Have any of you forgotten about Planetside/Planetside 2? That is essentially RvR. NC vs TR vs Vanu. Is it TRUE RvR? I can't tell you. It's PvP. As was said, everyone's definition of PvP (hardcore or otherwise) varies.
Planetside is viewed as a massive FPS battle game. Which doesn't really fall into the category of most people who visit these forums. Fantasy based and sometimes scifi but rarely FPS. So we haven't forgotten but just don't play Planetside and honestly it compares directly to already existing RVR.
I'm feeling that the fact CU isn't hardcore in the traditional sense is why this RvR/pvp game will attract more players than games like Darkfall and MO (that and hopefully it also is a better game overall).
There is indeed an underlying effort but the devs to design in quality of life on top of an intense RvR design. They want you to enjoy the game even if getting beat hard at the realm level. They just don't want the individual player feeling abused through player level mechanics ... even if killed over and over and your castle is razed to the ground.
More hardcore death penalties (imo) are more important in realistic or hardcore pve games where progression in the main carrot ... you are penalized in the area you most care about. In RvR your contribution to your realm is the primary concern and death is an intimate part of the game. The penalty should impact the attrition of your realm and NOT simply slap the player hard. This is the primary mistake of most hardcore pvp games where death is expected and why they fail to attract players (along with not providing enough player governance over pk proliferation).
"Hardcore" aside, I'm more afraid of the neverending stream of "It's PvP only", "Zero PvE" and such, these will have much stronger negative impact. And you just can't silence them...
wouldnt touch it myself if its just a pure PvP game. Means with my eyesight and slow reactions i would not even be able to compete on an equal basis. Alias why i hate PvP in any game's (especially when PvE games have PvP content and your forced to do it to get some quests and things done),unless you get lucky or help your never going to get half the stuff done.
"Hardcore" aside, I'm more afraid of the neverending stream of "It's PvP only", "Zero PvE" and such, these will have much stronger negative impact. And you just can't silence them...
Manestream said:
wouldnt touch it myself if its just a pure PvP game. Means with my eyesight and slow reactions i would not even be able to compete on an equal basis.
Alias why i hate PvP in any game's (especially when PvE games have PvP content and your forced to do it to get some quests and things done),unless you get lucky or help your never going to get half the stuff done.
---
Guys.. mark said the game will have alot of PVE, just not the PVE we are use to. The world will be full of creatures that fit the lore and environment of each realm. Creatures will give crafting items so there will be some form of hunting and so on. There will also be the Depths that will contain PVE and more. Just remember there is ZERO progression or gear from PVE killing. There will also be many things to do to help your realm besides fighting enemy players. But PVE lorewise this game will probably have more than most straight PVE games
Speaking of napkin math, CU crossed the 25k backers mark quite some time ago - I believe it's closer to 30k (at this point - in my estimate a year and a half before launch) and will land between 40 and 50k before launch time. Based on that, those estimates of yours (even the upper one) seem quite pessimistic to me - that is, even with retention included!?
The point the I'm trying to make is... IMO this game does not need to be F2P, B2P to be successful. I suspect a small studio with ~25-50 full time staff, can easily pay the bills, pay back the investors and give original employees some equity on 25k to 50k subs AND this game can be sustainable for 5 - 10 years.
If it gets to 150K subs is should be raining money!! (or hire many more staff to support the users and their "problems" )
I don't think hardcore "crybaby" is financially viable. Even among the "crybabies" full loot is a contentious subject. Many don't want it no mater how hardcore and dedicated of a "crybaby" they are.
Every MMO has had "crybaby" rules even if it was a separate "crybaby" server, or a special opt-in "crybaby" choice. When you throw the really hardcore "crybaby" rules into the mix the servers start losing players.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Tamanous said:
I'm feeling that the fact CU isn't hardcore in the traditional sense is why this RvR/pvp game will attract more players than games like Darkfall and MO (that and hopefully it also is a better game overall).
That's basically the only reason I'm interested in CU.
I'm mainly a PvE player, not because I hate PvP, but because PvP games are usually either too shallow (no progress beyond a kill score) or too 'hardcore' (I don't want to lose days of progress because i had to go AFK for a minute and my 'friend' stabbed me in the back). It remains to be seen if CU can offer the right mix of progress (including being able to do something useful in 20-40 min blocks), meaningful loss / victory, and excitement.
