Without caps on skills etc. the game will devolve to who has the highest skill level to determine who wins a fight, possibly the worst idea ever, particularly in a PVP game where the difference in skill levels will make a huge difference, its such a dumb thing to do, with plenty of precedents that i cannot believe it was made in ignorance, so have to question why they would go this route? Soft caps are irrelevant, there needs to be a hard cap on skill levels, or it will be abused, and the PVP will become a pointless exercise.
Guys we are talking about a pvp centric game. They made the huge mistake back in warhammer online of implementing op gear and weapons (warpforge). Consequence? Only a minority of players (those who lived in the game, min 4 hours at day playing, had access to that gear.
Most of the players (not only casuals) didn´t like that decission. That gear was so so so op that broke an already death game.
I agree that veterans SHOULD have some form of compensation but no more in any cases than 10% - 15%
Guys we are talking about a pvp centric game. They made the huge mistake back in warhammer online of implementing op gear and weapons (warpforge). Consequence? Only a minority of players (those who lived in the game, min 4 hours at day playing, had access to that gear.
Most of the players (not only casuals) didn´t like that decission. That gear was so so so op that broke an already death game.
I agree that veterans SHOULD have some form of compensation but no more in any cases than 10% - 15%
Otherwise game won´t be fun anymore.
This is why Korean MMO grinders have worked and why F2P p2W games take off. Because those games get the best of both worlds. You have people who play 100 hours a week who dont mind the grind, then you have the 'hardcore casual' who also play alot but arent interestd in min maxing, then you have hardcores who cant play long hours then you have randoms. These Korean games fit all of them if youre hardcore and cant play a lot you buy stuff, if youre hardcore and dont care then the grind doesnt bother you if youre a guy wo can live in the game you grind hours and then do what you think is best some sell what they make some keep it and try to get better others just horde stuff.
It is impossible for a 'serious' MMO to cater to every type of layer there is. Other than like I said having time limits on accounts or time locks. The only way to slow some people down is to make it impossible for them to play the game.
Sort of ironic that games USED to be about time put in equaled or sort of equaled getting better. These guys are trying to reintroduce that and there is a back lash. Mostly because now people have seen how locusts who can play dozens and hundreds of hours a week or month, and that no matter how hardcore they think they are they cant compete with these guys.
Another reason why straight up MMOs with some sort of competitive nature cant exist until they figure a way to close the gap.
That doesn't sound very good for the long term, as once the game becomes top heavy(most playing are in the higher tiers) new players will be at a severe disadvantage, never to catch up..
And also since this is an RvR game you'll have super strong folks on your side too just as they will have newbies on their side...
I think this is the real problem with most PvP systems. Most developers are trying to develop the game from a team/realm perspective, whereas the players are 100% focused on the "me" perspective.
I'm personally of the opinion that trying too hard to balance everyone ruins games. Too many folks are of the mindset that they should be able to beat everyone everywhere. In a game like this, the whole point of the PvP is team balance, not personal balance. I'm sure most dev. teams really don't care if you lose a 1-on-1 duel vs. a veteran player; so long as the realms are fairly balanced.
Obviously, you don't want a guy running around one-shotting everyone, but soft-cap progression is generally so minor that it's not even worth worrying about.
Even though people can't seem to agree on what a soft-cap actually is in this thread O.o
I don't think this will work tbh. Might have worked in EvE to an extent but this will cause people not to want to even bother with the game even if the stats go up a very very small amount.
I've never grasped the idea of 'catching up' the older players. Why would anyone even think being equal with someone who have played several years if you made your character yesterday? Off to WoW with you, noob.
I've never grasped the idea of 'catching up' the older players. Why would anyone even think being equal with someone who have played several years if you made your character yesterday? Off to WoW with you, noob.
And thats the kind of attitude you get from the 'older' players who will inevitably lord it over the new players 'because they can'. Basically the kiss of death for any game.
I've never grasped the idea of 'catching up' the older players. Why would anyone even think being equal with someone who have played several years if you made your character yesterday? Off to WoW with you, noob.
And thats the kind of attitude you get from the 'older' players who will inevitably lord it over the new players 'because they can'. Basically the kiss of death for any game.
Depends how the game is designed. If the veterans need some new blood to replenish their ranks they certainly won't act that way. Or, new players could probably make a guild/clan of their own and eventually become older players.
I've never grasped the idea of 'catching up' the older players. Why would anyone even think being equal with someone who have played several years if you made your character yesterday? Off to WoW with you, noob.
Well if you can't grasp the concept of why this is a good thing, there's no point in discussing it with you.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I've never grasped the idea of 'catching up' the older players. Why would anyone even think being equal with someone who have played several years if you made your character yesterday? Off to WoW with you, noob.
Well if you can't grasp the concept of why this is a good thing, there's no point in discussing it with you.
Be off with you.
You can always discuss, and i can see the benefits of catching up mechanisms, but i still value long term investment in game better than having everyone on equal ground.
