You won't always find success, because you won't necessarily always play perfectly. But if you do play perfectly (and your group/raid does too), you should achieve success in everything because it would be stupid to experience victory or failure entirely at random when facing a balanced challenge.
You do realize almost every RPG stat-driven system uses RNG as the ultimate deciding factor of any chosen action right?
Experiencing victory or failure entirely at random is almost a fundamental component of the classic RPG genre.
The only example you have of defying this was to meta-game and munchkin one's characters. A means that is generally exploiting flaws in a game's mechanics rather than intended features (hence why Blizz would change the hit-cap so players wouldn't be breaking the combat mechanics by removing variables).
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Has anyone brought up the fact that licorice has been around much longer than jelly beans?
That
pretty much means that the entitlement folks are the ones that wanted a
bag of something more than just licorice. That bag of just black jelly
beans is old school hardcore.
I think this mistake pretty much sums up the fallacy of the 'old school' > current argument.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Nah you don't understand the OP. I cave as you will never get it. Have fun with your easy games. That wont stop me from wanting what I want.
Of course not. No one (or few) ever changes their minds here.
But the real question is .. are you getting what you want from the gaming market?
Actually no. After darkfall went down and dfuw was a bust I haven't found anything that grabs me. At that point I decided to look into game development and have been having a blast.
A better example would be comparing [Cap'n Crunch's Crunch Berries] cereal with [Cap'n Crunch's Oops! All Berries]. Everyone I knew would toss out of the black jelly beans.
You won't always find success, because you won't necessarily always play perfectly. But if you do play perfectly (and your group/raid does too), you should achieve success in everything because it would be stupid to experience victory or failure entirely at random when facing a balanced challenge.
You do realize almost every RPG stat-driven system uses RNG as the ultimate deciding factor of any chosen action right?
Experiencing victory or failure entirely at random is almost a fundamental component of the classic RPG genre.
The only example you have of defying this was to meta-game and munchkin one's characters. A means that is generally exploiting flaws in a game's mechanics rather than intended features (hence why Blizz would change the hit-cap so players wouldn't be breaking the combat mechanics by removing variables).
Whether there is a to-hit roll or not, usually the player has a good amount of influence how good his/her to-hit rolls through decisions he/she makes in the game.
If it were completely random, no one would be interested. The whole basis of good game design is to have the player go through varying challenges with the established rules and reward him/her if he/she does well.
In every RPG, player skill is important. RNG is not a requirement for RPGs.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
You won't always find success, because you won't necessarily always play perfectly. But if you do play perfectly (and your group/raid does too), you should achieve success in everything because it would be stupid to experience victory or failure entirely at random when facing a balanced challenge.
You do realize almost every RPG stat-driven system uses RNG as the ultimate deciding factor of any chosen action right?
Experiencing victory or failure entirely at random is almost a fundamental component of the classic RPG genre.
The only example you have of defying this was to meta-game and munchkin one's characters. A means that is generally exploiting flaws in a game's mechanics rather than intended features (hence why Blizz would change the hit-cap so players wouldn't be breaking the combat mechanics by removing variables).
Whether there is a to-hit roll or not, usually the player has a good amount of influence how good his/her to-hit rolls through decisions he/she makes in the game.
If it were completely random, no one would be interested. The whole basis of good game design is to have the player go through varying challenges with the established rules and reward him/her if he/she does well.
In every RPG, player skill is important. RNG is not a requirement for RPGs.
When it comes to entertainment value. A completely predictable outcome is just as flawed as a completely random outcome. Completely predictable = boring. Completely random = frustrating.
Actually no. After darkfall went down and dfuw was a bust I haven't found anything that grabs me. At that point I decided to look into game development and have been having a blast.
Making games is entertaining? It sounds more like work to me. But hey, good for you.
If i were you, i would just go do something else like tv, anime, novels, or just single player games.
You won't always find success, because you won't necessarily always play perfectly. But if you do play perfectly (and your group/raid does too), you should achieve success in everything because it would be stupid to experience victory or failure entirely at random when facing a balanced challenge.
You do realize almost every RPG stat-driven system uses RNG as the ultimate deciding factor of any chosen action right?
Experiencing victory or failure entirely at random is almost a fundamental component of the classic RPG genre.
