oh yeah and i hate everyone can teleport everywhere too... destroyed the uniqueness of finding special items to do that, or developing a wizard that could. maybe a good mechanic could be like walking the ways and have a different element of chance or danger or a different kind of cost, something a little more dear. even star trek doesn't use the teleporter all the time, and they do use shuttles still, and well... even warp takes time.
hmm i wonder also about getting rid of the idea of leveling anyway... i mean if everything is this conflict between stupid easy and stupid hard and grindy and boring, maybe less is more.... maybe leveling should be harder nad take more time. maybe gear changing should too. maybe not have level dependent zones at all. then anywhere can be a starting place. not just a few. then you have more choices for players and chance for complexity of interactions. and instead of one place being "oh i do everything here and then move on" all places can then start have overlapping and inter-related story arcs, which can wind up taking you anywhere in the world in different order based on what choices you make in those quests. and bringing to back to places you've been, and being over powered or having already done everything are not longer issues.
So you would rather, say acquire the Sword of Doom as a level 12 dwarf killing some random rabbit that had a drop rate chance of 0.0000000000000000000000000000001% that basically was so powerful as to negate any potential drop for at least 22 expansions, than acquire new weapons as you leveled up through said expansions.
I have the Sword of Doom... I've had the Sword of Doom for 22 expansions now and it looks like it was built when 8-bit graphics was king. My friend over there has the Dagger of Insult which looks like one badass weapon and it only does 1 damage less than my weapon currently. Every weapon that he has equipped has looked cooler and cooler and always increased in power. I on the other hand have had the same boring weapon for 22 expansions because it was an extremely rare drop and it was totally OP until now.
https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/fallacies_list.html Straw Man Argument: A subtype of the red herring, this fallacy includes any lame attempt to "prove" an argument by overstating, exaggerating, or over-simplifying the arguments of the opposing side. Such an approach is building a straw man argument. The name comes from the idea of a boxer or fighter who meticulously fashions a false opponent out of straw, like a scarecrow, and then easily knocks it over in the ring before his admiring audience. His "victory" is a hollow mockery, of course, because the straw-stuffed opponent is incapable of fighting back. When a writer makes a cartoon-like caricature of the opposing argument, ignoring the real or subtle points of contention, and then proceeds to knock down each "fake" point one-by-one, he has created a straw man argument.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
While I agree with OP's general point, he is wrong about EQ. IMO, EQ started to die (in terms of vision of the game, if not subs) when it introduced the POK (Plane of Knowledge). POK was a central hub with portals everywhere. Overnight, the trade chat and presence in West Commons and Freeport died. Dead. Overland travel died, and with it the many instances of higher level players stopping to help lower level players.
Just a bad, bad design decision.
The game world must be preserved and have lasting relevance, regardless of character level. Oh, you may out-level a zone, in terms of bashing monsters, but there needs to be a reason to revisit that territory, be it trade, training, crafting, resting and re-couping, or just passing through.
In my experience, when the game world loses its relevance, the game starts to die out a bit.
Im not trying to be rude, but at what point did i ever say anything about Luclin or POP? It is well known that Velious and the time up to that point was considered the height or EQ. I even specifically referenced that. And while yes, it did start to die down in Luclin and PoP due to an increase in fast travel and such... the item relevance argument still stands. They didn't really start mudflation in EQ until way down the road.
We have other threads where we are discussing that. This thread was intended to address specifically item power increases (mudflation) and the issues surrounding it in regards to expansions and the implementation thereof.
You'll get no argument from anyone here that PoK was a bad decision.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Incredibly good observation and immensely important topic, not only for Pantheon, but for all new MMORPGs. But it requires discipline on the developers part to not add +100 HP where a simple +5 would do. Revamping the combat system where new over powered mob attacks require inflated player defense mechanisms is the surest course to Mudflation. Time and effort will favor making that item +100 instead of +5 almost every time. That's the fundamental problem with every HP based system I've ever encountered.
Thats really the issue. They need to be increasing power linearly, not exponentially.
You look at games like WoW and it was more like 10-100-1000-10000 (say hp, or damage done)
Taking an example of a monk, max hit in kunark might have been in the 70 or so range with 1h weapons or fists, whereas in velious that may be more like 80 or 90 with the best of the best, etc, and maybe you hit 10% faster, or whatever (due to dmg/delay). However, the overall power increase was maybe 20 or 25%.
WoW, a new expansion came out and mobs had 10x the hitpoints, and hit 10x harder at 70 than they did at 60. Which meant YOU had to hit 10 harder, and have 10x the hp, etc.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
I don't undestand. If the game is modeled after the original ideals of EQ why is this sort of thing even in question?
This game clearly isn't intended to be a game from the modern mold of ever increasing vertical progression with shitty shortcuts for casuals who don't know how to properly play the game and think it's something it isn't.
I don't undestand. If the game is modeled after the original ideals of EQ why is this sort of thing even in question?
This game clearly isn't intended to be a game from the modern mold of ever increasing vertical progression with shitty shortcuts for casuals who don't know how to properly play the game and think it's something it isn't.
Just because its modeled after old school games doesn't mean they won't use "modern" gearing (with item levels and procedurally generated stats, etc) in the game. It's worth discussing and not assuming. Particularly because procedurally generated gear is much less time consuming for the developer so its an easy trap to fall into.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
hmm i wonder also about getting rid of the idea of leveling anyway... i mean if everything is this conflict between stupid easy and stupid hard and grindy and boring, maybe less is more.... maybe leveling should be harder nad take more time. maybe gear changing should too. maybe not have level dependent zones at all. then anywhere can be a starting place. not just a few. then you have more choices for players and chance for complexity of interactions. and instead of one place being "oh i do everything here and then move on" all places can then start have overlapping and inter-related story arcs, which can wind up taking you anywhere in the world in different order based on what choices you make in those quests. and bringing to back to places you've been, and being over powered or having already done everything are not longer issues.
hmm?
