P2w and star citizen

Brenics

I love how they say you need to train so you can fly the ship so it isn't P2W.

Yet CR uses the SC pre pre Alpha mod as people can use that to train to fly. 

Just food for thought. 

Octagon7711

Quesa said:

YashaX said:

Shodanas said:

YashaX said:

I see all this heated debate about the management of SC and what not, but I rarely see anyone mention the massive P2W elements in the game even before it is launched. There is a lot of angst about mmos being P2W- especially Asian made mmos - but as far as I can see SC is a blatant and massive P2W cash grab on a scale I have not seen before, and yet no one seems to mention it.

I am not talking about whether its going to be released or the way kickstarter funds are used etc, I mean you can directly buy ships and so forth- ie directly buy power. I find it really strange that many people tout Western gamers' abhorrence of p2w, and yet a big upcoming title like this is possibly the most outrageous example of p2w to date but no one seems to mind?

Can you please provide us some links to these massive P2W elements ?

Thank you.

Buying ships with cash? 

The pledge ships won't last forever, they have limited (yet special duration) insurance.  I don't think there has been any real details aside from the purchase of a maximum amount of UEC per some time period.

Talonsin said:

DirtyDozen said:

Like EVE?  Where you can buy PLEX and sell it for ISK, and with that ISK buy ships?

Its a little different in Eve since just flying a ship does not mean you can actually use it very well.  In Eve, you have to train for the ships so you can not just buy a carrier and win, you have to train for it first.  Then you have to train for many months to work the shields, weapons and fighters.  A new person can not just come in with a month of gametime and BUY a winner. 

We dont know all the facts yet in Star Citizen but I am also worried that people who dropped thousands of dollars will dominate from day one. 

In Eve, it's not the skills a character has learned that is the deciding factor since you can openly trade/purchase characters for ISK as well as their new plans to allow people to unplug SP and sell it as raw SP.  What makes it not P2W is that all the gear in the world doesn't prepare you for the necessary skill and knowledge to engage in PvP thus why you see a thread or two every week on Reddit about how some PLEX warrior got raped as he undocked from Jita (safe space trade hub).

I think SC will have some of that as well.  It does take added skill to effectively pilot your ship in combat and you'll probably see the best pilots being those that know when to couple/decouple for maximum performance.  There are also a lot of things to do that don't involve piloting a ship, those things are the various careers and even manning turrets.   I think you'll find that most people will have ships but only a portion of those will be active at any given time as the game seems to be pushing co-op play more than solo dog-fighter play.

I could have sworn some early backers have life time insurance on their ships.  Plus insurance will be renewable.  Who would want to pay thousands of dollars for a temporary ship?

Arglebargle

Erillion said:

Leon1e said:

 unless you fly a stealth bomber all the time. 

Which is fun ;-)    (ex-ASCN Stealth Bomber Wing pilot)


Have fun

Ascension Island?

YashaX

adamlotus75 said:

lots of doublethink going on re: p2w.

On one hand, some are acting like there is no actual advantage to be gained across ships.

on the other hand, some are comparing stats between ships and theorycrafting which can beat which.  Hilariously they are sometimes doing it on price 'a $100 ship should not be able to beat a $350 ship'.  

So so some people are expecting that their ships will confer an advantage.  This is what they paid for.  Forget theoretical definitions this is actually happening.

newbies in starter ships are going to get relentlessly farmed when the game comes out.

No, its quite simple. As SC expert and magnificent baker Erillion has pointed out, SC is not p2w because you can get all the stuff in the cash shop in game. The video he kindly posted here conclusively proves that SC is not p2w and shows how SC's cash shop is basically just like LoL, which is one of the most popular competitive online games.

Sure people with big wallets will have an advantage at the start, flying around with capital class ships and what not, but that is clearly not p2w.

adamlotus75

Haha

Yeah.... Maybe I should revisit LoL in that case.... Seems like I will be able to drop say a grand and get a character that's 10x bigger than the others :-)

Octagon7711

Does that mean we should start complaining about gold sellers and bots now?  

BeansnBread

Octagon7711 said:

Does that mean we should start complaining about gold sellers and bots now?  

They don't need them since you can just buy the stuff directly from Star Citizen. It'll actually be a pretty good deterrent for excessive gold selling.

BeansnBread

Eadan1 said:

BeansnBread said:

Octagon7711 said:

Does that mean we should start complaining about gold sellers and bots now?  

They don't need them since you can just buy the stuff directly from Star Citizen. It'll actually be a pretty good deterrent for excessive gold selling.

They are selling gold to combat gold selling?. Do you guys even think about what you are saying? If anything CIG selling gold means they will have an incentive to make the grind boring so people use cash shop instead.

Actually, a lot of companies do this. They would rather be part of the solution than the problem. It is blatantly P2W, but if a consumer can get goods/gold through official channels for real money, people often shy away from buying gold from illegitimate ones. 

