Maybe eastern players do grasp the simple fact that paying customers should have an advantage over freeloaders?
Most of the anti-p2w threads on these boards originate from spoiled persons demanding to a) not to pay a dime and b) have the same benefits with the players paying.
It's classical western self-entitled behavior.
I think many would just want to pay a fair price to keep the games integrity in place. If I join a basketball league I want to pay the entrance fee and not worry about paying the referee off because I don't have time to practice or play.
everytime I read a gamer talking about 'fair play' based on my personal experience playing darkfall I can not help but instantly think 'he got his ass handed to him fairly but because he lost he is throwing up the not-fair flag'
I know its a bias I try to avoid it but it pops up every single time.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
As a Korean, I am proud of our gaming industry. We know what options there are in the west and just about every single western MMO also has a cash shop. Our country is the only one consistently churning out quality MMOs. Your idea may be different as to what quality means but we at least are not afraid to spend top dollar making games within the genre. The western market can not say the same. Like our games or not we at least are constantly making new games.
I'm not all that familiar with the history of MMOs in Korea, but IIRC Korean games developed what the western market calls the Free to Play model originally. Also, IIRC, the subscription model for Western MMOs in Asia (thinking WoW here) has always been different than in the West. Players paid for time as played rather than a month at time.
Whereas westerners took the "Free" label to heart and have attempted to
make it mean "I get everything", Koreans have probably never made that
mistake. And that may be cultural indeed, seeing as they live on the edge of oblivion, right next to not only 1) the largest army in the world (China) but 2) the most belligerently insane nation in the world (North Korea).
Maybe Easterners don't hate on people that suffer from such shallow and insignificant lives that they have to win to enjoy themselves. Maybe Easterners just think to themselves "I'm glad I'm not that guy"
at least speaking for asia my lifetime impression is that by comparision they could not care less about status. which contradicts what I accepted as true in this thread.
basically to the core question I have no idea but i find the discussion interesting.
True, its only possible to speculate when viewing from the 'outside'. But when you hear how serious they take their games, and the amounts spent in them, you have to wonder why that is, if its not a 'status' thing, even if its a 'perceived' status, then how is it that P2W is accepted on so large a scale, and apparently, with full knowledge and consent, something that would be inconceiveable here in the west, where buying any kind of an advantage is viewed with such disdain, at least openly, whether this is the case behind the scenes, i am beginning to wonder, although i know personally that for me, if i have to buy the win, then there is no satisfaction of pleasure gained from doing so, only shame.
well first off we (including me and the OP) are assuming the question itself is even based on how it really is in the first place. which speaking for myself I have actually have zero idea if its even really true. second off, I think Asia has a younger population which is also 2nd generation gamers so they are more accepting to all things gaming related
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
How can you say Westerner's hate it when Western cash shop's are doing so well?
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I think its a status symbol kind of thing, in Korea etc. if you can buy the win, if you can demonstrate to others that you are somehow a person of substance, it somehow increases your status among other players, at least, thats how it looks from the outside. That kind of behaviour doesn't really appeal all that much in the west though, as its viewed as being a bit shallow.
That is not even remotely true. P2W mechanics exist in Western games just as much as Eastern games. We just produce more games. E-Peen is a universal thing not a nationality thing.
hmmmm now wait a minute, there could be something to that.
I dated korean woman who basically told me that it was considered a status thing to be able to support your children and give them money even if those children were adults.
No one is saying that there are no Pay to X elements (one can argue what the "win" is elsewhere if one can even agree on it which it seems we never can) in the west but why cash shops not only started in the east but it's considered acceptable.
Of course, maybe we are only getting second hand info there but it does seem like eastern games have no issues with cash shops.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Maybe eastern players do grasp the simple fact that paying customers should have an advantage over freeloaders?
Most of the anti-p2w threads on these boards originate from spoiled persons demanding to a) not to pay a dime and b) have the same benefits with the players paying.
It's classical western self-entitled behavior.
I think many would just want to pay a fair price to keep the games integrity in place. If I join a basketball league I want to pay the entrance fee and not worry about paying the referee off because I don't have time to practice or play.
everytime I read a gamer talking about 'fair play' based on my personal experience playing darkfall I can not help but instantly think 'he got his ass handed to him fairly but because he lost he is throwing up the not-fair flag'
I know its a bias I try to avoid it but it pops up every single time.