Or take it even further. Remove levels altogether. My personal opinion is that SWG's original skillbased leveling system is by far the most enjoyable. You "level up" a skill by using it up to the point that you are mastering it. If you decide that you want to take a different path you start using another skill and "level" it up. When doing so you stop using the first skill and start to loose your mastery by simply "forgetting" how to use it with maximum proficiency.
RP-wise it is of course not perfect since it is quiestionable that you can fully "unlearn" a skill but I am sure there is a way to figure out a solution to that too.
Oh, man now I am back in SWG-nostalgia again...
As a sidenote, I didn't play EQ when it was new but am now experiencing EQ-classic on the the TL-servers and find it so refreshing that gear isn't THE thing, just a tool.
I do appreciate the value of gradiated content that doesn't invalidate previous gear immediately (this is a big problem with a lot of games that want to force you to pay for better gear, eg: Dragon Nest), but then I also enjoy that feeling when you go back to a previously difficult area and murderize everything.
Power is fun feeling, but it does need to be balanced against long term game goals, and especially needs to be balanced against the difficulty of obtaining the new power levels.
If there was some form of trade-in system, say you have +10 Epic gear from the previous expansion that you could then trade in for +3 Epic gear from the new expansion, or something like that.
@Sinmar ; yes I have usually preferred skill-based systems myself, classless, level-less. though i guess skills, and gear, and some talent or abilities need to be stat based or something. to give some sense of not everyone can be/do everything, to give some kind of balance and/or reason for anyone being/doing something.
I agree that the "treadmill" feeling has to go away, and I think there's a lot of good discussion going on here. I think EQ was good but not perfect on this front. It is really nice that when I quit with lots of good Kunark gear, and then came back two years later, that Kunark gear was still worth something -- a lot actually. This was even more the case with gear from Places like NToV and Vex Thal especially.
However, it was pretty lame when I tried to start a warrior from scratch in the PoP era. That was basically hell. Maybe some of that was just bad design via "alternate advancements," the point is this kind of a impossible curve for new players should be avoided.
I don't remember newer players (including myself) compaining much about old school players having big advantages from previous expansions because of the mass amount of work they put in. It took a long time to get Vex Thal gear, it would be pretty stupid if groups could get the same or better quality gear very easy the next expansion. We want to encourage the core loyal members to continue to play, and making their raid gear worth something the next expansion is a good way to do that.
I'd agree, but there's one major difference on the daggers though, the +75 hps, which is a big deal. Especially when each piece of gear in that Luclin expansion probably follows along a similar +hp scale improvement from Velious.
I think if Pantheon could stay away from raw stats all together, + hps/mana/endurance and stick solely to scaling hp/mana/endurance gain through stats instead using STA/INT/WIS which would be scalable by level, it would also go along way in preventing gear trivialization. EQ today has ridiculous raw hps on items. When I finally quit a couple expansions ago, it was around +2500 hps per item, but, the stats were still only at approx. +40 stamina per item (although they did add heroic stamina to push it past the hard caps).
That way, you'd still see gains each expansion, but they wouldn't be trivializing previous gear as the HP increase would be based on the increasing level cap which would allow for a higher STA cap and also the HP gains from the levels themselves. I'd also make Pantheon where it would be impossible to ever hit the stat caps and make your starting race selections and gear choices more meaningful.
I'd agree, but there's one major difference on the daggers though, the +75 hps, which is a big deal. Especially when each piece of gear in that Luclin expansion probably follows along a similar +hp scale improvement from Velious.
I think if Pantheon could stay away from raw stats all together, + hps/mana/endurance and stick solely to scaling hp/mana/endurance gain through stats instead using STA/INT/WIS which would be scalable by level, it would also go along way in preventing gear trivialization. EQ today has ridiculous raw hps on items. When I finally quit a couple expansions ago, it was around +2500 hps per item, but, the stats were still only at approx. +40 stamina per item (although they did add heroic stamina to push it past the hard caps).
That way, you'd still see gains each expansion, but they wouldn't be trivializing previous gear as the HP increase would be based on the increasing level cap which would allow for a higher STA cap and also the HP gains from the levels themselves. I'd also make Pantheon where it would be impossible to ever hit the stat caps and make your starting race selections and gear choices more meaningful.
I hear where you're coming from. But I think mudflation is one of those things you just have to accept is going to happen. What we don't want to do is ADD to it, i.e. make it worse than its already going to be.
I think EQ did a reasonably good job up to velious and sorta kinda started the ball rolling too fast down the hill in Luclin. Particularly the worse thing they did was to make mobs have millions of HP instead of 10's of thousands. This then constituted an equal increase in DPS to make up for the MOB HP (although luclin raid bosses could take a stupid amount of time to actually bring down).
WoW's problem was that blizzard has this "Powerful is FUN!" attitude, which to an extent is true, but its like hard drugs, its fun for a brief period, but then its bad, very bad, and you have to keep getting the fix to keep up the high). Combine that with their "reset the game every expansion to keep the ultra casual robin hood mentality people happy" approach just created completely ridiculous mudflation. I would joke that eventually they're going to have to start using scientific notation to show your dmg because otherwise they'd have a string of numbers across your screen.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Hrimnir said: I hear where you're coming from. But I think mudflation is one of those things you just have to accept is going to happen. What we don't want to do is ADD to it, i.e. make it worse than its already going to be.
