Well, we know they are only making around 15-20% of the content for raiding with most of the focus on group game, so if the game is as hard and slow as it was in EQ, most of the people who don't have time to competitive raid won't even be at the end game anyway.
Casual guilds will likely have to wait for new content to come out and spur the players who do have the time on into new goals. If content is released in a timely manner like it was in EQ, then you will likely find that there is a ton of content for you to experience while the top end guilds chasing the end game raids are off doing the latest content.
Question is, can people wait or will the throw tantrums demanding they be able to do the latest content with all those who have massive amounts of time? This is where I see the "going down the mainstream path" problem come about. In EQ, those of us who had careers and families didn't have the time to put in for the whole contested raid content, so we took what we could get when it was available and this took time.
As long as people are willing to accept such, then there shouldn't be an issue other than the other things brought up which are due to systems.
Sure this is all true, as far as people being able to contain their behavior as well as have patience, that certainly is "the question" haha.. I'm not the achiever type, it always takes me forever to hit cap in level based games, so I really have no worries about running out of things to do, I'm more into just running around with my wife and a few friends just doing whatever we can together at this stage of my gaming life.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
This is entering into the realm of extreme conjecture, because there are so many unknowns. First, comparing this to Wildstar is like comparing an assembled car to a pile of parts. People weren't excited about Wildstar even in beta. Pantheon is just a framework with some screenshots and ideas at this point. Who is really going to get that excited about that outside of the biggest fans of those ideas. Ideas just aren't enough for most people.
As far as how popular the game has to be, I'd say it doesn't have to be that popular to sustain it. If they had even 10 servers with 3k players on each, thats almost half a million a month. While that might seem like peanuts to a triple A studio, to a small indie crew with ~25 people, I'm guessing that would be more than enough to keep the lights on and fund further development. This is a lot of guesswork though.
Personally, if they deliver the game they are advertising, I don't believe popularity will be an issue. The real question is how long, how much ($) and how well they deliver on this intended design.
Sure, it was most certainly conjecture, yet I do have to say; that's where the concern comes from as ideas do spark debate, CU, Crowfall, and a few others are always being discussed.
Hence the comparison to wildstar, it was based on the interest people seemingly have in it, not the game in any way. It (WS) really didn't even have trolls coming over to mess with the fans on a regular basis ( the only real drama I remember seeing was the ESO vs WS nonsense, most of that was on the ESO forum though).
That's one similarity, not that that's a bad thing for people who want to discuss the game of course (less drama). It does say how pertinent a game is to the overall community though. If people don't even want to be negative about it, it says it's off most peoples radar to me.
On top of the kickstarter failing it just seems for some reason or another the game isn't getting much attention at all, while raiding is only a small percentage of the overall focus, just about all dialogue is on "hardcore" play. I guess you could say that's another similarity.One could wonder if that term just turns people away.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
On top of the kickstarter failing it just seems for some reason or another the game isn't getting much attention at all, while raiding is only a small percentage of the overall focus, just about all dialogue is on "hardcore" play. I guess you could say that's another similarity.One could wonder if that term just turns people away.
I don't expect they could say or do anything that would create attention until they've actually exhibited the gameplay. At this point, they've shown some great screenshots and given us a great list of features and ideas, but until those things actually translate to some videos demonstrating the classes, mechanics and their ability to deliver, there won't likely be much excitement.
Just to clarify, I'm not in any way doubting VR, only stating that once pre-alpha has begun and they're able to actually showcase those things is when people will start to speak up, be it positive or negative. Right now there just isn't enough to go on.
2. Non instanced raids, in which case you need to have enough raid content that no one guild can lock it all down. I.e. in EQ, if guild A was out killing naggy, guild b could (hypothetically) kill vox because guild A couldn't be at two places at the same time.
The issue with 2 is getting into spawn timers, whether they should be random or set, etc etc. If they're set, it allows a guild to know exactly when it will spawn again and be there and prepared before hand. If its random, then 1 uber guild can basically poopsock and manage to clean up most of the raid content because they have people stationed at the spawns waiting for it to pop so they can send out the batphone call.
This is an issue im really torn on, because I like competition in PVE raiding, however, it creates some seriously bad issues community wise. Which is why I am more leaning towards instanced raids with lockout timers.
