Appearance Tabs....

Curt2013

So there's a more then healthy debate on this subject over at the Pantheon site. I cannot input my opinion there since I have yet to donate any funds at the moment. So I was wondering what the opinion is here on the subject.

Should there be appearance tabs in Pantheon Realm of the Fallen within reason?

I believe there should be within limit. If for example I wanted to use a helmet graphic I received from dungeon loot at lvl 25 which would be class restricted btw, I see no problem with this at all. It creates diversity within the community for one and allows some freedom to appear to ones liking within reason. I'm 100 % against seeing toons running around in clown outfits, those shouldn't even be in game imo. Most mmo's do this now, and some do it well, while others do not. I personally would like the way Rift does it minus some of the crazy outfits they have available. If they restricted it do class / quest / dungeon loot, gear it would probably be a good system.

Some of the folks over at the Pantheon site really seem to have it in for this feature. My question is why? 
The biggest gripe I see about having it is toons running around in tuxedo's or santa clause outfits, and this breaks immersion. We'll no one over there wants that feature either that i was able to read, but for some reason this is the excuse used repeatedly by some folks who are against it, it's actually bizarre. It's like they don't see the several posts by different peeps stating that they don't want that either but it still gets mentioned.  Another reason for not having it is it breaks immersion, no further detail. But killing undead skeletons or insert monster doesn't? After all it is a fantasy game.

There's been so many times I've had an upgrade that was hideous imo and was extremely thankful the devs chose wisely to add appearance tabs. I respect all the hard work that graphic artist put into the models and textures but sometimes we just look at things different. 

On a side note glad I have waited to make a pledge / donation to protf, it seems a moderator for the official site takes it upon herself to insult in a condescending way at times when disagreed with. It seems to me moderators are there to moderate not input there opinion in a more then biased way. A new company should probably want to show a little more professionalism of there employees, just in opinion.

Still looking forward to this game with a watch and see approach.

kjempff

It is not as much about breaking immersion, because that can be controlled by the developer by just not releasing those costumes. It is about visually recognizing status, it is about being inspired to greatness by other players looks, it is about the feeling of accomplishment.

Georgeson (former EqNext) said it something like this in an interview "You see another player. You know he is good and he knows he is good but you don't talk about it" (I don't have the exact quote). It is not really bragging or showing of that is the point, neither is it a ranking or class system, it is a way to show what your character is about and feel proud of what you achieved so far.

This is why I prefer games without apperance items, but items looking the way they do. Dyes are on the edge, but maybe some adornments that does not hide the original piece would be acceptable. That is not saying there can not be gear for roleplay or social occasions (diplomacy?), but they should not be covering other gear .. aka you cannot both have a plate armor bonuses and be in "citicen clothings".

SlyLoK

I am of the thought that if the art is good enough then appearance items arent needed. I think ESO has some of the best appearance items around but at the same time they have really nice armors too. I wear a costume off and on but also like to see my character grow in terms of how my gear goes from rags to riches. Appearance items kinda change that.. 

I kinda liked how LoTRO did it in that the items were basically casual clothing , musician clothes etc. As long as you couldnt have those appear during combat then I would be ok with that system.

Scumm

I’m for it and here’s a few reasons why:

•  I’m a wizard who just got a Stein of Moggok.  I feel ridiculous running into battle carrying a cup, but the developers have given it the best stats.  I would rather be a wizard who uses a staff, but for now, it’s the stein. 
• I’m a bard who’s found a new bronze breastplate.  I’m also wearing banded legs, leather arms, and a leather hat.  I hate the way the mis-matched armor looks but don’t want to be gimped by wearing all leather armor.  I also hate the way my leather hat looks, but can’t take it off because it ‘protects’ my head.  
• I’m a Ranger who has just looted a big furry cape in a raid after defeating a dragon.  The stats are incredible but I think it looks incredibly stupid and doesn’t match my character’s personality.  Personally I prefer the level 1 plain black leather cloak with a hood that covers my face. 

My point here is that some items have objectively better stats, but may or may not better represent your character.  The developers could just have easily put the best stats on a wizard staff as they could have on the Stein of Moggok.  Why are we penalizing people for wanting to be creative with their character design?

I understand the opinion that people like to see a character’s history at a glance by seeing what they’ve earned.  But that can be solved by a quick /inspect.  And if not, perhaps the player doesn’t want to flaunt their achievements.  Why are we forcing players to display their plumage? 

