PVP being placed in a game designed for PVE

k61977

I spend a lot of time just reading post and do not reply to a lot of them.   I keep seeing a theme in a lot of discussions that are basically PVP vs PVE.  The two types of games do not really go together all that great.  When a game is designed around the PVP aspect you have to worry about the classes being balanced, etc...Whereas if you are developing a game for PVE you can have unbalanced classes because you are not competing against the other players.

Here is where I see the problem come in.  It is when a developer is developing a game for one or the other styles and then thinks well we should throw in the other to get more customers or gamers.  As soon as you introduce that arena PVP into the PVE game you have to constantly change the classes for balance issues.  Now instead of players learning a way to play their classes they constantly have to rework their builds and play habits because they buff or nerf this or that every other month.  That still isn't really the issue though, the true issue is that instead of the developer working to improve other aspects of the game they are now devoting major time to balance classes over and over that could have been used to tweak bugs or content problems.

Don't get me wrong I am all for a PVP game that is designed from start to finish with that playstyle in mind.  I think it hinders PVP players when they are having to worry about the gear treadmill of the PVE games.  And having two armor sets isn't the right way to go either.  This is why a lot of the games have started saying gear is flat and doesn't help you when you enter PVP.   It can be extremely hard to develop a system that works for PVP were nothing gives an advantage and still have some type of PVE system in the game.  Can't imagine never getting an armor upgrade or skill upgrade because it would give you an advantage over others. 

This is just my opinion on this.  Basically I am saying developers should choose a style and stick with it and stop trying to develop the one game that will rule them all.

Sovrath

k61977 said:

I spend a lot of time just reading post and do not reply to a lot of them.   I keep seeing a theme in a lot of discussions that are basically PVP vs PVE.  .  As soon as you introduce that arena PVP into the PVE game you have to constantly change the classes for balance issues.  

Why can't developers create pvp adversaries based off of classes and then they can have pvp and pve at the same time, pve would just be ai controlled?

SEANMCAD

I dont like the idea of mixing pve games with pvp at all whatsoever. They can be the same game on two completely different servers but together the idea is horse poop.

Only the sociopaths want to pve in their pvp, they are 100% just looking for easy targets to bully, nothing more

Flyte27

I agree, but there are more things to take into account than just PvP's impact on PvE.

PvE has it's own differences over the years.  Some people like a game focused on raiding.  Others like a slow progression through the whole world where you can stop and smell the roses.  Some don't like leveling at all.  You also have to consider weather the game will be entirely focused on combat or if there will be roles to play/skills that can be just for something else like crafting or stealing.

I usually prefer a game focused on PvE open world with long progression and a variety of different roles that includes non combat.  Dungeons are nice, but I'd rather not see a fractured world split apart by instances.
Some people have thrown out some potential concepts for dynamic worlds where instances might not be needed.

I thought Ultima Online was a fun open world  PvE game, but eventually it can start to wear on you when you get killed a lot and have all your days work stolen.  It's unfortunate, but playing that way is often not worth the effort.  Most people will give up the non combat roles and focus on improving skills to defend themselves from PvPers.

Balance does bore me a bit in a fantasy world.  It means no matter what you do people will be equal in terms of output.  It also means most utility spells/buffs will be heavily neutered.  That means a lot less fun abilities available and a lot more restrictions on what you can do.

cameltosis

Sorry but I disagree entirely. 

From a personal point of view, I enjoy both PvE and PvP. The overwhelming majority of people I've met in MMORPGs enjoy both. Sure, most people lean one way or the other, but still enjoy both. So, why can't we have an MMO with both? I'd never play an MMO which was purely one or the other. 


Secondly, the balance issue. I get very frustrated by the amount of complaining that comes from casual PvErs about their class getting nerfed due to PvP. In the two big PvE orientated MMOs I've played (LotRO and SW:TOR) we used to hear these complaints all the time. However, the reality was the opposite: the vast majority of nerfs / balancing came about as a result of PvE. Sure, sometimes classes get balanced due to PvP, but this almost always happens because PvP has highlighted an issue that also affects PvE. It was very rare to get nerfed because of PvP and the few times I saw it happen it barely affected the PvE for that class.