Dungeons on the other hand, I think instancing is just bad. People aren't generally going to poopsock dungeon mobs as usually the min/maxers who are willing to spend 16 hours a day on a game want the best of the best items and those are and should be raid items.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
2. Non instanced raids, in which case you need to have enough raid content that no one guild can lock it all down. I.e. in EQ, if guild A was out killing naggy, guild b could (hypothetically) kill vox because guild A couldn't be at two places at the same time.
The issue with 2 is getting into spawn timers, whether they should be random or set, etc etc. If they're set, it allows a guild to know exactly when it will spawn again and be there and prepared before hand. If its random, then 1 uber guild can basically poopsock and manage to clean up most of the raid content because they have people stationed at the spawns waiting for it to pop so they can send out the batphone call.
This is an issue im really torn on, because I like competition in PVE raiding, however, it creates some seriously bad issues community wise. Which is why I am more leaning towards instanced raids with lockout timers.
Dungeons on the other hand, I think instancing is just bad. People aren't generally going to poopsock dungeon mobs as usually the min/maxers who are willing to spend 16 hours a day on a game want the best of the best items and those are and should be raid items.
I think you're looking at your raid proposals through EQ glasses. The status quo in Everquest was such because you were able to track the NPC when it spawned, or park a character within visual range. Either way the ability to know when a mob has spawned is something that was quite easy in Everquest. I think this needs to change, if not only for major boss mobs.
I think taking away the ability to track raid mobs, as well as making the area in which those mobs spawn so dangerous that it requires a small raid force to be able to see the spawn location, will fix the poopsocking issue. Now you may counter this argument like I did in my head with.. well then guilds will just put a raid force on every single spawn location... while that may be theoretically possible, it is simply not realistic.
I'm not saying this is a solve-all solution, but it is a start. Any ideas otherthan instancing or creating a system like Vanguard had where a boss respawned every hour and basically had an instance lockout timer on it if you killed it... which is basically instancing to me because it creates a system where an unlimited amount of gear can enter the market/server at any time, are very much welcome.
People aren't generally going to poopsock dungeon mobs as usually the min/maxers who are willing to spend 16 hours a day on a game want the best of the best items and those are and should be raid items.
They do all the time and did quite often in EQ. In fact, it is some of the primary means to earning income in the game and common practice for gold farmers. /shrug
Contested raiding content is for those who have no time based responsibility. It is for those with no jobs, or retired, kids, students with lots of free time, etc... The fact is, they will ALWAYS have the time to be first and those who think they are going to compete? Sorry, not going to happen.
I was not a child when EQ was released, I worked a demanding profession and had family responsibilities long before EQ was conceived. I did not raid to any competitive means in EQ because of it, but I played what I could, accepted what I could. The only time I actually was able to raid with any consistency was when I moved to the Legends server where they had guild rotations on raid tiers so you could plan your raid days.
So, if people are looking to "make things equal or balanced" with those who have no time based responsibility, then they will be severely disappointed as it can not be done and still be competitive in the way we know EQ to be. They have the time, they will always have the time to sit and "poopsock" the spawns. People need to accept this or accept that contested content may not always be ideal in every situation.
In group content, it works ok because the spawns are very short (ie 15-30 min re-spawn or so). This means items are more likely to drop more often and the result is players move on once they obtain them (providing it isn't perm-camped by people selling on the market which is a issue). So a diligent player can eventually get a chance at the spawn even if they have life responsibilities.
Raid content has a long re-spawn timer. Old EQ was around 7 days + 72 hours random timer. So one spawn a week is a very long timer which means those who are perm-camping it are essentially blocking content. Thing is, there is no solution that will stop the people who have time to spawn camp and take down the content. Those people will ALWAYS be in control of the spawns.
So either we accept that or we look at other possibilities of making raid content not contested.
Instancing is not a good idea. It may solve the contested content problem, but it creates a new one by increasing the number of items into the game by the number of raid instances that are created. So, you trade a small problem for an enormous problem.
Putting in all kinds of things like stopping tracking, making areas where it is impossible to get in without a raid group etc... won't stop people from finding out, it won't solve the raid camping and it may create a lot more problems.