I think EQ did a reasonably good job up to velious and sorta kinda started the ball rolling too fast down the hill in Luclin. Particularly the worse thing they did was to make mobs have millions of HP instead of 10's of thousands. This then constituted an equal increase in DPS to make up for the MOB HP (although luclin raid bosses could take a stupid amount of time to actually bring down).
WoW's problem was that blizzard has this "Powerful is FUN!" attitude, which to an extent is true, but its like hard drugs, its fun for a brief period, but then its bad, very bad, and you have to keep getting the fix to keep up the high). Combine that with their "reset the game every expansion to keep the ultra casual robin hood mentality people happy" approach just created completely ridiculous mudflation. I would joke that eventually they're going to have to start using scientific notation to show your dmg because otherwise they'd have a string of numbers across your screen.
I tried to multiquote you, but this site is a PITA and the formatting wasn't working for me. So, I'll just number your paragraphs instead.
1. I agree 100% that you can't stop mudflation, but I think you could slow it to the point it wouldn't be nearly as damaging and still make meaningful gains. I'll use HPs/STA as my example.
If EQ would have had a default STA set at 1000 versus 255 (to plan for a 20+ year lifespan), there could be meaningful gains still using only stats, the difference being, the gains would be incremental versus exponential like you stated in your last point.
So, for HPs, for each expansion, you would gain the HPs per level, and the STA boost from the gear improvements. And, to demonstrate the idea, I'll use bogus numbers and a warrior for my example.
Let's assume the best gear at Launch gave 100 sta. Then, Kunark gave 150 sta, then Velious 200. And, for the sake of easy math, let's say the warrior averaged +10 hps per level 1-50 from sta. Then, at Kunark, they'd gain an extra 500 hps from the sta and let's say 50 per level (10 levels) for a total of 1000 hps (max level 60).
Where you could make differences is how you scale the stamina gains if that didn't seem impactful enough. 1-50 might only equal 10 hps per, where 51-60 might give 20+. However, if you start using raw stats (like +75 hps), they would be harder to manage, but scaling through attributes would be much easier to control.
And, another side benefit of only having attributes (like STA) on gear is it controls twinking as an item with 10 STA at level 1 won't give nearly as much as a level 50; whereas, if a player had a +100 hp item, they'd receive it all. So, it's also a realistic way to implement recommended levels on gear.
I think a possible solution to the OPs mentioned dilemma is to have upgrade gems. Applying one of these to a piece of raid garnered gear splits the gap between where the piece was and what they would get from one of the latest raids. Using a 2nd upgrade gem splits the gap again, making the piece better and better. Because the gem splits the gap, the older gear will never completely catch up, but the player has the ability to get his gear close to the new standard. These gems would only work on raid acquired gear, so they don't become an exploit to take average equipment and make it almost as good as the raid gear without doing any raiding!
This would make it worthwhile to go into 'outdated' raids. This keeps old gear relevant, but still means you need to do the latest raids to get the best gear. These gems could be extremely rare drops in instances and a bit more frequent in dungeons.
Upgrade gems would do nothing, btw, until the new gear has been found on the server. Until the new standard is found, how can you know what is needed to split the difference?
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
1. I agree 100% that you can't stop mudflation, but I think you could slow it to the point it wouldn't be nearly as damaging and still make meaningful gains. I'll use HPs/STA as my example.
If EQ would have had a default STA set at 1000 versus 255 (to plan for a 20+ year lifespan), there could be meaningful gains still using only stats, the difference being, the gains would be incremental versus exponential like you stated in your last point.
So, for HPs, for each expansion, you would gain the HPs per level, and the STA boost from the gear improvements. And, to demonstrate the idea, I'll use bogus numbers and a warrior for my example.
Let's assume the best gear at Launch gave 100 sta. Then, Kunark gave 150 sta, then Velious 200. And, for the sake of easy math, let's say the warrior averaged +10 hps per level 1-50 from sta. Then, at Kunark, they'd gain an extra 500 hps from the sta and let's say 50 per level (10 levels) for a total of 1000 hps (max level 60).
Where you could make differences is how you scale the stamina gains if that didn't seem impactful enough. 1-50 might only equal 10 hps per, where 51-60 might give 20+. However, if you start using raw stats (like +75 hps), they would be harder to manage, but scaling through attributes would be much easier to control.
I don't necessarily think that +hp vs sta is the main issue, i think the main issue is not just getting too heavy handed with it, and keeping it in check, so to speak. An item can have say 10str 5sta, 10hp. Maybe the next item is 12str 7sta, 15hp. Or whatever. The issue is not to go from 10str 5sta 10hp, to 12str 7sta, 50hp, then 15str 10sta 125hp, etc etc etc. Also, commit to and never move from pre set limitations. I.e. only chest slots and leg slots can have + raw hp/mana or whatever. That combats the slippery slope issue.
Really though, i think it just honestly comes down to not falling into the Blizzard trap of trying to equate fun with always being captain badass and subsequently making it so the numbers have to get exponentially bigger each expansion.
Expansions have to be viewed as just that, an expansion, not a reset. Blizzard viewed expansions more as WoW 1.0 to 2.0 to 3.0, vs EQ being EQ 1.0 to 1.1 to 1.2, etc. The base game is still the same, you're just extending the content on its natural original course, rather than setting an all new course that's seperate from the original course.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Or take it even further. Remove levels altogether. My personal opinion is that SWG's original skillbased leveling system is by far the most enjoyable. You "level up" a skill by using it up to the point that you are mastering it. If you decide that you want to take a different path you start using another skill and "level" it up. When doing so you stop using the first skill and start to loose your mastery by simply "forgetting" how to use it with maximum proficiency.