And yes, there will likely be quite a bit of grind to get people to use the cash shop.

adamlotus75

In ED I am currently saving up for an Asp, and one day want to fly an Anaconda.  Maybe Braben is a mug and should be selling them for $150 and $1000 respectively..!

(I'm very glad he's not)

Talonsin

If I paid $1000 for a ship and people who spent $65 could crush me, my whale behind would leave this game and never come back.  If my $1000 ship owns just about everyone who paid less than me, its P2W.  Either way, CIG had better do a fantastic job of balancing these ships or they will lose half their player base in the first quarter after release.

Colt47

At this point I've so lot track of what the heck is keeping this thread alive beyond pure narcissism.   O.o

BeansnBread

Eadan1 said:

BeansnBread said:

Eadan1 said:

BeansnBread said:

Octagon7711 said:

Does that mean we should start complaining about gold sellers and bots now?  

They don't need them since you can just buy the stuff directly from Star Citizen. It'll actually be a pretty good deterrent for excessive gold selling.

They are selling gold to combat gold selling?. Do you guys even think about what you are saying? If anything CIG selling gold means they will have an incentive to make the grind boring so people use cash shop instead.

Actually, a lot of companies do this. They would rather be part of the solution than the problem. It is blatantly P2W, but if a consumer can get goods/gold through official channels for real money, people often shy away from buying gold from illegitimate ones. 

And yes, there will likely be quite a bit of grind to get people to use the cash shop.

When you say illegitimate gold sellers, do you mean scammers? There isn't anything illegitimate about someone selling gold assuming they didn't bot or cheat to acquire it, and they aren't scammers.

I was talking about 3rd party gold sellers that sell gold for real money. When a company sells gold/goods officially, it detracts heavily from the 3rd party market. If people are given a safe, secure outlet to pay to get ahead, they often choose the official choice over the 3rd party choice even if the 3rd party deal is a bit better.

BeansnBread

Eadan1 said:

BeansnBread said:

I was talking about 3rd party gold sellers that sell gold for real money. When a company sells gold/goods officially, it detracts heavily from the 3rd party market. If people are given a safe, secure outlet to pay to get ahead, they often choose the official choice over the 3rd party choice even if the 3rd party deal is a bit better.

I don't think all 3rd party gold sellers will necesserily be illegitimate, i.e, illegal or untrustworthy. Anyway, if developers don't want people using 3rd party gold sellers, they should make their games less grindy. They are blaming all 3rd party gold sellers, when some are legit, when their design choices are what enables gold sellers.

Umm, ok. To you, there are legitimate 3rd party gold sellers. To me, there are not. The legality is unimportant to me. Who is to blame is unimportant to me. It goes against almost all games rules and guidelines and players are often banned if they are caught using them. 

The original point was that selling stuff officially will affect the 3rd party gold market. And it will. There will be a far smaller 3rd party gold seller market in the game if they sell a vast amount of in game items and possibly credits in their official shop (credits can potentially be gotten by selling a ship you bought in a shop).

And once again, I agree that they will create a grind to help sell stuff in their shop. I don't even really know what you are arguing about, really. 

Turrican187

This whole UEC Buying with $$$ and earning in game will not work out.
By Law they have to declare UEC as a real currency if they are selling it directly to people for $$$.
By earning them in game too they have to pay tax on every earned UEC coin that a player generated.

That's why in every game with a virtual buyable currency, this currency is never connected to an ingame earnable currency.

Octagon7711

I'd bet a quick google would show gold seller listings for this game even though the games not out yet.  I'm just saying it would be refreshing to see additional mechanics in place to deal with this sort of thing in advance. 

Adjuvant1

Turrican187 said:

This whole UEC Buying with $$$ and earning in game will not work out.
By Law they have to declare UEC as a real currency if they are selling it directly to people for $$$.
By earning them in game too they have to pay tax on every earned UEC coin that a player generated.

That's why in every game with a virtual buyable currency, this currency is never connected to an ingame earnable currency.

The issue with "invented currency" is this, there's nothing stopping the entity from, tomorrow, inflating the volume of said cyber currency to infinity, which basically, unsaid, it is without standard. If a company can tomorrow say, "yesterday there was 1 billion uec in circulation", then "today there is 1 trillion uec in circulation", then every uec has the value of 1/1000 uec the day prior. It becomes meaningless. This is why there's no legal basis on which to argue in a legitimate court "lost uec".

There is no regulated value of imaginary currency, so you cannot argue its value. CIG can't just argue they lost something, the whole thing is imaginary, based solely on what they say it's worth. That's not how the world works.

Truly, the economy is already "borked". The game doesn't even exist yet, and there are people illicitly "generating uec" by process of the in-game mechanisms.

goobsnews

I like how this is actually a debate. If this game actually coming out in some sort of form that isn't janky flying, clipping through walls/ships, fps that actually works, the game not being a giant turd, etc, I'm going to love all the crying of people trying to leave the starting area and just being wrecked by dozens of idris's just camping and pre firing into the ships as they load onto the platforms.