Well, when a player wins a fight because he bought something, then its called P2W, but when a player, or players win a fight because they had numerical or other type of advantage, its usually called tactics
Maybe eastern players do grasp the simple fact that paying customers should have an advantage over freeloaders?
Most of the anti-p2w threads on these boards originate from spoiled persons demanding to a) not to pay a dime and b) have the same benefits with the players paying.
It's classical western self-entitled behavior.
I think many would just want to pay a fair price to keep the games integrity in place. If I join a basketball league I want to pay the entrance fee and not worry about paying the referee off because I don't have time to practice or play.
everytime I read a gamer talking about 'fair play' based on my personal experience playing darkfall I can not help but instantly think 'he got his ass handed to him fairly but because he lost he is throwing up the not-fair flag'
I know its a bias I try to avoid it but it pops up every single time.
Well, when a player wins a fight because he bought something, then its called P2W, but when a player, or players win a fight because they had numerical or other type of advantage, its usually called tactics
like i said, I know its a bias but its something that pops up in my head every single time.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Well, when a player wins a fight because he bought something, then its called P2W, but when a player, or players win a fight because they had numerical or other type of advantage, its usually called tactics
No, the latter is called gank and "psychopaths" these days...
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Maybe eastern players do grasp the simple fact that paying customers should have an advantage over freeloaders?
Most of the anti-p2w threads on these boards originate from spoiled persons demanding to a) not to pay a dime and b) have the same benefits with the players paying.
It's classical western self-entitled behavior.
I think many would just want to pay a fair price to keep the games integrity in place. If I join a basketball league I want to pay the entrance fee and not worry about paying the referee off because I don't have time to practice or play.
everytime I read a gamer talking about 'fair play' based on my personal experience playing darkfall I can not help but instantly think 'he got his ass handed to him fairly but because he lost he is throwing up the not-fair flag'
I know its a bias I try to avoid it but it pops up every single time.
Well, when a player wins a fight because he bought something, then its called P2W, but when a player, or players win a fight because they had numerical or other type of advantage, its usually called tactics
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
probably because that is the model they are used to.
IMPORTANT: Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING. Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally. If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead. I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING. Thank you.
Is Blade and Soul the same as BDO? Is Bless the same as TERA? No we are making games we want to play. Lineage is still played by more people than anything else. We are a competitive people by nature. So are Westerners. Our sports are Video Games Western Sports are with Balls.
No but the majority of the Korean MMO market is throw away games with exactly the same features that last less than a year. They're not much different than the console game market in that respect. There will always be exceptions of course. Video games aren't sports they're activities as most competitions are. Far more people watch and/or gamble on sports than play them competitively.
I disagree that most of our games are throw away games. Video games are a sport. To millions around the world. Activision-Blizzard just hired an ESPN guy to head their Esports division. The western world is embracing Video Games as sport just as our country has done for years now.
Question:
was e-sports popular before Valve came in or did Valve look at Asia as an opportunity for such a model
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Maybe eastern players do grasp the simple fact that paying customers should have an advantage over freeloaders?
Most of the anti-p2w threads on these boards originate from spoiled persons demanding to a) not to pay a dime and b) have the same benefits with the players paying.
It's classical western self-entitled behavior.
I think many would just want to pay a fair price to keep the games integrity in place. If I join a basketball league I want to pay the entrance fee and not worry about paying the referee off because I don't have time to practice or play.
everytime I read a gamer talking about 'fair play' based on my personal experience playing darkfall I can not help but instantly think 'he got his ass handed to him fairly but because he lost he is throwing up the not-fair flag'
I know its a bias I try to avoid it but it pops up every single time.
Not sure what that has to do with pay to win or what I said. I played UO not Darkfall and was a PK.
"Fair price" not fair play means that we are paying a baseline fee and actually play the game a lot or a little. My opinion is the integrity of the game is lost when your paying for favor or advantages.
No matter where you are in a game, P2W is the fastest way to start winning
West is mad because our peers aren't playing like we do and now doing circles around us because we are too cheap to free up wallet
Conclusion: Not sure its a West thing, but more of a human truth thing. To be fair, maybe the West likes to call things out when game cheap shots us...no pun intended.