As I have mentioned before, I think EQs Legend servers system worked quite well and it solved all the contested content problems, but did not add new ones that instances and various deterrent mechanics would.
You had guilds staying up all night..................and I mean all night, from dusk till dawn...........to get some spawns. I don't think anyone still wishes to do that.
Ok, I like some difficulty in MMO, but I have a life too.
there were no old people back then and there are no teenagers now or...is there no dusk/dawn now and there was then or...maybe...
LIFE was much quicker back then so you had more time to play games but with today's slowdown in daily life it takes increasingly longer to achieve the same goals in the time you were able to back then, leaving less time to dedicate to gaming.
95% of EQ's raids are in instances
"back then", the overwhelming majority of raid guild supported instancing raids
in FACT, it was implemented ON REQUEST of raiders
if raiding from 8 in the evening to 6 in the morning and sleeping during the day...is your idea of fun....then go play a game like that, sane people don't think this is fun
some of the guild requirements prior to instancing...was not how well you played...but how little of a life you had...the best raiders were people who didn't have a job, school or family...and could permacamp mobs 24/7
and everyone else on the server was running two expansions behind, because you have no-lifers blocking every raid
You had guilds staying up all night..................and I mean all night, from dusk till dawn...........to get some spawns. I don't think anyone still wishes to do that.
Ok, I like some difficulty in MMO, but I have a life too.
there were no old people back then and there are no teenagers now or...is there no dusk/dawn now and there was then or...maybe...
LIFE was much quicker back then so you had more time to play games but with today's slowdown in daily life it takes increasingly longer to achieve the same goals in the time you were able to back then, leaving less time to dedicate to gaming.
95% of EQ's raids are in instances
"back then", the overwhelming majority of raids guild supported instancing raids
in FACT, it was implemented ON REQUEST of raiders
Instances increase the gear drops too much, making the rarity of item drops meaningless.
The only compensation would be to make items extremely rare off the raid bosses, meaning you might kill a boss multiple times and get nothing to balance the influx of items into the game world.
Instances will bring far more problems than they solve.
Just by making the world raid bosses roamers and spawn at random locations and random times will fix some of the drama.
lol, that will only make the drama worse
Every MMO nowadays has hacks that just keep an eye out for spawns. In EQ it was called macroquest.
No one actually went to look if a mob had spawned, you just zoned in, pulled up your macroquest utility and the map showed if there was a mob and where. You could set the hack to warn you if a mob had spawned, you didn't even needed to be at your PC.
That's not a solution.
It also really doesn't fix any issues at all, it actually makes the issues worse.
Instances increase the gear drops too much, making the rarity of item drops meaningless.
That doesn't make sense, instanced raids in EQ have lockout timers.
Single raid mob on a contested content server. Lets say there are 10 guilds able to kill this raid mob. One guild kills it and all the guilds have to wait 7 days or so for it to spawn again. So, lets say that this raid mob drops 4 items. That is 4 items brought into the game every 7 days.
Now, a raid instance spawns for each guild (ie a raid mob for every instance) and has a lockout timer of 7 days. So those 10 guilds kill 10 raid mobs and each get 4 items per kill. That is 40 items brought into the game every 7 days.
Single raid mob on a contested content server. Lets say there are 10 guilds able to kill this raid mob. One guild kills it and all the guilds have to wait 7 days or so for it to spawn again. So, lets say that this raid mob drops 4 items. That is 4 items brought into the game every 7 days.
Now, a raid instance spawns for each guild (ie a raid mob for every instance) and has a lockout timer of 7 days. So those 10 guilds kill 10 raid mobs and each get 4 items per kill. That is 40 items brought into the game every 7 days.
See the problem?
In theory yes...however that's not how it works in practice in EQ.
Because of instancing there are now many different tiers, most guilds on the same server aren't even fighting the same mobs.
Each EQ expansion has about 4 tiers. No one is going into the same instances each day.
It also depends on the basic question....do you want everyone to be able to raid?
Raiding used to be a rarity in Everquest. Even during instanced raiding.
If you had your epic 2.0 during OOW, you were looked upon as a God in Everquest. That's not the case in WoW where hundreds of guilds are beating the expansion.