Besides, we already have enough those casual games where everyone are winners and no one can fail.
I've never grasped the idea of 'catching up' the older players. Why would anyone even think being equal with someone who have played several years if you made your character yesterday? Off to WoW with you, noob.
With a system like this I instantly think, "wow, I want to be the guy that has more skills than most. So I will put in my time, (well as much as I can having to also go to work) and over time I will become stronger than most and that will be awesome" And in a year or more I will have built up and good character and that'll be great.
Sure there are going to be many people who are stronger than me but I will be stronger than some too. Just because there are larger fish in the sea that's not going to scare me away from playing the game (it'll put the fire under my butt to play more), and I'm sure for those who are fantastic players they'll be able to defeat players that are stronger than them with their skill, and I'm sure they'll be handsomely rewarded for it.
So many people nowadays tuck tail and run from any challenge, they don't want to put in the time to build a great character, they are the "we want it and we want it now" crowd. And I just don't get it, I can't stand playing games where in the span of a few months everyone is at cap, well until the next expansion anyways. Don't people feel like all the work they put in is always reset every expansion? Every 6 months, it's time to do it again, over and over. With CU's no cap system you will actually have something to show for all your time you put in. How cool would it be to be the 5 year vet, these guys are actually going to have their names known, people will always be wanting you in their groups (well given you're a cool dude and not an ass) Not getting reset will be awesome. And I think that has a great deal of why I just don't like most games now a days, I hate getting rest all the time, I want a game that I can build onto my character for years making him more powerful.
I guess just don't look at it like you are behind other people in stats, look at it as a game that you will always be able to progress and further your advancement for years and years to come. You won't be getting reset here with an expansion and to me that is awesome
Honestly I don't see the majority of the crowd that has backed this as worrying about someone who has been playing longer having some small percentage of more power. They'd likely expect it.
Again , this is the crowd that welcomes old school servers and subscriptions , not the ones who would expect bland everyone has to be 100% equal balance , easy and quick paths for everything etc.
It's why most who backed it as heavily as they did , did. Not desiring most of the other crap that's out there atm , and a return to other ways of playing.
It's not for everyone , nor should it be. Most things made to try and please the most end up the blandest and worst all around.
No cap sounds great on paper, but there are a whole lot of potential issues. For one, new players can get screwed without a catchup mechanic. The bigger issue though is that "endless progression" stops feeling good if you don't actually gain any interesting gameplay perks other then passive bonus damage,health,ect.
There's several flaws with any open-ended cap system. Some of these include:
Catch-up. Players who start later than others will never catch-up to those that start before them with the same number of hours played per day. Someone who plays 4 hours a day will never catch up to another player who plays 4 hours a day.
Granularity. What does a 738 skill mean? How is it different from the same skill at 737? If a 738 and a 737 are effectively equal, does that really constitute a reason for continuing to skill up?
Scalability. If a 738 skill opposes a 3 skill, the algorithm must scale, and the results need to scale accordingly. Suppose the skill involved was 'Trading' which gives a discount when buying or a premium when selling.
Security. Since there is no limit to any skill, coded algorithms cannot have bounds checking included, because one day, one individual will get their wolf skinning skill to 2^16, which is 1 more than the developers planned for. This could cause run time errors (array overflow) etc.
Efficiency. The speed of many computer operations are dependent on the size of the operators. If the developers use 8-bit storage to use a fast hardware function, how will the game be impacted if the 8-bit short integer is replaced with long integers (32 or more bits)?
An open-ended system places many restraints on the developer. Hopefully, these restraints will not impact the players game experience. But how many of us really believe that developers take the time (and effort) to think all the possible things through?
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
This is what i have been asking for, for years. I don't think it is a good fit for a PVP based game. But if you put this into a PVE based game it would be great. The problem there is almost all PVE based games now think they have to have some form of PVP.
This appeals to players like myself that do not like hardcaps, I hate when I reach these max levels and all the sudden I can't get any better by playing, I can only get gear to make myself better. I actually enjoy leveling, I like to see the xp bar move, it gives some meaning to time put in for me. I never race to max level, and will usually create alts as soon as I hit it because it is no fun for me anymore.
Don't worry about soft caps in the game. It will be slow but will allow you to always play your character and advance him like what k61977 is talking about. Just think of the soft cap like approaching the speed of light. As you get closer to the speed of light you need massive amounts of energy to gain just a little speed.
I don't think this will work tbh. Might have worked in EvE to an extent but this will cause people not to want to even bother with the game even if the stats go up a very very small amount.
Actually in EvE every skill can be trained up to level 5 which means there is a hard cap - hard to achieve but still present. Also in EvE you can specialise so as a newcomer you have a way to decrease the gap atleast a little bit.
No skill cap here however even if looks promising in the beginning it may easily turn into game killer eventually (gap between vets and newcomers too big to overcome).
I've never grasped the idea of 'catching up' the older players. Why would anyone even think being equal with someone who have played several years if you made your character yesterday? Off to WoW with you, noob.