As for the tuxedos and santa claus suits… it sounds like no one even wants these in the game at all.  Why are we debating whether people should be able to wear them when we should be debating about them being in the game in the first place?

On a less extreme note, I do appreciate that these types of skins break immersion.  It also might break immersion to have your tank wearing a full set of cloth armor.  This seems like a matter of individual opinion and I don’t really have an answer to that.  If my tank was wearing a loin cloth and using a club, I wouldn’t mind as long as they were thoughtful about how they built their character’s persona. 

iatesand

FFXIV has the appearance items, and people who want to show off how bad ass their relic is, do. People who have collected a full set of some armor and like the look it gives their character can also do that.  EQ2 also has a similar system. But SE went to far and introduced non game related clothing items.

Allowing a player to chose what his outward appearance looks like as long as its stuff he can normally use is just not a big deal. It starts to be bad when they release specifically crafted appearance slot items. Mages in plate, tanks in a duck suit, DPS in a spedo... whatever.

I would like to see appearance items allowed from normal gear that you can use. You like the look of this bow? Use it for appearance , you like the armor set you collected, use it for appearance you want to where a cat costume and swing a fish for a weapon? lets just not go there.

Scumm

On a separate note, I can't say I agree with your opinion of Kilsin.  Yes he's the moderator, but he's also a player and fan.  He's entitled to opinions just like the rest of us.  I haven't seen anything beyond polite and diplomatic discussion from him here or on the official forums.  If you were offended by something he said, I'm sure it was unintentional.  Maybe if you messaged him directly with specific complaints the two of you could clear the air?

kjempff

Scumm said:

..

I can understand your point somewhat, but the examples you give are from eq's worst cases, and there is no reason a new game should repeat the same mistakes. Also I expect a modern game to provide much greater numbers of gear variations with similar stats, so the choice would not have to be so limited.

I see the problem with having to wear items with better stats over some other piece you would rather wear for apperance sakes, but I still value being able to visually see and display your character over that. /inspect is certainly not a solution, as that would go completely against my reasons for wanting the look to show who you are (and all that implies).

Maybe there is some middle ground, where you can't completely alter the looks of an item, but still put some personality in its looks.

Kayo83

Bah I had to get out of that conversation. Its mostly just subjective rhetoric from those against it. Pro side points out the actual benefits such a feature could bring for both for content consumption, crafting, gold sinks, end game activity, incentive to go back to older content and they cry about presenting "opinion as fact." Meanwhile they try and paint some negative picture of what would happen as if no one will ever see a certain epic helmet because everyone will replace its model with a paint bucket if they can still get the stats from it. Of course that just nonsense as it NEVER happened to any significant degree in any game with such a feature that ive played. Oh and the "feeling" and "value" of the epics would be ruined ... which makes about as much sense as it sounds. Mostly because again its rhetorical gibberish but also because its just false. An epic with crazy awesome stats will always be an epic with crazy awesome stats that everyone wants to find and put on, most will even keep the epic model on display

What really gets me though is theyre the ones with the gall to believe their personal "feelings" over the look of a piece of gear should somehow supercede those of the individual player that has to wear it throughout most of his time in the game. Mind you, this is something that has absolutely no effect on the game which isnt even noticeable unless they purposefully inspect a player.

iatesand

Xodic said:

Good god, leave the playing dress up out of my games please. Let them focus on the actual game for a change.

You need a Chihuahua and a PetSmart gift card, not another MMO.

Did you actuality read anything anybody wrote? Or just hit replay and smacked your face on the keyboard a few times?

Curt2013

kjempff said:

It is not as much about breaking immersion, because that can be controlled by the developer by just not releasing those costumes. It is about visually recognizing status, it is about being inspired to greatness by other players looks, it is about the feeling of accomplishment.

Georgeson (former EqNext) said it something like this in an interview "You see another player. You know he is good and he knows he is good but you don't talk about it" (I don't have the exact quote). It is not really bragging or showing of that is the point, neither is it a ranking or class system, it is a way to show what your character is about and feel proud of what you achieved so far.

This is why I prefer games without apperance items, but items looking the way they do. Dyes are on the edge, but maybe some adornments that does not hide the original piece would be acceptable. That is not saying there can not be gear for roleplay or social occasions (diplomacy?), but they should not be covering other gear .. aka you cannot both have a plate armor bonuses and be in "citicen clothings".

