Open World Full loot vs Themepark Games

Ikisis

In OW Full Loot PvP game's you farm to build gear bags depending on rank of the gear it can take up to 6 or so hours to build a few nice quality bags (which yes you run the risk of losing via pvp combat & also have the chance to gain gear also)

In a Game like WoW your gear heavily matters, You raid for it for weeks, months, years to gain the full set.
But you act as if that gear isnt lost. In a game like Darkfall me losing a gear bag or items relies on my ability to fight, my player skill determines my gear loss.
But in a theme park you have no choice nothing you can do, your gear is ganked from your character by the Development team lets call it Expansion Pack Gank your months and years dumped into that raid gear is now made irrelevant (And you paid for it to be made irrelevant)
and you start the rat race all over again for it to happen yet again just a few years later.

Now tell me whats the difference between Full loot Open World PvP, And Themepark DvP Expansion pack gank Full loss?

Zen00

I don't think I'll ever play a game where you can lose the gear that you ground for who knows how long to get. The only way I approve of "losing gear" is by a new level cap making previous gear obsolete, even that is rather annoying without some way to "legacy" your previous cap gear into the new cap.

SEANMCAD

there is a LOT wrong with this comparision,

Namely it leaves people thinking 'open world' means free for all pvp which it does not.

Octagon7711

The Devs set the quality of loot in every game.  They also set the effectiveness of your character and your abilities are controlled by the parameters they set.  The illusion that gear or talent matters is just that an illusion which someone else ultimately controls.  No matter the game you're in someone else's house playing someone else's vision of a game.

SEANMCAD

Octagon7711 said:

The Devs set the quality of loot in every game.  They also set the effectiveness of your character and your abilities are controlled by the parameters they set.  The illusion that gear or talent matters is just that an illusion which someone else ultimately controls.  No matter the game you're in someone else's house playing someone else's vision of a game.

yeah the developers of Darkfall are masterminds of creating balance illusion

cerulean2012

Ikisis said:

In OW Full Loot PvP game's you farm to build gear bags depending on rank of the gear it can take up to 6 or so hours to build a few nice quality bags (which yes you run the risk of losing via pvp combat & also have the chance to gain gear also)

In a Game like WoW your gear heavily matters, You raid for it for weeks, months, years to gain the full set.
But you act as if that gear isnt lost. In a game like Darkfall me losing a gear bag or items relies on my ability to fight, my player skill determines my gear loss.
But in a theme park you have no choice nothing you can do, your gear is ganked from your character by the Development team lets call it Expansion Pack Gank your months and years dumped into that raid gear is now made irrelevant (And you paid for it to be made irrelevant)
and you start the rat race all over again for it to happen yet again just a few years later.

Now tell me whats the difference between Full loot Open World PvP, And Themepark DvP Expansion pack gank Full loss?

The difference is in your open world full loot you can lose the gear you worked so hard to get.

In the Themepark you do not lose gear the expansions creates a new level of gear to work for.

So it is lose everything to lose nothing and work for new.

AngryElf

Real dumb question.
 Start from scratch or continue where you left off.  This is the difference. 

Ikisis

AngryElf said:

Real dumb question.
 Start from scratch or continue where you left off.  This is the difference. 

In both scenarios you are left with nothing, and have to regrind.

Theme park: the gear you spent up to a year to get is useless

Full Loot: The gear you spent a hour farming is lost (If your player skill is lesser then your opponent)


Full loot = Risk Vs Reward where player skill matters

Theme Park = Money & Time sink Rinse, pay, and repeat

rodarin

The idea that gear and loot is what counts as 'end game goals' are why the whole MMO genre is dead. But you can definitely blame WoW for that one.

AngryElf

Ikisis said:

AngryElf said:

Real dumb question.
 Start from scratch or continue where you left off.  This is the difference. 

In both scenarios you are left with nothing, and have to regrind.

Theme park: the gear you spent up to a year to get is useless

Full Loot: The gear you spent a hour farming is lost (If your player skill is lesser then your opponent)


Full loot = Risk Vs Reward where player skill matters

Theme Park = Money & Time sink Rinse, pay, and repeat

Wrong.  Full loot will set you back behind most players where an expansion release starts everyone on the same page.  