Ultimately, it comes down to how much effort the developer is willing to put in to create enjoyable, deep experiences for their players. I don't have a problem with developers having both PvP and PvE in their games - I think its a damn good idea - however, I do have a problem if one aspect is "tacked on". 

It takes skill to create good gameplay that works for both PvE and PvP. Unfortunately, not that many designers have that skill which is why we see complaints like the OP. 


One very simple way to get around the balance issue is to change the way skills work in PvP zones. That 10s mez proving to be OP in PvP? Just reduce it to 3s in the PvP zones! Have separate gear treadmills if you think it'll help. Apply class specific buffs / debuffs whilst in PvP zones. 



There are tons of ways to make PvP and PvE work alongside each other in an MMORPG. I also think its very good for the long term health of an MMO if it provides both activities. The developer just has to make a conscious effort to build the game with both aspects in mind, rather than tacking one onto the other. 

SavageHorizon

Well we have a couple of mmo's coming that are PVE games so not to worry. If they have PVP servers and it's a PVE game then as long as the PVE comes first and the PVP doesn't effect the PVE i don't care.

k61977

Flyte27 said:

I agree, but there are more things to take into account than just PvP's impact on PvE.

PvE has it's own differences over the years.  Some people like a game focused on raiding.  Others like a slow progression through the whole world where you can stop and smell the roses.  Some don't like leveling at all.  You also have to consider weather the game will be entirely focused on combat or if there will be roles to play/skills that can be just for something else like crafting or stealing.

I usually prefer a game focused on PvE open world with long progression and a variety of different roles that includes non combat.  Dungeons are nice, but I'd rather not see a fractured world split apart by instances.
Some people have thrown out some potential concepts for dynamic worlds where instances might not be needed.

I thought Ultima Online was a fun open world  PvE game, but eventually it can start to wear on you when you get killed a lot and have all your days work stolen.  It's unfortunate, but playing that way is often not worth the effort.  Most people will give up the non combat roles and focus on improving skills to defend themselves from PvPers.

Balance does bore me a bit in a fantasy world.  It means no matter what you do people will be equal in terms of output.  It also means most utility spells/buffs will be heavily neutered.  That means a lot less fun abilities available and a lot more restrictions on what you can do.

I agree with you 100%.  I think Ultima was the first MMO I played myself, stopped playing after it became a who has the bigger group of PKers.

But I was trying to say it swings both ways really PVP can mess you PVE, but PVE messes up PVP to.  That was why I focused on just the PVP aspect.  There really isn't a middle ground for the two meet that I can think of, or at least that I have played where one didn't change the flow of how the other played.

Vorthanion

I prefer separate servers for PvE and PvP.  I don't care for the behavior of some of the PvP crowd and I don't like mechanics put in place to specifically ruin your day.  It's the reason why I don't play games like Darkfall and Archeage.

Thank goodness there is Pantheon and Shroud of the Avatar coming down the pike.  My PvE go to games are getting really long in the tooth and I need something fresh and modern.

SEANMCAD

Vorthanion said:

I prefer separate servers for PvE and PvP.  I don't care for the behavior of some of the PvP crowd and I don't like mechanics put in place to specifically ruin your day.  It's the reason why I don't play games like Darkfall and Archeage.

Thank goodness there is Pantheon and Shroud of the Avatar coming down the pike.  My PvE go to games are getting really long in the tooth and I need something fresh and modern.

I like how Wurm does it.

want to play PVP? well you can either spawn a new character on the PVP server which is a different continent from the rest or you can take a boat and sail there or build a portal

Skill gains on PvP is faster so the the only 'cheat because of two servers' is to skill up on PvP and then go back to PvE where nobody really cares what you skill level is anyway. 

cameltosis

Vorthanion said:

I prefer separate servers for PvE and PvP.  I don't care for the behavior of some of the PvP crowd and I don't like mechanics put in place to specifically ruin your day.  It's the reason why I don't play games like Darkfall and Archeage.

Thank goodness there is Pantheon and Shroud of the Avatar coming down the pike.  My PvE go to games are getting really long in the tooth and I need something fresh and modern.

You only need separate servers if

a) PvP is non-consensual i.e. everyone can pvp all the time, anywhere
b) PvP isn't restricted to specific zones

The reality is that extremely few MMORPGs meet both criteria. For example, in SW:TOR, world pvp is opt-in, i.e. you have to specifically flag yourself as wanting to pvp. In LotRO, you can only pvp in the ettenmoors zone. Hell, even in WAR, you only got flagged for pvp if you entered a scenario, a pvp flag or you manually flagged yourself. 