I'll be honest, I'm still a little burned from WAR (though I don't entirely blame MJ for that), and never played DAOC, so my hype is tempered, but it will be interesting to see how CU shapes up over the next year or so.
Also, good article Tim, looking forward to the next one.
Speaking of napkin math, CU crossed the 25k backers mark quite some time ago - I believe it's closer to 30k (at this point - in my estimate a year and a half before launch) and will land between 40 and 50k before launch time. Based on that, those estimates of yours (even the upper one) seem quite pessimistic to me - that is, even with retention included!?
The point the I'm trying to make is... IMO this game does not need to be F2P, B2P to be successful. I suspect a small studio with ~25-50 full time staff, can easily pay the bills, pay back the investors and give original employees some equity on 25k to 50k subs AND this game can be sustainable for 5 - 10 years.
If it gets to 150K subs is should be raining money!! (or hire many more staff to support the users and their "problems" )
Ah, sorry, my fingers again did the typing (sometimes I use my head, thou on rare occasions).
I just hope its not like GW2 where each area sends their giant blob of players to go zerg the other giant blob of players that is zerging some other area trying to kill the 3rd giant blob of zergness.
I'm feeling that the fact CU isn't hardcore in the traditional sense is why this RvR/pvp game will attract more players than games like Darkfall and MO (that and hopefully it also is a better game overall).
There is indeed an underlying effort but the devs to design in quality of life on top of an intense RvR design. They want you to enjoy the game even if getting beat hard at the realm level. They just don't want the individual player feeling abused through player level mechanics ... even if killed over and over and your castle is razed to the ground.
More hardcore death penalties (imo) are more important in realistic or hardcore pve games where progression in the main carrot ... you are penalized in the area you most care about. In RvR your contribution to your realm is the primary concern and death is an intimate part of the game. The penalty should impact the attrition of your realm and NOT simply slap the player hard. This is the primary mistake of most hardcore pvp games where death is expected and why they fail to attract players (along with not providing enough player governance over pk proliferation).
"Hardcore" aside, I'm more afraid of the neverending stream of "It's PvP only", "Zero PvE" and such, these will have much stronger negative impact. And you just can't silence them...
Which will be my next column unless there is some news to cover. CU might offer more/better PVE by not offering it that we have seen other "PVE" games offer lol.
Excellent!
Allow me to suggest couple ideas (thou you likely know them very well) - 1 and 2. (hint: hyperlinks are tasty!).
Exactly. CU will me my serious more hardcore game that I live in when I play it while CF will likely be my more casual, jump in and fight game for when I have less time. Both look fun in their own ways and both have their own niche with overlap from the casual PVPers. Great time to be a MMORPG PVPer. Nods to The Repopulation, Life is Feudal, Albion Online, Revival and Gloria Victus!
Unfortunately, The Repopulation is no more. They shut down their servers over the Christmas holidays and, although they claim they may be back, I don't see it happening. RIP, Repop.
Men do not stop playing because they grow old. They grow old because they stop playing. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
Making their own engine from nothing.
intresting elements ingame like the cube system
1-1 communication with their community
They have alot of exeperience regarding balancing the pvp out..
Finally a good pvp game to look forward to.
Cu strenght will ly in cooperation and group play in pvp.. but i forsee alot of tactical elements ingame aswell like castle building and so forth
the people who invested in crowfall bet on the wrong horse :P
-------------------------------------------
Wow really? Whew, good thing I invested in both!
Lol, people just have to make games an either/or situation. They're both niche games, per the devs. I think there's room for both if they both end up being good games for the people who enjoy what they have to offer.
I just hope its not like GW2 where each area sends their giant blob of players to go zerg the other giant blob of players that is zerging some other area trying to kill the 3rd giant blob of zergness.
So you want low populations I can get that. No matter what you do a massive warfare game will end up with blobs if they have a high population. ESO did the best job because you can just sneak and let the blob run past your small group.
Are you onto something or just on something?
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Folks,
Just a few quick notes and I promise, I'll be back later today. It's been one of those weeks where I'm just being pulled in way too many directions and my ductility is not what it used to be. :)
1) On CU vs. CF - They started with the Unity Engine + Voxel Farm + plugins. Thus, they could show more stuff faster than we could. That is to be expected and there is nothing wrong with that. We started by saying we needed to build that tech in-house to reach certain goals which are different than their goals. Last month, we showed 500+ Backers and Bots happily running around a small area in battle. When ACE puts more effort into that end, I'm sure they can catch up with us on that front, and since we are putting more effort now into making the game systems and game settings, we'll catch up with them on their advantages. It should be a fun race between us over the next few years+. Both games and teams can co-exist and succeed since we are, in most ways, very different games. Should be fun and good for PvP folks of all different flavors! Wonder what flavor a Luchorpan is? :)
2) In terms of PvE, yeah, we will have plenty of PvE, but no PvE leveling (except for crafters since most crafting is essentially PvE).
