Charge Back and Refunds

rpmcmurphy · April 2016

Armendius said:

The twists is what make it hard to convince if that was a goal to do.

If you open a discussion it would be an advice to not lock on one perspective and trash the other one as not right.
Thats why this is a discussion.

No one is wishing, pretending, convinceing.

We only seem to have a different vision in this discussion.

Dude, don't try and turn this on me

It was you that said "If you wish to believe that, it is in your right."
Any response about wishes are fair play from that point onwards.

I just happen to believe people need to be quite careful about declaring whether something falls outside of the scope of contract law or not. Do they have the position to say those things.

Nothing personal intended.

CrazKanuk · April 2016

rpmcmurphy said:

Wishing it is something that is clearly not is something I will leave up to others.

A game is for sale, there is an option to pay for it now with the intent of receiving it at a later date, that is precisely what a pre-order is.

If people want to use terminology to pretend it isn't a pre-order or isn't a sale then they have a hard job ahead of them in convincing others.

And you'll have a similar problem the other way. You should enlighten yourself with regards to crowdfunding. It's quite explicit that your funding doesn't guarantee any deliverable, other than an honest effort to create the product.

That's a bit different than a merchant accepting your money and holding it, in trust, as a presale for a product that they will be reselling.

Unfortunately if you cannot see the difference between the two, then you're quite right, it would be an uphill battle to explain it any more simple than that.

In the end, I think it's a lack of responsibility and accountability these days which is the problem. People are more interested in placing blame on someone else for their own poor decisions. Not just here, but it's pandemic all over North America. Can't speak much to other places, but it's ridiculous in North America at minimum.

spankybus · April 2016

The ability of people to willfully ignore a lifetime of experience and education and embrace a twisted interpretation of something so they might be considered 'right' in a discussion...I have no words, save these:

trans·ac·tion

tranˈsakSH(ə)n,tranˈzakSH(ə)n/

noun

noun: transaction; plural noun: transactions

an instance of buying or selling something; a business deal.
"in an ordinary commercial transaction a delivery date is essential"
synonyms: deal, business deal, undertaking, arrangement, bargain, negotiation,agreement, settlement;
proceedings
"property transactions"
- the action of conducting business.
  synonyms: conduct, carrying out, negotiation, performance, execution
  "the transaction of government business"
- an exchange or interaction between people.
  "intellectual transactions in the classroom"
- published reports of proceedings at the meetings of a learned society.
- an input message to a computer system that must be dealt with as a single unit of work.

do·na·tion

dōˈnāSH(ə)n/

noun

noun: donation; plural noun: donations

something that is given to a charity, especially a sum of money.
"a tax-deductible donation of $200"
synonyms: gift, contribution, present, pledge, handout, grant, offering; More
- the action of donating something.

Not sure about you, but I do not DONATE money to amazon.com so they can send me goods as a reward...I buy that sh*t. But, by all means, please call up the UNICEF and as them what they will send you for your Transaction to help starving kids in another country...

CIG is not a charity, its a developer looking to provide goods and/or services for cash. If you would like to play SC, BUY yourself a copy of either game, or maybe both. You get a ship, too! This is a transaction. This is no different to me than buying a game after it is finished. You are simply pre-ordering in the most extreme sense of the word. But you are providing money with the firm expectation of goods and/or services.

Now, having done this, you can buy more ships, if you choose. However, these ships will be available in-game. Frankly, at this point, you are just crazy...maybe even a sucker. I've done this....and i feel a bit crazy, perhaps a sucker. Buy you are buying future access to virtual goods. In this way, it is no different than pre-ordering digital movies on iTunes, save that buying virtual ships includes way more risk.

spankybus · April 2016

To the questions of chargebacks and/or refunds. Ugg, this gets complicated. But I would argue that when you give CIG cash, you are buying both goods and services. This is not unlike commissioning art, say a sculpture, i guess. You are paying for the artist to create the work, but you are also paying to keep the work. Think of anything that that had to be made for you at the time of your order. I want a custom birthday cake from a baker....again, paying for both the service and the goods that service created.

You have given money to CIG, stating, "I have given you this money, please go make this product for me."

To me it is as straightforward as that.

HOWEVER!

If the artist takes your money and doesn't deliver the promised sculpture or that Baker doesn't deliver your Birthday cake, you can sue their ass off. You SHOULD sue their ass off as they did not live up to their end of the transaction. It's ironic that the first definition of the word, "Transaction" I found on the internet contains this example:

"in an ordinary commercial transaction a delivery date is essential"

Now we get into a gray area. CIG has posted many "delivery dates' and had them come and go. Wee all understand that this happens in game development. However, some could argue that too much time has elapsed for the goods that the services they paid for were to provide. If CIG was not showing regular progress on the development of the game, I could see this as very cut-and-dry situation of failure to delivery promised goods.