RP-wise it is of course not perfect since it is quiestionable that you can fully "unlearn" a skill but I am sure there is a way to figure out a solution to that too.
Oh, man now I am back in SWG-nostalgia again...
As a sidenote, I didn't play EQ when it was new but am now experiencing EQ-classic on the the TL-servers and find it so refreshing that gear isn't THE thing, just a tool.
Have a nice day!
Agreed. I truly think levels are the problem. If you have levels, you will have strict vertical progression which inevitably leads to making older lower level content irrelevant. You can slow it down but over the course of time, that's what happens.
Progession should be skill based and every character should cap out a maximum number of total skill points. I never played UO but I believe that was the case there. If you stop using your skill, it degrades but there's a minimum point so it doesn't go to zero (unless there's a respec that you want to do). It allows your character to change and you never become overpowering since you are capped out by your total skill points.
I also think how loot is itemized is wrong. Make loot have specific functions. There shouldn't be a sword that does everything best. There should be different weapons for different tasks. Tactical and strategic planning becomes more of a factor since you will want the right tools for the right monster.
Or take it even further. Remove levels altogether. My personal opinion is that SWG's original skillbased leveling system is by far the most enjoyable. You "level up" a skill by using it up to the point that you are mastering it. If you decide that you want to take a different path you start using another skill and "level" it up. When doing so you stop using the first skill and start to loose your mastery by simply "forgetting" how to use it with maximum proficiency.
RP-wise it is of course not perfect since it is quiestionable that you can fully "unlearn" a skill but I am sure there is a way to figure out a solution to that too.
Oh, man now I am back in SWG-nostalgia again...
As a sidenote, I didn't play EQ when it was new but am now experiencing EQ-classic on the the TL-servers and find it so refreshing that gear isn't THE thing, just a tool.
Have a nice day!
Agreed. I truly think levels are the problem. If you have levels, you will have strict vertical progression which inevitably leads to making older lower level content irrelevant. You can slow it down but over the course of time, that's what happens.
Progession should be skill based and every character should cap out a maximum number of total skill points. I never played UO but I believe that was the case there. If you stop using your skill, it degrades but there's a minimum point so it doesn't go to zero (unless there's a respec that you want to do). It allows your character to change and you never become overpowering since you are capped out by your total skill points.
I also think how loot is itemized is wrong. Make loot have specific functions. There shouldn't be a sword that does everything best. There should be different weapons for different tasks. Tactical and strategic planning becomes more of a factor since you will want the right tools for the right monster.
There are so many drawbacks to skill point system of character development. The main one is that its incredibly hard to balance, and has mostly sucked in every game it existed. It also makes progression feel superficial. Sure you get new abilities, but for your time spent, they mostly give you more utility rather than power. While I don't think its impossible to create a point system that yields a diverse array of builds that are both unique and powerful, history shows its highly problematic.
In a PvP game where you want to keep players on a relatively level playing field, it can be useful. In a game designed around PvE, you must gate content behind levels by increasing the strength of mobs. Trying to balance that without levels would be (and has been) a nightmare. You end up with players banding together and steamrolling harder content because without levels, its not that much harder. The result is the same thing you were trying to prevent: players mostly focusing on the harder content as they would via levels.
Besides those things, you always end up with min/max builds in the point system. In UO for instance, you had mages and dexers. So many people played with almost the same build out. It was the same problem in Darkfall, which was exacerbated even further by a lack of a point cap. As a result, combat becomes a clone war and very stale. Theres far more interdependence and strategy with specific classes.
Regarding specific weapons and equipment for a specific fight, that should definitely be a thing. From what we've heard about Pantheon, they are designing the game around situational gear.
I agree pretty much with your last point. The only benefit I would argue that adding only Attributes to gear and not Raw stats like HPs (even if it's only a few pieces) is to help combat twinking trivializing early combat without having to add required/recommended levels to gear. Like.. having a pair of 5 ac 55 hp rings on EQ made a huge difference. If they were 5 ac 5 sta, they wouldn't have been nearly as good.
While I agree with OP's general point, he is wrong about EQ. IMO, EQ started to die (in terms of vision of the game, if not subs) when it introduced the POK (Plane of Knowledge). POK was a central hub with portals everywhere. Overnight, the trade chat and presence in West Commons and Freeport died. Dead. Overland travel died, and with it the many instances of higher level players stopping to help lower level players.
Just a bad, bad design decision.
The game world must be preserved and have lasting relevance, regardless of character level. Oh, you may out-level a zone, in terms of bashing monsters, but there needs to be a reason to revisit that territory, be it trade, training, crafting, resting and re-couping, or just passing through.
In my experience, when the game world loses its relevance, the game starts to die out a bit.
This is a bit of an of a lie, trade in the commons didn't die over night for the simple fact the nexus was a laggy mess so many still carried on trading in the commons. As a wizard i did lose a nice little income and i'm sure druids felt the same dent in there little earner.
There was still plenty of higher level players helping low level players, u still needed help with corpse runs and buffs so that is over the top. Look i'm not saying the game didn't change but that change was an advancement. I didn't mind Luclin because i wanted to play a Val Shir beasty.
Also i didn't mind POP and the game certainty didn't die over night.
It was WOW and perhaps EQ2 that started the slow demise of EQ.
