The proof that MMORPG market is alive, developers are just terrible...

Lukooone

First of all sorry for my english, is not very good, im from Spain.

My 2 recent MMORPGs : Archeage and Blade&Soul. Both played at western start.

-Archeage : 1-5k players queue in every server, people asking for more servers, gazillion of people trying to play it. A few months later nobody cares of the whole game...
-Blade&Soul : Looks like almost the same, I cant even download it! Ibet in 3 months that game is deserted. Like every other MMORPG xcept maybe WoW.

People is playing moba games like LoL, WoT in hundreds of millions! My god even mobile Clash of Clans has more players than any MMORPG...

My two cents : Developers (I dont mean programmers) still didnt learn 3 basic lessons:

-MMORPGs are NOT CONSOLE GAMES. You dont need to deliver content, you need to give players tools to create its own content.
example: in Ultima Online you create your own goals trying to revenge the PKer that killed you or just trying to figure where a house with a smart shop can be done. This last I remember a lot when I put a vendor with teleport scrolls outside a very hard dungeon in a isle, people dying there really needing the scrolls. My vendor sales burning everyday. GIVE PEOPLE THE TOOLS!!

-MMORPGs are WORLDs, not instanced hubs, we want people to interact with oter people in an evil or good way, but we want that interaction, helping in PvE, trading in the world, Pkilling, non-instanced faction combats, housing (not instanced for gods shake, wheres the point in that?), multiple level areas (yes its very boring raise levels and go to the next zone, that is not working anyomore, wake up please!)

MMORPGS are DIFFICULT and EVIL as life is sometimes: MYGOD you can take care of your customers but WE ARE NOT CRYSTAL MADE, we can die in a bad pull or not dodging a dangerous skill in PvE or to a good PKiller that is waiting for you in a bad situation, is not that bad! Please STOP hearing the crybabies right now, we remember the challenges, not the farm!

Please get the point now before every player leaves the market, before every cribaby that cried a river cause a PK killed him is gone to League of Legends to die every 3 minutes! Please stop hearing the carebear crow, remember what they did to Ultima Online or this market will be soon like Trammel, A DESERT!!

Kyleran

Comparing success elements of MOBAS vs MMORPGs is a bit like comparing the success of orange juice vs prune juice.

borghive49

Well said OP! I don't think MMOs are going out of style either, I just think they have really strayed really far from their roots. The issue is though that everyone is still trying to copy the EQ-WoW formula, only now they removed a lot of the features that made those games fun, all in a effort to have mass appeal. 

LacedOpium

Kyleran said:

Comparing success elements of MOBAS vs MMORPGs is a bit like comparing the success of orange juice vs prune juice.

You nailed it.  There's a lot of hypocrisy in the OPs post.  If anything is going to kill Archeage and B&S, it's the PvP, and yet he blames the PvE carebears for the impending demise of MMORPGs.  An MMORPG without content is not an MMORPG, its a console FPS game.  

Last I looked there are a whole many more PvE centric MMORPG's succeeding than there are PvP centric MMORPG's.  The only thing that developers, and PvP centric folk, are not getting is that PvE and PvP do not mix in an MMORPG.  PvE MMORPG's can survive just fine without PvP.  The same can not be said the other way 'round.

Vermillion_Raventhal

Lukooone said:

First of all sorry for my english, is not very good, im from Spain.

My 2 recent MMORPGs : Archeage and Blade&Soul. Both played at western start.

-Archeage : 1-5k players queue in every server, people asking for more servers, gazillion of people trying to play it. A few months later nobody cares of the whole game...
-Blade&Soul : Looks like almost the same, I cant even download it! Ibet in 3 months that game is deserted. Like every other MMORPG xcept maybe WoW.

People is playing moba games like LoL, WoT in hundreds of millions! My god even mobile Clash of Clans has more players than any MMORPG...

My two cents : Developers (I dont mean programmers) still didnt learn 3 basic lessons:

-MMORPGs are NOT CONSOLE GAMES. You dont need to deliver content, you need to give players tools to create its own content.
example: in Ultima Online you create your own goals trying to revenge the PKer that killed you or just trying to figure where a house with a smart shop can be done. This last I remember a lot when I put a vendor with teleport scrolls outside a very hard dungeon in a isle, people dying there really needing the scrolls. My vendor sales burning everyday. GIVE PEOPLE THE TOOLS!!

-MMORPGs are WORLDs, not instanced hubs, we want people to interact with oter people in an evil or good way, but we want that interaction, helping in PvE, trading in the world, Pkilling, non-instanced faction combats, housing (not instanced for gods shake, wheres the point in that?), multiple level areas (yes its very boring raise levels and go to the next zone, that is not working anyomore, wake up please!)