The only example you have of defying this was to meta-game and munchkin one's characters. A means that is generally exploiting flaws in a game's mechanics rather than intended features (hence why Blizz would change the hit-cap so players wouldn't be breaking the combat mechanics by removing variables).
Whether there is a to-hit roll or not, usually the player has a good amount of influence how good his/her to-hit rolls through decisions he/she makes in the game.
If it were completely random, no one would be interested. The whole basis of good game design is to have the player go through varying challenges with the established rules and reward him/her if he/she does well.
In every RPG, player skill is important. RNG is not a requirement for RPGs.
Yes and no. RNG plays a bigger role than player skill does canonically in RPGs. On top of that, the strong penchant for vertical progression creates a very narrow window where player skill has all that much weight in the matter.
If you look at almost any classic RPG you are going to find that your hit and combat abilities are strictly defined by their stats than they are by your input as a player. Where the "skill" comes in under most these scenarios is sequencing actions and speccing points. The action itself is for the most part a somewhat randomized endeavor where you hope your numbers are higher than your target's numbers. It's only as people have intentionally shifted away from the fundamentals of the genre to explore action gameplay hybrids more and more where that has changed. Even the biggest MMORPG games out right now (for example WoW) are built with a focus on statistics driven combat, not player skill.
And as laserit pointed out, balance tends to work best for RPGs.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
You won't always find success, because you won't necessarily always play perfectly. But if you do play perfectly (and your group/raid does too), you should achieve success in everything because it would be stupid to experience victory or failure entirely at random when facing a balanced challenge.
You do realize almost every RPG stat-driven system uses RNG as the ultimate deciding factor of any chosen action right?
Experiencing victory or failure entirely at random is almost a fundamental component of the classic RPG genre.
The only example you have of defying this was to meta-game and munchkin one's characters. A means that is generally exploiting flaws in a game's mechanics rather than intended features (hence why Blizz would change the hit-cap so players wouldn't be breaking the combat mechanics by removing variables).
Whether there is a to-hit roll or not, usually the player has a good amount of influence how good his/her to-hit rolls through decisions he/she makes in the game.
If it were completely random, no one would be interested. The whole basis of good game design is to have the player go through varying challenges with the established rules and reward him/her if he/she does well.
In every RPG, player skill is important. RNG is not a requirement for RPGs.
Yes and no. RNG plays a bigger role than player skill does canonically in RPGs. On top of that, the strong penchant for vertical progression creates a very narrow window where player skill has all that much weight in the matter.
If you look at almost any classic RPG you are going to find that your hit and combat abilities are strictly defined by their stats than they are by your input as a player. Where the "skill" comes in under most these scenarios is sequencing actions and speccing points. The action itself is for the most part a somewhat randomized endeavor where you hope your numbers are higher than your target's numbers. It's only as people have intentionally shifted away from the fundamentals of the genre to explore action gameplay hybrids more and more where that has changed. Even the biggest MMORPG games out right now (for example WoW) are built with a focus on statistics driven combat, not player skill.
And as laserit pointed out, balance tends to work best for RPGs.
What kind of RPGs have you been playing? Dice rolls are a remnant of the days of tabletop and P&P RPGs. We don't need dice anymore and RPGs are not worse because they don't use RNG as much as they used to.
Also, stats and RNG are two different matters. As much as you can have stats modifying your dice rolls, you can have stats modifying your actions as a player.
RNG comes into play if you want to either randomize something or when you wish to create the "gambler's rush" effect (like in loot rolls). In old P&P and tabletop RPGs, dice rolls were necessary. In video game RPGs, they are not.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
You won't always find success, because you won't necessarily always play perfectly. But if you do play perfectly (and your group/raid does too), you should achieve success in everything because it would be stupid to experience victory or failure entirely at random when facing a balanced challenge.
You do realize almost every RPG stat-driven system uses RNG as the ultimate deciding factor of any chosen action right?
Experiencing victory or failure entirely at random is almost a fundamental component of the classic RPG genre.
The only example you have of defying this was to meta-game and munchkin one's characters. A means that is generally exploiting flaws in a game's mechanics rather than intended features (hence why Blizz would change the hit-cap so players wouldn't be breaking the combat mechanics by removing variables).
Whether there is a to-hit roll or not, usually the player has a good amount of influence how good his/her to-hit rolls through decisions he/she makes in the game.
If it were completely random, no one would be interested. The whole basis of good game design is to have the player go through varying challenges with the established rules and reward him/her if he/she does well.