Single raid mob on a contested content server. Lets say there are 10 guilds able to kill this raid mob. One guild kills it and all the guilds have to wait 7 days or so for it to spawn again. So, lets say that this raid mob drops 4 items. That is 4 items brought into the game every 7 days.
Now, a raid instance spawns for each guild (ie a raid mob for every instance) and has a lockout timer of 7 days. So those 10 guilds kill 10 raid mobs and each get 4 items per kill. That is 40 items brought into the game every 7 days.
See the problem?
In theory yes...however that's not how it works in practice in EQ.
Because of instancing there are now many different tiers, most guilds on the same server aren't even fighting the same mobs.
Each EQ expansion has about 4 tiers. No one is going into the same instances each day.
It also depends on the basic question....do you want everyone to be able to raid?
Raiding used to be a rarity in Everquest. Even during instanced raiding.
If you had your epic 2.0 during OOW, you were looked upon as a God in Everquest. That's not the case in WoW where hundreds of guilds are beating the expansion.
Actually, it is in practice. The entire point of instancing is to allow multiple guilds to go after the same target without having to compete.
The number of tiers is irrelevant. Your argument here is that because there are more targets, people aren't needing to do the same targets. If that is true, then there is no need for instances as everyone would still have a target. We both know that if there is contested content, there would not be more available targets, which is why the argument for instances is made, to allow for more of the same targets.
Besides, look at the TLP servers, Phinny has repeat broadcasts of the same boss defeats. So yes, there are different guilds doing the same instances daily . Obviously with increased targets and tiers this will reduce, but people will still be doing the same bosses. Also keep in mind that Pantheon will not begin with EQs content. Think back to release EQ where there were only a few bosses. With instancing, there will be numerous people doing the same content at the same time.
As for your question? Do you want contested content? Do you want item rarity? (I will get to your answer in a second) If your point is that everyone should be able to kill any mob at any time and gain the same items equally, then you are not arguing for contested content and/or EQ rarity and value of items, you are arguing for WoW. Point is, in a contested content game, no... not everyone should be able to gain the same target always. They will have to wait, compete to get the spawn, get lucky, or... with my example "get in line" so to speak. The issue is not if, but when.
That is the point I was making about loot. Instancing produces loot directly proportional to the number of instances. With the non-instanced content, the items produced are limited to single mobs drops for every 7 days. With the instanced content, the items produced are only limited by the number of raids that create instances. The amount of loot produced is substantially more than the non-instanced.
There will be 100s of guilds beating the same exact raids at the same time (ie more often than if they had to wait/compete for each single spawn cycle) if you allow instances in Pantheon, many guilds will be doing the multiple instances of the same raid content rather than a single one. The reason the epics were so coveted is because the raid mobs needed were extensively camped making it so only a single person every spawn cycle was able to gain the item. Instances remove that rarity.
The entire point of instancing is to allow multiple guilds to go after the same target without having to compete.
Not really, the point was to stop the drama, to stop the GM having to intervene every 2 minutes and to cut the amount of development cost needed to make a massive world.
Loot isn't less rare just because you use instances, it's actually a kind of an odd argument that I haven't seen anyone else claim before.
If loot is rare or not can be easily changed in instanced raids, you can change the lockout time, you can make the drop more rare, you can make the instance more difficult, etc.
Actually, it is in practice. The entire point of instancing is to allow multiple guilds to go after the same target without having to compete.
Not really, the point was to stop the drama, to stop the GM having to intervene every 2 minutes and to cut the amount of development cost needed to make a massive world.
Which is created because people are trying to compete over getting the same mob which the instancing solves by allowing different guilds to kill the same mob in different instances.
As I said, instances increase the amount of loot brought into the game far over that of non-instanced.
You can achieve the same results in what EQ did with the Legends server and not have a massive increase in loot brought into the world.
I'm apprehensive when I read the word "contested raids". There are some open world raids in Everquest that worked, like Cipheron, Cyno, anything in Relic. But this was because they're low tier raids. All higher-end raids were instanced, and GM banned trouble makers and the game was mature enough that there were agreements between guilds.
