I can get behind convenience, but you have to agree that there is a threshold. How much convenience is too much convenience? When do the simple things stop having any meaning?
whenever the player decides it is too much.
Hence, options are good. No one forces you to use LFD .. but it is there, and if you decides it is not too much, use it.
some would say too much was when two computers connected together and people started playing games sitting in chairs instead of going outside to actually use RL LFG tools.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
There is a list on this site somewhere with upwards of 2 dozen sandbox titles.
Sadly most sandboxes are composed of kitty litter
ha! you missed it.
the ongoing assumption here on this thread is that Sandbox is 'non-casual'. there I gave it to you ....attack away
The real story of Sandbox MMORPGs, by Jean-Luc Picard of MMORPG.COM. You've read it here first.
The story begins nowadays, in one of the few low population games of that type the market has. A newbie creates a character and enters the world. He's starting to enjoy himself, the possibilities are breathtaking, no rails, all freedom, he starts to hunt a few mobs and craft some stuff. And then, shortly after, he meets his first "veteran player", and ends naked having lost everything he started to create to someone he didn't even have the dream of a fighting chance against. Squashed like a bug.
No worries. He's not that easily discouraged, so he starts again. It must have been one of the very few asshats in the game, since people on forums are so positive and say everyone is so nice and helpful in that game.
A few hours later, same scenario. Killed by a guy he could do nothing against, not even run away from, and of course looted dry from any advancement he had achieved. Note that the offender is often the same than in the previous attack, just camping there for easy kills and generally being a nuisance to newcomers.
Then the newbie asks to himself... do I really have to deal with that shit? The game looks like it could be fun, but the players are ruining it and the developers don't have enough balls to stop it. Therefore, they lose my money and a customer, since there are so many great games where the rules will encourage and protect all play styles equally, including mine, instead of favoring asshattery and griefing.
-----------
Time travel back to 1996, UO beta/release. A newbie creates a character and enters the world. He's starting to
enjoy himself, the possibilities are breathtaking, no rails, all
freedom, and FFS, it's ONLINE with other people!!!!! He starts to hunt a few mobs and craft some stuff. And then,
shortly after, he meets his first "PK", and ends naked
having lost everything he started to created to someone he didn't even
have the dream of a fighting chance against.
Sound like something you've already read, right?
Well, nope, there's still a major difference: Then he asks to himself... do I really have to deal with that shit? The
game looks like it could be fun, but the players are ruining it and the
developers don't have enough balls or are too stupid to stop it. But well, yeah, I guess I'll have to deal with it for now, since there's no valid alternative if I want to play a MMORPG right now.
And so they dealt with it, and kept playing... because there was no alternative... until...
----------
Then EQ and AC1 arrived, two games which gave the CHOICE between PvE and PvP, which gave every player the opportunity to enjoy the game his way without being also forced into someone else's way. Imagine that, fans could enjoy MMORPGs without being the prey of bullies, no life kiddies, and other Internet psychopaths.
That's when UO had to patch in Trammel in a hurry to survive. Players where leaving in masses for those new games where they could play enjoying their playstyle without being bullied. That's when the way to design MMORPGs changed, for the greater good. It didn't change when WoW was released. It changed when UO was forced to accept that there was way more than just PKs to rule a MMORPG world, and that those are actually only a tiny minority of the player base. And UO Trammel also proved that you don't need forced PvP to be a good sandbox game.
sounds about right to me.
I think Wurm Online might be the only deeply created sandbox game that doesnt have the asshat pvp unless you want it. that is a small list...1
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Is there such thing now? Closest non casual MMO's I've been fortunate to experience in the past were World of Warcraft BC, Lich King, Cataclysm and Pandaria expansions (very hard progressive raiding) and Star Wars Galaxies the path to unlocking force sensitive and then training jedi as well as going through the trials, while most bounty hunters and basically the galaxy is chasing for you to give you exp penalty.
Raids back then in WOW the top progression guilds raided for 5+ days in the week for 4-5 hours as I recall. The reward for clearing the most difficult content through a short time frame was not just being the top guild on server, but also being able to ride some very rare and difficult to obtain mounts.
I don't think we have the same oppinion of what a "none casual MMO" is, while Wow always had some hardcore raiding the rest of the game was casual even in vanilla. The raiding is less then 10% of the total content so calling the game hardcore seems wrong to me.