As to behaviour, its 6of1 half-a-dozen of the other. The game as a whole tends to influence community behaviour more than pvp/pve. The WAR community, for example, was better than the SW:TOR community (at least on the servers I played on). I will concede that PvP, by its nature, creates more scenarios where players lose which can be frustrating and lead to people being emotional. However, again, it depends on the game. If the player feels they've lost because of skill, they're generally alright with it. If they feel they've lost due to things out of their control (e.g. griefing / ganking / gear gaps / power gaps / level gaps / whatever) then they get more annoyed. 

Sovrath

SEANMCAD said:

I dont like the idea of mixing pve games with pvp at all whatsoever. They can be the same game on two completely different servers but together the idea is horse poop.

Only the sociopaths want to pve in their pvp, they are 100% just looking for easy targets to bully, nothing more

I would say that I enjoy both pvp and pve together and I only ever pk the "annoying people" or the "pk'ers" and you would be hard pressed to prove I was a sociopath.

I think you are basing your judgment off of stereotypes and essentially the louder, more obnoxious people who typify this behavior.

k61977

Here is the problem with having separate server sets.  They will still only have one development team working on the game.  So any changes made to one set happens to the other set to.  The developers don't want two entirely different coded games other than PVP on vs PVP off.

What I am saying is they make changes because let say a mage is face rolling people and unkillable.  They then apply the same nerfs to the strictly PVE server also when it wasn't needed on the PVE server.  That is the problem PVP shouldn't be changing the way a PVE class plays. 

A way to approach this is make entirely new skills that only work for PVP or PVE. So you cannot use the skills in the other.  Maybe it is the same skill but has a different name so that when they tweet it over and over they do not have to change the other skill.  Which would not effect the other player base. 

But even with this we end up with extra coding to just copy and paste and only change the object name in the code.  This is more than a lot of developers want because again the code begins to get bloated because you would have duplicates of ever skill with different object names.  Imagine if the coder accidentally changed the wrong one you would have players in an uproar.



Unfortunately I have never played Wurm Seanmcad so I can't comment on how they do it.  But as long as the PVP doesn't change the PVE skills of level them up that sounds like a good way to do it maybe.  

DarLorkar

This works both ways. 

And is worse in PVP games that have a PVE server thrown out there.

Problem is that devs have only so much time and they can not make each server have it's own rules. Which is the only real way to make it work flawlessly. 

So we get this mish mash of pve/pvp rules trying to get along and it only works to a certain point. Then the worlds collide and problems arise because both can not always work with rules that are not meant to be shared.

Comes down to time and cash. Dev's have to pick a side to to make the rules fit best and the other just gets the short end of the stick. 

k61977

DarLorkar said:

This works both ways. 

And is worse in PVP games that have a PVE server thrown out there.

Problem is that devs have only so much time and they can not make each server have it's own rules. Which is the only real way to make it work flawlessly. 

So we get this mish mash of pve/pvp rules trying to get along and it only works to a certain point. Then the worlds collide and problems arise because both can not always work with rules that are not meant to be shared.

Comes down to time and cash. Dev's have to pick a side to to make the rules fit best and the other just gets the short end of the stick. 

k61977 said:

I agree with you 100%.  I think Ultima was the first MMO I played myself, stopped playing after it became a who has the bigger group of PKers.

But I was trying to say it swings both ways really PVP can mess you PVE, but PVE messes up PVP to.  That was why I focused on just the PVP aspect.  There really isn't a middle ground for the two meet that I can think of, or at least that I have played where one didn't change the flow of how the other played.

Just wanted to say I agree with you about the both ways.

Horusra

Sovrath said:

SEANMCAD said:

I dont like the idea of mixing pve games with pvp at all whatsoever. They can be the same game on two completely different servers but together the idea is horse poop.

Only the sociopaths want to pve in their pvp, they are 100% just looking for easy targets to bully, nothing more

I would say that I enjoy both pvp and pve together and I only ever pk the "annoying people" or the "pk'ers" and you would be hard pressed to prove I was a sociopath.

