Map systems and player known locations

Sinist

I was thinking about this, and my advice to VR is no tangible assets as it concerns being able to discern ones location in the game.   That is... ZERO indicators... No maps, no command lines to discern x, y, z, axis... nothing. Make people learn via landmark. Make people  know locations by relative nature. Make them say "Hey, we are over by the old statue of Tunare... not "We are over at 570 x 390 y". People want immersion, then give it to them, not this "easy mode".

Benjola

I played EQ with no maps when I didn't know the zones (was getting lost on Velious and Karanas regulary hehe) and with custom made maps with everything marked (including nameds) and with no maps when I knew the zones very well (on p99), and I can't say for sure which style i preffer.
I guess it depends on my mood, days when I log in tired and want to do some quick quest or something, I want maps but then sometimes I feel adventurous and want to explore zones with no help of maps.

Basically, I don't feel strongly about the issue one way or another.
I'll make do with whichever map or no map system they decide to go with.

Mendel

While I actually like the idea of playing without hard knowledge of exact positioning (x,y,z or even maps), I think there's a simple compromise.  Enable/Disable these features outside the game, i.e. at the character select screen.  This accommodates play styles and serves another important purpose -- helping players navigate the world when trying to 'catch-up' with new expansions.  I know much of EQ1 by memory, but I find myself in expansions I wasn't actively playing (or at the right level) when that expansion was released.  In those cases, having a map (even the less-than-satisfactory map in EQ1) is invaluable, at times, just to know where the zone to the expansion is.

Benjola

Mendel said:

 I think there's a simple compromise.  Enable/Disable these features outside the game, i.e. at the character select screen. 

This has been tried and never works mate, nobody will handicap himself on purpose, players will always choose for convenience.
I don't know of anybody that preffered to run 10 zones further when they could get ported by a drood or wiz, or anybody that kept spaming chat begging for a port when he could use the spire portals in Luclin, or anybody waiting at a Luclin spire for port when there was PoP book portal near by, etc.

Sinist

The only way this works is if EVERYONE is forced to it. If you make it optional, there is no point. Few if any will play a game purposefully handicapped when others are not required (unless it is a server rule set). Either you require everyone, or do not bother.

Either people are interested in playing a game, or they are interested in being "entertained". There is a distinct difference in expectations.

Amathe

I would not personally find this fun. But your mileage may vary. Except you won't know if your mileage varies because you may not be allowed a gauge to see what it is. "I'm somewhere outside of Tuscon. At a Shell station. Near the cactus."

Fourplay

Sinist said:

The only way this works is if EVERYONE is forced to it. If you make it optional, there is no point. Few if any will play a game purposefully handicapped when others are not required (unless it is a server rule set). Either you require everyone, or do not bother.

Either people are interested in playing a game, or they are interested in being "entertained". There is a distinct difference in expectations.

But they can't really force people to do anything except at the start. I guarantee there will be someone who puts the maps on the web eventually and 9/10 people will go look at that online map.

It all comes down to developer choice even if people make online wikis and stuff. If it is left out by design, the choice is up to the player to immerse their self or alt/tab to google. If the devs put it in by design then the point is moot.

Either people are interested in an experience, or they are interested in an event. There is a distinct difference in expectations. Most people want it easy or lack the patience or time while a select few savor the figuring out. The question I ask the devs is

"Are you willing to make an experience and probably make less money or make an event and cash in?"

Go down the middle choice and no one gets pleased for the most part. I hope they stick to their mantra because we have plenty of event games.

Sinist

Fourplay said:

Sinist said:

The only way this works is if EVERYONE is forced to it. If you make it optional, there is no point. Few if any will play a game purposefully handicapped when others are not required (unless it is a server rule set). Either you require everyone, or do not bother.

Either people are interested in playing a game, or they are interested in being "entertained". There is a distinct difference in expectations.

But they can't really force people to do anything except at the start. I guarantee there will be someone who puts the maps on the web eventually and 9/10 people will go look at that online map.

Doesn't matter if it is on the Web. You just don't cater to the system in game. That means no loc system for people to work with. Sure, someone will develop some means to find a relative evaluation of a zone, but let them.. don't cater to it.

Fourplay said:

It all comes down to developer choice even if people make online wikis and stuff. If it is left out by design, the choice is up to the player to immerse their self or alt/tab to google. If the devs put it in by design then the point is moot.