In every RPG, player skill is important. RNG is not a requirement for RPGs.
Yes and no. RNG plays a bigger role than player skill does canonically in RPGs. On top of that, the strong penchant for vertical progression creates a very narrow window where player skill has all that much weight in the matter.
If you look at almost any classic RPG you are going to find that your hit and combat abilities are strictly defined by their stats than they are by your input as a player. Where the "skill" comes in under most these scenarios is sequencing actions and speccing points. The action itself is for the most part a somewhat randomized endeavor where you hope your numbers are higher than your target's numbers. It's only as people have intentionally shifted away from the fundamentals of the genre to explore action gameplay hybrids more and more where that has changed. Even the biggest MMORPG games out right now (for example WoW) are built with a focus on statistics driven combat, not player skill.
And as laserit pointed out, balance tends to work best for RPGs.
What kind of RPGs have you been playing? Dice rolls are a remnant of the days of tabletop and P&P RPGs. We don't need dice anymore and RPGs are not worse because they don't use RNG as much as they used to.
Also, stats and RNG are two different matters. As much as you can have stats modifying your dice rolls, you can have stats modifying your actions as a player.
RNG comes into play if you want to either randomize something or when you wish to create the "gambler's rush" effect (like in loot rolls). In old P&P and tabletop RPGs, dice rolls were necessary. In video game RPGs, they are not.
Dice rolls are still there.
Why the heck would you have any stats if it was solely based on action and skill. Inside your CPU hidden to you there is also a dice roll happening and BINGO when you score a Crit.
I agree, though this isn't the only problem with MMOs. Far from it. The entire industry is a disgrace at this point.
I have searched for a long time, but I simply cannot find a fantasy-themed MMO that I consider to be worth my time. You would think that in an industry as big as this there would be a game out there with quality (or at least serviceable) graphics, coherent controls, dynamic skill-based combat (or at least mostly skill-based), in an open-world, non-carebear, pvp-oriented environmet with no safe zones. Safe zones are where MMOs go to die. MMOs are about player interaction. If you don't want to interact with other players, then don't play an MMO. I'm not saying all MMOs have to be this way, but why is it so hard to find ONE good fantasy MMO that doesn't give a shit about carebears?
For the life of me, I can't find one. All of the big name MMOs follow the same old tired design, with a restricted class/level system, instanced and regulated environments, and combat that is far too based on magical gear and power-ups and other nonsense. This is the restricted carebear design philosophy followed by almost all the big names in MMOs, and the ones that don't follow this path are mostly indie titles with nowhere near the same budget.
It's really unfortunate that this is the path MMOs have taken. The mindless pursuit of profit has derailed all possibilities of the great, unique MMOs that could have been. In time the industry will surely recover from this, but in the meantime it's still extremely difficult for those of us who know what games are for, what MMOs are for.
My search for a great fantasy-themed hardcore non-carebear MMO continues...
They claim they want a game that doesn't care about carebears. What they want is a game when they can greif carebears with impunity. That game will repulse carebears, and the carebares will stay away. They don't want a game populated with their own kind. Where the worst of them prey on the rest of them. They only think they are up to the challenge of a PvP-oriented environment with no safe zones. Once in one, it quickly turns into Five Nights at Freddy's for them.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
What kind of RPGs have you been playing? Dice rolls are a remnant of the days of tabletop and P&P RPGs. We don't need dice anymore and RPGs are not worse because they don't use RNG as much as they used to.
Also, stats and RNG are two different matters. As much as you can have stats modifying your dice rolls, you can have stats modifying your actions as a player.
RNG comes into play if you want to either randomize something or when you wish to create the "gambler's rush" effect (like in loot rolls). In old P&P and tabletop RPGs, dice rolls were necessary. In video game RPGs, they are not.
...Do you not know how computer games work?
Most RPGs are "rolling the dice" for you behind the scenes on every action/event. That's the reason there's stats and the probability of failure, hits, or criticals at all.
Most RPG games quite literally use randomized numbers (within a fixed range) to give variance and potential success/failure to the baseline of character actions.
The dice are still there, dude.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
When it comes to entertainment value. A completely predictable outcome is just as flawed as a completely random outcome. Completely predictable = boring. Completely random = frustrating.
A mix of both is essential
Sure, but do you think this is a real problem MMORPGs face?