Prior to this, all old world raids were open world, and this resulted in unbelievable server drama. I'm not into PVP and griefing drama between guilds.
Every classic EQ server has nasty server drama early on, until the server approaches expansions that allow for instanced content, one of the reasons I won't play on them. I'm not into PVP or server drama.
When a new classic server opens, 2 things happen because content isn't instanced yet.
either
A: There is non-stop drama because guilds fight over naggy and vox B: There is non-stop drama because one guild has naggy and vox on lockdown
Both these scenarios always end with many players leaving the server.
If they do it right, we should not see monopolization of spawns as it existed on live servers. There are too many ways to combat it. For instance, to track raid bosses in EQ, you simply kept timers and that led to multiple guilds of people showing up at the next spawn, arguing over who was there first and who had the right to engage. To combat the worst bottlenecks, they created spawn variance, but that just caused players to leave a character with track nearby or in visual range of the mob. The process of determining whether a raid target is up should therefore be more challenging and time consuming to reward the most diligent guilds while also providing a window for other guilds to pursue other alternatives.
Addressing each of those issues, I would make sure 1) each spawn had variance of several days (on non-PvP servers), 2) the area around the boss would be extremely dangerous, preventing a single player or small force from running in and checking whether a boss was spawned, also preventing characters from camping in visual range of the mob, 3) the raid target would not show up on track and 4) every so often there would be server resets that would guarantee every raid boss in the world respawned, allowing multiple guilds a chance to down targets.
These things would make locking down multiple bosses extremely problematic, as a guild would have to take a force in just to see if a mob was spawned.
Ultimately, the most motivated guilds will get the most raid targets, but at least this system requires a guild to devote time and manpower to checking raid spawns, affording other guilds with the opportunity to check different spawns. Server reset days also provide a chance for less organized guilds to pick a target (just like patch day on EQ live servers).
The truth about drama though, is that it didn't cause most players to "leave the server" in EQ. It was the nature of the game, and was accepted as such. People have to realize that, if they don't actually want competition in their MMO, they should avoid that aspect of the game or even consider the possibility that such a game is not being created for them.
To me, the competition and drama was much of the reason EQ was so memorable. You had your allies, your true friends and your villains. Those politics are part of what made the world come to life.
Your last two paragraphs are 100% completely true and I 100% completely agree. These type of engagements with other players that you knew made it memorable. You actually knew people on your server, you got to know who the good, nice players were, the bad villainous assholes, etc, etc. Instancing/cross-server stuff absolutely KILLED any chance of forming these types of communities and forming any sort of bonds between people in the server/community. To this very day I can name a ton of players on Tunare server who I played with for many years, the bad ones, the good ones, the assholes, the people who went out of their way to help, I have TONS of memories because it was non-instanced and community based. THIS is what we need again, this is what made EQ so memorable, and when games went away from this, it killed any sense of a server comrardery or community.
This all carried over into the raiding scene.
Dullahan, man you have some damn nice ideas which I support. Good job man.
not everyone should be able to gain the same target always. They will have to wait, compete to get the spawn, get lucky, or... with my example "get in line" so to speak
That's what almost killed EQ 16 years ago.
That's why EQ implemented instances.
If you think PVE players are going to accept PVP fights and PVP griefing over spawns, staying up all night to get a chance to raid... waiting months before the top guild has got their items...you are delusional.
Players didn't accept it 16 years ago, they will certainly not accept it today.
not everyone should be able to gain the same target always. They will have to wait, compete to get the spawn, get lucky, or... with my example "get in line" so to speak
That's what almost killed EQ 16 years ago.
That's why EQ implemented instances.
If you think PVE players are going to accept fighting over spawns, staying up all night, waiting months before the top guild has got their items...you are delusional
I didn't argue that.
My point was that instances greatly increase the number of loot into the game over non-instanced. You took issue with that.
I can log into Phinny and see multiple guilds killing the same raid mobs.
Phinny is a classic server, it has nothing to do with EQ of today. And all classic servers are infested with drama, they are a disgrace.
You are missing the point. I even clarified it to you in that same discussion. EQ today has a ton more content than EQ of the past. The reason you are seeing the problems on the Phinny server is because there are limited raid targets and so the problem I pointed out to you exists.