The stats I linked are probably wrong in the first one. It isn't always a simple matter of just looking up the item, because in EQ items were changed over the vast amount of time the game had been out. EQ always did have more tendency to revamp old content compared to new MMOs. I don't think my first link of the Velious dagger with no HPs is correct, because the dagger currently has hp on p99 (they aren't always 100% -- but they base their info off something). Here is a straight modern link of both daggers:
Mrylokar's Dagger of Vengeance MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE PLACEABLE
Slot: RANGE PRIMARY SECONDARY
Skill: Piercing Atk Delay: 19
DMG: 15 Dmg Bonus: 26 AC: 15
Backstab DMG: 15
This item is placeable in yards, guild yards, houses and guild halls.
Skill Mod: Backstab +12% (34 Max)
STR: +15 DEX: +10 STA: +5 AGI: +10 HP: +100
SV FIRE: +10 SV DISEASE: +10 SV COLD: +10 SV MAGIC: +10 SV POISON: +10
Required level of 55.
Effect: Feast of Blood (Combat, Casting Time: Instant)
WT: 1.0 Size: TINY
Class: ROG
Race: ALL
Bloodbath MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE PLACEABLE
Slot: PRIMARY SECONDARY
Skill: Piercing Atk Delay: 21
DMG: 16 Dmg Bonus: 26
Backstab DMG: 16
This item is placeable in yards, guild yards, houses and guild halls.
Skill Mod: Backstab +12% (34 Max)
STR: +15 DEX: +10 STA: +5 HP: +100 ENDUR: +75
SV MAGIC: +20
Attack: +25 HP Regen +2
Required level of 60.
Effect: Blood Bath (Worn, Casting Time: Instant)
WT: 1.0 Size: MEDIUM
Class: ROG
Race: ALL
A better example might be Robes. In Kunark, the Robe of Azure Sky was the BiS for robe classes:
Robe of the Azure Sky MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: CHEST
AC: 18
WIS: +20 INT: +20 HP: +85 MANA: +100
SV FIRE: +15 SV DISEASE: +15 SV COLD: +15 SV MAGIC: +15 SV POISON: +15
WT: 0.5 Size: MEDIUM
Class: ALL
Race: HUM ERU HIE DEF GNM IKS
This is not nearly as good as the best caster robe in Velious:
Sal`Varae`s Robe of Darkness MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: CHEST
AC: 60
STR: +15 DEX: +15 STA: +25 CHA: +25 WIS: +25 INT: +25 AGI: +25 HP: +100 MANA: +100
SV FIRE: +15 SV DISEASE: +15 SV COLD: +15 SV MAGIC: +15 SV POISON: +15
Effect: Flowing Thought III
WT: 1.0 Size: TINY
Class: CLR NEC WIZ MAG ENC
Race: HUM ERU HIE DEF GNM IKS
But still better than the run of the mill raid robe in Velious:
Robe of Icicles MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Slot: CHEST
AC: 12
STR: +2 STA: +15 INT: +15 HP: +60 MANA: +90
SV FIRE: +5 SV DISEASE: +5 SV COLD: +10 SV MAGIC: +10 SV POISON: +5
Effect: Enticement of Flame (Any Slot/Can Equip, Casting Time: 24.0)
WT: 0.5 Size: MEDIUM
Class: WIZ
Race: HUM ERU HIE DEF GNM
EQ never made the group content of the new expansion displace old raid content from the previous expansion. Furthermore, they didn't even allow lower end raid gear in the new expansion to always replace higher end raid gear of the previous expansion. This made the fruits of your effort last a long time.
I'm also a fan of giving minor ascetic perks to those who first defeat raid content (their weapons are called "Primal" rather than "Prismatic" etc). But I'm not a huge fan of the sleepers tomb mechanic that let some players get BiS gear that disappeared when the sleeper awoken.
Or take it even further. Remove levels altogether. My personal opinion is that SWG's original skillbased leveling system is by far the most enjoyable. You "level up" a skill by using it up to the point that you are mastering it. If you decide that you want to take a different path you start using another skill and "level" it up. When doing so you stop using the first skill and start to loose your mastery by simply "forgetting" how to use it with maximum proficiency.
RP-wise it is of course not perfect since it is quiestionable that you can fully "unlearn" a skill but I am sure there is a way to figure out a solution to that too.
Oh, man now I am back in SWG-nostalgia again...
As a sidenote, I didn't play EQ when it was new but am now experiencing EQ-classic on the the TL-servers and find it so refreshing that gear isn't THE thing, just a tool.
Have a nice day!
Agreed. I truly think levels are the problem. If you have levels, you will have strict vertical progression which inevitably leads to making older lower level content irrelevant. You can slow it down but over the course of time, that's what happens.
Progession should be skill based and every character should cap out a maximum number of total skill points. I never played UO but I believe that was the case there. If you stop using your skill, it degrades but there's a minimum point so it doesn't go to zero (unless there's a respec that you want to do). It allows your character to change and you never become overpowering since you are capped out by your total skill points.
I also think how loot is itemized is wrong. Make loot have specific functions. There shouldn't be a sword that does everything best. There should be different weapons for different tasks. Tactical and strategic planning becomes more of a factor since you will want the right tools for the right monster.
Ok, so please keep in mind, I'm not intending to be rude to your personally with the following.
That being said, I'm utterly and completely sick of the "levels are the problem" argument. Skills are levels. It's simple fact. If you do more damage when you have 200 1h weapon skill than when you have 0, you're effectively level 200 vs level 0.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
I agree, somewhat. When a game ages like EQ, the content from 17 years ago is going to be invalidated. It has to happen. However, using EQ as an example the power jump from expansion to expansion was on the ridiculous side. It definitely could have been a more gradual curve.
