Arkade99 said:
Paying real world money should never be an alternative to playing the game. Whether you want to call that P2W or not is irrelevant. Everything gained/achieved in game should be earned in game.
well, if you are not being charged for the product up front then I think its reasonable to expect things within the game to cost something. The game did cost money to make, and was made with at least some expectation of turning a profit.
One thing to note in all these free games. If you are not being charged for the product. You are the product being sold. This is especially true in cash shop games. They sell your information and cookie you to death. They can tell every site you visit and sell that information to everyone. Trust me after working that end of the Industry the money made from marketing your information runs into the hundreds of millions.
I consider P2W an expression that's used to describe a game in which you dislike what can be obtained in-game using IRL money. It varies between people where they draw the line for what they consider acceptable.
One of the biggest draws of MMORPGs for me is when who you are in-game is a result of your actions in-game. In my ideal MMORPG nothing can be bought using real life money, I can accept cosmetic items and in some cases bank slots being obtainable with IRL money depending on the implementation but I can understand people who are against that as well.
One example of P2W that I found particularly disgusting, and well disguised, was in Guild Wars 2. In GW2 there's a mini-PvP game called Costume Battle. When you use a costume you're given a skill set and can then attack other players in costume to gain points till you obtain 25, when you "win", after enough wins you get an achievement point, etc. Every costume/character transformation has skills of course, and this doesn't kill your character or anything doing it.
This innocent side-game however is plagued by the problem that all the store purchased costumes that characters can get have obviously superior skill sets, which allow those who purchase them to rule over all the other characters easily.
When I pointed out to others how obviously superior it was to "Pay to win" with these costumes however, many people of course sided with the company, saying "It's just a mini-game, nothing pay to win about that" being one of the most oft sited excuses. Maybe I'd be willing to accept that, except most costumes from the store cost in the range of $10-20 for them, not a light tax on top of the price of the base game when it came out.
Anyways, this type of behavior in game-sellers is what makes me think all game studios are evil money grubbers these days, as it's easier to generalize that everyone is bad than to try and make a list.
Arkade99 said:
Paying real world money should never be an alternative to playing the game. Whether you want to call that P2W or not is irrelevant. Everything gained/achieved in game should be earned in game.
well, if you are not being charged for the product up front then I think its reasonable to expect things within the game to cost something. The game did cost money to make, and was made with at least some expectation of turning a profit.
One thing to note in all these free games. If you are not being charged for the product. You are the product being sold. This is especially true in cash shop games. They sell your information and cookie you to death. They can tell every site you visit and sell that information to everyone. Trust me after working that end of the Industry the money made from marketing your information runs into the hundreds of millions.
So? thats like half the internet these days, discount cards, club stores (bjs, costco, sams, ect) all do that. Its the price paid for living in this day and age. Also there is no guarantee the paid games dont or wont do the same, because as you said, there is tons of money to be made and nearly every game is connected to the internet in some way.
Also I started playing Warframe with my brother, on a lark I looked at their cash shop. To buy a package with a few perks/skins costs $150, which makes me wonder why a supposedly F2P game costs more to "get the goods" in than just buying several AAA games at launch.
Also I started playing Warframe with my brother, on a lark I looked at their cash shop. To buy a package with a few perks/skins costs $150, which makes me wonder why a supposedly F2P game costs more to "get the goods" in than just buying several AAA games at launch.
I will say, that in warframe, you are doing yourself a HUGE disservice by buying any weapons or frames, half the game is farming for and building them yourself. You eliminate a huge motivation for play by just buying them. Cosmetics are another thing, but they are just accessories, pick a few that you want and get em, also you can trade items to other players for plat as well.
Pay to Win is a term. "Win" means you gain an advantage by paying cash over someone who uses in game progression mechanics. This advantage can be statistical or time.
Extreme examples are games where progression is intimately tied into the cash shop. Many asian games are like this and target what is now known as "whales". You will never, ever complete against these players as you cannot reach their heights of progression.
The term still applies in lesser degrees which players apparently have become mostly accustomed to (aka. Drank the Kool-Aid). ESO has likely one of the least game play impacting cash shop models yet still offers advantages through paying more cash than even a sub.