I understand your point about certain gear can show your status of what you have invested with your toon. That's great and all but there's also nothing wrong with it being optional. For example I didn't care for the pota armor in Vanguard, thought it looked bad, if I'm going to invest that much time into bis I want it to at least look cool to me.

Other ways of status is by having a good reputation or just general knowledge, I don't need some gaudy gear to show what I've accomplished, and I certainly don't need the approval of other players to make me feel good by wearing such gear. 

And as I stated in the first post it should be class specific nothing crazy.

iatesand

kjempff said:

words here

I can't disagree with you more. 

If I saw somebody with a cool piece of gear the first thing I do is inspect them, what is that? I like the way it looks.

Back in the EQ days if you played a cleric you got a really cool set of gold armor in your 30's This armor wasn't actually very good, on the contrary it kinda sucked.  But before they had color dyes it was a great look. Later you got the Purple plate.. and every cleric in the guild started looking the same.

Players like to craft the look of their personas and if they like the look of a full set of lvl 30 gear over a full set of lvl 50  gear why not??  No matter what you try and do there will always be a BIS, and BIS leads to characters of the same level looking the same. 

Let a player decide for him or herself what they want to craft the look their persona in game. If they gets a really bad ass item and wants to show it off, they will. Open up the diversity of options rather then restrict them.

Curt2013

Kayo83 said:

Bah I had to get out of that conversation. Its mostly just subjective rhetoric from those against it. Pro side points out the actual benefits such a feature could bring for both for content consumption, crafting, gold sinks, end game activity, incentive to go back to older content and they cry about presenting "opinion as fact." Meanwhile they try and paint some negative picture of what would happen as if no one will ever see a certain epic helmet because everyone will replace its model with a paint bucket if they can still get the stats from it. Of course that just nonsense as it NEVER happened to any significant degree in any game with such a feature that ive played. Oh and the "feeling" and "value" of the epics would be ruined ... which makes about as much sense as it sounds. Mostly because again its rhetorical gibberish but also because its just false. An epic with crazy awesome stats will always be an epic with crazy awesome stats that everyone wants to find and put on, most will even keep the epic model on display

What really gets me though is theyre the ones with the gall to believe their personal "feelings" over the look of a piece of gear should somehow supercede those of the individual player that has to wear it throughout most of his time in the game. Mind you, this is something that has absolutely no effect on the game which isnt even noticeable unless they purposefully inspect a player.

That's exactly what I was seeing, it was crazy talk as if no one bothered to read differing posts and just applied same logic opinion over and over. One gal or guy wrote out a very thoughtful polite argument which made very logical points both for and against, and she / he still got flamed a little.

But, it even stressed the negatives which he / she didn't like and it still was constantly brought up as point made for the argument.

Theocritus

Is this game even close to releasing or should I check back in a few years?

waynejr2

kjempff said:

It is not as much about breaking immersion, because that can be controlled by the developer by just not releasing those costumes. It is about visually recognizing status, it is about being inspired to greatness by other players looks, it is about the feeling of accomplishment.

Georgeson (former EqNext) said it something like this in an interview "You see another player. You know he is good and he knows he is good but you don't talk about it" (I don't have the exact quote). It is not really bragging or showing of that is the point, neither is it a ranking or class system, it is a way to show what your character is about and feel proud of what you achieved so far.

This is why I prefer games without apperance items, but items looking the way they do. Dyes are on the edge, but maybe some adornments that does not hide the original piece would be acceptable. That is not saying there can not be gear for roleplay or social occasions (diplomacy?), but they should not be covering other gear .. aka you cannot both have a plate armor bonuses and be in "citicen clothings".

Items looking the way the do... Well, there is another way to look at it.  IMO, you are many people are not gaming but meta-gaming.  They look on the battlefield and see people and the tough guys that they are they go after the weak person.

From my point of view, it is about creating fewer items to do more work.   Suppose I like the look of my blue bathrobe but it is onlly +2 strength however I do like that +20 strength item.  So the devs have options of creating blue bathrobes of +2 and + 10 strength or allowing appearance tabs. 

If you have 10 different items based on looks and you 10 different stats options, you have to make (10 * 10) -10 items to cover the combinations.  With AT, you only need those 10 items to do all that.  Now imagine the numbers scaling with 100 or 1000 different items.  It is crazy.  Allow AT is reasonable....

Unless you want to meta-game.  Which I believe this 'complaint' is usually about.