But they are showing regular progress, albeit slower than i'd like. But again, this is game development. It is not as clear-cut as, say, building a house that is almost exactly like every other house your company has built over years of being in biz. Every game is unique and has issues during development. Nothing ever goes as fast as we want it to, ever.

TL;DR

With SC, you are buying services to create virtual goods. No different than my clients who pay me to create simulation/training materials. They pay me to make it, then they get to keep it.

If you wanna DONATE money to SC, they should should just mail CR envelopes of cash...let me give you that address ;-)

Armendius · April 2016

rpmcmurphy said:

Armendius said:

The twists is what make it hard to convince if that was a goal to do.

If you open a discussion it would be an advice to not lock on one perspective and trash the other one as not right.
Thats why this is a discussion.

No one is wishing, pretending, convinceing.

We only seem to have a different vision in this discussion.

Dude, don't try and turn this on me It was you that said "If you wish to believe that, it is in your right."
Any response about wishes are fair play from that point onwards.

I just happen to believe people need to be quite careful about declaring whether something falls outside of the scope of contract law or not. Do they have the position to say those things.

Nothing personal intended.

I can take and do not experience it as personal

Its just the whole atmosphere become dense.

If you read about how http://www.worldofcrowdfunding.com/ do it say the same as I said.
Kickstarter explain it abit difficult.
Same concept.

Nothing personally meant from me too, it is just I meant to help...
And sometime that is I speak with that something is not correct, digital world looks alot the same in many places, but thats the misleading part, where you believe something is the same.

rpmcmurphy · April 2016

CrazKanuk said:

rpmcmurphy said:

Wishing it is something that is clearly not is something I will leave up to others.

A game is for sale, there is an option to pay for it now with the intent of receiving it at a later date, that is precisely what a pre-order is.

If people want to use terminology to pretend it isn't a pre-order or isn't a sale then they have a hard job ahead of them in convincing others.

And you'll have a similar problem the other way. You should enlighten yourself with regards to crowdfunding. It's quite explicit that your funding doesn't guarantee any deliverable, other than an honest effort to create the product.

That's a bit different than a merchant accepting your money and holding it, in trust, as a presale for a product that they will be reselling.

Unfortunately if you cannot see the difference between the two, then you're quite right, it would be an uphill battle to explain it any more simple than that.

In the end, I think it's a lack of responsibility and accountability these days which is the problem. People are more interested in placing blame on someone else for their own poor decisions. Not just here, but it's pandemic all over North America. Can't speak much to other places, but it's ridiculous in North America at minimum.

It doesn't matter. Contract law applies regardless of whether people want to use crowdfunding as a clause.
It's like all the new silly patents that are suffixed with "on a computer/on the internet", they don't stand up to scrutiny and neither would the "via crowdfunding" should such things need to be determined in court.

In court, it would not be accepted that a company can hold money received for goods for an indefinite period, that would be outside the realms of what is considered reasonable satisfaction to fulfill your end of the contract. Which is why their ToS had dates in, the intital post kickstarter date and then the revised date ( next month iirc). It also explains why they are pushing hard to get 2.4 out so that they would be able to argue reasonable effort to uphold their end of the contract and therefore decline refunds.

I do agree that customers have a large duty to be more responsible and aware about what they are purchasing, at the same time, if a company changes things post-purchase it starts getting a bit more complicated.

Armendius · April 2016

You are not buying anything in crowfunding.
You only receive a reward.

At some crowdfunding websites you get to even keep every penny you collected from that campaign.
Even if the campaign failed to become 100%

It is designed with the mind that the name of the website itself grow, and the websites collect a tax. That is how they make money.
So basicly you use their name to get more attention to promote your own project, while at the same time of your set goal and duration in this campaign should be actively promoted to reach a better succes rate for it to reach 100%.

"should" its not a contract that you even have to, but with the mindset again that any person would believe more in your project by doing so, to pledge something with a reward in return to help you.

CrazKanuk · April 2016

rpmcmurphy said:

CrazKanuk said:

rpmcmurphy said:

Wishing it is something that is clearly not is something I will leave up to others.

A game is for sale, there is an option to pay for it now with the intent of receiving it at a later date, that is precisely what a pre-order is.

If people want to use terminology to pretend it isn't a pre-order or isn't a sale then they have a hard job ahead of them in convincing others.