The developers either cater to it, or they don't. If someone decides to cheat outside of the game to figure it out, fine... but the game is not considering them, nor catering to them. People will always find ways to get around things, the issue is not trying to stop it from happening, it is just not catering to it at all. People want to make maps, without any real help (ie no loc commands), well... more power to them. In the end, they will be doing what we all have to do anyway (ie learning the zones and the landmarks), as there will be no /location numbers to help.

Fourplay said:

Either people are interested in an experience, or they are interested in an event. There is a distinct difference in expectations. Most people want it easy or lack the patience or time while a select few savor the figuring out. The question I ask the devs is

Either one is interested in a game or they are interested in a entertainment. It really is as simple as that.

Fourplay said:

"Are you willing to make an experience and probably make less money or make an event and cash in?"

If you are catering to fad to make money, then this is the wrong game. There is much more money in catering to the fadish idiot entertainment gimmicks of mainstream than making a niche title. So, it comes down to this... Are they interested in making entertainment for fad chasing idiots? Or are they making a game? /shrug

Fourplay said:

Go down the middle choice and no one gets pleased for the most part. I hope they stick to their mantra because we have plenty of event games.

Middle choice is what mainstream does (ie cater to "everyone") and if VR is doing that, count me out (as well as all of the niche crowd).

Thing is, are they "doing that"? Maybe read the FAQ and Tenants? /shrug

Sinist

Amathe said:

I would not personally find this fun. But your mileage may vary. Except you won't know if your mileage varies because you may not be allowed a gauge to see what it is. "I'm somewhere outside of Tuscon. At a Shell station. Near the cactus."

So if you have to learn the zone by memory, through experience and exploration, that is not what you are interested in?

You would rather have it mapped out for you?

Interesting... So, no exploration game then?

renatodias

A game without map would be too weird at this day . But can definitely see other options like , a less detailed map that would serve more for orientating yourself in the world than to show all the little corners and twists on that specific map. No coordinates also , never liked them in any game.

Sinist

renatodias said:

A game without map would be too weird at this day . But can definitely see other options like , a less detailed map that would serve more for orientating yourself in the world than to show all the little corners and twists on that specific map. No coordinates also , never liked them in any game.

Weird why? Weird because we are used to having everything handed to us? Weird because we are used to having our hands held, told where to go, having all the exploration done for us, having no responsibility in the play to learn and remember where we are?

Why is it weird?

How about no maps, if people want to have a map, they can draw one on their own (outside of the game) or pull up a site where someone else did.

Similar to this... but without the location numbers. That is, someone would have to gauge how it looks and where things are and draw the maps in a relational way.

renatodias

Because the idea of exploring to me always comes associated with having a map or some orientation of sort , especially when talking about a big landscape with plenty of opportunities to get lost.
   I think the discussion would be better argued about immersion/lore than handhelding. I could definitely get behind the idea that you don't start with a map , but there would be a craft/job specialized in them, generating more trade and more usefulness of crafts.
  And about the responsibility of remembering where you are , would depend greatly of the size of the map and how detailed it is , but definitely a good point of exploring , would be sick to have great maps and your character not being the same size of the tree.

Sinist

renatodias said:

Because the idea of exploring to me always comes associated with having a map or some orientation of sort , especially when talking about a big landscape with plenty of opportunities to get lost.
   I think the discussion would be better argued about immersion/lore than handhelding. I could definitely get behind the idea that you don't start with a map , but there would be a craft/job specialized in them, generating more trade and more usefulness of crafts.
  And about the responsibility of remembering where you are , would depend greatly of the size of the map and how detailed it is , but definitely a good point of exploring , would be sick to have great maps and your character not being the same size of the tree.

Part of the "game play" is learning your way around the zones. That used to be a skill players had individually and why things like "sense heading", run speed, feign death,  invis, being non-kos to animals or the zone, etc.. (not to mention why having mobs chase you to the zone line was dangerous) was so important. With a map, a lot of that becomes useless or much less crucial.

So... are people interested in playing a game or no?

renatodias

    It could be one of the system that requires testing(dev said they have a few) to really see where it stands. For example, for the first version of beta goes without a map or any generic mechanic that simulates it and let the first few testers see how the world goes without it. It could certainly be a good experience .
    He did said he wanted a long beta to test a lot of things , i would imagine that if this or similar mechanic were to be part of the game , it could use a lot of feedback.
    