In ESO you can enter pvp at level 10. A new player can reach level 10 in 1-2 days even if learning how to play. They may not even have a mount yet. If they do they only had time to upgrade their riding skill 2 pips at most. It takes 60 days of game play to max all riding stats which offers a great advantage in pvp due to the size of the Cyrodiil map and how easy it is to fall off your horse from damage. Someone who uses the cash shop can max out their riding skill instantly at a rather significant cost. They can also max out bag spaces prolonging extended excursions in pvp and pve. They can use +50% xp scrolls to progress faster. They can buy end game level potions which make a massive difference in pvp and cannot be created by a new player or a very time consuming grind and collection of mats limited by skill rank.
This is all Pay 2 Win because the term actually means advantages otherwise not achievable by another in the same amount of time. Unless a cash shop is 100% cosmetic with zero impact combat and progression in game there are pay 2 win elements. How much is acceptable by it's player base is entirely another matter.
Every single change in the online pc video game industry has come about by players accepting each change as they come. Some games failed by pushing the boundaries while other profit because more buy into it over reject it.
Paying real world money should never be an alternative to playing the game. Whether you want to call that P2W or not is irrelevant. Everything gained/achieved in game should be earned in game.
well, if you are not being charged for the product up front then I think its reasonable to expect things within the game to cost something. The game did cost money to make, and was made with at least some expectation of turning a profit.
I absolutely expect to pay to play the game. I don't expect pay instead of play the game.
Paying real world money should never be an alternative to playing the game. Whether you want to call that P2W or not is irrelevant. Everything gained/achieved in game should be earned in game.
well, if you are not being charged for the product up front then I think its reasonable to expect things within the game to cost something. The game did cost money to make, and was made with at least some expectation of turning a profit.
I absolutely expect to pay to play the game. I don't expect pay instead of play the game.
I guess its a differing of opinion of what is meant by 'play' most modern f2p games ive found to be perfectly acceptable experiences while paying nothing or very little.
Paying real world money should never be an alternative to playing the game. Whether you want to call that P2W or not is irrelevant. Everything gained/achieved in game should be earned in game.
well, if you are not being charged for the product up front then I think its reasonable to expect things within the game to cost something. The game did cost money to make, and was made with at least some expectation of turning a profit.
I absolutely expect to pay to play the game. I don't expect pay instead of play the game.
I guess its a differing of opinion of what is meant by 'play' most modern f2p games ive found to be perfectly acceptable experiences while paying nothing or very little.
There certainly is a reality where many games could not exist without the model applied. A very few (most situated in the west I find) are capable of being played without ever opening up the cash shop window. It's the extreme spectrum f2p can escalate toward with exploitation that is disconcerting. Pick you poison is the best one can do I imagine.
The worst cases are games that I truly actually enjoyed that became completely unplayable when a cash shop was implemented. I really got into Allods Online when first brought to the west and had great guild fun until the cash shop chased EVERYONE away ... those who could even stomach the design faults of the game itself.
I have my definition. But it really is all tied to PvP. I know there have been cases of kill mob and get drop that will never drop again but very rare in my experience but P2W means pay to win. What is someone winning if not PvP?
If it is not about PvP then the whole discussion I have with someone sounds like someone being bitter about someone not having to do things the same way. If that is true then what about the people who get to max level fastest through having a group of friends or a guild that helps reaching max level? Isn't that unfair then since most people don't have a network to do that?
I hear the term used and unless it prevents me from being able to do something in the game then it is not something I worry about. I do find it funny the people who are most against such items in the Battlefield Hero example were the ones who bought the most. People want to be first even when first means nothing and that trickles down I feel with people just going to complain as well because it is easier for ones who grease the wheel even if they complain as they do so.
Say there are different levels of power in a game. The free to play power, the sub power and add the cash shop powers of various levels depending on what you buy. That the power number and divide by how much the player has spent in total to play any portion of the game. For people who spend 0, use .0000001 so you don't get a divide by zero result. The result which is highest is the most over powered per money spent.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
If I can pay money to not have to play part of a game, I consider that a "bad deal". I don't know if it qualifies as P2W, but why would I want to play a game that's making it sound like a great deal to pay cash in order to skip actually playing it?
That includes things like Automatic Levels and gear handouts. To a lesser extent it could also include items like XP Pots. Sure, if I am a latecomer to a game, I may have a lot of levels to catch up on. But if gaining those levels isn't fun, then what comes after I have those levels probably won't be much fun either. I would vastly prefer a system that encourages people to help newcomers level (like CoH's Exemplar/Sidekick systems) rather than just bypassing the experience entirely.