MMORPGS are DIFFICULT and EVIL as life is sometimes: MYGOD you can take care of your customers but WE ARE NOT CRYSTAL MADE, we can die in a bad pull or not dodging a dangerous skill in PvE or to a good PKiller that is waiting for you in a bad situation, is not that bad! Please STOP hearing the crybabies right now, we remember the challenges, not the farm!

Please get the point now before every player leaves the market, before every cribaby that cried a river cause a PK killed him is gone to League of Legends to die every 3 minutes! Please stop hearing the carebear crow, remember what they did to Ultima Online or this market will be soon like Trammel, A DESERT!!

The problem is that the original MMORPG crowd have converted or left the genre.  The players now currently do need hand holding and most players now don't want to play MMORPG.  They want to play single player games where they show off their stuff to other players and Esport.

But I agree with some of what your saying.  Player resources are horribly managed in this genre outside of trying to milk us in cash shops.  Content in the genre is there just to get us to spend in cash shops.  Giving us tools to make our own content(not talking about quest makers) is likely cheaper than trying to force another treadmill that players demand done easily and quickly.  Easily and quickly but there better be months of it at the same time each expansion.  

esc-joconnor

Kyleran said:

Comparing success elements of MOBAS vs MMORPGs is a bit like comparing the success of orange juice vs prune juice.

Just because you love you some prune juice that doesn't mean there aren't others that love orange juice just as much!

Totally agree with the general statement of the OP, but not so much in the suggestions. MMORPGs are really a collection of games rolled into one. You can't spend the money for one game and expect WoW success (and $$). An MMORPG should be able to be open and tell they player what to do if they want that.
Even the most open world game should guide the player along showing what they can do in the game, what is available, but allow them to do it at their own pace or not at all.

Pepeq

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...


You talk about open world this and that... well there are a plethora of MMOs with an open world... players just choose not to go out in it.

PVP... more people despise it than like it.

Hard content versus easy... MMOs that try to do "hard" haven't managed to find all those hard core types that seemingly beg for such content.  

In a nutshell, what people say and what people do are often entirely different... thus whatever anyone is begging for is usually the last thing they want... OP's conclusions included.

Vermillion_Raventhal

Pepeq said:

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...


You talk about open world this and that... well there are a plethora of MMOs with an open world... players just choose not to go out in it.

PVP... more people despise it than like it.

Hard content versus easy... MMOs that try to do "hard" haven't managed to find all those hard core types that seemingly beg for such content.  

In a nutshell, what people say and what people do are often entirely different... thus whatever anyone is begging for is usually the last thing they want... OP's conclusions included.

Sometimes that water is sh*t.

YashaX

Hmmmm, hundred of millions of people are playing totally instanced games with fairly balanced pvp like LoL, while a game like ArchAge that has totally unbalanced, gear-based open world pvp and a vast open world that lets players basically do what they want has deserted severs after a few months, and the lesson you derive from that is that mmos need to be more like AA or an old game that had a peak population of about 250,000 players?

Scratches head.

GeezerGamer

Kyleran said:

Comparing success elements of MOBAS vs MMORPGs is a bit like comparing the success of orange juice vs prune juice.

Becasue.............Lemon Jello!

Velocinox

While I don't disagree with you, OP, that the MMO market is doomed. Using numbers from a recent release isn't a good argument to the contrary. MMO players love new. They can't get enough of new. What counts is 1-2 years later.

mmorobo

Pepeq said:

...
In a nutshell, what people say and what people do are often entirely different... thus whatever anyone is begging for is usually the last thing they want... OP's conclusions included.

While there is truth to that I would say it more has to do with people not being able to really understand what they want and being able to express it to others so that they can understand.  And what you want in theory usually does not work out like you thought in implementation.   Also people believe that what they think is what the majority think also.  It's like most people think they are smarter than average, but that just can't be true.

With the number of different options out there I bet everyone is in a small minority when it comes to what should or should not be done.

Velocinox

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Pepeq said:

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...


You talk about open world this and that... well there are a plethora of MMOs with an open world... players just choose not to go out in it.

PVP... more people despise it than like it.

Hard content versus easy... MMOs that try to do "hard" haven't managed to find all those hard core types that seemingly beg for such content.  

In a nutshell, what people say and what people do are often entirely different... thus whatever anyone is begging for is usually the last thing they want... OP's conclusions included.

Sometimes that water is sh*t.

Nice summary. So you agree with the above poster that open world PvP MMOs are shit?

Cazriel

LacedOpium said:

Kyleran said:

Comparing success elements of MOBAS vs MMORPGs is a bit like comparing the success of orange juice vs prune juice.