SWG was hardcore though.
So with your definition there are few hardcore games around, like Wildstar. Seems like GW2 might move in that direction as well. The way I see hardcore games there basically are 3 in alpha state: Pantheon, Shards online and Crowfall.
But there are a few games that should work for you, WS is free and the newest so give it a shot first and see if it works for you. It needs all the players it can get.
I think Wurm Online might be the only deeply created sandbox game that doesnt have the asshat pvp unless you want it. that is a small list...1
I must admit that I'm intrigued by the new "Wurm Unlimited" thing... run your own "UO-like" 3D game with your own rules, sounds good, specially since I have access to virtual machines on powerful servers at work and I could easily use one to run such a server 24/24 7/7.
The problem is, the game doesn't look much better than Wurm... looks ugly (and don't even mention the animations), programmed poorly, clunky UI... running a server is one thing, but it's no good if you're the only one being able to accept how bad the game you're running is.
UO also no longer has the asshat PvP unless you want it, but it's old, bad graphics, clunky UI, and to a lesser extent, EvE doesn't have it either, but it's not a conventional MMORPG and playing a spaceship doesn't appeal everyone out there either.
it is an exact copy of Wurm Online pretty much except for two key differences.
1. its not the same map (which ticked me off!) 2. skilling up even by default is MUCH faster, so are some actions.
but yeah its still the year of 2000 looking game but I personally love it. I would say if you have played it for around 20 hours that is all you need to know if you are going to like it or not, online or unlimited doesnt matter
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I think Wurm Online might be the only deeply created sandbox game that doesnt have the asshat pvp unless you want it. that is a small list...1
Is A Tale in the Desert not a deeply created sandbox game to you? Because it has no PvP.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
I think Wurm Online might be the only deeply created sandbox game that doesnt have the asshat pvp unless you want it. that is a small list...1
Is A Tale in the Desert not a deeply created sandbox game to you? Because it has no PvP.
not sure because I know nothing about it. As it turns out I (unlike most people) have not played every MMO ever created even though I sometimes use language that implies that I do to those who would not know otherwise...;)
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I can get behind convenience, but you have to agree that there is a threshold. How much convenience is too much convenience? When do the simple things stop having any meaning?
whenever the player decides it is too much.
Hence, options are good. No one forces you to use LFD .. but it is there, and if you decides it is not too much, use it.
some would say too much was when two computers connected together and people started playing games sitting in chairs instead of going outside to actually use RL LFG tools.
lol ... yeah.
But no one says devs need to cater to those people.
Casual is a subjective playstyle. It's how one plays a game not the game itself. What game can't I play for 20 mins. a week for example.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Hardcore doesn't mean the game is hard. More often than not, it is exactly the opposite. Its the huge time investment which makes them hardcore, not the overall difficulty.
And? Personal discipline, patience, and game knowledge are as much skills as being a twitch king or whatever.
- EVE online as one close to the term of mmo world as it was in SWG - world alive and breathing with players doing their own stuff depending on what one likes. - Haven and Hearth as something small but really good (actually i think it took what UO had and added more).
can solo to max level on any class autogrouping gear is color marked because people can't read travel is super easy no serious death penalty xp is super easy to get completely invulnerable during corpse run some of the easiest raids in any game
Hardcore doesn't mean the game is hard. More often than not, it is exactly the opposite. Its the huge time investment which makes them hardcore, not the overall difficulty.
Everything in life that takes skill, takes time to master. These aren't two separate concepts, they completely overlap.
There's nothing that takes skill but doesn't take time to learn.
People often call something like a corpse run a timesink, even though it's directly linked to skill. Once you have enough skill and understand why you die, you can prevent it from happening. These two concepts overlap almost entirely.
Most MMORPG's (past and present) are designed in a manner that is less about skill, and more about attaining the right number/party size to complete the activity. Unless you consider realizing you need to reach level 20 as well as need (x)gear to complete something a skill... in that case I'd say you're aiming fairly low in gaining actual skills.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Hardcore doesn't mean the game is hard. More often than not, it is exactly the opposite. Its the huge time investment which makes them hardcore, not the overall difficulty.
Everything in life that takes skill, takes time to master. These aren't two separate concepts, they completely overlap.