P2W, in my mind, really only applies to games you can Win - most MMOs are just perpetual treadmills, but in PvP aspects I suppose there is a winner and a loser, and if you can pay for an advantage there then yeah, I suppose it qualifies.
Every Tom,Dick and Harry thinks something is P2W and no amount of definition of what P2W really is or not will satisfy them as long as they go ahead with their own idea of what that term means. You see this discussion here ,on the game forums and in the game chat.
For every person who thinks they know for sure what it means some other bloke will just insist they are wrong and go about blithely with their definition of the term. There is no statute or Supreme Court decision that will satisfy them.
My definition of P2W is when a player opens up the in-game store, purchases the "I Win" button, then waltzes over to some character 80 levels above them, presses the button, and said character is instantly killed.
I dislike Cash Shops giving excessive advantages to payers, but I'm fine with time-saver boosts. There is one circumstance where I'm 'fine" (or at the very least tolerate it) with cash shops selling excessive advantages and that is when that advantage (regardless of what it is, gear, mounts, etc) can be sold openly on the market to other players using in-game currency (meaning that a player will purchase the item once using real money and sell it in auction in exchange for in-game money) OR if, like RIFT, players can purchase Cash Shop credits from other players using in-game money (REX I think it's called), but those are the only conditions where I will tolerate it. Honestly though, more games should take that path, it should cut down on gold sellers as well by giving players a legal and largely risk-free alternative to make in-game gold.
Pay to win Obtaining a significant competitive advantage by spending real money.
Any item sold by a company that grants an important gameplay advantage over the other users (character becomes noticeably stronger, faster, richer or has more options) is Pay to win. $$$ >>> increased chance of winning = P2W
Spend cash to get to max level or near it and get you faster to end game content = P2W Spend cash to get carried in arena's to get geared = P2W Spend cash for items that makes you stronger = P2W
Anything that gives you a edge on other players = P2W. That is where it hurts and that is why we see those things more in F2P games because in the P2P games they expect you to play fair from start to finish but sometimes even P2P games tend to go on the dark side.
Look at WoW instant boost to level 90 with iLevel 460 gear ( i hope i got the right iLevel for that ) can be purchase in the in-game store also if you pre-order the next xpac you get a instant level 100 character but also the fact that this instant 100 you will also be able to get it in the in-game store once the xpac is release just like the instant level 90 boost. We all know that this game is all about raids and arena's and we all know it is the one's at end game that counts and not at 70 or 80 or 90 even so by been able to skip everything and get right there at end game by paying for it = P2W.
And NO i don't care the game as been out for X amount of time and some played too much the game etc to go and do all the levels etc. because in the end it won't change the fact that P2W is P2W no matter the reason of why some are using it.
Imho, anytime you can buy power it's p2w, no matter how small, it's still p2w. If you can covert cash into in game currency which allows you to buy items form other players, it's p2w, no matter what.
That being said there are varying degrees of p2w. Unfortunately what crosses the line is purely subjective to each and every player.
One example of P2W that I found particularly disgusting, and well disguised, was in Guild Wars 2. In GW2 there's a mini-PvP game called Costume Battle. When you use a costume you're given a skill set and can then attack other players in costume to gain points till you obtain 25, when you "win", after enough wins you get an achievement point, etc. Every costume/character transformation has skills of course, and this doesn't kill your character or anything doing it.
This innocent side-game however is plagued by the problem that all the store purchased costumes that characters can get have obviously superior skill sets, which allow those who purchase them to rule over all the other characters easily.
When I pointed out to others how obviously superior it was to "Pay to win" with these costumes however, many people of course sided with the company, saying "It's just a mini-game, nothing pay to win about that" being one of the most oft sited excuses. Maybe I'd be willing to accept that, except most costumes from the store cost in the range of $10-20 for them, not a light tax on top of the price of the base game when it came out.
Anyways, this type of behavior in game-sellers is what makes me think all game studios are evil money grubbers these days, as it's easier to generalize that everyone is bad than to try and make a list.
I got a lot of hours in GW2 and I never seen any costume brawl. I didn't realize they were actually doing that. There's a lot of content in that game and well I just don't do half of it. So I agree that what you described is pay to win but I would ask where does anyone get costumes? I believe I only have 1 costume myself and this is from years of playing. So far as I can tell the only way to even fight in this brawl minigame is to spend real money on a costume. I doubt that minigame will give anyone an item I cannot get from some other source without spending any money. Only thing you are missing is an achievement really.