You nailed it.  There's a lot of hypocrisy in the OPs post.  If anything is going to kill Archeage and B&S, it's the PvP, and yet he blames the PvE carebears for the impending demise of MMORPGs.  An MMORPG without content is not an MMORPG, its a console FPS game.  

Last I looked there are a whole many more PvE centric MMORPG's succeeding than there are PvP centric MMORPG's.  The only thing that developers, and PvP centric folk, are not getting is that PvE and PvP do not mix in an MMORPG.  PvE MMORPG's can survive just fine without PvP.  The same can not be said the other way 'round.

Yes. 

The recent crop of "sandbox" games are all PvP centric.   I am reminded of one particular developer promising good PvE elements so that PvP players would have a target "rich environment".  Somehow the developer missed the part about PvE players not really wanting to provide that "rich environment".

Alders

The sooner we move back to a long term style of play in MMORPG's instead of 30 minute sessions with catch up mechanics, the better.

Kopogero

I wonder how many years will pass before I spend $ again on a MMORPG. It's been over 5 years since I haven't spent $ on a single game. That itself says everything....after 25+ years of exceptional gaming experience.

Forgrimm

The original post seems to contradict itself. It points out that Archeage died off within a few months, and then lists a bunch of features that players supposedly want, all of which are the very features that Archeage has. So if so many people want those features, then why did AA die off so fast?

Vermillion_Raventhal

Velocinox said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Pepeq said:

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...


You talk about open world this and that... well there are a plethora of MMOs with an open world... players just choose not to go out in it.

PVP... more people despise it than like it.

Hard content versus easy... MMOs that try to do "hard" haven't managed to find all those hard core types that seemingly beg for such content.  

In a nutshell, what people say and what people do are often entirely different... thus whatever anyone is begging for is usually the last thing they want... OP's conclusions included.

Sometimes that water is sh*t.

Nice summary. So you agree with the above poster that open world PvP MMOs are shit?

Nope.  Just that many of the games on the market are shit.  Telling us to play shitty games because their the right type is stupid.  

Vermillion_Raventhal

YashaX said:

Hmmmm, hundred of millions of people are playing totally instanced games with fairly balanced pvp like LoL, while a game like ArchAge that has totally unbalanced, gear-based open world pvp and a vast open world that lets players basically do what they want has deserted severs after a few months, and the lesson you derive from that is that mmos need to be more like AA or an old game that had a peak population of about 250,000 players?

Scratches head.

I would be playing Archeage if it wasn't P2W.  

Velocinox

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Velocinox said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Pepeq said:

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...


You talk about open world this and that... well there are a plethora of MMOs with an open world... players just choose not to go out in it.

PVP... more people despise it than like it.

Hard content versus easy... MMOs that try to do "hard" haven't managed to find all those hard core types that seemingly beg for such content.  

In a nutshell, what people say and what people do are often entirely different... thus whatever anyone is begging for is usually the last thing they want... OP's conclusions included.

Sometimes that water is sh*t.

Nice summary. So you agree with the above poster that open world PvP MMOs are shit?

Nope.  Just that many of the games on the market are shit.  Telling us to play shitty games because their the right type is stupid.  

Well if you try apple pie and you don't like it, and you try key lime pie and you don't like it, and you try chocolate pie and you don't like it. Maybe you just like the idea of pie but you really don't like pie.

Maybe you would prefer a nice FPS cake, or MOBA torte instead?

SpottyGekko

I have to giggle every time I read one of these "carebears ruined UO" rants !

UO was forced to split the population between PVP and PVE realms, because the PVE'ers were leaving in droves to "safe" games like EQ. After the split, which servers thrived ? The PVE server ! The PVP server became a wasteland...

In the end, the carebears saved UO, how ironic...

Vermillion_Raventhal

Velocinox said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Velocinox said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Pepeq said:

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...


You talk about open world this and that... well there are a plethora of MMOs with an open world... players just choose not to go out in it.

PVP... more people despise it than like it.

Hard content versus easy... MMOs that try to do "hard" haven't managed to find all those hard core types that seemingly beg for such content.  

In a nutshell, what people say and what people do are often entirely different... thus whatever anyone is begging for is usually the last thing they want... OP's conclusions included.

Sometimes that water is sh*t.

Nice summary. So you agree with the above poster that open world PvP MMOs are shit?

Nope.  Just that many of the games on the market are shit.  Telling us to play shitty games because their the right type is stupid.  

Well if you try apple pie and you don't like it, and you try key lime pie and you don't like it, and you try chocolate pie and you don't like it. Maybe you just like the idea of pie but you really don't like pie.

Maybe you would prefer a nice FPS cake, or MOBA torte instead?