If you are ok with the game having both +2 and +10 strength bathrobes, you should be ok with a blue bathrobe in the AT with +10 strength item in the main tab.  I believe that holds true, unless you are meta-gaming.

Amathe

Regardless of what side of the issue you are on, it really comes down to who they have designing the armors. 

If Pantheon has good artists (which I expect it will), and if all of the armors look at least presentable, then people won't be too upset if they can't change skins. 

But if the uber armor looks godly while everyone else looks silly or like some impoverished street urchin, then that will not be popular to say the least. 

Just because one player succeeds does not mean everyone else should wear ribbons of shame. Let achievements be reflected in the gear, but don't punish everyone else with ugly clothes. 

Thunder073

Absolutely no!! This is not the game for dress up. It shouldn't matter what you loot with what stats, if you wear it, that's what it looks like, period. You shouldn't be able to magically alter an item.

On a side note unrelated to Pantheon because it has been said that it will NOT have a cash shop or goofy outfits... who the hell are these people that keep buying ridiculously stupid outfits in cash shops?? Why would anyone want to run around in a cat, clown, commando, playboy, etc outfit? It looks retarded... and people PAY money to look like that, laughable... Goes without saying I avoid any game that lets you do this crap. Kills immersion.

Aenra

I will paste my reply to Aradune here, a reply he has yet to acknowledge

He mentions that he'd prefer having no appearance tabs, because that could "de-motivate" people from wanting the best/raid gear out there. This is my response, awaiting an answer still. Long wall of text warning:

@Aradune ; assuming you read this..You mentioned you are strongly against appearance slots being effective when in combat. I see a preference stated, but without any explanation. So.. why?

i) What's the point of devoting man-hours to appearance slots if they go "off" the instant we enter combat mode?... (there is none. Combat is not only 40 people all set, combat can be that while i RP, on my own, i aggroed a mob. You are taking about a design implementation for nothing. Doesn't sound very practical to me when put like this, let alone rational).

ii) How exactly am i to comprehend (in reasonable, mature-oriented terms) a reply of the sort "i want exotic gear to show so as to motivate people"? Brad, we are not new to MMORPGs. And we are not any younger either. We already KNOW what better gear means, where, how and whether we want to go after it or not (answer, we do, this is a themepark, so your argument is prety much null anyway, this is the whole point. Get better gear..my having a choice about my look does not invalidate my wanting better gear..nor could it. Ever). So that's off.

iii) Your "exotic" gear, so that we can sit around in a town square for others to gawk at us right?, will by default look "shinier"/"better". Nothing threatened, argument-wise, by appearance slots. You'll be the ones to design everything, so entirely up to you to maintain that distinction to its fullest. As such, this is not an argument against appearance slots either.

iv) Occasionally, glowy staves and flashy dresses lit up like xmas trees going on and off are hardly everyone's choice. Appearance slots do not signify "oomph" factor or "extra cool" (so your "exotics" are safe). Appearance slots are about taste. Style. And the odd need to set an image of your avatar as you yourself imagine it. Not about overriding the hierarchy the game has set. Just about having the option, because it is impossible for everyone to like this one set you want us to like. So this too i personally fail to see as a valid argument.

v) In a game with /inspect and online community pages, in a game where there can be a toggle controlling whether "i can only see people's worn gear", why are you against personal choice?

Do not confuse appearance slots with "fancy"/"fancier" please. If you are honestly after cheese to attract the hamsters, make only the exotic gear look "amazing".

Wanting a fixed visual need not entail looking "better" than 'x' person who raids all day. I can guarantee you it is simply about one player having found something he likes, and wishing to keep it. Which cannot be done (see: themepark and forced gear upgrades). Hence appearance slots. It's really so simple.

Benefits:

- A tertiary activity (you can't kill-kill-kill all day long, so anything 'extra' that still motivates you to remain online is a plus. Especially considering Patnheon's downtime mechanics

- A mechanic (wardrobe-ish..) that can have an exponential effect on everything:

i) Mob drops. Nothing fancy from random mob drops, but mob drops. One more incentive to "go back" to previous areas and/or (important) areas whose pacing has ..fallen.. a bit short.

ii) Crafting. Not now, budget. But with the system in place? A worthwhile future endeavour. Alchies make and sell dyes. Tailors make and sell cosmetic armour. Thematically appropriate, yes. Armorsmiths/weaponsmiths make and sell cosmetic weapons and armour. And so on.