There's nothing that takes skill but doesn't take time to learn.
People often call something like a corpse run a timesink, even though it's directly linked to skill. Once you have enough skill and understand why you die, you can prevent it from happening. These two concepts overlap almost entirely.
Most MMORPG's (past and present) are designed in a manner that is less about skill, and more about attaining the right number/part size to complete the activity. Unless you consider realizing you need to reach level 20 as well as need (x)gear to complete something a skill... in that case I'd say you're aiming fairly low in gaining actual skills.
I think it depends on different factors. If you are following a certain path and explicitly given and told what gear to wear then there is little to think about. Also if the characters stats and skills are mostly predefined then there is again not much to think about. Even taking away death penalties reduces thought about where would be an optimal place to go to level without dying. It's easy to take everything that makes an RPG out of it and then say it requires no thought. At that point you are getting to a place where you might as well leave everything up to the developer since you are almost there anyway. Skill might be a poor way to describe this process since it is more about thinking of how to make a character effective rather than being able to execute something rapidly and accurately.
I think it depends on different factors. If you are following a certain path and explicitly given and told what gear to wear then there is little to think about. Also if the characters stats and skills are mostly predefined then there is again not much to think about. Even taking away death penalties reduces thought about where would be an optimal place to go to level without dying. It's easy to take everything that makes an RPG out of it and then say it requires no thought. At that point you are getting to a place where you might as well leave everything up to the developer since you are almost there anyway. Skill might be a poor way to describe this process since it is more about thinking of how to make a character effective rather than being able to execute something rapidly and accurately.
I'd say they took patience as well as a willingness to learn (read), knowing which damage to use, weaknesses, strengths, alternate paths, etc... in the past.. That's what they've largely done away with in the present, some have even tried making them more about applied skills like twitch skills in place of requiring knowledge to succeed.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Is there such thing now? Closest non casual MMO's I've been fortunate to experience in the past were World of Warcraft BC, Lich King, Cataclysm and Pandaria expansions (very hard progressive raiding) and Star Wars Galaxies the path to unlocking force sensitive and then training jedi as well as going through the trials, while most bounty hunters and basically the galaxy is chasing for you to give you exp penalty.
Raids back then in WOW the top progression guilds raided for 5+ days in the week for 4-5 hours as I recall. The reward for clearing the most difficult content through a short time frame was not just being the top guild on server, but also being able to ride some very rare and difficult to obtain mounts.
What is your definition of non-casual?
Is it time based? e.g. games where you need to spend 10-15 hours a week online to remain competitive / at the top?
Is it difficulty based? e.g. games where you need to be intelligent in order to be successful?
Is it mechanics based? e.g. games with harsh death penalties, pvp looting etc?
For me, casual / hardcore has never been about time spent, its more about approach to the game combined with actual difficulty. Actual difficulty in a combination of mechanics / depth combined with your own intelligence.
For example, I found SW:TOR to be crazy easy. The mechanics were very simple to understand, group dynamics were extremely limited (just aggro / dps / heals) and each class basically played the same - generic rotation + emergency skills. Didn't really need to be clever or spend much time to "master" each class.
However, the vast majority of people I met in SW:TOR (and every mmo tbh) didn't have the capacity to fully understand the games mechanics, or just didn't even try to learn. They could look up optimal rotations and follow them but lacked the ability to experiment and come up with their own, or even understand why some rotations are better than others. That meant to them, the endgame was difficult and could be considered hardcore, but for people like me it felt boring due to being too easy.
With regards to SWG, I'd same the gameplay was pretty easy / non-hardcore. It had some hardcore penalties (degrading equipment, wounds / fatigue, loss of xp as a jedi) but the majority of the difficulty in SWG was in understanding the meta-game.
It took genuine skill to understand all the game's mechanics and then build a solid template for your needs. Of course, because it was the meta-game, it meant that everyone could just look up the best templates, but if you took the time to learn it yourself you could come up with some interesting templates. Actually fighting, though, was pretty straight forwards. In PvE, for example, I just had two macros set up in game - one to aoe, one single target. I'd enter combat, start the macro and just run round. Interupt every now and again to heal / stand up etc, but pretty damn easy. PvP was much the same, just with more variety, but as a swordsman it was mostly just spamming mind attacks.