And you'll have a similar problem the other way. You should enlighten yourself with regards to crowdfunding. It's quite explicit that your funding doesn't guarantee any deliverable, other than an honest effort to create the product.

That's a bit different than a merchant accepting your money and holding it, in trust, as a presale for a product that they will be reselling.

Unfortunately if you cannot see the difference between the two, then you're quite right, it would be an uphill battle to explain it any more simple than that.

In the end, I think it's a lack of responsibility and accountability these days which is the problem. People are more interested in placing blame on someone else for their own poor decisions. Not just here, but it's pandemic all over North America. Can't speak much to other places, but it's ridiculous in North America at minimum.

It doesn't matter. Contract law applies regardless of whether people want to use crowdfunding as a clause.
It's like all the new silly patents that are suffixed with "on a computer/on the internet", they don't stand up to scrutiny and neither would the "via crowdfunding" should such things need to be determined in court.

In court, it would not be accepted that a company can hold money received for goods for an indefinite period, that would be outside the realms of what is considered reasonable satisfaction to fulfill your end of the contract. Which is why their ToS had dates in, the intital post kickstarter date and then the revised date ( next month iirc). It also explains why they are pushing hard to get 2.4 out so that they would be able to argue reasonable effort to uphold their end of the contract and therefore decline refunds.

I do agree that customers have a large duty to be more responsible and aware about what they are purchasing, at the same time, if a company changes things post-purchase it starts getting a bit more complicated.

I totally agree with you with regards to laws and stuff (lol, stuff). I'm just saying that I don't think it is a "slam dunk" type of situation. There have been enough failures to date which haven't spawned any sort of legal action from backers that I just tend to believe that there is more to it than that. There must be some complexities that we simply aren't aware of. I'm not a lawyer, but knowing how litigation-happy the US is, I'm quite surprised that there have been zero lawsuits against Greedmonger or Divergence. As far as I'm aware, there was only one case which was taken to court, and in that case the person literally made no effort to produce the product and just took the money.

Yeah, my comment regarding responsibility was larger than gaming. It's the state of society more than anything. Suing McDonald's for making you fat, someone suing Fallout 4 because he's addicted to the game and lost his job after skipping work, robbers suing for medical bills after being shot, and the list goes on.

With regards to crowdfunding, specifically, people need to be more aware of the risks involved. That is assuming that they are NOT already aware of the risks. My guess is that they are well aware of the risks, but do so anyway knowing that they can simply exploit the systems in place to protect people. So, in time, these systems will be changed to address the way they are being exploited, which will only serve to hurt people who actually deserve to use it. In the end, if you view crowdfunding as anything more than a possibility of getting something cool in the end, just don't back anything, please.

rodarin · April 2016

Despite all the pseudo legal crap that people have been spewing the past few weeks and 18 pages the bottom line is you WILL get a chargeback (in the US anyway) you WILL NOT get a refund. Beyond that all this other shit is a waste of time.

So if you want money back just od a chargeback.

I suspect anyone that does want their money back has already done this anyway.

GrumpyHobbit · April 2016

LOL 18 pages to get to "yeah, whatever".

Armendius · April 2016

rodarin said:

Despite all the pseudo legal crap that people have been spewing the past few weeks and 18 pages the bottom line is you WILL get a chargeback (in the US anyway) you WILL NOT get a refund. Beyond that all this other shit is a waste of time.

So if you want money back just od a chargeback.

I suspect anyone that does want their money back has already done this anyway.

Still is no reason to flame to people.
It is an open discussion to can react to anything ariseing from it

gipfeli · April 2016

spankybus said:

Not sure about you, but I do not DONATE money to amazon.com so they can send me goods as a reward...I buy that sh*t. But, by all means, please call up the UNICEF and as them what they will send you for your Transaction to help starving kids in another country...

donation can also be developement aid support, not only charity ^.^

Asm0deus · April 2016

spankybus said:

The ability of people to willfully ignore a lifetime of experience and education and embrace a twisted interpretation of something so they might be considered 'right' in a discussion...I have no words, save these:

...snip...

Not sure about you, but I do not DONATE money to amazon.com so they can send me goods as a reward...I buy that sh*t. But, by all means, please call up the UNICEF and as them what they will send you for your Transaction to help starving kids in another country...

CIG is not a charity, its a developer looking to provide goods and/or services for cash. If you would like to play SC, BUY yourself a copy of either game, or maybe both. You get a ship, too! This is a transaction. This is no different to me than buying a game after it is finished. You are simply pre-ordering in the most extreme sense of the word. But you are providing money with the firm expectation of goods and/or services.