Sinist

renatodias said:

    It could be one of the system that requires testing(dev said they have a few) to really see where it stands. For example, for the first version of beta goes without a map or any generic mechanic that simulates it and let the first few testers see how the world goes without it. It could certainly be a good experience .
    He did said he wanted a long beta to test a lot of things , i would imagine that if this or similar mechanic were to be part of the game , it could use a lot of feedback.   

Well, that is what concerns me. People these days are too spoiled in games. I noticed this going back to older games after WoW and seeing all the bad habits I had developed in play.

There are a lot of people out there who either are overly conditioned to be reliant on "hand out" systems, that any response beta provides may be not realistic. That is, not a real response to the benefit of play in the game. Time will tell, but VR is going to have to really resist the mainstream attitudes both conditioned and born otherwise they will end up with yet another mainstream game that will be consumed and discarded just as all the others are.

Benjola

Like I said earlier I don't care much about maps but i would like a compas at least.
Give me compas and you can have your maps.
EQ had 'sense heading' skill which played as a compas and you had to train it to 200 in order to be precise.
I can live with that.

Sinist

Benjola said:

Like I said earlier I don't care much about maps but i would like a compas at least.
Give me compas and you can have your maps.
EQ had 'sense heading' skill which played as a compas and you had to train it to 200 in order to be precise.
I can live with that.

Sense heading is a good skill. It gives you some bearing, but does not hand you the answers so to speak. Even if a person has a map outside the game, they still have to have some landmark understanding to relate to their had map and so in the end, there is still an amount of player skill required.

This gives a benefit to players who have good memory and direction sense and for those who do not, the sense heading skill combined with numerous other class abilities and spells will give them benefit in play.

That is one thing I liked about playing a Feign Death class. You could run around the zone, exploring and mapping it in your mind with less risk than a class that had no means to escape, invis, run fast, etc... this is another layer of game play.

Amathe

Sinist said:

Amathe said:

I would not personally find this fun. But your mileage may vary. Except you won't know if your mileage varies because you may not be allowed a gauge to see what it is. "I'm somewhere outside of Tuscon. At a Shell station. Near the cactus."

So if you have to learn the zone by memory, through experience and exploration, that is not what you are interested in?

You would rather have it mapped out for you?

Interesting... So, no exploration game then?

First, you should know that in real life I can't find a muddy elephant in a snowbank. So nothing that involves mapping is fun for me in real life or in games. But I'm speaking only for myself. I know for some people they like the challenge of no map or a limited one. 

I prefer a fog of war system. Let the map start out black, and then have it show what I encounter as I travel. Also, let me make in game notes and markings on my map. "Treasure chest here," or whatever. Assuming there is a map. 

Because otherwise you are going to invest your time making a map, or memorizing one, and I am going to look one up online (as I already did once in EQ 13 years ago lol). Or alternatively, I will find someone to follow who is good at maps.  

Sinist

Amathe said:

Because otherwise you are going to invest your time making a map, or memorizing one, and I am going to look one up online (as I already did once in EQ 13 years ago lol). Or alternatively, I will find someone to follow who is good at maps.  

That is fine, look up your map online, but it won't make you all of a sudden able to find your way around easy. You will still have to learn some basic relationship in your surroundings to use it and the person who took the time to learn it will be much more skilled at getting around (ie reducing their risk some if they have to make a run to the zone line, or where is a safe area to head).

Also, having to rely on another who did learn the zone is a good reason for no maps as I described. It promotes achievement for those who did spend the time to learn the zone and become adept at traversing it (much like it was on release EQ).

Amathe

Yeah there are many, many things in mmorpgs where I prefer things to be challenging. Slow leveling. Death penalty. Naked corpse run. Bring all that on.

But on this one issue I would call a freakin cab if they'd let me. 

Fourplay

I don't mind walking everywhere when there is a unique reason to travel there. Walking back and forth playing Mr. Fed-Ex man is for the birds though.

A dynamic changing landscape could be the answer. One effected by the weather, time, people, one area is never truly the same, just a touch of difference. 

There has to be a reason to travel other than fetch or kill this. A mystery hunt, a potion to imbue sight in area one cannot see without ingesting the tonic. Then a revisit later, sight in the area is restored, but now a subterranean species preys upon travelers, the next revisit, the ground has sinkholes, and so on and so on.