I don't really know what to suggest these days as I don't play any MMOs atm. There are probably some hardcore niche MMOs out there but the AAA games have mostly gotten rid of any difficult content. Wildstar was supposed to have a hardcore endgame with 40man raids and progressively more difficult tiers for each, but I hear its been nerfed a lot and group size has dropped for raids. ESO has an interesting meta-game and is quite time consuming to reach best skills/gear, but actual gameplay is pretty straight forwards.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Comments
some would say too much was when two computers connected together and people started playing games sitting in chairs instead of going outside to actually use RL LFG tools.
raids is sooooo 10 years ago
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
not sure I can help your quoted question but I can help with MMOs where you need to put in the time.
Eve (but only when it comes to making money)
Darkfall
Wurm Online
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
the ongoing assumption here on this thread is that Sandbox is 'non-casual'.
there I gave it to you ....attack away
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I think Wurm Online might be the only deeply created sandbox game that doesnt have the asshat pvp unless you want it. that is a small list...1
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
SWG was hardcore though.
So with your definition there are few hardcore games around, like Wildstar. Seems like GW2 might move in that direction as well. The way I see hardcore games there basically are 3 in alpha state: Pantheon, Shards online and Crowfall.
But there are a few games that should work for you, WS is free and the newest so give it a shot first and see if it works for you. It needs all the players it can get.
1. its not the same map (which ticked me off!)
2. skilling up even by default is MUCH faster, so are some actions.
but yeah its still the year of 2000 looking game but I personally love it. I would say if you have played it for around 20 hours that is all you need to know if you are going to like it or not, online or unlimited doesnt matter
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
But no one says devs need to cater to those people.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
And? Personal discipline, patience, and game knowledge are as much skills as being a twitch king or whatever.
- Haven and Hearth as something small but really good (actually i think it took what UO had and added more).
can solo to max level on any class
autogrouping
gear is color marked because people can't read
travel is super easy
no serious death penalty
xp is super easy to get
completely invulnerable during corpse run
some of the easiest raids in any game
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Is it time based? e.g. games where you need to spend 10-15 hours a week online to remain competitive / at the top?
Is it difficulty based? e.g. games where you need to be intelligent in order to be successful?
Is it mechanics based? e.g. games with harsh death penalties, pvp looting etc?
For me, casual / hardcore has never been about time spent, its more about approach to the game combined with actual difficulty. Actual difficulty in a combination of mechanics / depth combined with your own intelligence.
For example, I found SW:TOR to be crazy easy. The mechanics were very simple to understand, group dynamics were extremely limited (just aggro / dps / heals) and each class basically played the same - generic rotation + emergency skills. Didn't really need to be clever or spend much time to "master" each class.
However, the vast majority of people I met in SW:TOR (and every mmo tbh) didn't have the capacity to fully understand the games mechanics, or just didn't even try to learn. They could look up optimal rotations and follow them but lacked the ability to experiment and come up with their own, or even understand why some rotations are better than others. That meant to them, the endgame was difficult and could be considered hardcore, but for people like me it felt boring due to being too easy.
With regards to SWG, I'd same the gameplay was pretty easy / non-hardcore. It had some hardcore penalties (degrading equipment, wounds / fatigue, loss of xp as a jedi) but the majority of the difficulty in SWG was in understanding the meta-game.
It took genuine skill to understand all the game's mechanics and then build a solid template for your needs. Of course, because it was the meta-game, it meant that everyone could just look up the best templates, but if you took the time to learn it yourself you could come up with some interesting templates. Actually fighting, though, was pretty straight forwards. In PvE, for example, I just had two macros set up in game - one to aoe, one single target. I'd enter combat, start the macro and just run round. Interupt every now and again to heal / stand up etc, but pretty damn easy. PvP was much the same, just with more variety, but as a swordsman it was mostly just spamming mind attacks.
I don't really know what to suggest these days as I don't play any MMOs atm. There are probably some hardcore niche MMOs out there but the AAA games have mostly gotten rid of any difficult content. Wildstar was supposed to have a hardcore endgame with 40man raids and progressively more difficult tiers for each, but I hear its been nerfed a lot and group size has dropped for raids. ESO has an interesting meta-game and is quite time consuming to reach best skills/gear, but actual gameplay is pretty straight forwards.