What a person believes is pay-to-win is only relevant as far as whether or not it affects that person's decision to play the game.
Whether or not a game is pay-to-win by a person's personal beliefs, the TRUE relevance of such a concept comes into play when it starts hurting the game ("hurting the game" meaning "Causes much of the playerbase to suffer and/or lose players"). There are several ways (most quite subtle and insidious by design) this could happen, but it becomes most obvious in any game with lots of PvP where the PvP itself offers tangible rewards. In this case, Pay-to-advantage, whether or not you personally call it pay-to-win, can seriously screw much of the player base over by ensuring that the whales always (or almost always) win and get the rewards while others don't.
Companies are well aware of this and well aware of what types of monetization will hurt a game but still get them more money. R2Games readily admitted it while explaining their business model to investors (http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016417/-100-000-Whales-An). They don't care as it gets them more money in the short term.
In the end, it's not about whether or not you call it pay-to-win. It's about whether or not it hurts the game. Of course, if you're so worried about a particular game being pay-to-win in the first place, and you see several people warning you that it's pay-to-win even though many others who have much more lenient definitions of the term are claiming it's not, odds are pretty good it really IS hurting the game (at least, enough for you) and it's probably a good idea for you to stay away from that game.
We've known it's been Pay to Win for the longest time. Before the P2W was benign. Those pre-order bonuses that we used to get with collectors editions that gave us a mount at level 1 while everyone else had to level and spend in game resources to get their own? That was the start of these P2W shenanigans. Once the East brought over their F2P model, every developer started looking at their MMOs like if they worked for Zynga.
Now it’s blown up and players don’t want to drop their training wheels for cash. The bad thing is that it creates a blatantly unfair advantage in these MMOs. Whether it’s PvE or PvP there’s some level of competition and when you have players that are getting currency, boosts, instant revives, more bank space, teleports, faster mounts, extra drop rate, less damage to their gear when they die, etc… it makes these games seem cheap.
I never had enough time to play my MMOs from Ultima Online to the current one that I’m looking at in Blade and Soul, but I was still able to get to end game in many of them and play competitively. This excuse that players are too busy doesn’t justify selling these cheats for cash. Instead of developers finally moving away from this insipid grind to max level, then grind out colored coded loot they double down on it and now it seems to be all they can ever aspire too in these MMOs.
Players, it’s time to put the brakes on this nonsense. You can defend this Pay to Win insanity all you want, but developers don’t deserve money for making their gameplay intentionally bad. Having these huge grinds would get MMO companies killed if they ever tried to do that nonsense under subscription. Trying to coerce someone with bad gameplay to pay up is probably the most annoying thing about this cash shop craze.
These developers have monthly costs. B2P, and F2P don’t live in that reality. That’s why many of these titles have such anemic updates because they can only add so much when the vast majority of don’t pay regularly. However, the truth is that many of these titles aren’t worth paying for monthly. Their gameplay is extremely basic and all of their grand designs revolve around some ridiculous Skinner box RNG loot rolls, grinds to nowhere or a lengthy crafting creation scheme to keep the player engaged.
A lot of these MMOs need die. If players don’t want to pay for their MMOs then paying players shouldn’t be subsidizing them by buying ways to cheat through the game’s progression. It doesn’t make for a stronger game, it makes a game that will slowly but surely die off because it’s main point is to find ways make the gameplay so insipid that someone pays up to alleviate the nonsense.
Comments
Arkade99 said:
Paying real world money should never be an alternative to playing the game. Whether you want to call that P2W or not is irrelevant. Everything gained/achieved in game should be earned in game.
well, if you are not being charged for the product up front then I think its reasonable to expect things within the game to cost something. The game did cost money to make, and was made with at least some expectation of turning a profit.
One thing to note in all these free games. If you are not being charged for the product. You are the product being sold. This is especially true in cash shop games. They sell your information and cookie you to death. They can tell every site you visit and sell that information to everyone. Trust me after working that end of the Industry the money made from marketing your information runs into the hundreds of millions.
One of the biggest draws of MMORPGs for me is when who you are in-game is a result of your actions in-game. In my ideal MMORPG nothing can be bought using real life money, I can accept cosmetic items and in some cases bank slots being obtainable with IRL money depending on the implementation but I can understand people who are against that as well.
This innocent side-game however is plagued by the problem that all the store purchased costumes that characters can get have obviously superior skill sets, which allow those who purchase them to rule over all the other characters easily.