iii) Economy. Some of this will be sold, some of it bought. An extra boost. Let's say Brad manages the impossible (no one has thus far) and the economy is PERFECT. No need for boost, ever. How about recycling? The money changing hands? The new players making a profit to compete with 5yr old players?

iv) Further incentive for everyone into RPing. It's a major atraction factor and i'm sure you know it. No, not the sole one, but it is a major one.

v) V-A-R-I-E-T-Y. The salt and pepper of life man. Variety. Work work work, and it leads into something. Detail detail detail and it makes the eterogenous homogenous. Personality. Differentiation, expression. People are usually about these things, and MMOs are just that. People. Otherwise, might as well stick to MOBAs. Kill kill kill (nothing extra/tertiary to do), so cu tomorrow.

So considering there are NO true downsides to this, are we really discarding all the above because what? Someone doesn't care for appearance slots? Why don't use them then

kjempff

When given two choices, deny them both and pick a third, just to spite whoever think there can be only two.
Break out from the narrow eq or vg perspectives, take a broader perspective than specific game mechanics.. At least I hope for Pantheons sake that they are not making a copy of eq or vg, but building on their virtues and not the exact mechanics.
So for or against appearance items.. maybe there can be more answers than just true or false, and the same with solutions.

Aeolyn

I would think that the only way an item could be so bizarre, ie. clown suits, bikinis, etc., as to break the immersion in a game would be if the developer/s allowed them to be made and implemented in inappropriate ways. 

As for appearance tabs, as long as the developer has enough pride in the game to keep all such items like the armour, costumes, weaponry, etc. within the parameters of the game and not just a free for all with Hello Kitty outfits, bikinis, skateboards etc:

(think medieval, sci-fi, modern, fantasy etc. and even further breakdown into categories of historical/fantasy-dragons-elves medieval, star wars/dr.who sci-fi, etc or perhaps steampunk that tends to incorporate history/fantasy/sci-fi/modern within its own strict guidelines of what qualifies)

then there should be no question that allowing some way for players to personalize their character's looks is nothing but a win win.  Imo it certainly gives an avenue for the developers to provide new content that helps to keep players interested in playing after they've "won" the game by beating the latest expansion's boss on god mode and it certainly helps to give a way for newer players to work their way up the very costly ladder of gear progression.  Plus I've never met a crafter that didn't like to be able to make new cool looking items as the old ones get timeworn.

Kilrain

I do not like appearance tabs or slots in any form. I like seeing what a character looks like and knowing what they've accomplished based on their gear. I remember trying for so long to get my Ivy Etched Armor in EQ and when they came out with dye people could just dye their chain armor and it looked identical. It was a huge disappointment for me.

Also immersion. Whenever I look at a person wearing something silly, like a clown suit, I would expect them to be taken down like a clown. I never could stand seeing silly costume outfits that looked like a joke yet because they were in appearance only the player could still tank like a god. 

Hrimnir

This is one of those issues I'm conflicted about, I give you my avatar picture as an example.  I was a paladin with blue metal arms, blue metal pants, a leather chest slot, and a gold helm.  I essentially looked ridiculous.

However, I get why they are so against it, as one of the coolest things in EQ was seeing someone run by and knowing exactly what they were wearing by the looks.  Probably the most easily recognizable example of this was the golden efreeti boots.  Seeing a druid run by in a bunch of green and brown with super shiny golden boots was cool, and was somewhat of a status symbol.

I really would be ok with either method.  I liked in Rift being able to equip my hard earned super high end gear from Hammerknell (the set on the right: http://tinyurl.com/j8399n6), even far later into the game, because it was cool and I worked really hard for it.

I see both sides, and its one of those few things that ill be "ok" with either decision.

Aenra

Rather than presenting some arguments in regard to that, let me ask you something..

- Have you ever considered being SO used to 'a' way of looking things, because that's what they taught you, they all did the same, one game after the other, that you're incapable of even considering the possibility of an alternative?

It's not just about the LOOK-AT-ME fixation.. take achievements in more recent mmorpgs (which i detest as a mechanic personally, but as an example they serve perfectly). You WANT to know who's done what, have they more, less than you? You will do a comparing. Why?

Because they trained you to think in penis/ego terms. You see someone you've never met, on a game that is all about meeting people.. and what's the first thing you want to know? If his virtual genitals are larger, smaller or on a-par with yours.

You ever sat down to consider just what this entails?