When your raid group starts a new boss (a new boss designed to be a balanced challenge for your raid group's current progression level), there is zero concern of things being "completely predictable". It's only after considerable repetition that the boss will become fully mastered -- and by that point you'll have moved on to a new raid boss because you're further progressed.
That boss will probably wipe your raid several times before you learn to beat the fight (and several more times before you learn to beat the fight consistently), and yet if you handed all your characters over to a raid team which was familiar with the fight, they would make all the right deterministic decisions to beat it on the very first try. So your raid's repeated wipes were completely the result of players' poor decisions (rooted in their lack of knowledge about executing the fight correctly.)
So there's no concern about MMORPGs being too predictable, even with combat which is largely deterministic and fights being in perfect balance with players' progression.
New content is required to make this work, but that's the nature of games: you have to keep providing new and/or deeper patterns so that things don't become too predictable.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
What kind of RPGs have you been playing? Dice rolls are a remnant of the days of tabletop and P&P RPGs. We don't need dice anymore and RPGs are not worse because they don't use RNG as much as they used to.
Also, stats and RNG are two different matters. As much as you can have stats modifying your dice rolls, you can have stats modifying your actions as a player.
RNG comes into play if you want to either randomize something or when you wish to create the "gambler's rush" effect (like in loot rolls). In old P&P and tabletop RPGs, dice rolls were necessary. In video game RPGs, they are not.
Dice rolls are still there.
Why the heck would you have any stats if it was solely based on action and skill. Inside your CPU hidden to you there is also a dice roll happening and BINGO when you score a Crit.
I didn't say dice rolls aren't there. I said they are not necessary. And if you look at competitive games, they are all pretty much ditching random crits too.
In a MOBA, a random crit from an auto attack can decide a lane. Nobody wants that to happen. It renders the players' effort and skill to null and you might as well decide the outcome with a fucking coin toss. Do you think that is good for depth or interesting gameplay? No.
And let me give you an example of stats which enhance player actions:
50% more damage if you score a critical hit
your first attack, with 10 second cooldown, does double damage
you gain a movement speed bonus after each kill
your attacks penetrate 50% more terrain
you can hold your breath longer
etc.
None of these have anything to do with rolling a dice. You can build a character and specialize all without a single dice roll. Again, RNG is not a requirement for RPGs.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
What kind of RPGs have you been playing? Dice rolls are a remnant of the days of tabletop and P&P RPGs. We don't need dice anymore and RPGs are not worse because they don't use RNG as much as they used to.
Also, stats and RNG are two different matters. As much as you can have stats modifying your dice rolls, you can have stats modifying your actions as a player.
RNG comes into play if you want to either randomize something or when you wish to create the "gambler's rush" effect (like in loot rolls). In old P&P and tabletop RPGs, dice rolls were necessary. In video game RPGs, they are not.
...Do you not know how computer games work?
Most RPGs are "rolling the dice" for you behind the scenes on every action/event. That's the reason there's stats and the probability of failure, hits, or criticals at all.
Most RPG games quite literally use randomized numbers (within a fixed range) to give variance and potential success/failure to the baseline of character actions.
The dice are still there, dude.
Actually I have a good grasp of how computer games work: I am a programmer by trade and I've been part of making a couple.
Read carefully: I am not arguing whether or not most RPGs use RNG or not, I am arguing the point that RNG is not a requirement for RPGs. You can have an RPG entirely without dice rolls.
Any suggestion that an RPG is supposed to have to-hit rolls is bullshit.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Read carefully: I am not arguing whether or not most RPGs use RNG or not, I am arguing the point that RNG is not a requirement for RPGs. You can have an RPG entirely without dice rolls.
This not saying much. Graphics is not a requirement for RPGs. Gear is not a requirement for RPGs. But most RPGs on computer have graphics, gear, and yes, RNG.
Read carefully: I am not arguing whether or not most RPGs use RNG or not, I am arguing the point that RNG is not a requirement for RPGs. You can have an RPG entirely without dice rolls.
This not saying much. Graphics is not a requirement for RPGs. Gear is not a requirement for RPGs. But most RPGs on computer have graphics, gear, and yes, RNG.
So does Counter Strike. Is Counter Strike an RPG?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
What kind of RPGs have you been playing? Dice rolls are a remnant of the days of tabletop and P&P RPGs. We don't need dice anymore and RPGs are not worse because they don't use RNG as much as they used to.