Now, having done this, you can buy more ships, if you choose. However, these ships will be available in-game. Frankly, at this point, you are just crazy...maybe even a sucker. I've done this....and i feel a bit crazy, perhaps a sucker. Buy you are buying future access to virtual goods. In this way, it is no different than pre-ordering digital movies on iTunes, save that buying virtual ships includes way more risk.

Donations are not just giving to charities, see my post on page 18. This isn't a recent development in the nature of donations.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/donation

Full Definition of donation

: the act or an instance of donating: as
a : the making of a gift especially to a charity or public institution
b : a free contribution : gift

You can see you can make donation to organizations that are not charities or non profits and in such cases you even have to pay taxes.

When you make a contribution to CIG they give you a reward, it's not a purchase per say but because you receive a "reward" it's taxable.

Using a dictionary is nice and all but you need to also take into account the context into which the words is being used which can change the meaning of what is being said. In this case it's in the context of crowdfunding and not of simply buying an already existing product.

ceratop001 · April 2016

Page 19 already and it's time for a group hug naked...

Erillion · April 2016

ceratop001 said:

Page 19 already and it's time for a group hug naked...

Have fun ?

Armendius · April 2016

It is possible to chargeback a reward.
It is not possible from the original kickstarter I was referring to, as that exceed the 540 days time limit in the code.
Yes it does refresh the right from the last expected date 120 day up to the limit of 540 days in total.

Maybe I was write a few things before mixed

I hope is now a bit more understandable to read

rodarin · April 2016

Armendius said:

rodarin said:

Despite all the pseudo legal crap that people have been spewing the past few weeks and 18 pages the bottom line is you WILL get a chargeback (in the US anyway) you WILL NOT get a refund. Beyond that all this other shit is a waste of time.

So if you want money back just od a chargeback.

I suspect anyone that does want their money back has already done this anyway.

Still is no reason to flame to people.
It is an open discussion to can react to anything ariseing from it

there is no discussion its broken down to complete nonsense right now, like every SC thread. People who want their money know how to get it. If anything the stupidity being chirped abut in this thread would probably mislead peopel more than anything (on both sides).

Its simple, and could be stickied...if you want your money back DO NOT try to get a refund, simply do a chargeback, the end. At this point that is the only thing relevant. Well its been the only relevant topic anyway, but everyone trying to play internet lawyer had to get their dozen comments in.

Armendius · April 2016

rodarin said:

Armendius said:

rodarin said:

Despite all the pseudo legal crap that people have been spewing the past few weeks and 18 pages the bottom line is you WILL get a chargeback (in the US anyway) you WILL NOT get a refund. Beyond that all this other shit is a waste of time.

So if you want money back just od a chargeback.

I suspect anyone that does want their money back has already done this anyway.

Still is no reason to flame to people.
It is an open discussion to can react to anything ariseing from it

there is no discussion its broken down to complete nonsense right now, like every SC thread. People who want their money know how to get it. If anything the stupidity being chirped abut in this thread would probably mislead peopel more than anything (on both sides).

Its simple, and could be stickied...if you want your money back DO NOT try to get a refund, simply do a chargeback, the end. At this point that is the only thing relevant. Well its been the only relevant topic anyway, but everyone trying to play internet lawyer had to get their dozen comments in.

Charge back codes have a limit.

Distopia · April 2016

rodarin said:

Armendius said:

rodarin said:

Despite all the pseudo legal crap that people have been spewing the past few weeks and 18 pages the bottom line is you WILL get a chargeback (in the US anyway) you WILL NOT get a refund. Beyond that all this other shit is a waste of time.

So if you want money back just od a chargeback.

I suspect anyone that does want their money back has already done this anyway.

Still is no reason to flame to people.
It is an open discussion to can react to anything ariseing from it

there is no discussion its broken down to complete nonsense right now, like every SC thread. People who want their money know how to get it. If anything the stupidity being chirped abut in this thread would probably mislead peopel more than anything (on both sides).

Its simple, and could be stickied...if you want your money back DO NOT try to get a refund, simply do a chargeback, the end. At this point that is the only thing relevant. Well its been the only relevant topic anyway, but everyone trying to play internet lawyer had to get their dozen comments in.

It's a discussion forum for Pete's sake... it's not a place to just sticky a PSA...

Armendius · April 2016

What I find as experience from this discussion board is that it feels like we fight eachother instead of to help understand eachother point.
I always thought that a discussion board was to help instead of who is right or wrong.

mr1602 · April 2016

rodarin said:

Armendius said:

rodarin said:

Despite all the pseudo legal crap that people have been spewing the past few weeks and 18 pages the bottom line is you WILL get a chargeback (in the US anyway) you WILL NOT get a refund. Beyond that all this other shit is a waste of time.