Not all games are created equal.  I get told all the time that there are sandbox games.  Most of them suck for reason unrelated to being sandboxes.  They just suck as games.   I am too slow now for FPS and I don't like MOBA.

Lukooone

Forgrimm said:

The original post seems to contradict itself. It points out that Archeage died off within a few months, and then lists a bunch of features that players supposedly want, all of which are the very features that Archeage has. So if so many people want those features, then why did AA die off so fast?

You are right, Archeage has many of that features, I still think i has not the tools to allow players create its own content but, letme answer you with two questions, what do you think about ARK success? Do you think it can become a great MMORPG if it was developed by a AAA company instead of an Indie?

Velocinox

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Velocinox said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Velocinox said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Pepeq said:

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...


You talk about open world this and that... well there are a plethora of MMOs with an open world... players just choose not to go out in it.

PVP... more people despise it than like it.

Hard content versus easy... MMOs that try to do "hard" haven't managed to find all those hard core types that seemingly beg for such content.  

In a nutshell, what people say and what people do are often entirely different... thus whatever anyone is begging for is usually the last thing they want... OP's conclusions included.

Sometimes that water is sh*t.

Nice summary. So you agree with the above poster that open world PvP MMOs are shit?

Nope.  Just that many of the games on the market are shit.  Telling us to play shitty games because their the right type is stupid.  

Well if you try apple pie and you don't like it, and you try key lime pie and you don't like it, and you try chocolate pie and you don't like it. Maybe you just like the idea of pie but you really don't like pie.

Maybe you would prefer a nice FPS cake, or MOBA torte instead?

Not all games are created equal.  I get told all the time that there are sandbox games.  Most of them suck for reason unrelated to being sandboxes.  They just suck as games.   I am too slow now for FPS and I don't like MOBA.

I hear people saying that. But it's said about every sandbox PvP MMO... There hasn't been a smash open world PvP game period. I think what proponents are looking for isn't well made open-world PvP, but the loop-holed and exploitable early efforts of UO and EVE, because well, the best way to PvP is to go straight to the other guy's RL account, or cause as much grief as possible in-game.

kaiser3282

Velocinox said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Velocinox said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Pepeq said:

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...


You talk about open world this and that... well there are a plethora of MMOs with an open world... players just choose not to go out in it.

PVP... more people despise it than like it.

Hard content versus easy... MMOs that try to do "hard" haven't managed to find all those hard core types that seemingly beg for such content.  

In a nutshell, what people say and what people do are often entirely different... thus whatever anyone is begging for is usually the last thing they want... OP's conclusions included.

Sometimes that water is sh*t.

Nice summary. So you agree with the above poster that open world PvP MMOs are shit?

Nope.  Just that many of the games on the market are shit.  Telling us to play shitty games because their the right type is stupid.  

Well if you try apple pie and you don't like it, and you try key lime pie and you don't like it, and you try chocolate pie and you don't like it. Maybe you just like the idea of pie but you really don't like pie.

Maybe you would prefer a nice FPS cake, or MOBA torte instead?

Or maybe those pies are being made by someone who is terrible at making pies and left some ingredients out or added something that made it taste funny or didn't bake it long enough. Unfortunately the only other bakery around makes cakes but not pies.

So your options are eat the shitty pie, eat cake instead of pie even though you really crave pie but the cake at least tastes pretty good, or just dont eat any of them.

 If only there was a good bakery nearby that actually specialized in pies and could great pies consistently.

Velocinox

kaiser3282 said:

Velocinox said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Velocinox said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Pepeq said:

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...


You talk about open world this and that... well there are a plethora of MMOs with an open world... players just choose not to go out in it.

PVP... more people despise it than like it.

Hard content versus easy... MMOs that try to do "hard" haven't managed to find all those hard core types that seemingly beg for such content.  

In a nutshell, what people say and what people do are often entirely different... thus whatever anyone is begging for is usually the last thing they want... OP's conclusions included.

Sometimes that water is sh*t.

Nice summary. So you agree with the above poster that open world PvP MMOs are shit?

Nope.  Just that many of the games on the market are shit.  Telling us to play shitty games because their the right type is stupid.  

Well if you try apple pie and you don't like it, and you try key lime pie and you don't like it, and you try chocolate pie and you don't like it. Maybe you just like the idea of pie but you really don't like pie.

Maybe you would prefer a nice FPS cake, or MOBA torte instead?

Or maybe those pies are being made by someone who is terrible at making pies and left some ingredients out or added something that made it taste funny or didn't bake it long enough. Unfortunately the only other bakery around makes cakes but not pies.

you would have to have a good pie and a good bakery to use as an example. But so far according to PvP open-world gamers every pie and ever baker has sucked... so again, it comes back to maybe pie (MMORPGs) just isn't the medium to deliver the flavors they want?