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Argghh!!! The dumbed down gameplay these days!! These young folk don't know what they missed.
Abuz0r
Member UncommonPosts: 550
Wow. Auto-pathing? Quest map markers? Instant fast travel? Dungeon finder? Leveling while AFK/Offline?
Oh my gosh, there's so many ways to raise up all your variable indicators in video games without actually having to do the R, P, or G in RPG. Yes these games are massively multiplayer and they have WOWZOR graphics and really neat animations and excellent music.
I spent the last weekend playing Morrowind (Elder Scrolls III for those of you in Rio Linda,) and realized the same things have happened in Oblivion and Skyrim / Fallout NV and Fallout V. Even the single player games are getting worse not better. Some how game developers think games are better when you have to be less invested in them. You go on there, next next next, fast travel, accomplish mission, look for next quest indicator, have no idea what you just did or why you did it, but YAY you finished a quest.
I remember spending 3-4 hours in the afternoon farming skeletons in a dungeon. It wasn't dreary or monotonous... We were looking for epic loot, it was 0.00001% for the epic loot, but me and 3 or 4 people I didn't know would have some of the greatest conversations while doing it. The games were super fun. Max level? End Game?? What's that?
The problem is not the grind, or lack of grind, it's purely the presentation. Games have gotten so focused on removing all essence of grind, that it's usually a slippy slide to max level, then an ATARI game once you get there. That's why these games die, once people get to the bottom of the slippy slide and realize they don't care for the ATARI game, they come back on these forums looking for the next one.
So here are my list of things that are obviously getting scraped off of games that's making them less fun:
Time investment, critical thinking (Figuring out what you're supposed to do, and where you're supposed to go,) social interaction (dungeon instafinder,) decisions, consequences, and risk/reward (just reward).
Oh, you clicked the exclamation point guy, here's you're new sword!!!!! YAYYYY. I want to puke, you don't have to earn anything on games anymore, you're just supposed to spend 3 days clicking next and auto-pathing in line with all the gold-farm bots. What happened to crafting your gear, or rounding up friends to go try to take down a big monster that might drop it. LOL even the big monsters are easy now, I remember back in the day raid bosses were usually failures and guilds would take turns pulling them.
Can 1 developer, just 1, please, download Morrowind and play it for 24 hours in-game time. Can just 1 download... Well, I was going to say Lineage 2, but it's been made over into a 'modern game' lol. I was going to say put 8 hours into the original Runescape, but I don't think they let you do that either. Ultima Online? Try it for 6 hours for the concepts, no I don't want the graphics. Forget you ever saw WoW, it's not to be replicated, the reason there's the drought of amazing games is because of the constant incessant attempts at bringing WoW elements into other games.
Hah, lets even follow the progression of WoW.
Vanilla: With a baseline of quest indicators and other things we really hadn't seen before, lots of talents (hundreds of viable builds), very expensive to change them. Black rock depths was a dungeon most casual players couldn't finish. Getting to the entrance of the dungeon with your group was a task of itself, really meant if you died in the dungeon it was going to be even more frustrating. Timed dungeons where if you weren't really good you'd actually fail the dungeon. ... Molten core? Youtube: MC Raiders "We ain't got no lifffeee" BWL, 90% couldn't get past the first boss.
BC: Missed it won't pretend.
WOTLK: I played this one. A lot less talents by now, less decisions, more similar character builds. In fact, it got to where you weren't viable unless you put your points in the right places so there were like 20 to 25 viable builds per class. Easy / Hard mode dungeon, so everyone can win!! Play easymode until your gear = X then go to hard mode and maybe fail a dungeon once or twice, but then back to winning. (Did dungeon finder come at the end)
Cataclysm: Dungeonfinder!!!! Now I can troll global chat in Orgrimmar while getting ready for my dungeon. Even less talents, Down to like 15 viable builds per class. Rated battlegrounds were freaking awesome. If you enter a dungeon you can finish it, you might wipe once or twice, but you can finish it, no problem. (Raids are still hard)
Pandas: Raidfinder!!! Now I don't have to get a group for that either. Less talents, down to like 8 viable builds. Got mad and quit about the talent dumbing down.
Now: Almost to atari game.
Just to show you how over the last 10 years games have been made more narrow and freedom has been traded for fairness. Risk/Reward has been traded for quest rewards. Even social grouping has been traded for random grouping.
Oh my gosh, there's so many ways to raise up all your variable indicators in video games without actually having to do the R, P, or G in RPG. Yes these games are massively multiplayer and they have WOWZOR graphics and really neat animations and excellent music.
I spent the last weekend playing Morrowind (Elder Scrolls III for those of you in Rio Linda,) and realized the same things have happened in Oblivion and Skyrim / Fallout NV and Fallout V. Even the single player games are getting worse not better. Some how game developers think games are better when you have to be less invested in them. You go on there, next next next, fast travel, accomplish mission, look for next quest indicator, have no idea what you just did or why you did it, but YAY you finished a quest.