Also, stats and RNG are two different matters. As much as you can have stats modifying your dice rolls, you can have stats modifying your actions as a player.
RNG comes into play if you want to either randomize something or when you wish to create the "gambler's rush" effect (like in loot rolls). In old P&P and tabletop RPGs, dice rolls were necessary. In video game RPGs, they are not.
Dice rolls are still there.
Why the heck would you have any stats if it was solely based on action and skill. Inside your CPU hidden to you there is also a dice roll happening and BINGO when you score a Crit.
I didn't say dice rolls aren't there. I said they are not necessary. And if you look at competitive games, they are all pretty much ditching random crits too.
In a MOBA, a random crit from an auto attack can decide a lane. Nobody wants that to happen. It renders the players' effort and skill to null and you might as well decide the outcome with a fucking coin toss. Do you think that is good for depth or interesting gameplay? No.
And let me give you an example of stats which enhance player actions:
50% more damage if you score a critical hit
your first attack, with 10 second cooldown, does double damage
you gain a movement speed bonus after each kill
your attacks penetrate 50% more terrain
you can hold your breath longer
etc.
None of these have anything to do with rolling a dice. You can build a character and specialize all without a single dice roll. Again, RNG is not a requirement for RPGs.
I don't disagree with you when it comes to things like MOBA's and E-Sports
First of all, let's separate an "RPG" experience from a "Competitive E-Sport" experience.
RNG enhances a purely entertainment focused RPG experience. A big part of RNG is meant to simulate random things that can happen in an encounter. In real life you will miss throw, miss swing, trip over a rock etc. etc. There will also be times when you make the perfect swing. Think like "David and Goliath", normally Goliath would have ripped David's head off, David wouldn't stand a chance. David didn't strategically aim his stone but just by luck, he had a Crit and One Shotted Goliath.
One of the main things RNG simulates is Luck. Luck is a real thing and it has turned the tide in many a historical encounter, beit from weather, sickness and disease etc.etc.
I would say in the barest sense yes. I am not a commando in real life, but I am in the game. You can get items to use. It's not a traditional RPG but it has a few RPG elements to it.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
When it comes to entertainment value. A completely predictable outcome is just as flawed as a completely random outcome. Completely predictable = boring. Completely random = frustrating.
A mix of both is essential
Sure, but do you think this is a real problem MMORPGs face?
When your raid group starts a new boss (a new boss designed to be a balanced challenge for your raid group's current progression level), there is zero concern of things being "completely predictable". It's only after considerable repetition that the boss will become fully mastered -- and by that point you'll have moved on to a new raid boss because you're further progressed.
That boss will probably wipe your raid several times before you learn to beat the fight (and several more times before you learn to beat the fight consistently), and yet if you handed all your characters over to a raid team which was familiar with the fight, they would make all the right deterministic decisions to beat it on the very first try. So your raid's repeated wipes were completely the result of players' poor decisions (rooted in their lack of knowledge about executing the fight correctly.)
So there's no concern about MMORPGs being too predictable, even with combat which is largely deterministic and fights being in perfect balance with players' progression.
New content is required to make this work, but that's the nature of games: you have to keep providing new and/or deeper patterns so that things don't become too predictable.
I think it's something that was thought out many years ago but has not been expanded upon and enhanced. I also believe that there is way too much focus on "End Game" to the detriment of "The Game" There is a reason why players think 95% of a MMORPG is a waste of time and that is a hole you guys have dug for yourselves.
Actually I have a good grasp of how computer games work: I am a programmer by trade and I've been part of making a couple.
Read carefully: I am not arguing whether or not most RPGs use RNG or not, I am arguing the point that RNG is not a requirement for RPGs. You can have an RPG entirely without dice rolls.
Any suggestion that an RPG is supposed to have to-hit rolls is bullshit.
Then I would advise you to stop your prattle and go back and read the first comment of mine you responded to, as the argument you just suggested you're countering was never made. Instead of making crap up to rant about, next time try to comment on the actual information.
This is what my commentary stated.
"You do realize almost every RPG stat-driven system uses RNG as the ultimate deciding factor of any chosen action right?"
Was that me saying they need it? No, that was me saying that, as they are built, almost all of them still utilize that system. You saying that the "don't need it to be an RPG" means just about nothing when addressing that, and is instead an annoying side-tangent you have been pressing further and further.