So if you want money back just od a chargeback.

I suspect anyone that does want their money back has already done this anyway.

Still is no reason to flame to people.
It is an open discussion to can react to anything ariseing from it

there is no discussion its broken down to complete nonsense right now, like every SC thread. People who want their money know how to get it. If anything the stupidity being chirped abut in this thread would probably mislead peopel more than anything (on both sides).

Its simple, and could be stickied...if you want your money back DO NOT try to get a refund, simply do a chargeback, the end. At this point that is the only thing relevant. Well its been the only relevant topic anyway, but everyone trying to play internet lawyer had to get their dozen comments in.

A charge back request usually asks for any proof that the customer went through the refund process. I'd like to note that a non-response is good enough. so an attachment of a refund request email sent 2 weeks ago with a 'company refused the refund / no response after 2 weeks' line is sufficient

GrumpyHobbit · April 2016

Armendius said:

What I find as experience from this discussion board is that it feels like we fight eachother instead of to help understand eachother point.
I always thought that a discussion board was to help instead of who is right or wrong.

Unfortunately not.

You even have some very well known posters who regularly post threads and comment on topics where they admit they do it just for the forum PvP. Essentially self professed trolls and the site does little to stop it.

Then you have the guys that will non stop make post after post after post making stuff up and stating it as facts rather then letting people interested in a game to enjoy talking about it. Why should you be allowed to enjoy a game if they cannot is their philosophy it seems.

So yeah, between the guys who get off repeatedly making annoying troll posts through to the guys who won't allow others to enjoy games but have to hate all the time...not so much community spirit, more like 'look at me I am important because here people don't ignore me or hit me like in real life'.

rodarin · April 2016

GrumpyHobbit said:

Armendius said:

What I find as experience from this discussion board is that it feels like we fight eachother instead of to help understand eachother point.
I always thought that a discussion board was to help instead of who is right or wrong.

Unfortunately not.

You even have some very well known posters who regularly post threads and comment on topics where they admit they do it just for the forum PvP. Essentially self professed trolls and the site does little to stop it.

Then you have the guys that will non stop make post after post after post making stuff up and stating it as facts rather then letting people interested in a game to enjoy talking about it. Why should you be allowed to enjoy a game if they cannot is their philosophy it seems.

So yeah, between the guys who get off repeatedly making annoying troll posts through to the guys who won't allow others to enjoy games but have to hate all the time...not so much community spirit, more like 'look at me I am important because here people don't ignore me or hit me like in real life'.

you talk about it like its a released product instead of something many people feel is going ot be the biggest flop ever and one that obviously has more than a few people looking to get their money back .

Who is 'enjoying' star citizen right now? the 5 guys who stream it on twitch (wit no viewers)? Even the people who have backed it and spend all day promoting it arent even playing it now. So they obviously dont find any 'enjoyment' in it whatsoever.

I just call them like I see them, while you continue to claim people make stuff up its easy to see what the reality is.

rpmcmurphy · April 2016

Armendius said:

What I find as experience from this discussion board is that it feels like we fight eachother instead of to help understand eachother point.
I always thought that a discussion board was to help instead of who is right or wrong.

Unfortunately not, the M.O seems to be that if you're not wholely in praise for SC then you are batting for the other side, you are one of DS's minions, perhaps even an alt and you only exist to stir up trouble. Criticism and/or scepticism is not allowed.
Shut up and spend your money Commando!!

Armendius · April 2016

rpmcmurphy said:

Armendius said:

What I find as experience from this discussion board is that it feels like we fight eachother instead of to help understand eachother point.
I always thought that a discussion board was to help instead of who is right or wrong.

Unfortunately not, the M.O seems to be that if you're not wholely in praise for SC then you are batting for the other side, you are one of DS's minions, perhaps even an alt and you only exist to stir up trouble. Criticism and/or scepticism is not allowed.
Shut up and spend your money Commando!!

In the praise of SC?

If you can sense emotion in text there is plenty posts who wanted and would enjoy to see a battle between creditcard institution and CiG.
None of mine shared that goal.
I only like to learn more about the topic to express myself from things how I experience them.
What is a discussion.
Even if in my experience things are not always right, does not mean I cannot say that.
Its how I experience it.
Such is life, you fall, stand up and learn from things.

Dark side? Because of what that my english is confusing at times?

Then the last sentice in your message is the one that create the dark side.

All I did is express my feeling and that is not a critism, what you do is.

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Charge Back and Refunds

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Charge Back and Refunds

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