Some people like P2W because it feels like they are actually ahead of everyone else. Also the fame and status that comes with the item, this is similar to why nearly 50% of luxury goods are purchased in China vs the rest of the world. The three main markets are China, Korean and Japan and they all have different reasons to enter the F2P market, but there is still the market. Not sure the direct reasons, but for Korea they have PC bangs where people just spend money on time to rent a pc to play games also PCs are fairly expensive yet common there. In Japan up to 15% of players in F2P end up spending money vs 5% of players in western markets yet Japanese players spend up to 3 times more on average for each player that spends money on F2P games vs the US.
According to wiki where facts may be made up Korea and Russia were the fastest growing markets for F2P games part of the reason is that people were willing to pay monthly in F2P games for an advantage or F2P games in both better servers and items. In Russia the super rich usually pay for unique or better items in and command a surprising share of up to 10% of certain F2P games playerbase. In Korea people want better items and if you play Korean mmos certain ones will have unique comestic items as well as powerful skinned items with stats. Generally people in F2P games with the money to spend and like the games are willing to do so.
A common theme is that Easterns value the group and Westerns value the individual. While it is not usually acceptable to stand out, in F2P games people can show their individuality and gear. In reality though consumers in most markets spend money in F2P games and an advantage is avoidance in loss of money in piracy. Also if you look carefully at F2P games they do spend alot of money as well and there are players willing to pay subscriptions and buy unique items.
One item that I miss in mmos are growth items these are usually purchased items in mmos and they grow in stats so they are useable from the start of the game to the end of the game. Often times they will also have unique cosmetics so for a certain group of players they will find high value and willing to spending money early in a F2P game. For players that value equality some do not like the idea that paying in a F2P game will offer advantages in a way that cannot be achieved in a set amount of time.
Also there is a tip according to restaurant tipping stats world wide China, Korea and Japan are the only countries without tipping while UAE, US, Qatar, and Canada and the only countries that tip 15-20%. The rest of the world tips 10% on average and it may be included as a service charge. You may be able to hand an additional 10%, but usually directly to the server or it may be assumed to be either a mistake or for the owner. For certain more developed western countries though the average is 10-15%. Of course you can hand money to the host or hostess in certain places to get in the door. Typing this while think of food is not a good idea, so lets eat.
No matter where you are in a game, P2W is the fastest way to start winning
West is mad because our peers aren't playing like we do and now doing circles around us because we are too cheap to free up wallet
Conclusion: Not sure its a West thing, but more of a human truth thing. To be fair, maybe the West likes to call things out when game cheap shots us...no pun intended.
as a westerner myself who has watched their behavor for most of my life and who doesnt normally conform to their ways I have found westerners do not think twice about spending money on high ticket items but when it comes to anything under 50 (correction $700) they freak the F out. WHy? I have no idea
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Counter Strike did. So did StarCraft. Our online e-sports market exploded after the crisis of 97 (Asian) when broadband really spread out across the country.
good to know because I was going to make an assumption that was completely wrong
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Maybe eastern players do grasp the simple fact that paying customers should have an advantage over freeloaders?
Most of the anti-p2w threads on these boards originate from spoiled persons demanding to a) not to pay a dime and b) have the same benefits with the players paying.
It's classical western self-entitled behavior.
Yes, too many freeloaders. They might claim to be fighting greed or other noble cause but bs, they are just freeloaders.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Is Blade and Soul the same as BDO? Is Bless the same as TERA? No we are making games we want to play. Lineage is still played by more people than anything else. We are a competitive people by nature. So are Westerners. Our sports are Video Games Western Sports are with Balls.
I had to lol because that last phrase could be interpreted on a few levels. What is it with western culture and passing their balls, dribbling their balls, using feet with their balls, and in one case occasionally spitting on their balls. Maybe that's one reason I've been more interested in D&D and gaming growing up in the west than I was with sports. Ball handling had a limited interest to me.
balls are related to tradition. why is it tradition? not a friggin clue
wait..
maybe its because religion tends to be fearful of things that are not traditional and making religion unhappy in the west means burning in hell forever.
maybe...just throwing things out there
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
If you read some of the posts here you might infer that in the East gaming is a hobby and worth paying for but in the West it is a "!God damn given right to play what we want, when we want and not pay a dime!!!!"
Oh, cut that crap. People are people. The "entitled" exist everywhere as well as those who want to find a good game for a good value and those who will throw money at everything.