I actually thought WoW did it close to perfect. There were large power jumps, but everyone gained in power. No one was left behind struggling with new content, because they weren't in a raiding guild. WoW's expansions are released slow enough were you can enjoy the game before the next big jump. EQ went stupid for awhile releaseing content every few months for many years. Making people fall behind what was already a very unforgiving play experience.
This was no more apparent to me than the day I played the Rift Storm Legion expansion. After 10 hours, half of my raid gear was trash, not even salvageable for useful craft components, and the old continent was all but deserted. It really made it seem like everything done up to that point was a waste of time. It was basically a full wipe/restart as far as gear progression. That's a frustrating game design.
What was frustrating? You raided, because you enjoyed raiding. Did you not? Are you frustrated, because momentarily you were on par with everyone else? Well, then raid again. That is what a raiding MMO is about. Not sure where the disconnect is. The problem to me would have been if your raid gear would have "set the bar" for group content. Like EQ did. And absolutely destroyed the game for non-raiders who were not geared enough to handle the new content. What happened to EQ's population after they shoved "raid or bust" down everyone's throat? The moved to WoW, and never looked back. It makes perfect sense to give people the tools, and reset gear for each expansion. You may not like it, because you're reset. But, that is the nature of a raiding game. Its not to always be on top of the other guy. Its to defeat the expansion.
Comments
hmm?
Straw Man Argument: A subtype of the red herring, this fallacy includes any lame attempt to "prove" an argument by overstating, exaggerating, or over-simplifying the arguments of the opposing side. Such an approach is building a straw man argument. The name comes from the idea of a boxer or fighter who meticulously fashions a false opponent out of straw, like a scarecrow, and then easily knocks it over in the ring before his admiring audience. His "victory" is a hollow mockery, of course, because the straw-stuffed opponent is incapable of fighting back. When a writer makes a cartoon-like caricature of the opposing argument, ignoring the real or subtle points of contention, and then proceeds to knock down each "fake" point one-by-one, he has created a straw man argument.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
We have other threads where we are discussing that. This thread was intended to address specifically item power increases (mudflation) and the issues surrounding it in regards to expansions and the implementation thereof.
You'll get no argument from anyone here that PoK was a bad decision.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Thats really the issue. They need to be increasing power linearly, not exponentially.
You look at games like WoW and it was more like 10-100-1000-10000 (say hp, or damage done)
Taking an example of a monk, max hit in kunark might have been in the 70 or so range with 1h weapons or fists, whereas in velious that may be more like 80 or 90 with the best of the best, etc, and maybe you hit 10% faster, or whatever (due to dmg/delay). However, the overall power increase was maybe 20 or 25%.
WoW, a new expansion came out and mobs had 10x the hitpoints, and hit 10x harder at 70 than they did at 60. Which meant YOU had to hit 10 harder, and have 10x the hp, etc.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
This game clearly isn't intended to be a game from the modern mold of ever increasing vertical progression with shitty shortcuts for casuals who don't know how to properly play the game and think it's something it isn't.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
RP-wise it is of course not perfect since it is quiestionable that you can fully "unlearn" a skill but I am sure there is a way to figure out a solution to that too.
Oh, man now I am back in SWG-nostalgia again...
As a sidenote, I didn't play EQ when it was new but am now experiencing EQ-classic on the the TL-servers and find it so refreshing that gear isn't THE thing, just a tool.
Have a nice day!
Power is fun feeling, but it does need to be balanced against long term game goals, and especially needs to be balanced against the difficulty of obtaining the new power levels.
If there was some form of trade-in system, say you have +10 Epic gear from the previous expansion that you could then trade in for +3 Epic gear from the new expansion, or something like that.
@Sinmar ; yes I have usually preferred skill-based systems myself, classless, level-less. though i guess skills, and gear, and some talent or abilities need to be stat based or something. to give some sense of not everyone can be/do everything, to give some kind of balance and/or reason for anyone being/doing something.
However, it was pretty lame when I tried to start a warrior from scratch in the PoP era. That was basically hell. Maybe some of that was just bad design via "alternate advancements," the point is this kind of a impossible curve for new players should be avoided.
I don't remember newer players (including myself) compaining much about old school players having big advantages from previous expansions because of the mass amount of work they put in. It took a long time to get Vex Thal gear, it would be pretty stupid if groups could get the same or better quality gear very easy the next expansion. We want to encourage the core loyal members to continue to play, and making their raid gear worth something the next expansion is a good way to do that.
Bloodbath
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE PLACEABLE
Slot: PRIMARY SECONDARY
Skill: Piercing Atk Delay: 22
DMG: 16
Skill Mod: Backstab +12% (34 Max)
STR: +15 DEX: +10 STA: +5 HP: +75
SV MAGIC: +20
Effect: Blood Bath (Worn, Casting Time: Instant)
WT: 1.0 Size: MEDIUM
Class: ROG
Race: ALL
vs
Best Velious Dagger:
Mrylokar's Dagger of Vengeance
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE PLACEABLE
Slot: RANGE PRIMARY SECONDARY
Skill: Piercing Atk Delay: 19
DMG: 15 Dmg Bonus: 26 AC: 15
Backstab DMG: 15
This item is placeable in yards, guild yards, houses and guild halls.
Skill Mod: Backstab +12% (34 Max)
STR: +15 DEX: +10 STA: +5 AGI: +10
SV FIRE: +10 SV DISEASE: +10 SV COLD: +10 SV MAGIC: +10 SV POISON: +10
Required level of 55.
Effect: Feast of Blood (Combat, Casting Time: Instant)
Somehow EQ managed to introduce new and better raid content that didn't trivialize previous raid content.