I think you are basing your judgment off of stereotypes and essentially the louder, more obnoxious people who typify this behavior.

In the sense that a game can show it killing people that annoy you is kind of what a sociopath would do.

Asm0deus

cameltosis said:

...snip...

Secondly, the balance issue. I get very frustrated by the amount of complaining that comes from casual PvErs about their class getting nerfed due to PvP. In the two big PvE orientated MMOs I've played (LotRO and SW:TOR) we used to hear these complaints all the time. However, the reality was the opposite: the vast majority of nerfs / balancing came about as a result of PvE. Sure, sometimes classes get balanced due to PvP, but this almost always happens because PvP has highlighted an issue that also affects PvE. It was very rare to get nerfed because of PvP and the few times I saw it happen it barely affected the PvE for that class.



...snip...

Here's the problem when you balance for pvp your balancing the classes vs other players and the classes they use.

When you balance for pve you balance vs AI and the mobs which are not classes.

What happens is you can't balance class skill for both vs other players AND vs mobs thus the moans and groans from both groups of nerfage due to the opposite group.

One side always suffers to make thing half decent for the other side.

I would agree when making games either decide is it a pvp game or pve and stick with that otherwise be aware you won't have the best of both worlds.

Sovrath

Horusra said:

Sovrath said:

SEANMCAD said:

I dont like the idea of mixing pve games with pvp at all whatsoever. They can be the same game on two completely different servers but together the idea is horse poop.

Only the sociopaths want to pve in their pvp, they are 100% just looking for easy targets to bully, nothing more

I would say that I enjoy both pvp and pve together and I only ever pk the "annoying people" or the "pk'ers" and you would be hard pressed to prove I was a sociopath.

I think you are basing your judgment off of stereotypes and essentially the louder, more obnoxious people who typify this behavior.

In the sense that a game can show it killing people that annoy you is kind of what a sociopath would do.

Well, I was more talking about other pk'ers, guys who would train mobs on you, the kill-steal people, etc.

Gdemami

Mixing PVP and PVE has nothing to do with class balancing...

All the issue with mixing PVP and PVE stem from simple, obvious fact that they are 2 different play styles. This often results in major problem:

One being required in order to perform the other - typically gear or levels being obtainable via PVE so you can do PVP or other opposite PVE tied to PVP active areas.

The other, very closely related, issue are rewards. Both play styles sports very different incentives that are merely mutually exclusive - PVP players want "equal playing ground" but PVE players love the opposite, they love progression and new shiny,inhritedly creating disparity between players. How to create incentives for PVE players without affecting PVP players? That is hard nut to crack.

 

breadm1x

All games should have PVP.
So i can whisper sweet things in DMKano's ear...
(holding it in my hand while he is  10 meters away from me)

breadm1x

Sovrath said:

Horusra said:

Sovrath said:

SEANMCAD said:

I dont like the idea of mixing pve games with pvp at all whatsoever. They can be the same game on two completely different servers but together the idea is horse poop.

Only the sociopaths want to pve in their pvp, they are 100% just looking for easy targets to bully, nothing more

I would say that I enjoy both pvp and pve together and I only ever pk the "annoying people" or the "pk'ers" and you would be hard pressed to prove I was a sociopath.

I think you are basing your judgment off of stereotypes and essentially the louder, more obnoxious people who typify this behavior.

In the sense that a game can show it killing people that annoy you is kind of what a sociopath would do.

Well, I was more talking about other pk'ers, guys who would train mobs on you, the kill-steal people, etc.

Eh you do know what a PK'er is right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_player#Player_killing

Octagon7711

I like games in which you can simply flag yourself for pvp if you want to pvp.  

Sanisar

Part of the problem with all of the issues in MMOs these days is that the genre has stagnated so long and become so narrow that nobody even thinks beyond the existing scope.

DAoC was one of the worst balanced games I ever played.  I had many characters two of which were berserker and shadowblade.  Before the left axe (their main weapon skill) nerf, they were both insanely powerful; after the nerf they were completely unplayable.  Did any of that even really matter?  People still played the game and loved it.  

Albion was fundamentally flawed by design in that they had too many classes and the important skill trees were spread too thin across them.  I believe it was the most populated realm, certainly it wasn't underpopulated.

