So on your  first item of skill up on use.  Shouldn't that require someone with near equal or higher skill in order to do that? Also, allow that fighting an inferior opponent could drop points.

Someone or some thing? I'm pretty firm on the idea that skilling up on other players is bad. It's too easy to exploit.

As far as NPCs go, I was thinking something along the lines of this:

Like "traditional" MMORPGs, each NPC carries xx amount of xp points. Lets say you hit this npc with your sword for 30%  of total damage and hit him with some arrows for 70% of damage. The skill points that NPC provides will be distributed to your skills in that exact way.

with this system, if someone else comes along and gets the final blow, they only get the % for whatever damage they caused. Also, as the NPC heals (or after a certain amount of time) the older damage gets pushed off the stack. So you wont be able to do a bunch of damage to an NPC and leave thinking someone else can finish the job for you, you wont get any xp.

Cyrael

Fun fact, when FFXIV 1.0 launched, it actually had the first system. But it was rather broken and buggy, so that was one of the first things they changed about the game.

Vrika

Other - Do away with skill points completely. Everyone gets all the basic skills as they level up. Customization options for basic skills can be purchased from traders, crafted, or in case of some rarer customizations, must be obtained through quests or challenges.

jmcdermottuk

nariusseldon said:

jmcdermottuk said:

It's always made more sense to me that the more you do something, the better you get at it. You don't go to bed at night and wake up understanding rocket propulsion, or brain surgery. Wouldn't that be nice?

You want to do a martial art, you practice. Want to play guitar, you practice. I like it to be the same in an MMO.

MMOs are games, not reality. I want them to be fun, not realistic. In real life, you practice the same motion for hours to learn martial arts. Do you want to do the same in a video game? I don't. 

I don't particularly care what you like or want, the poll asks what I like and want. It's my vote, my choice. You don't see me telling anyone they're wrong for choosing differently to me. We're all entitled to our own opinions. Who are you to tell me what I should like?

As you say so often, fun is subjective. You're right, it is. I like a certain level of realism. I like a game that makes sense to me. To me it makes sense that if I run around using a sword, I'm going to get better with it but it's not going to make me better at swimming. I'm not exactly sure how that would stop a game from being fun. Skyrim didn't seem to suffer from doing it that way. Let me think.....

Mmmmmmm, nope. Doesn't stop it being fun for me.

Steelhelm

Because I'm not a fan of end-game and with all these systems you will be at a skill cap and devs have to create more content. The way I've thought of a system it would be something like this:

No skill progression. No levels. No classes.
Basic attributes like strength, agility, intelligence, stamina. Everyone starts the same. Perhaps there'll be some racial abilities. Abilities like fireball and different weapon strikes are gathered through questing. The power of any certain ability would depend on the corresponding attribute value.

That's basically it. Attribute values could be raised through temporary buffs(that are also abilities like spells) and magical items.

So the game progress(if desired) would be about gathering abilities through questing and acquiring gear through crafting and slaying monsters. Of course there could be other kind of progress like creating a guild(making friends), building a house, decorating a house, building a fortress, territorial pvp on some part of the map etc

A bit out of the topic, but yeah..

deniter

You learn to swing a sword by swinging a sword, there's no shortcut to master things. Ofc there could be mechanics like trainers or manuals that give you boosts or buffs for learning certain skills. Loke was worried about people learning jump skill by jumping everywhere, which looks silly. Obviously this is bad design, you shouldn't be able to skill up like this.

I don't like the idea of distributing skills in level up; you just don't learn to cast fireball when you have grinded mobs for hours with your sword.

EVE style of progress may suit for others but i don't like progress being tied in real time. You pay a sub and stay logged off = profit? Don't think so.

kjempff

I like non-automated skill systems. This means you must unlock certain points in your progression by doing specific tasks such as a questline, beating challenges or training with a skill master/grandmaster/etc - specific equipment is also an option. This can be combined with distributed points system or learning by using, but the important part is that not every level of profeciency is available just by distributing enough points or swinging that sword enough times, but that it has to be achieved - Earned.

Other than that, the skills themselves and what you can use them for and how much freedom it gives in term of combinations (or builds if you like) and choice of play style.. That is more important than how you actually gain it.

Not a fan of flat time based skill progression like EVE which does not reward the player for playing harder.