@Jurisdictum
I'd agree, but there's one major difference on the daggers though, the +75 hps, which is a big deal. Especially when each piece of gear in that Luclin expansion probably follows along a similar +hp scale improvement from Velious.
I think if Pantheon could stay away from raw stats all together, + hps/mana/endurance and stick solely to scaling hp/mana/endurance gain through stats instead using STA/INT/WIS which would be scalable by level, it would also go along way in preventing gear trivialization. EQ today has ridiculous raw hps on items. When I finally quit a couple expansions ago, it was around +2500 hps per item, but, the stats were still only at approx. +40 stamina per item (although they did add heroic stamina to push it past the hard caps).
That way, you'd still see gains each expansion, but they wouldn't be trivializing previous gear as the HP increase would be based on the increasing level cap which would allow for a higher STA cap and also the HP gains from the levels themselves. I'd also make Pantheon where it would be impossible to ever hit the stat caps and make your starting race selections and gear choices more meaningful.
I hear where you're coming from. But I think mudflation is one of those things you just have to accept is going to happen. What we don't want to do is ADD to it, i.e. make it worse than its already going to be.
I think EQ did a reasonably good job up to velious and sorta kinda started the ball rolling too fast down the hill in Luclin. Particularly the worse thing they did was to make mobs have millions of HP instead of 10's of thousands. This then constituted an equal increase in DPS to make up for the MOB HP (although luclin raid bosses could take a stupid amount of time to actually bring down).
WoW's problem was that blizzard has this "Powerful is FUN!" attitude, which to an extent is true, but its like hard drugs, its fun for a brief period, but then its bad, very bad, and you have to keep getting the fix to keep up the high). Combine that with their "reset the game every expansion to keep the ultra casual robin hood mentality people happy" approach just created completely ridiculous mudflation. I would joke that eventually they're going to have to start using scientific notation to show your dmg because otherwise they'd have a string of numbers across your screen.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I tried to multiquote you, but this site is a PITA and the formatting wasn't working for me. So, I'll just number your paragraphs instead.
1. I agree 100% that you can't stop mudflation, but I think you could slow it to the point it wouldn't be nearly as damaging and still make meaningful gains. I'll use HPs/STA as my example.
If EQ would have had a default STA set at 1000 versus 255 (to plan for a 20+ year lifespan), there could be meaningful gains still using only stats, the difference being, the gains would be incremental versus exponential like you stated in your last point.
So, for HPs, for each expansion, you would gain the HPs per level, and the STA boost from the gear improvements. And, to demonstrate the idea, I'll use bogus numbers and a warrior for my example.
Let's assume the best gear at Launch gave 100 sta. Then, Kunark gave 150 sta, then Velious 200. And, for the sake of easy math, let's say the warrior averaged +10 hps per level 1-50 from sta. Then, at Kunark, they'd gain an extra 500 hps from the sta and let's say 50 per level (10 levels) for a total of 1000 hps (max level 60).
Where you could make differences is how you scale the stamina gains if that didn't seem impactful enough. 1-50 might only equal 10 hps per, where 51-60 might give 20+. However, if you start using raw stats (like +75 hps), they would be harder to manage, but scaling through attributes would be much easier to control.
______________________________________________________________________
2. I agree, and I'd scale DPS similarly to how I described the HPs. Where the gains would be incremental rather than exponential.
_______________________________________________________________________
3. I agree, and, while I enjoyed twinking in EQ, I definitely don't enjoy the gear treadmill for a main character each expansion.
_______________________________________________________________________
And, another side benefit of only having attributes (like STA) on gear is it controls twinking as an item with 10 STA at level 1 won't give nearly as much as a level 50; whereas, if a player had a +100 hp item, they'd receive it all. So, it's also a realistic way to implement recommended levels on gear.
This would make it worthwhile to go into 'outdated' raids. This keeps old gear relevant, but still means you need to do the latest raids to get the best gear. These gems could be extremely rare drops in instances and a bit more frequent in dungeons.
Upgrade gems would do nothing, btw, until the new gear has been found on the server. Until the new standard is found, how can you know what is needed to split the difference?
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
Really though, i think it just honestly comes down to not falling into the Blizzard trap of trying to equate fun with always being captain badass and subsequently making it so the numbers have to get exponentially bigger each expansion.
Expansions have to be viewed as just that, an expansion, not a reset. Blizzard viewed expansions more as WoW 1.0 to 2.0 to 3.0, vs EQ being EQ 1.0 to 1.1 to 1.2, etc. The base game is still the same, you're just extending the content on its natural original course, rather than setting an all new course that's seperate from the original course.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Progession should be skill based and every character should cap out a maximum number of total skill points. I never played UO but I believe that was the case there. If you stop using your skill, it degrades but there's a minimum point so it doesn't go to zero (unless there's a respec that you want to do). It allows your character to change and you never become overpowering since you are capped out by your total skill points.
I also think how loot is itemized is wrong. Make loot have specific functions. There shouldn't be a sword that does everything best. There should be different weapons for different tasks. Tactical and strategic planning becomes more of a factor since you will want the right tools for the right monster.
In a PvP game where you want to keep players on a relatively level playing field, it can be useful. In a game designed around PvE, you must gate content behind levels by increasing the strength of mobs. Trying to balance that without levels would be (and has been) a nightmare. You end up with players banding together and steamrolling harder content because without levels, its not that much harder. The result is the same thing you were trying to prevent: players mostly focusing on the harder content as they would via levels.
Besides those things, you always end up with min/max builds in the point system. In UO for instance, you had mages and dexers. So many people played with almost the same build out. It was the same problem in Darkfall, which was exacerbated even further by a lack of a point cap. As a result, combat becomes a clone war and very stale. Theres far more interdependence and strategy with specific classes.