Well if you can't grasp the concept of why this is a good thing, there's no point in discussing it with you.
Be off with you.
You can always discuss, and i can see the benefits of catching up mechanisms, but i still value long term investment in game better than having everyone on equal ground.
Besides, we already have enough those casual games where everyone are winners and no one can fail.
But everyone isnt going to be a winner. This is a PvP game remember.
You fight, people will win and people will lose. Thats how PvP works.
And a real PvPer shouldnt need the advantage of thousands of skill points over his opponent. A real PvPer would still beat his opponent even if everyone was on equal ground.
Comments
Soft caps are irrelevant, there needs to be a hard cap on skill levels, or it will be abused, and the PVP will become a pointless exercise.
Most of the players (not only casuals) didn´t like that decission. That gear was so so so op that broke an already death game.
I agree that veterans SHOULD have some form of compensation but no more in any cases than 10% - 15%
Otherwise game won´t be fun anymore.
It is impossible for a 'serious' MMO to cater to every type of layer there is. Other than like I said having time limits on accounts or time locks. The only way to slow some people down is to make it impossible for them to play the game.
Sort of ironic that games USED to be about time put in equaled or sort of equaled getting better. These guys are trying to reintroduce that and there is a back lash. Mostly because now people have seen how locusts who can play dozens and hundreds of hours a week or month, and that no matter how hardcore they think they are they cant compete with these guys.
Another reason why straight up MMOs with some sort of competitive nature cant exist until they figure a way to close the gap.
I like games where gear/longevity along with skill counts.
I'm personally of the opinion that trying too hard to balance everyone ruins games. Too many folks are of the mindset that they should be able to beat everyone everywhere. In a game like this, the whole point of the PvP is team balance, not personal balance. I'm sure most dev. teams really don't care if you lose a 1-on-1 duel vs. a veteran player; so long as the realms are fairly balanced.
Obviously, you don't want a guy running around one-shotting everyone, but soft-cap progression is generally so minor that it's not even worth worrying about.
Even though people can't seem to agree on what a soft-cap actually is in this thread O.o
I'm a MUDder. I play MUDs.
Current: Dragonrealms
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Be off with you.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Besides, we already have enough those casual games where everyone are winners and no one can fail.
Sure there are going to be many people who are stronger than me but I will be stronger than some too. Just because there are larger fish in the sea that's not going to scare me away from playing the game (it'll put the fire under my butt to play more), and I'm sure for those who are fantastic players they'll be able to defeat players that are stronger than them with their skill, and I'm sure they'll be handsomely rewarded for it.
So many people nowadays tuck tail and run from any challenge, they don't want to put in the time to build a great character, they are the "we want it and we want it now" crowd. And I just don't get it, I can't stand playing games where in the span of a few months everyone is at cap, well until the next expansion anyways. Don't people feel like all the work they put in is always reset every expansion? Every 6 months, it's time to do it again, over and over. With CU's no cap system you will actually have something to show for all your time you put in. How cool would it be to be the 5 year vet, these guys are actually going to have their names known, people will always be wanting you in their groups (well given you're a cool dude and not an ass) Not getting reset will be awesome. And I think that has a great deal of why I just don't like most games now a days, I hate getting rest all the time, I want a game that I can build onto my character for years making him more powerful.
I guess just don't look at it like you are behind other people in stats, look at it as a game that you will always be able to progress and further your advancement for years and years to come. You won't be getting reset here with an expansion and to me that is awesome
Again , this is the crowd that welcomes old school servers and subscriptions , not the ones who would expect bland everyone has to be 100% equal balance , easy and quick paths for everything etc.
It's why most who backed it as heavily as they did , did. Not desiring most of the other crap that's out there atm , and a return to other ways of playing.
It's not for everyone , nor should it be. Most things made to try and please the most end up the blandest and worst all around.
Rank: newbie
potential threat: non-existent
- Efficiency. The speed of many computer operations are dependent on the size of the operators. If the developers use 8-bit storage to use a fast hardware function, how will the game be impacted if the 8-bit short integer is replaced with long integers (32 or more bits)?
An open-ended system places many restraints on the developer. Hopefully, these restraints will not impact the players game experience. But how many of us really believe that developers take the time (and effort) to think all the possible things through?Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
This appeals to players like myself that do not like hardcaps, I hate when I reach these max levels and all the sudden I can't get any better by playing, I can only get gear to make myself better. I actually enjoy leveling, I like to see the xp bar move, it gives some meaning to time put in for me. I never race to max level, and will usually create alts as soon as I hit it because it is no fun for me anymore.
but, if someone can do it, then it's MJ
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
No skill cap here however even if looks promising in the beginning it may easily turn into game killer eventually (gap between vets and newcomers too big to overcome).
You fight, people will win and people will lose. Thats how PvP works.
And a real PvPer shouldnt need the advantage of thousands of skill points over his opponent. A real PvPer would still beat his opponent even if everyone was on equal ground.