So read carefully: I am not going to argue the pedantic opinion of some random person. Fact is, most RPGs still rely on very classic systems and almost always have a window of success and failure that rests with RNG mechanics based on player stats. That's the nature of a system where progress and combat is statistically driven and any kind of variance is given.
Can you make a stat-driven or RPG title where there is no variance on action outcomes save for player input? Sure, but not even Diablo 3 does that, they still use damage ranges and crit chances alongside their defense stats.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Dice rolls are a remnant of the days of tabletop and P&P RPGs. We don't need dice anymore and RPGs are not worse because they don't use RNG as much as they used to.
Also, stats and RNG are two different matters. As much as you can have stats modifying your dice rolls, you can have stats modifying your actions as a player.
RNG comes into play if you want to either randomize something or when you wish to create the "gambler's rush" effect (like in loot rolls). In old P&P and tabletop RPGs, dice rolls were necessary. In video game RPGs, they are not.
Who is this "we" you speak for? I definitely want RNGs back in my RPGs. I want to be somebody else, not a digital version of myself. And you make it sound like tabletop RPGs are a bad thing.
Why are die rolls not necessary in video games? What replaces them? If you say player skill, there is nothing to talk about. LARPs used player skill and a lot of imagination instead of die rolls. I have yet to meet someone who does whatever they are trying to do successfully 100% of the time, as MMOs accomplish now. Have you? We are not robots. We are human. Hell, hitting the right key is a hit or miss thing for me, let alone a weapon.
As for player input, yes, we had to face kind of in the right direction. No running away swinging your sword allowed. Makes sense, really. However, I could be looking up at the sky, left, or right and still get a hit, if the RNG was right.
The beauty of RPGs (for me) is building your character. Building their skillset instead of my own. In my opinion, that is pure FPS and has no business in an RPG, where not every attack or defense is the same. But I am in the minority and players will call whatever fits their bill however they want.
Actually no. After darkfall went down and dfuw was a bust I haven't found anything that grabs me. At that point I decided to look into game development and have been having a blast.
Making games is entertaining? It sounds more like work to me. But hey, good for you.
If i were you, i would just go do something else like tv, anime, novels, or just single player games.
tv is meh, can't stand anime, I read for educational purposes and single players games haven't been enjoyable since EQ.
you ever do something other than play games and complain about other people's comments?
Comments
Experiencing victory or failure entirely at random is almost a fundamental component of the classic RPG genre.
The only example you have of defying this was to meta-game and munchkin one's characters. A means that is generally exploiting flaws in a game's mechanics rather than intended features (hence why Blizz would change the hit-cap so players wouldn't be breaking the combat mechanics by removing variables).
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
That pretty much means that the entitlement folks are the ones that wanted a bag of something more than just licorice. That bag of just black jelly beans is old school hardcore.
I think this mistake pretty much sums up the fallacy of the 'old school' > current argument.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
If it were completely random, no one would be interested. The whole basis of good game design is to have the player go through varying challenges with the established rules and reward him/her if he/she does well.
In every RPG, player skill is important. RNG is not a requirement for RPGs.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
A mix of both is essential
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
If i were you, i would just go do something else like tv, anime, novels, or just single player games.
If you look at almost any classic RPG you are going to find that your hit and combat abilities are strictly defined by their stats than they are by your input as a player. Where the "skill" comes in under most these scenarios is sequencing actions and speccing points. The action itself is for the most part a somewhat randomized endeavor where you hope your numbers are higher than your target's numbers. It's only as people have intentionally shifted away from the fundamentals of the genre to explore action gameplay hybrids more and more where that has changed. Even the biggest MMORPG games out right now (for example WoW) are built with a focus on statistics driven combat, not player skill.
And as laserit pointed out, balance tends to work best for RPGs.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Also, stats and RNG are two different matters. As much as you can have stats modifying your dice rolls, you can have stats modifying your actions as a player.
RNG comes into play if you want to either randomize something or when you wish to create the "gambler's rush" effect (like in loot rolls). In old P&P and tabletop RPGs, dice rolls were necessary. In video game RPGs, they are not.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Why the heck would you have any stats if it was solely based on action and skill. Inside your CPU hidden to you there is also a dice roll happening and BINGO when you score a Crit.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Most RPGs are "rolling the dice" for you behind the scenes on every action/event. That's the reason there's stats and the probability of failure, hits, or criticals at all.