And again, especially when you WILL have an /inspect option. Nothing will be hidden from you. And that's at the least. You can easily have an /opt out option for appearances on top of that. Except.. neither satisfies the ego bloating need, does it?

And now that we got to that point at last.. need we really stroke (pun intended) said needs just as much in Pantheon as in ..other.. games? Pantheon's not targetting 15yr olds.. one'd have thought most of its future clients would be past all that.

Hrimnir

Aenra said:

Rather than presenting some arguments in regard to that, let me ask you something..

- Have you ever considered being SO used to 'a' way of looking things, because that's what they taught you, they all did the same, one game after the other, that you're incapable of even considering the possibility of an alternative?

It's not just about the LOOK-AT-ME fixation.. take achievements in more recent mmorpgs (which i detest as a mechanic personally, but as an example they serve perfectly). You WANT to know who's done what, have they more, less than you? You will do a comparing. Why?

Because they trained you to think in penis/ego terms. You see someone you've never met, on a game that is all about meeting people.. and what's the first thing you want to know? If his virtual genitals are larger, smaller or on a-par with yours.

You ever sat down to consider just what this entails?

And again, especially when you WILL have an /inspect option. Nothing will be hidden from you. And that's at the least. You can easily have an /opt out option for appearances on top of that. Except.. neither satisfies the ego bloating need, does it?

And now that we got to that point at last.. need we really stroke (pun intended) said needs just as much in Pantheon as in ..other.. games? Pantheon's not targetting 15yr olds.. one'd have thought most of its future clients would be past all that.

You're putting the chicken before the Egg.

All of this is part of human nature.  We have evolutionary and biological reasons for doing and desiring many of those things.  Nobody has been "trained" into this, it just is.

kjempff

Aenra said:

Rather than presenting some arguments in regard to that, let me ask you something..

It's not just about the LOOK-AT-ME fixation.. take achievements in more recent mmorpgs (which i detest as a mechanic personally, but as an example they serve perfectly). You WANT to know who's done what, have they more, less than you? You will do a comparing. Why?

Because they trained you to think in penis/ego terms. You see someone you've never met, on a game that is all about meeting people.. and what's the first thing you want to know? If his virtual genitals are larger, smaller or on a-par with yours.

And again, especially when you WILL have an /inspect option. Nothing will be hidden from you. And that's at the least. You can easily have an /opt out option for appearances on top of that. Except.. neither satisfies the ego bloating need, does it?

First, the LOOK-AT-ME fixation is exactly what appearance slots is about, so I don't get this argument.
Also you are looking at it wrong, it has nothing to do with e-peen measurement. It is about inspiration by visuals for the onlooker and it is about feeling accomplished by the wearer. When you fake looks (as in appearance slots) you give false impressions, and then looks loose its value. I really don't see that wearing something you worked is ego bloating, maybe that is more the viewers ego that is producing this impression.

Do you think you are worthless because you see someone in insane-armor-of-awesomeness and you are in stitched leather, no you get inspired .. You get reminded that your achievements from ragged cloth to stitched leather meant something, and knowing that you too can be in insane-armor-of-awesomeness one day. Unless you are one of those who think people with an expensive car and a nice house are just doing it to show off and feel superior to others.

And lastly, no /inspect has nothing to do with the appearance debate because /inspect is not visual.. or at least it can't be used as an argument against those who are not for appearance slots.

Anyways, there are for and against appearance slots but I just wanted to say the arguments against is not about ego and e-peen measurements or something silly like that.

Amathe

It has been said that roughly 10% of the game will be solo, 80% will be grouping and 10% raiding. "[T]he majority of content is being designed for grouping, with the remainder for soloing or raiding." Pantheon FAQ. 

If this is true, then why are we back to being expected to stand around and oooh and ahhh over raiders? Why is that supposed to be our "inspiration?" 

If I proposed that the best armor be awarded to solo players, people would jump on that and say "this is a grouping game." 

Well is it?

Or is it a raid e-peenism game?

If there are already huge fights just to be sure non-raiders will nothave good looking armors (which is the silliest thing I have ever seen), then it doesn't seem like a grouping oriented game. 

Sinist

Didn't we already have a very extensive discussion on this issue in a previous thread?

Here it is:http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/441777/how-much-do-you-care-about-your-character-looks#latestttp://

My position on it is that it works against game play. How you look is a goal of play and should be a continued requirement of progression to achieve. It should be a carrot, not a convenience.