If I had a map system I would want a charcoal and stamp type interface for documenting my own findings, mysteries, fawna, locations, notes, etc. I could afftect the world by leaving engravings and cave paintings for would be travelers.

Sinist

Fourplay said:

I don't mind walking everywhere when there is a unique reason to travel there. Walking back and forth playing Mr. Fed-Ex man is for the birds though.

A dynamic changing landscape could be the answer. One effected by the weather, time, people, one area is never truly the same, just a touch of difference. 

There has to be a reason to travel other than fetch or kill this. A mystery hunt, a potion to imbue sight in area one cannot see without ingesting the tonic. Then a revisit later, sight in the area is restored, but now a subterranean species preys upon travelers, the next revisit, the ground has sinkholes, and so on and so on.

If I had a map system I would want a charcoal and stamp type interface for documenting my own findings, mysteries, fawna, locations, notes, etc. I could afftect the world by leaving engravings and cave paintings for would be travelers.

In EQ, you didn't run back and forth in play. Usually, you would move throughout the world and stay at a given location for quite a while. Dungeons and zones were often a large level spread and quests were very long term based progressions, not fed ex style turn ins where you "quested" for exp, in fact... quests weren't even really used for exp all that often.

The whole fetch this, fed ex this, etc... was more of a WoW thing where they transitioned from mob killing exp to that of quest based exp. I think Pantheon is going to be more of the former rather than the latter, so the problem you mention is not likely to be an issue.

Wizardry

Once in a while i see threads that put a smile on,they make sense,this is one of those rare occasions.

I have summed the whole idea up for many years now,it is called >>>NO HAND HOLDING.I want to walk into a game world just as i would walking into the country of India for the first time,i would be lost,clueless.

On the same topic of MAPS,i do not want to see any AA type nonsense where players are given free XP for some BS discovery ,when we all know there is no disco in a questing game that leads you around by the hand.So  again i guess i just reiterated ...NO hand holding.I don't even want to see map markers telling me where to go to do a quest, i want player>NPC interaction,LISTEN,play attention,read,learn your surroundings,that would all be a nice start.

Fourplay

Wizardry said:

Once in a while i see threads that put a smile on,they make sense,this is one of those rare occasions.

I have summed the whole idea up for many years now,it is called >>>NO HAND HOLDING.I want to walk into a game world just as i would walking into the country of India for the first time,i would be lost,clueless.

On the same topic of MAPS,i do not want to see any AA type nonsense where players are given free XP for some BS discovery ,when we all know there is no disco in a questing game that leads you around by the hand.So  again i guess i just reiterated ...NO hand holding.I don't even want to see map markers telling me where to go to do a quest, i want player>NPC interaction,LISTEN,play attention,read,learn your surroundings,that would all be a nice start.

The nonsense you speak of is how I feel about vistas in rpgs. I feel little accomplishment from a splendid view and some xp even though the view is nice. Where is the context? Ever play FFX, and learn the Al Bhed language? Why couldn't my vistas involve acquiring codex to learn a language of different species which would then lend more depth to discovering new people/cities. A diagram or tome with mysteries to unlock new technologies.

Why stop there? Perhaps I could gain new ways to traverse different landscapes and level those up in different avenues.

No discovery, no story variables, if everything is in plain site, it might as well be a movie.

Konfess

This post is all about adding an exploitable feature to the game.  Congratulations if you can traverse a game world without a map.  Some people can't.  This post is about adding a feature to give one group an advantage over another group.  There is no need to force no maps on everyone.  Those who want no map should be allowed to close the map window.  If others play style or requirements interfere with a player's immersion, that is the player's problem to live with.

Nothing prevents a player from playing without a map.  But that is not what this post is about.  This post is about taking advantage over those who need a map, and exploiting that against them.

Konfess

Sinist said:

The only way this works is if EVERYONE is forced to it. If you make it optional, there is no point. Few if any will play a game purposefully handicapped when others are not required (unless it is a server rule set). Either you require everyone, or do not bother.

Either people are interested in playing a game, or they are interested in being "entertained". There is a distinct difference in expectations.

"EVERYONE is forced to it."  This post is about griefing other players.  This is about taking advantage of players that are unable to maneuver a game world without a map.  They may be impaired either physically or mentally.  This can be an option for those who want it.  But this should not be forced on anyone.