Ikisis

AngryElf said:

Ikisis said:

AngryElf said:

Real dumb question.
 Start from scratch or continue where you left off.  This is the difference. 

In both scenarios you are left with nothing, and have to regrind.

Theme park: the gear you spent up to a year to get is useless

Full Loot: The gear you spent a hour farming is lost (If your player skill is lesser then your opponent)


Full loot = Risk Vs Reward where player skill matters

Theme Park = Money & Time sink Rinse, pay, and repeat

Wrong.  Full loot will set you back behind most players where an expansion release starts everyone on the same page.  

So you prefer a wipe rather then being competitive?

MarioLemieux

rodarin said:

The idea that gear and loot is what counts as 'end game goals' are why the whole MMO genre is dead. But you can definitely blame WoW for that one.

yeah. I respect people who like to do very long and intensive grinds to get gear, that's their taste. But the OP does bring some point of discussion. It is true that you technically end up losing your gear in games like WoW, as at some point you have start grinding again for that next set of gear, or else you are gonna be left behind. In full loot games where gear doesn't matter as much, normally the grind is way smaller to get high end gear, and short to get decent viable gear (because it's definitely more viable than in games like WoW to use cheaper gear). Of course it sucks to lose your gear, but it really isn't that much of a deal if it's easy to acquire, and that the end game goals like rodarin said isn't gear based. AND it's so much fun to be on the winning side and win gear.

I think of gear in a mmo just like cash in a game like Monopoly or resources in a game like Settlers of Catan. It comes and go, and is a tool which helps you reaching end game goals, not other way around.

AngryElf

Ikisis said:

AngryElf said:

Ikisis said:

AngryElf said:

Real dumb question.
 Start from scratch or continue where you left off.  This is the difference. 

In both scenarios you are left with nothing, and have to regrind.

Theme park: the gear you spent up to a year to get is useless

Full Loot: The gear you spent a hour farming is lost (If your player skill is lesser then your opponent)


Full loot = Risk Vs Reward where player skill matters

Theme Park = Money & Time sink Rinse, pay, and repeat

Wrong.  Full loot will set you back behind most players where an expansion release starts everyone on the same page.  

So you prefer a wipe rather then being competitive?

No, just stating the difference.  No expansion I'm aware of is a full wipe.  What you've earned stays on your character.  Hard to be competitive with no gear. 

MarioLemieux

AngryElf said:

No, just stating the difference.  No expansion I'm aware of is a full wipe.  What you've earned stays on your character.  Hard to be competitive with no gear. 

You keep your gear, but his point is that it becomes obsolete and you have to go and grind again to get a new one, and if you don't, the one who did decide to do the grind will end having huge advantages over you. There is no such things as risk vs reward in these types of game. It's more of a work vs reward. The more you play, the stronger your character get. While in full loot games, the more risks you take, the better your character is geared and it gives you an advantage, although not an insurmountable one like in the other system.

Again, I respect people who like playing these games, but I do believe that if some of them would think about it more, they would realize that it's not such a big deal losing gear when A ) it's much easier to acquire, B ) you don't require the lastest gear to be viable, and C ) you can be one of those who gain more gear than you lose. And that might actually make some of you go past thru that whole full loot thing, and realize the real potential of the game.

And then maybe it would open the eyes of some of you that don't stop talking about how all the games are the same, but always end up choosing to give your money to the companies who make games that are similar to the previous ones you play, instead of trying something different and more challenging.

Mikeha

I am a gear head that loves working my butt off for good gear so Full Loot is a no for me.


Games that have full loot have lame gear that does not matter.  I like where I see that person in that rare Dragon Set that he worked his butt off for.  

Lineage 2 had the best system to where only Chaotic characters would drop gear. 

If you want your game to fail hard just make it Full Loot. 

MarioLemieux

Recore said:

I am a gear head that loves working my butt off for good gear so Full Loot is a no for me.


Games that have full loot have lame gear that does not matter.  I like where I see that person in that rare Dragon Set that he worked his butt off for.  

Lineage 2 had the best system to where only Chaotic characters would drop gear. 

If you want your game to fail hard just make it Full Loot. 

Or just make a WoW clone. You know, just like 99% of the MMOs that came out since WoW, all the same.