No matter where you are in a game, P2W is the fastest way to start winning
West is mad because our peers aren't playing like we do and now doing circles around us because we are too cheap to free up wallet
Conclusion: Not sure its a West thing, but more of a human truth thing. To be fair, maybe the West likes to call things out when game cheap shots us...no pun intended.
as a westerner myself who has watched their behavor for most of my life and who doesnt normally conform to their ways I have found westerners do not think twice about spending money on high ticket items but when it comes to anything under 50 (correction $700) they freak the F out. WHy? I have no idea
ikr? Sure, I don't like to spend too however EQ2 took a lot of money from me when I needed that edge to slay more toons and the money was well spent IMO. Hey, I didn't always belong to a PvE guild too crash a dungeon and farm stuff.
Comments
I know its a bias I try to avoid it but it pops up every single time.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I doubt the Korean approach to gaming has anything to do with their being "used to being screwed over because they are not a democracy", since Korea's been a democracy since the middle of the last century. http://www.korea.net/AboutKorea/History/Transition-Democracy-Transformation-Economic-Powerhouse
Whereas westerners took the "Free" label to heart and have attempted to make it mean "I get everything", Koreans have probably never made that mistake. And that may be cultural indeed, seeing as they live on the edge of oblivion, right next to not only 1) the largest army in the world (China) but 2) the most belligerently insane nation in the world (North Korea).
second off, I think Asia has a younger population which is also 2nd generation gamers so they are more accepting to all things gaming related
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I dated korean woman who basically told me that it was considered a status thing to be able to support your children and give them money even if those children were adults.
No one is saying that there are no Pay to X elements (one can argue what the "win" is elsewhere if one can even agree on it which it seems we never can) in the west but why cash shops not only started in the east but it's considered acceptable.
Of course, maybe we are only getting second hand info there but it does seem like eastern games have no issues with cash shops.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
You win the forums for the day.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
was e-sports popular before Valve came in or did Valve look at Asia as an opportunity for such a model
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
"Fair price" not fair play means that we are paying a baseline fee and actually play the game a lot or a little. My opinion is the integrity of the game is lost when your paying for favor or advantages.
Let me get this right...
No matter where you are in a game, P2W is the fastest way to start winning
West is mad because our peers aren't playing like we do and now doing circles around us because we are too cheap to free up wallet
Conclusion: Not sure its a West thing, but more of a human truth thing. To be fair, maybe the West likes to call things out when game cheap shots us...no pun intended.
According to wiki where facts may be made up Korea and Russia were the fastest growing markets for F2P games part of the reason is that people were willing to pay monthly in F2P games for an advantage or F2P games in both better servers and items. In Russia the super rich usually pay for unique or better items in and command a surprising share of up to 10% of certain F2P games playerbase. In Korea people want better items and if you play Korean mmos certain ones will have unique comestic items as well as powerful skinned items with stats. Generally people in F2P games with the money to spend and like the games are willing to do so.
A common theme is that Easterns value the group and Westerns value the individual. While it is not usually acceptable to stand out, in F2P games people can show their individuality and gear. In reality though consumers in most markets spend money in F2P games and an advantage is avoidance in loss of money in piracy. Also if you look carefully at F2P games they do spend alot of money as well and there are players willing to pay subscriptions and buy unique items.
One item that I miss in mmos are growth items these are usually purchased items in mmos and they grow in stats so they are useable from the start of the game to the end of the game. Often times they will also have unique cosmetics so for a certain group of players they will find high value and willing to spending money early in a F2P game. For players that value equality some do not like the idea that paying in a F2P game will offer advantages in a way that cannot be achieved in a set amount of time.
Also there is a tip according to restaurant tipping stats world wide China, Korea and Japan are the only countries without tipping while UAE, US, Qatar, and Canada and the only countries that tip 15-20%. The rest of the world tips 10% on average and it may be included as a service charge. You may be able to hand an additional 10%, but usually directly to the server or it may be assumed to be either a mistake or for the owner. For certain more developed western countries though the average is 10-15%. Of course you can hand money to the host or hostess in certain places to get in the door. Typing this while think of food is not a good idea, so lets eat.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Yes, too many freeloaders. They might claim to be fighting greed or other noble cause but bs, they are just freeloaders.
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https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
why is it tradition? not a friggin clue
wait..
maybe its because religion tends to be fearful of things that are not traditional and making religion unhappy in the west means burning in hell forever.
maybe...just throwing things out there
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
ikr? Sure, I don't like to spend too however EQ2 took a lot of money from me when I needed that edge to slay more toons and the money was well spent IMO. Hey, I didn't always belong to a PvE guild too crash a dungeon and farm stuff.