As long as you don't balance combat around arenas or duels does it even matter?

Also, if you are a PvE only player and your character gets nerfed because PvP brought an imbalance to light why are you mad about it?  The only reason I would be mad is if the nerf broke my character (like  the LA nerf).  I mean, I actually want characters to be balanced in PvP and PvE.  

The problem isn't the balancing; the problem is that players (most often PvE players in my experience) flip out any time their character is nerfed and go on a crusade against whatever they perceive as the cause (usually PvPers).  The don't actually care that their character was broken or overpowered before or even if still is, they just care that it's worse than yesterday and it's somebody's fault.

I can't believe that we've reached the point where people actually want mutually exclusive PvE and PvP games just so they don't have to worry about their class getting nerfed.  What pray tell are you going to do when your class gets nerfed because some .1% raiding guild does something broken?

jmcdermottuk

Personally I think that PvP is fundamentally flawed in MMORPG's, expecially ones that are class based. Those are the ones that all stem from table top games like D&D which was at it's core a co-op game. Balance is an issue between classes and anyone saying otherwise is deluding themselves.

Levels add to the problem, making things even more unbalanced and then you get gear with rediculous stats thrown into the mix.

You tend to find better PvP in MMO's that are skill based, no levels and don't have drastically vertical gear progression. Yeah, loads of those around, right? About as common as rocking horse shite.

FPS games, on the other hand, are perfect for PvP. Well, they used to be. They used to be a fairly level playing field but unfortunately the modern FPS has started to include RPG elements like levels or crafting and loot items. Then there's the dreaded Cash Shop. Drop a few dollars/pounds, get yourself a BFG and pewpew.

I think that modern/current gaming is pretty shit, to be honest. No rose coloured glasses or nostalgia going on here. You just need to look at what's going on with scripted, on rails, QT fucking E riddled, P2W, retarded fucking eye candy. That's what we get today.

In the last 2 years I don't think I've bought a single game that I played for more than a couple of hours.

Bit of a rant there, hehe. So, yeah PvP is bad in MMO's.

simsalabim77

SEANMCAD said:

I dont like the idea of mixing pve games with pvp at all whatsoever. They can be the same game on two completely different servers but together the idea is horse poop.

Only the sociopaths want to pve in their pvp, they are 100% just looking for easy targets to bully, nothing more

Thanks for the explanation Dr. Freud. Shockingly, and in a bizarre twist nobody could ever predict, there are players who DO enjoy PVE and PVP, and they don't mind if one spills over into another. I personally could not play an MMORPG on a PVE server, and if I do have the misfortune of being bored on a PVE server, I walk around flagged.

Going from one quest hub to the next is way too boring without the ever-present threat of someone ganking me. It makes the game more interesting. Random guild fights in ZF when people were going to raid was fun. Seeing a massive scattering of corpses on the way to MC was fun. Something crazy had happened there. I didn't mind PVP coming into PVE at all, and actually looked forward to something random and different happening. 

SEANMCAD

simsalabim77 said:

SEANMCAD said:

I dont like the idea of mixing pve games with pvp at all whatsoever. They can be the same game on two completely different servers but together the idea is horse poop.

Only the sociopaths want to pve in their pvp, they are 100% just looking for easy targets to bully, nothing more

Thanks for the explanation Dr. Freud. Shockingly, and in a bizarre twist nobody could ever predict, there are players who DO enjoy PVE and PVP, and they don't mind if one spills over into another. I personally could not play an MMORPG on a PVE server, and if I do have the misfortune of being bored on a PVE server, I walk around flagged.

Going from one quest hub to the next is way too boring without the ever-present threat of someone ganking me. It makes the game more interesting. Random guild fights in ZF when people were going to raid was fun. Seeing a massive scattering of corpses on the way to MC was fun. Something crazy had happened there. I didn't mind PVP coming into PVE at all, and actually looked forward to something random and different happening. 

so given that you dont like PvE servers then by action you agree with me. perhaphs not the reasoning.

Axehilt

Personally I would prefer MMORPGs to focus solely on PVE because that's the only gameplay I'm going to bother with in a MMORPG.

But MMORPGs aren't made for just me, and it makes a lot of sense business-wise to tack on PVP (even if it's just tacked on) because quite a lot of players enjoy casual PVP in their RPGs.