Most RPG games quite literally use randomized numbers (within a fixed range) to give variance and potential success/failure to the baseline of character actions.
The dice are still there, dude.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
When your raid group starts a new boss (a new boss designed to be a balanced challenge for your raid group's current progression level), there is zero concern of things being "completely predictable". It's only after considerable repetition that the boss will become fully mastered -- and by that point you'll have moved on to a new raid boss because you're further progressed.
That boss will probably wipe your raid several times before you learn to beat the fight (and several more times before you learn to beat the fight consistently), and yet if you handed all your characters over to a raid team which was familiar with the fight, they would make all the right deterministic decisions to beat it on the very first try. So your raid's repeated wipes were completely the result of players' poor decisions (rooted in their lack of knowledge about executing the fight correctly.)
So there's no concern about MMORPGs being too predictable, even with combat which is largely deterministic and fights being in perfect balance with players' progression.
New content is required to make this work, but that's the nature of games: you have to keep providing new and/or deeper patterns so that things don't become too predictable.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
In a MOBA, a random crit from an auto attack can decide a lane. Nobody wants that to happen. It renders the players' effort and skill to null and you might as well decide the outcome with a fucking coin toss. Do you think that is good for depth or interesting gameplay? No.
And let me give you an example of stats which enhance player actions:
- 50% more damage if you score a critical hit
- your first attack, with 10 second cooldown, does double damage
- you gain a movement speed bonus after each kill
- your attacks penetrate 50% more terrain
- you can hold your breath longer
- etc.
None of these have anything to do with rolling a dice. You can build a character and specialize all without a single dice roll. Again, RNG is not a requirement for RPGs.I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Read carefully: I am not arguing whether or not most RPGs use RNG or not, I am arguing the point that RNG is not a requirement for RPGs. You can have an RPG entirely without dice rolls.
Any suggestion that an RPG is supposed to have to-hit rolls is bullshit.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
First of all, let's separate an "RPG" experience from a "Competitive E-Sport" experience.
RNG enhances a purely entertainment focused RPG experience. A big part of RNG is meant to simulate random things that can happen in an encounter. In real life you will miss throw, miss swing, trip over a rock etc. etc. There will also be times when you make the perfect swing. Think like "David and Goliath", normally Goliath would have ripped David's head off, David wouldn't stand a chance. David didn't strategically aim his stone but just by luck, he had a Crit and One Shotted Goliath.
One of the main things RNG simulates is Luck. Luck is a real thing and it has turned the tide in many a historical encounter, beit from weather, sickness and disease etc.etc.
Balanced RNG adds to the experience.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
This is what my commentary stated.
"You do realize almost every RPG stat-driven system uses RNG as the ultimate deciding factor of any chosen action right?"
Was that me saying they need it? No, that was me saying that, as they are built, almost all of them still utilize that system. You saying that the "don't need it to be an RPG" means just about nothing when addressing that, and is instead an annoying side-tangent you have been pressing further and further.
So read carefully: I am not going to argue the pedantic opinion of some random person. Fact is, most RPGs still rely on very classic systems and almost always have a window of success and failure that rests with RNG mechanics based on player stats. That's the nature of a system where progress and combat is statistically driven and any kind of variance is given.
Can you make a stat-driven or RPG title where there is no variance on action outcomes save for player input? Sure, but not even Diablo 3 does that, they still use damage ranges and crit chances alongside their defense stats.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Why are die rolls not necessary in video games? What replaces them? If you say player skill, there is nothing to talk about. LARPs used player skill and a lot of imagination instead of die rolls. I have yet to meet someone who does whatever they are trying to do successfully 100% of the time, as MMOs accomplish now. Have you? We are not robots. We are human. Hell, hitting the right key is a hit or miss thing for me, let alone a weapon.
As for player input, yes, we had to face kind of in the right direction. No running away swinging your sword allowed. Makes sense, really. However, I could be looking up at the sky, left, or right and still get a hit, if the RNG was right.
The beauty of RPGs (for me) is building your character. Building their skillset instead of my own. In my opinion, that is pure FPS and has no business in an RPG, where not every attack or defense is the same. But I am in the minority and players will call whatever fits their bill however they want.
VG
you ever do something other than play games and complain about other people's comments?