Pantheon will be like Phinny in that it will have limited content at release and will take years before you can compare it to EQ Today's content.
Do you understand my point?
Also, Phinny isn't a classic server, it is just a TLP server. It is the same exact game as today, but time locked progression on its features and some minor tuning to exp, etc...
Again....
Instanced raid produce much more item drops than non-instanced content which removes the point of item rarity.
If a solo player gets any type of a break, be it a lower death penalty or a mini-map or an exclamation point or fast travel or whatever, pitchforks and torches we're dumbing down the game and making it easy.
But when it comes to raiding, we want boss mobs that roll down a conveyor belt?
Why wouldn't the hard-mode philosophy go all the way to the end game?
Because people will fight and complain? Solo players complained constantly about ksers in EQ1, and that was never fixed. But then EQ2 fixed it and was mocked for the effort. So people complaining isn't the issue, surely?
And how many times have we said that the game doesn't need a coding solution, because the player community will prevail and miscreants will be ostracized?
Someone might argue it is a double standard.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Comments
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Sure, it was most certainly conjecture, yet I do have to say; that's where the concern comes from as ideas do spark debate, CU, Crowfall, and a few others are always being discussed.
Hence the comparison to wildstar, it was based on the interest people seemingly have in it, not the game in any way. It (WS) really didn't even have trolls coming over to mess with the fans on a regular basis ( the only real drama I remember seeing was the ESO vs WS nonsense, most of that was on the ESO forum though).
That's one similarity, not that that's a bad thing for people who want to discuss the game of course (less drama). It does say how pertinent a game is to the overall community though. If people don't even want to be negative about it, it says it's off most peoples radar to me.
On top of the kickstarter failing it just seems for some reason or another the game isn't getting much attention at all, while raiding is only a small percentage of the overall focus, just about all dialogue is on "hardcore" play. I guess you could say that's another similarity.One could wonder if that term just turns people away.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Just to clarify, I'm not in any way doubting VR, only stating that once pre-alpha has begun and they're able to actually showcase those things is when people will start to speak up, be it positive or negative. Right now there just isn't enough to go on.
IMO you have one of two options.
1. Instanced raids with lockout timers.
2. Non instanced raids, in which case you need to have enough raid content that no one guild can lock it all down. I.e. in EQ, if guild A was out killing naggy, guild b could (hypothetically) kill vox because guild A couldn't be at two places at the same time.
The issue with 2 is getting into spawn timers, whether they should be random or set, etc etc. If they're set, it allows a guild to know exactly when it will spawn again and be there and prepared before hand. If its random, then 1 uber guild can basically poopsock and manage to clean up most of the raid content because they have people stationed at the spawns waiting for it to pop so they can send out the batphone call.
This is an issue im really torn on, because I like competition in PVE raiding, however, it creates some seriously bad issues community wise. Which is why I am more leaning towards instanced raids with lockout timers.
Dungeons on the other hand, I think instancing is just bad. People aren't generally going to poopsock dungeon mobs as usually the min/maxers who are willing to spend 16 hours a day on a game want the best of the best items and those are and should be raid items.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I think taking away the ability to track raid mobs, as well as making the area in which those mobs spawn so dangerous that it requires a small raid force to be able to see the spawn location, will fix the poopsocking issue. Now you may counter this argument like I did in my head with.. well then guilds will just put a raid force on every single spawn location... while that may be theoretically possible, it is simply not realistic.
I'm not saying this is a solve-all solution, but it is a start. Any ideas other than instancing or creating a system like Vanguard had where a boss respawned every hour and basically had an instance lockout timer on it if you killed it... which is basically instancing to me because it creates a system where an unlimited amount of gear can enter the market/server at any time, are very much welcome.
I was not a child when EQ was released, I worked a demanding profession and had family responsibilities long before EQ was conceived. I did not raid to any competitive means in EQ because of it, but I played what I could, accepted what I could. The only time I actually was able to raid with any consistency was when I moved to the Legends server where they had guild rotations on raid tiers so you could plan your raid days.