Erillion

goobsnews said:

I like how this is actually a debate. If this game actually coming out in some sort of form that isn't janky flying, clipping through walls/ships, fps that actually works, the game not being a giant turd, etc, I'm going to love all the crying of people trying to leave the starting area and just being wrecked by dozens of idris's just camping and pre firing into the ships as they load onto the platforms.

Has anyone ever told you about the no fire zones in Star Citizen ?


Have fun

goobsnews

Erillion said:

goobsnews said:

I like how this is actually a debate. If this game actually coming out in some sort of form that isn't janky flying, clipping through walls/ships, fps that actually works, the game not being a giant turd, etc, I'm going to love all the crying of people trying to leave the starting area and just being wrecked by dozens of idris's just camping and pre firing into the ships as they load onto the platforms.

Has anyone ever told you about the no fire zones in Star Citizen ?


Have fun

You mean the ones where people are hovering just out of then firing onto the landing platforms to kill the ships before they have a chance to take off? Yeah I've heard of them, apparently not doing so well either. Not to mention people just colliding into others in the cheapest ship you can buy just to grief people. Is that working as intended too Lando?

Erillion

goobsnews said:

You mean the ones where people are hovering just out of then firing onto the landing platforms to kill the ships before they have a chance to take off? Yeah I've heard of them, apparently not doing so well either. Not to mention people just colliding into others in the cheapest ship you can buy just to grief people. Is that working as intended too Lando?

Glad you asked. Happy to answer.

Actually yes, according to CIG it IS working as intended. They want to identify the typical griefing mechanisms
and gradually add elements to control it. May I point you to this question

(6:56) Q: What are your long term plans to deter or punish players for poor behaviour?

in this video blog.

http://imperialnews.network/2016/01/10-for-the-chairman-episode-75/


Have fun

CrazKanuk

goobsnews said:

Erillion said:

goobsnews said:

I like how this is actually a debate. If this game actually coming out in some sort of form that isn't janky flying, clipping through walls/ships, fps that actually works, the game not being a giant turd, etc, I'm going to love all the crying of people trying to leave the starting area and just being wrecked by dozens of idris's just camping and pre firing into the ships as they load onto the platforms.

Has anyone ever told you about the no fire zones in Star Citizen ?


Have fun

You mean the ones where people are hovering just out of then firing onto the landing platforms to kill the ships before they have a chance to take off? Yeah I've heard of them, apparently not doing so well either. Not to mention people just colliding into others in the cheapest ship you can buy just to grief people. Is that working as intended too Lando?

Lol, yes, because we should expect a new game, not even released, to solve griefing problems which have existed for like a decade in EVE. 

I'd call you Derek, but your arguments aren't intelligent enough. 

Iselin

Erillion said:

in this video blog.

You meant to say "TV Series" right?

Erillion

Iselin said:

Erillion said:

in this video blog.

You meant to say "TV Series" right?

Nope.

That URL does not lead directly to the video.   ;-)


Have fun

goobsnews

CrazKanuk said:

goobsnews said:

Erillion said:

goobsnews said:

I like how this is actually a debate. If this game actually coming out in some sort of form that isn't janky flying, clipping through walls/ships, fps that actually works, the game not being a giant turd, etc, I'm going to love all the crying of people trying to leave the starting area and just being wrecked by dozens of idris's just camping and pre firing into the ships as they load onto the platforms.

Has anyone ever told you about the no fire zones in Star Citizen ?


Have fun

You mean the ones where people are hovering just out of then firing onto the landing platforms to kill the ships before they have a chance to take off? Yeah I've heard of them, apparently not doing so well either. Not to mention people just colliding into others in the cheapest ship you can buy just to grief people. Is that working as intended too Lando?

Lol, yes, because we should expect a new game, not even released, to solve griefing problems which have existed for like a decade in EVE. 

I'd call you Derek, but your arguments aren't intelligent enough. 

Yeah, your only comebacks are accusing people of being Derek Smart or playing LoD, we get it. Get some help dude.

goobsnews

Erillion said:

goobsnews said:

You mean the ones where people are hovering just out of then firing onto the landing platforms to kill the ships before they have a chance to take off? Yeah I've heard of them, apparently not doing so well either. Not to mention people just colliding into others in the cheapest ship you can buy just to grief people. Is that working as intended too Lando?

Glad you asked. Happy to answer.

Actually yes, according to CIG it IS working as intended. They want to identify the typical griefing mechanisms
and gradually add elements to control it. May I point you to this question

(6:56) Q: What are your long term plans to deter or punish players for poor behaviour?

in this video blog.

http://imperialnews.network/2016/01/10-for-the-chairman-episode-75/


Have fun

Wow, suicide ramming ships and killing people at spawn is it working as intended? Amazing. Enjoy your gank fest.