I remember spending 3-4 hours in the afternoon farming skeletons in a dungeon. It wasn't dreary or monotonous... We were looking for epic loot, it was 0.00001% for the epic loot, but me and 3 or 4 people I didn't know would have some of the greatest conversations while doing it. The games were super fun. Max level? End Game?? What's that?
The problem is not the grind, or lack of grind, it's purely the presentation. Games have gotten so focused on removing all essence of grind, that it's usually a slippy slide to max level, then an ATARI game once you get there. That's why these games die, once people get to the bottom of the slippy slide and realize they don't care for the ATARI game, they come back on these forums looking for the next one.
So here are my list of things that are obviously getting scraped off of games that's making them less fun:
Time investment, critical thinking (Figuring out what you're supposed to do, and where you're supposed to go,) social interaction (dungeon instafinder,) decisions, consequences, and risk/reward (just reward).
Oh, you clicked the exclamation point guy, here's you're new sword!!!!! YAYYYY. I want to puke, you don't have to earn anything on games anymore, you're just supposed to spend 3 days clicking next and auto-pathing in line with all the gold-farm bots. What happened to crafting your gear, or rounding up friends to go try to take down a big monster that might drop it. LOL even the big monsters are easy now, I remember back in the day raid bosses were usually failures and guilds would take turns pulling them.
Can 1 developer, just 1, please, download Morrowind and play it for 24 hours in-game time. Can just 1 download... Well, I was going to say Lineage 2, but it's been made over into a 'modern game' lol. I was going to say put 8 hours into the original Runescape, but I don't think they let you do that either. Ultima Online? Try it for 6 hours for the concepts, no I don't want the graphics. Forget you ever saw WoW, it's not to be replicated, the reason there's the drought of amazing games is because of the constant incessant attempts at bringing WoW elements into other games.
Hah, lets even follow the progression of WoW.
Vanilla: With a baseline of quest indicators and other things we really hadn't seen before, lots of talents (hundreds of viable builds), very expensive to change them. Black rock depths was a dungeon most casual players couldn't finish. Getting to the entrance of the dungeon with your group was a task of itself, really meant if you died in the dungeon it was going to be even more frustrating. Timed dungeons where if you weren't really good you'd actually fail the dungeon. ... Molten core? Youtube: MC Raiders "We ain't got no lifffeee" BWL, 90% couldn't get past the first boss.
BC: Missed it won't pretend.
WOTLK: I played this one. A lot less talents by now, less decisions, more similar character builds. In fact, it got to where you weren't viable unless you put your points in the right places so there were like 20 to 25 viable builds per class. Easy / Hard mode dungeon, so everyone can win!! Play easymode until your gear = X then go to hard mode and maybe fail a dungeon once or twice, but then back to winning. (Did dungeon finder come at the end)
Cataclysm: Dungeonfinder!!!! Now I can troll global chat in Orgrimmar while getting ready for my dungeon. Even less talents, Down to like 15 viable builds per class. Rated battlegrounds were freaking awesome. If you enter a dungeon you can finish it, you might wipe once or twice, but you can finish it, no problem. (Raids are still hard)
Pandas: Raidfinder!!! Now I don't have to get a group for that either. Less talents, down to like 8 viable builds. Got mad and quit about the talent dumbing down.
Now: Almost to atari game.
Just to show you how over the last 10 years games have been made more narrow and freedom has been traded for fairness. Risk/Reward has been traded for quest rewards. Even social grouping has been traded for random grouping.
Comments
This concept of AAA games vs Indie games is also stupid. Look at Path Of Exile. 100x better than Diablo 3 (and more popular too). It gets classified as an Indie game to minimalize it's impact on the market. Look at League of Legends, although somehow it's gotten considered AAA now.
What defines a AAA game or an Indie game? AAA game spent a billion dollars making a pile of trash but because it has a brand name on it the game is automatically going to be good? Nope.
Also, I never even once suggested that developers can't design a game. I suggested that they remove elements from it that make the game challenging. Challenge after challenge. Social Challenge, time investment challenge, performance challenge. They make the game easier and simpler, update after update.
I don't appreciate you insulting me by suggesting that I first of all said something I didn't say, then trying to use the thing I didn't say to accuse me of not living in reality. That's quite rude, I'm happy for you if you enjoy easy mode games, but that doesn't mean you have to insult my opinions.
% immediately go out and look for automation game play like add ons and bots and instant gratification through rmt.
Then we have players joining a game just because it has 5x or 9x xp boosts for returning players or new players.Instant level 60 or instant level 90,it has come to the point there is no gaming left at all in many of these games and also seems the players are shallow enough to want that.
So i look past the aged argument of soloing and grouping ,i have been focusing on trying to figure out why so many are even playing a rpg or better yet one with a login screen.
Then we see gamer's that love just killing mass aoe stuff without even a shred of challenge or thought put into it,they could literally get their 5 year old brother to play the game for them.