So, if people are looking to "make things equal or balanced" with those who have no time based responsibility, then they will be severely disappointed as it can not be done and still be competitive in the way we know EQ to be. They have the time, they will always have the time to sit and "poopsock" the spawns. People need to accept this or accept that contested content may not always be ideal in every situation.
In group content, it works ok because the spawns are very short (ie 15-30 min re-spawn or so). This means items are more likely to drop more often and the result is players move on once they obtain them (providing it isn't perm-camped by people selling on the market which is a issue). So a diligent player can eventually get a chance at the spawn even if they have life responsibilities.
Raid content has a long re-spawn timer. Old EQ was around 7 days + 72 hours random timer. So one spawn a week is a very long timer which means those who are perm-camping it are essentially blocking content. Thing is, there is no solution that will stop the people who have time to spawn camp and take down the content. Those people will ALWAYS be in control of the spawns.
So either we accept that or we look at other possibilities of making raid content not contested.
Instancing is not a good idea. It may solve the contested content problem, but it creates a new one by increasing the number of items into the game by the number of raid instances that are created. So, you trade a small problem for an enormous problem.
Putting in all kinds of things like stopping tracking, making areas where it is impossible to get in without a raid group etc... won't stop people from finding out, it won't solve the raid camping and it may create a lot more problems.
As I have mentioned before, I think EQs Legend servers system worked quite well and it solved all the contested content problems, but did not add new ones that instances and various deterrent mechanics would.
"back then", the overwhelming majority of raid guild supported instancing raids
in FACT, it was implemented ON REQUEST of raiders
if raiding from 8 in the evening to 6 in the morning and sleeping during the day...is your idea of fun....then go play a game like that, sane people don't think this is fun
some of the guild requirements prior to instancing...was not how well you played...but how little of a life you had...the best raiders were people who didn't have a job, school or family...and could permacamp mobs 24/7
and everyone else on the server was running two expansions behind, because you have no-lifers blocking every raid
The only compensation would be to make items extremely rare off the raid bosses, meaning you might kill a boss multiple times and get nothing to balance the influx of items into the game world.
Instances will bring far more problems than they solve.
Every MMO nowadays has hacks that just keep an eye out for spawns. In EQ it was called macroquest.
No one actually went to look if a mob had spawned, you just zoned in, pulled up your macroquest utility and the map showed if there was a mob and where. You could set the hack to warn you if a mob had spawned, you didn't even needed to be at your PC.
That's not a solution.
It also really doesn't fix any issues at all, it actually makes the issues worse.
Single raid mob on a contested content server. Lets say there are 10 guilds able to kill this raid mob. One guild kills it and all the guilds have to wait 7 days or so for it to spawn again. So, lets say that this raid mob drops 4 items. That is 4 items brought into the game every 7 days.
Now, a raid instance spawns for each guild (ie a raid mob for every instance) and has a lockout timer of 7 days. So those 10 guilds kill 10 raid mobs and each get 4 items per kill. That is 40 items brought into the game every 7 days.
See the problem?
Because of instancing there are now many different tiers, most guilds on the same server aren't even fighting the same mobs.
Each EQ expansion has about 4 tiers. No one is going into the same instances each day.
It also depends on the basic question....do you want everyone to be able to raid?
Raiding used to be a rarity in Everquest. Even during instanced raiding.
If you had your epic 2.0 during OOW, you were looked upon as a God in Everquest. That's not the case in WoW where hundreds of guilds are beating the expansion.
Actually, it is in practice. The entire point of instancing is to allow multiple guilds to go after the same target without having to compete.
The number of tiers is irrelevant. Your argument here is that because there are more targets, people aren't needing to do the same targets. If that is true, then there is no need for instances as everyone would still have a target. We both know that if there is contested content, there would not be more available targets, which is why the argument for instances is made, to allow for more of the same targets.
Besides, look at the TLP servers, Phinny has repeat broadcasts of the same boss defeats. So yes, there are different guilds doing the same instances daily . Obviously with increased targets and tiers this will reduce, but people will still be doing the same bosses. Also keep in mind that Pantheon will not begin with EQs content. Think back to release EQ where there were only a few bosses. With instancing, there will be numerous people doing the same content at the same time.