When I pointed out to others how obviously superior it was to "Pay to win" with these costumes however, many people of course sided with the company, saying "It's just a mini-game, nothing pay to win about that" being one of the most oft sited excuses. Maybe I'd be willing to accept that, except most costumes from the store cost in the range of $10-20 for them, not a light tax on top of the price of the base game when it came out.
Anyways, this type of behavior in game-sellers is what makes me think all game studios are evil money grubbers these days, as it's easier to generalize that everyone is bad than to try and make a list.
So? thats like half the internet these days, discount cards, club stores (bjs, costco, sams, ect) all do that. Its the price paid for living in this day and age. Also there is no guarantee the paid games dont or wont do the same, because as you said, there is tons of money to be made and nearly every game is connected to the internet in some way.
Extreme examples are games where progression is intimately tied into the cash shop. Many asian games are like this and target what is now known as "whales". You will never, ever complete against these players as you cannot reach their heights of progression.
The term still applies in lesser degrees which players apparently have become mostly accustomed to (aka. Drank the Kool-Aid). ESO has likely one of the least game play impacting cash shop models yet still offers advantages through paying more cash than even a sub.
In ESO you can enter pvp at level 10. A new player can reach level 10 in 1-2 days even if learning how to play. They may not even have a mount yet. If they do they only had time to upgrade their riding skill 2 pips at most. It takes 60 days of game play to max all riding stats which offers a great advantage in pvp due to the size of the Cyrodiil map and how easy it is to fall off your horse from damage. Someone who uses the cash shop can max out their riding skill instantly at a rather significant cost. They can also max out bag spaces prolonging extended excursions in pvp and pve. They can use +50% xp scrolls to progress faster. They can buy end game level potions which make a massive difference in pvp and cannot be created by a new player or a very time consuming grind and collection of mats limited by skill rank.
This is all Pay 2 Win because the term actually means advantages otherwise not achievable by another in the same amount of time. Unless a cash shop is 100% cosmetic with zero impact combat and progression in game there are pay 2 win elements. How much is acceptable by it's player base is entirely another matter.
Every single change in the online pc video game industry has come about by players accepting each change as they come. Some games failed by pushing the boundaries while other profit because more buy into it over reject it.
You stay sassy!
The worst cases are games that I truly actually enjoyed that became completely unplayable when a cash shop was implemented. I really got into Allods Online when first brought to the west and had great guild fun until the cash shop chased EVERYONE away ... those who could even stomach the design faults of the game itself.
You stay sassy!
If it is not about PvP then the whole discussion I have with someone sounds like someone being bitter about someone not having to do things the same way. If that is true then what about the people who get to max level fastest through having a group of friends or a guild that helps reaching max level? Isn't that unfair then since most people don't have a network to do that?
I hear the term used and unless it prevents me from being able to do something in the game then it is not something I worry about. I do find it funny the people who are most against such items in the Battlefield Hero example were the ones who bought the most. People want to be first even when first means nothing and that trickles down I feel with people just going to complain as well because it is easier for ones who grease the wheel even if they complain as they do so.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
If I can pay money to not have to play part of a game, I consider that a "bad deal". I don't know if it qualifies as P2W, but why would I want to play a game that's making it sound like a great deal to pay cash in order to skip actually playing it?
That includes things like Automatic Levels and gear handouts. To a lesser extent it could also include items like XP Pots. Sure, if I am a latecomer to a game, I may have a lot of levels to catch up on. But if gaining those levels isn't fun, then what comes after I have those levels probably won't be much fun either. I would vastly prefer a system that encourages people to help newcomers level (like CoH's Exemplar/Sidekick systems) rather than just bypassing the experience entirely.
P2W, in my mind, really only applies to games you can Win - most MMOs are just perpetual treadmills, but in PvP aspects I suppose there is a winner and a loser, and if you can pay for an advantage there then yeah, I suppose it qualifies.
For every person who thinks they know for sure what it means some other bloke will just insist they are wrong and go about blithely with their definition of the term. There is no statute or Supreme Court decision that will satisfy them.
Anything less than that is a waste of money.
Obtaining a significant competitive advantage by spending real money.
Any item sold by a company that grants an important gameplay advantage over the other users (character becomes noticeably stronger, faster, richer or has more options) is Pay to win. $$$ >>> increased chance of winning = P2W
Spend cash to get carried in arena's to get geared = P2W
Spend cash for items that makes you stronger = P2W
Anything that gives you a edge on other players = P2W. That is where it hurts and that is why we see those things more in F2P games because in the P2P games they expect you to play fair from start to finish but sometimes even P2P games tend to go on the dark side.