I am sure i can think of many more,seems the hand holding devs keep putting i n their games is for a solid reason,they see the type of gamer that is out there,they need their hands held.Developers should hand out lollipops after dungeon runs :pleased:
DING ...DING congratulations,that level must have really been tough to attain ...ummm yeah.Well yeah i had to run all over visiting locations to get free xp and i also did some super easy quests that i did while watching golf ,playing with the kids and eating a 3 course meal.Well yeah i can see how tough that level must have been to attain,watching golf and all while your other hand was pressing 1/2/3/1/2/3 or did you even have to make that many clicks to kill the mob/s?No i stopped at 1/2/3/1.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
if blizzard ever has a game where there are like 10k people online, be sure they will switch of the servers
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Also if developers choose not to use quest markers please, oh please make your npc's interesting to talk to.
Seeing you mentioned ES, Oblivion and Skyrims NPC were infinitely more interesting to talk to over Morrowinds. They had no personality, like talking to tourist information vending machines.
I liked the no marker thing back then but now if a game doesn't have a map or at least some general indication of where you need to go, I end up enjoying the game a lot less. I would describe as tedious. Nowadays story and engaging gameplay are more important to me. Old games with their horrible gameplay mechanics, clunky combat and horrendous map finding just don't hold up well nowadays.
Fallout 4 I loved. Fallout 3 I couldn't get into, it didn't click for me. So I guess games are not getting any less enjoyable. Skyrim was a masterpiece which surpassed even morrowind in my opinion.
Lots of games still pose a challenge. I recently started playing halo the master collection on legendary and man that's super hard. Like real hard. It's true am a halo noob but damn it's difficult. Fallout 4 on survival is no slouch either.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Most people play the slot machines...
Lots of shiny lights to draw people in.
Everywhere you go there are slot machines.
Once you sit down you don't have to move again so you can keep feeding the machines.
No clocks or windows to tell you how much time you are wasting.
Autoplay buttons so that all you need to do is put money in.
No 'skill' involved.
Guaranteed to lose money unless you get lucky.
Then you have a few tables of Roulette, Poker or Blackjack...
No flashing lights.
Bigger entry money.
Requires 'skill'.
You get rewarded through good play.
Game development has realised that the masses will play the slots even though they are wasting time and the house always wins.
Indie developers are still making poker tables.
Even Fallout 3 to be in playable state for my personal tastes - I had to spent many hours modding it in order to modify gameplay and other things so it was bearable to play. Vanilla Fallout 3 replulsed me very quickly.
Honestly I don't want to spent that much time doint it again, as it is not worth it.
Me spending so much time tinkering game to my liking does not feel right and even very heavy modding has it's limits what it can change.
Not to mention Bethesda ventures to monetize mods. Amount of mods I needed for Fallout 3 to make it somewhat playable for my tastes would propably result in somewhat around extra 150-300$ I would have to spent on them depending on their pricing.
And after that I would still end up with a game lacking in many areas/fundamental design&concepts.
PoE doesn't even come close to Diablo in terms of player population. It's a very successful game which does quite a few things better than Diablo 3, but to say it's "100x better" or "more popular" is ridiculous.
Oh, sure, the genre is making tons of money and has tons of people actively playing games.........all jumping from one title to the next. And yet, how many major titles were canceled or went into "ALL HANDS ON DECK" mode to prevent disaster in the past few years?
They've spent 10 years trying to change the core element of what made MMORPGs, MMORPGs in the 1st place. They tried to make games that appealed to far too many people who would otherwise not enjoy or not be interested in what an MMORPG is. So we all got games that in the end, no one wanted.
Looking back on SOE, I'm not so sure they actually DO "get it" I rather suspect they became arrogant thinking they would be the ones with the right formula and were going to create that elusive "WoW-Killer". Only, as we saw, the right formula isn't enough.
I won't even get into what monetization has "brought to the table".
I sure as hell would play a game for longer than a month if i liked it and it was even half decent.
-there is no skill in roulette, you have no control over the wheel, you can only choose high or low risk bets
-there is no skill in blackjack, you can't count cards anymore in most casinos because they use automatic shufflers every few minutes
the casinos that don't, have dealers who will look through the cards on the discard pile if they suspect you of counting cards, to see if you are spreading bets
if you are counting and spreading bets, you'll be asked to leave the casino, casinos have the right to kick anyone out
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Not many people did this aside from top 100 players, or even thought of it, so they removed it, that's only 1 example.
Then we could talk about MOBAs, one of the most popular genres for games atm. How many buttons do you have? 4 or 5? And sure the skillcap for most MOBAs can get ridiculously high because of how competitive the genre is, but for somebody to just jump in and start playing and doing decent, there's not much learning or time required to do that.
There's too many casual players now to make a game that has a very high learning curve. It's not the game industries fault, it's our faults for begging for it.
I think the failure has all be on the developers and their arrogance. They have produced crappy games that failed. Then turned around and blamed the player base.
Now, we are all paying for it.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Because the big open world games simply cost to muhc to take the gamble.
Also to the people who think that the LFG tool is a bad thing i am going to question if you actually played in the days before on anything but over-pop servers. Because let me tell you that sitting at a stone or being locked to a place that had a LFG chat for hours on end was... shit.
With a LFG tool there is at least the option to do other things.
People do not hang in cities/hubs because of the lfg tool... They hang there because the hub is just that.. a hub... so there is much more socialisation going on there,
This have been a good conversation