As for your question? Do you want contested content? Do you want item rarity? (I will get to your answer in a second) If your point is that everyone should be able to kill any mob at any time and gain the same items equally, then you are not arguing for contested content and/or EQ rarity and value of items, you are arguing for WoW. Point is, in a contested content game, no... not everyone should be able to gain the same target always. They will have to wait, compete to get the spawn, get lucky, or... with my example "get in line" so to speak. The issue is not if, but when.
That is the point I was making about loot. Instancing produces loot directly proportional to the number of instances. With the non-instanced content, the items produced are limited to single mobs drops for every 7 days. With the instanced content, the items produced are only limited by the number of raids that create instances. The amount of loot produced is substantially more than the non-instanced.
There will be 100s of guilds beating the same exact raids at the same time (ie more often than if they had to wait/compete for each single spawn cycle) if you allow instances in Pantheon, many guilds will be doing the multiple instances of the same raid content rather than a single one. The reason the epics were so coveted is because the raid mobs needed were extensively camped making it so only a single person every spawn cycle was able to gain the item. Instances remove that rarity.
Loot isn't less rare just because you use instances, it's actually a kind of an odd argument that I haven't seen anyone else claim before.
If loot is rare or not can be easily changed in instanced raids, you can change the lockout time, you can make the drop more rare, you can make the instance more difficult, etc.
As I said, instances increase the amount of loot brought into the game far over that of non-instanced.
You can achieve the same results in what EQ did with the Legends server and not have a massive increase in loot brought into the world.
Your last two paragraphs are 100% completely true and I 100% completely agree. These type of engagements with other players that you knew made it memorable. You actually knew people on your server, you got to know who the good, nice players were, the bad villainous assholes, etc, etc. Instancing/cross-server stuff absolutely KILLED any chance of forming these types of communities and forming any sort of bonds between people in the server/community. To this very day I can name a ton of players on Tunare server who I played with for many years, the bad ones, the good ones, the assholes, the people who went out of their way to help, I have TONS of memories because it was non-instanced and community based. THIS is what we need again, this is what made EQ so memorable, and when games went away from this, it killed any sense of a server comrardery or community.
This all carried over into the raiding scene.
Dullahan, man you have some damn nice ideas which I support. Good job man.
I can log into Phinny and see multiple guilds killing the same raid mobs.
Again, you are ignoring the entire point of instances which is allow each raid to do their own version of that raid mob.
The very logic of instances invalidate your argument here.
That's what almost killed EQ 16 years ago.
That's why EQ implemented instances.
If you think PVE players are going to accept PVP fights and PVP griefing over spawns, staying up all night to get a chance to raid... waiting months before the top guild has got their items...you are delusional.
Players didn't accept it 16 years ago, they will certainly not accept it today.
My point was that instances greatly increase the number of loot into the game over non-instanced. You took issue with that.
27 pages of whining about the raids and drama on the phinny server:
You are missing the point. I even clarified it to you in that same discussion. EQ today has a ton more content than EQ of the past. The reason you are seeing the problems on the Phinny server is because there are limited raid targets and so the problem I pointed out to you exists.
Pantheon will be like Phinny in that it will have limited content at release and will take years before you can compare it to EQ Today's content.
Do you understand my point?
Also, Phinny isn't a classic server, it is just a TLP server. It is the same exact game as today, but time locked progression on its features and some minor tuning to exp, etc...
Again....
Instanced raid produce much more item drops than non-instanced content which removes the point of item rarity.
Again, Instanced raid produce much more item drops than non-instanced content which removes the point of item rarity.
This was the point I originally made and you took issue with.
If a solo player gets any type of a break, be it a lower death penalty or a mini-map or an exclamation point or fast travel or whatever, pitchforks and torches we're dumbing down the game and making it easy.
But when it comes to raiding, we want boss mobs that roll down a conveyor belt?
Why wouldn't the hard-mode philosophy go all the way to the end game?
Because people will fight and complain? Solo players complained constantly about ksers in EQ1, and that was never fixed. But then EQ2 fixed it and was mocked for the effort. So people complaining isn't the issue, surely?
And how many times have we said that the game doesn't need a coding solution, because the player community will prevail and miscreants will be ostracized?
Someone might argue it is a double standard.
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