Theocritus

Its funny but I dont like either to be honest...Both are too far from what I would like....I dont get the point of getting stuff in a game then getting raped by high level players and having nothing...Thats a terrible mechanic....On the other hand, themeparks you usually dont do much of anything and are rewarded.....The best gameplay lies somewhere between.

Horusra

Ikisis said:

AngryElf said:

Real dumb question.
 Start from scratch or continue where you left off.  This is the difference. 

In both scenarios you are left with nothing, and have to regrind.

Theme park: the gear you spent up to a year to get is useless

Full Loot: The gear you spent a hour farming is lost (If your player skill is lesser then your opponent)


Full loot = Risk Vs Reward where player skill matters

Theme Park = Money & Time sink Rinse, pay, and repeat

you create the illusion that player skill is what is important in Full Loot games when the gank is more important.  People in Eve are not targeting people of possible equal skill.  They hunt easy prey.  Same in most open world PvP games.  Losing your items to a planned expansion or losing your items to someone stealth killing you when you have no chance.....

GrumpyHobbit

Never really liked the way Full loot OW FFA PvP games work. 

The only tactic that is commonly stated in these types of games is to make many back-up versions of gear so that when it gets taken you just replace it. 

It just makes it a trivial and annoying aspect of the game. What is the point of stealing gear from another player if they can simply replace it right away.

You never wear good gear for fear of losing it. 

You never fight competitive fights so fights just turn into either high level/skill players killing noobs or gank squads picking off strays. 

Sorry but if I want PvP I play a PvP game, MMO's just never get it right. 

The ONLY time full loot FFA OW PvP has worked in my opinion was on a fully enforced RP private server in Neverwinter Nights with GM's in control. I doubt any commercially run MMO will ever come close to how much fun for EVERYONE that was.

MarioLemieux

GrumpyHobbit said:

Never really liked the way Full loot OW FFA PvP games work. 

The only tactic that is commonly stated in these types of games is to make many back-up versions of gear so that when it gets taken you just replace it. 

It just makes it a trivial and annoying aspect of the game. What is the point of stealing gear from another player if they can simply replace it right away.

Gear is worth money. The gear you steal, you can use it yourself and it saves you grinding time, or you can sell it and use the gold to buy other stuff.

You never wear good gear for fear of losing it. 

That is what bad players in this type of game do. Players who actually takes risks normally end up winning more than players who doesn't.

You never fight competitive fights so fights just turn into either high level/skill players killing noobs or gank squads picking off strays. 

That is not true at all. While what you say does happen, competitive fights happens all the time. You need to wear what you are ready to lose, and pick the fights that you think you can win (or  any fight if you don't care about losing what you are wearing).

Sorry but if I want PvP I play a PvP game, MMO's just never get it right. 

That is fine and understandable, I just believe that one doesn't have to go without the other. I believe that if well done, a MMO with awesome pvp could work.

The ONLY time full loot FFA OW PvP has worked in my opinion was on a fully enforced RP private server in Neverwinter Nights with GM's in control. I doubt any commercially run MMO will ever come close to how much fun for EVERYONE that was.

Kilrain

I think this is the most pointless post I've seen in the last month if not more.







... and this is almost the most pointless comment. Almost.

Ikisis

MarioLemieux said:

AngryElf said:

No, just stating the difference.  No expansion I'm aware of is a full wipe.  What you've earned stays on your character.  Hard to be competitive with no gear. 

You keep your gear, but his point is that it becomes obsolete and you have to go and grind again to get a new one

Not only the fact its obsolete, but that you spent Years to acquire it and poof years gone, time to start again.

But that feeling when im in Bone armor half set, Chain chest, Plate helm. And i scrub out my enemy in Full Dragon or Infernal because MY AIM was better.
I just upgraded from a 200 gold Gear bag to a 100k - 200k Gold Gear bag. (You will NEVER EVER get that kind of rush or excitement from any Theme park or any game out on the market for that matter).

Aside from that Your Fam Vs Enemy Fam in a 500 vs 500 head to head siege for 3 hours (Which runs over 200 fps even on old pc's) Many of which are experiences that people talk about for years, because it was such a adrenaline rush you remember it as a fond memory.

Rat Race < Competitive Risk vs Reward