3) In terms of sub numbers needed, if we get 50K subs, we'll be happy with the result. That would absolutely support the team moving forward. Now, I do think we'll get more but as always, time will tell.
As a DAoC fan I do hope that the game is more centered around rvr and not pvp. As a more casual player I will not be able to compete with the hardcore pvp crowd but I do enjoy contributing to the success of the realm.
As a DAoC fan I do hope that the game is more centered around rvr and not pvp. As a more casual player I will not be able to compete with the hardcore pvp crowd but I do enjoy contributing to the success of the realm.
If you try to explain that RvR is not PvP to the interwebz, you'll be mocked and rotten tomatoed.
That misconception is another dangerous aspect of "CU is PvP only" mantra.
Just a few quick notes and I promise, I'll be back later today. It's been one of those weeks where I'm just being pulled in way too many directions and my ductility is not what it used to be.
1) On CU vs. CF - They started with the Unity Engine + Voxel Farm + plugins. Thus, they could show more stuff faster than we could. That is to be expected and there is nothing wrong with that. We started by saying we needed to build that tech in-house to reach certain goals which are different than their goals. Last month, we showed 500+ Backers and Bots happily running around a small area in battle. When ACE puts more effort into that end, I'm sure they can catch up with us on that front, and since we are putting more effort now into making the game systems and game settings, we'll catch up with them on their advantages. It should be a fun race between us over the next few years+. Both games and teams can co-exist and succeed since we are, in most ways, very different games. Should be fun and good for PvP folks of all different flavors! Wonder what flavor a Luchorpan is?
2) In terms of PvE, yeah, we will have plenty of PvE, but no PvE leveling (except for crafters since most crafting is essentially PvE).
3) In terms of sub numbers needed, if we get 50K subs, we'll be happy with the result. That would absolutely support the team moving forward. Now, I do think we'll get more but as always, time will tell.
Thanks for posting here, good, bad or meh.
Mark
Mark's totally on target (I realize that's not breaking news), we're two teams with different goals for our games and the market has plenty of room for us both. I'll play CU *and* CF and I'm sure I'll have plenty of company. We've got our own flavor of PvE too in CF, it just doesn't get a lot play because of where our game focus is. And we'd be just as happy as Mark if we can gather 50k dedicated customers (while both of us hope to reach more).
All games compete for your time and attention, and games resonate differently for individuals, so there is no "One True Game" for everyone. I'm just glad that teams like ours and Marks' and others are a position to try new things in the MMO market because of player support, even as the publishers and investors have mostly wandered off to mobile and VR.
While it is true that there will be lots of pvp in CU, I have noticed that many have used the word epic to describe the feel of CU pvp. That is what I hope the rvr will provide. I'm hoping there will be many activities to choose from in the game that will help improve your character and/or help the realm.
I have been following this not as much as I would like to the past 6 months. I am not sure if this was made clear and I apologize if I missed this, but will it be an open world? For example will there be travel on foot, horse, ship all around the world?
Comments
Planetside is viewed as a massive FPS battle game. Which doesn't really fall into the category of most people who visit these forums. Fantasy based and sometimes scifi but rarely FPS. So we haven't forgotten but just don't play Planetside and honestly it compares directly to already existing RVR.
BTW GW2 has 80 levels now.
Alias why i hate PvP in any game's (especially when PvE games have PvP content and your forced to do it to get some quests and things done),unless you get lucky or help your never going to get half the stuff done.
Manestream said:
wouldnt touch it myself if its just a pure PvP game. Means with my eyesight and slow reactions i would not even be able to compete on an equal basis.
Alias why i hate PvP in any game's (especially when PvE games have PvP content and your forced to do it to get some quests and things done),unless you get lucky or help your never going to get half the stuff done.