Look at WoW instant boost to level 90 with iLevel 460 gear ( i hope i got the right iLevel for that ) can be purchase in the in-game store also if you pre-order the next xpac you get a instant level 100 character but also the fact that this instant 100 you will also be able to get it in the in-game store once the xpac is release just like the instant level 90 boost. We all know that this game is all about raids and arena's and we all know it is the one's at end game that counts and not at 70 or 80 or 90 even so by been able to skip everything and get right there at end game by paying for it = P2W.
And NO i don't care the game as been out for X amount of time and some played too much the game etc to go and do all the levels etc. because in the end it won't change the fact that P2W is P2W no matter the reason of why some are using it.
That being said there are varying degrees of p2w. Unfortunately what crosses the line is purely subjective to each and every player.
I got a lot of hours in GW2 and I never seen any costume brawl. I didn't realize they were actually doing that. There's a lot of content in that game and well I just don't do half of it. So I agree that what you described is pay to win but I would ask where does anyone get costumes? I believe I only have 1 costume myself and this is from years of playing. So far as I can tell the only way to even fight in this brawl minigame is to spend real money on a costume. I doubt that minigame will give anyone an item I cannot get from some other source without spending any money. Only thing you are missing is an achievement really.
Whether or not a game is pay-to-win by a person's personal beliefs, the TRUE relevance of such a concept comes into play when it starts hurting the game ("hurting the game" meaning "Causes much of the playerbase to suffer and/or lose players"). There are several ways (most quite subtle and insidious by design) this could happen, but it becomes most obvious in any game with lots of PvP where the PvP itself offers tangible rewards. In this case, Pay-to-advantage, whether or not you personally call it pay-to-win, can seriously screw much of the player base over by ensuring that the whales always (or almost always) win and get the rewards while others don't.
Companies are well aware of this and well aware of what types of monetization will hurt a game but still get them more money. R2Games readily admitted it while explaining their business model to investors (http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016417/-100-000-Whales-An). They don't care as it gets them more money in the short term.
In the end, it's not about whether or not you call it pay-to-win. It's about whether or not it hurts the game. Of course, if you're so worried about a particular game being pay-to-win in the first place, and you see several people warning you that it's pay-to-win even though many others who have much more lenient definitions of the term are claiming it's not, odds are pretty good it really IS hurting the game (at least, enough for you) and it's probably a good idea for you to stay away from that game.
Now it’s blown up and players don’t want to drop their training wheels for cash. The bad thing is that it creates a blatantly unfair advantage in these MMOs. Whether it’s PvE or PvP there’s some level of competition and when you have players that are getting currency, boosts, instant revives, more bank space, teleports, faster mounts, extra drop rate, less damage to their gear when they die, etc… it makes these games seem cheap.
I never had enough time to play my MMOs from Ultima Online to the current one that I’m looking at in Blade and Soul, but I was still able to get to end game in many of them and play competitively. This excuse that players are too busy doesn’t justify selling these cheats for cash. Instead of developers finally moving away from this insipid grind to max level, then grind out colored coded loot they double down on it and now it seems to be all they can ever aspire too in these MMOs.
Players, it’s time to put the brakes on this nonsense. You can defend this Pay to Win insanity all you want, but developers don’t deserve money for making their gameplay intentionally bad. Having these huge grinds would get MMO companies killed if they ever tried to do that nonsense under subscription. Trying to coerce someone with bad gameplay to pay up is probably the most annoying thing about this cash shop craze.
These developers have monthly costs. B2P, and F2P don’t live in that reality. That’s why many of these titles have such anemic updates because they can only add so much when the vast majority of don’t pay regularly. However, the truth is that many of these titles aren’t worth paying for monthly. Their gameplay is extremely basic and all of their grand designs revolve around some ridiculous Skinner box RNG loot rolls, grinds to nowhere or a lengthy crafting creation scheme to keep the player engaged.
A lot of these MMOs need die. If players don’t want to pay for their MMOs then paying players shouldn’t be subsidizing them by buying ways to cheat through the game’s progression. It doesn’t make for a stronger game, it makes a game that will slowly but surely die off because it’s main point is to find ways make the gameplay so insipid that someone pays up to alleviate the nonsense.