Regarding specific weapons and equipment for a specific fight, that should definitely be a thing. From what we've heard about Pantheon, they are designing the game around situational gear.
I agree pretty much with your last point. The only benefit I would argue that adding only Attributes to gear and not Raw stats like HPs (even if it's only a few pieces) is to help combat twinking trivializing early combat without having to add required/recommended levels to gear. Like.. having a pair of 5 ac 55 hp rings on EQ made a huge difference. If they were 5 ac 5 sta, they wouldn't have been nearly as good.
There was still plenty of higher level players helping low level players, u still needed help with corpse runs and buffs so that is over the top. Look i'm not saying the game didn't change but that change was an advancement. I didn't mind Luclin because i wanted to play a Val Shir beasty.
Also i didn't mind POP and the game certainty didn't die over night.
It was WOW and perhaps EQ2 that started the slow demise of EQ.
Mrylokar's Dagger of Vengeance
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE PLACEABLE
Slot: RANGE PRIMARY SECONDARY
Skill: Piercing Atk Delay: 19
DMG: 15 Dmg Bonus: 26 AC: 15
Backstab DMG: 15
This item is placeable in yards, guild yards, houses and guild halls.
Skill Mod: Backstab +12% (34 Max)
STR: +15 DEX: +10 STA: +5 AGI: +10 HP: +100
SV FIRE: +10 SV DISEASE: +10 SV COLD: +10 SV MAGIC: +10 SV POISON: +10
Required level of 55.
Effect: Feast of Blood (Combat, Casting Time: Instant)
WT: 1.0 Size: TINY
Class: ROG
Race: ALL
Bloodbath
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE PLACEABLE
Slot: PRIMARY SECONDARY
Skill: Piercing Atk Delay: 21
DMG: 16 Dmg Bonus: 26
Backstab DMG: 16
This item is placeable in yards, guild yards, houses and guild halls.
Skill Mod: Backstab +12% (34 Max)
STR: +15 DEX: +10 STA: +5 HP: +100 ENDUR: +75
SV MAGIC: +20
Attack: +25 HP Regen +2
Required level of 60.
Effect: Blood Bath (Worn, Casting Time: Instant)
WT: 1.0 Size: MEDIUM
Class: ROG
Race: ALL
A better example might be Robes. In Kunark, the Robe of Azure Sky was the BiS for robe classes:
Robe of the Azure Sky
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: CHEST
AC: 18
WIS: +20 INT: +20 HP: +85 MANA: +100
SV FIRE: +15 SV DISEASE: +15 SV COLD: +15 SV MAGIC: +15 SV POISON: +15
WT: 0.5 Size: MEDIUM
Class: ALL
Race: HUM ERU HIE DEF GNM IKS
This is not nearly as good as the best caster robe in Velious:
Sal`Varae`s Robe of Darkness
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: CHEST
AC: 60
STR: +15 DEX: +15 STA: +25 CHA: +25 WIS: +25 INT: +25 AGI: +25 HP: +100 MANA: +100
SV FIRE: +15 SV DISEASE: +15 SV COLD: +15 SV MAGIC: +15 SV POISON: +15
Effect: Flowing Thought III
WT: 1.0 Size: TINY
Class: CLR NEC WIZ MAG ENC
Race: HUM ERU HIE DEF GNM IKS
But still better than the run of the mill raid robe in Velious:
Robe of Icicles
MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Slot: CHEST
AC: 12
STR: +2 STA: +15 INT: +15 HP: +60 MANA: +90
SV FIRE: +5 SV DISEASE: +5 SV COLD: +10 SV MAGIC: +10 SV POISON: +5
Effect: Enticement of Flame (Any Slot/Can Equip, Casting Time: 24.0)
WT: 0.5 Size: MEDIUM
Class: WIZ
Race: HUM ERU HIE DEF GNM
EQ never made the group content of the new expansion displace old raid content from the previous expansion. Furthermore, they didn't even allow lower end raid gear in the new expansion to always replace higher end raid gear of the previous expansion. This made the fruits of your effort last a long time.
I'm also a fan of giving minor ascetic perks to those who first defeat raid content (their weapons are called "Primal" rather than "Prismatic" etc). But I'm not a huge fan of the sleepers tomb mechanic that let some players get BiS gear that disappeared when the sleeper awoken.
Ok, so please keep in mind, I'm not intending to be rude to your personally with the following.
That being said, I'm utterly and completely sick of the "levels are the problem" argument. Skills are levels. It's simple fact. If you do more damage when you have 200 1h weapon skill than when you have 0, you're effectively level 200 vs level 0.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I actually thought WoW did it close to perfect. There were large power jumps, but everyone gained in power. No one was left behind struggling with new content, because they weren't in a raiding guild. WoW's expansions are released slow enough were you can enjoy the game before the next big jump. EQ went stupid for awhile releaseing content every few months for many years. Making people fall behind what was already a very unforgiving play experience.
What was frustrating? You raided, because you enjoyed raiding. Did you not? Are you frustrated, because momentarily you were on par with everyone else? Well, then raid again. That is what a raiding MMO is about. Not sure where the disconnect is. The problem to me would have been if your raid gear would have "set the bar" for group content. Like EQ did. And absolutely destroyed the game for non-raiders who were not geared enough to handle the new content. What happened to EQ's population after they shoved "raid or bust" down everyone's throat? The moved to WoW, and never looked back. It makes perfect sense to give people the tools, and reset gear for each expansion. You may not like it, because you're reset. But, that is the nature of a raiding game. Its not to always be on top of the other guy. Its to defeat the expansion.