--- Guys.. mark said the game will have alot of PVE, just not the PVE we are use to. The world will be full of creatures that fit the lore and environment of each realm. Creatures will give crafting items so there will be some form of hunting and so on. There will also be the Depths that will contain PVE and more. Just remember there is ZERO progression or gear from PVE killing. There will also be many things to do to help your realm besides fighting enemy players. But PVE lorewise this game will probably have more than most straight PVE games
If it gets to 150K subs is should be raining money!! (or hire many more staff to support the users and their "problems"
Every MMO has had "crybaby" rules even if it was a separate "crybaby" server, or a special opt-in "crybaby" choice. When you throw the really hardcore "crybaby" rules into the mix the servers start losing players.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I'm feeling that the fact CU isn't hardcore in the traditional sense is why this RvR/pvp game will attract more players than games like Darkfall and MO (that and hopefully it also is a better game overall).
That's basically the only reason I'm interested in CU.
I'm mainly a PvE player, not because I hate PvP, but because PvP games are usually either too shallow (no progress beyond a kill score) or too 'hardcore' (I don't want to lose days of progress because i had to go AFK for a minute and my 'friend' stabbed me in the back). It remains to be seen if CU can offer the right mix of progress (including being able to do something useful in 20-40 min blocks), meaningful loss / victory, and excitement.
I'll be honest, I'm still a little burned from WAR (though I don't entirely blame MJ for that), and never played DAOC, so my hype is tempered, but it will be interesting to see how CU shapes up over the next year or so.
Also, good article Tim, looking forward to the next one.
In that case, you made a very good estimate - Mark himself described CU "success" as "30-50K subs and 80+ on Metacritic would be great".
Allow me to suggest couple ideas (thou you likely know them very well) - 1 and 2. (hint: hyperlinks are tasty!).
~~ postlarval ~~
Hardcore PvP (full loot):
Soki123 said:
CF and CU in a race, nah. I ll just play both.
Exactly. CU will me my serious more hardcore game that I live in when I play it while CF will likely be my more casual, jump in and fight game for when I have less time. Both look fun in their own ways and both have their own niche with overlap from the casual PVPers. Great time to be a MMORPG PVPer. Nods to The Repopulation, Life is Feudal, Albion Online, Revival and Gloria Victus!
Unfortunately, The Repopulation is no more. They shut down their servers over the Christmas holidays and, although they claim they may be back, I don't see it happening. RIP, Repop.
Men do not stop playing because they grow old. They grow old because they stop playing. -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
i respect this company alot..
Making their own engine from nothing.
intresting elements ingame like the cube system
1-1 communication with their community
They have alot of exeperience regarding balancing the pvp out..
Finally a good pvp game to look forward to.
Cu strenght will ly in cooperation and group play in pvp.. but i forsee alot of tactical elements ingame aswell like castle building and so forth
the people who invested in crowfall bet on the wrong horse :P
-------------------------------------------
Wow really? Whew, good thing I invested in both!
Lol, people just have to make games an either/or situation. They're both niche games, per the devs. I think there's room for both if they both end up being good games for the people who enjoy what they have to offer.
Just a few quick notes and I promise, I'll be back later today. It's been one of those weeks where I'm just being pulled in way too many directions and my ductility is not what it used to be. :)
1) On CU vs. CF - They started with the Unity Engine + Voxel Farm + plugins. Thus, they could show more stuff faster than we could. That is to be expected and there is nothing wrong with that. We started by saying we needed to build that tech in-house to reach certain goals which are different than their goals. Last month, we showed 500+ Backers and Bots happily running around a small area in battle. When ACE puts more effort into that end, I'm sure they can catch up with us on that front, and since we are putting more effort now into making the game systems and game settings, we'll catch up with them on their advantages. It should be a fun race between us over the next few years+. Both games and teams can co-exist and succeed since we are, in most ways, very different games. Should be fun and good for PvP folks of all different flavors! Wonder what flavor a Luchorpan is? :)
2) In terms of PvE, yeah, we will have plenty of PvE, but no PvE leveling (except for crafters since most crafting is essentially PvE).
3) In terms of sub numbers needed, if we get 50K subs, we'll be happy with the result. That would absolutely support the team moving forward. Now, I do think we'll get more but as always, time will tell.
Thanks for posting here, good, bad or meh. :)
Mark
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
That misconception is another dangerous aspect of "CU is PvP only" mantra.
All games compete for your time and attention, and games resonate differently for individuals, so there is no "One True Game" for everyone. I'm just glad that teams like ours and Marks' and others are a position to try new things in the MMO market because of player support, even as the publishers and investors have mostly wandered off to mobile and VR.
I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!