Time to take a look back at the concept of "Levels" and the role they play in MMOs

MMOExposed

What exactly were Levels meant to accomplish in this genre?  

Have is lived up to that? 

And what do you see of this concept going forward in the genre?

Wizardry

I am not sure but i assume possibly to mimic aging but again not certain.

The concept as it has been delivered is a real bad one because it is driven by non realistic mechanics.Even the driving mechanics of quests is for the most part non realistic,basically just very simple code/triggers to support leveling points.I like to use "points" because by no means possible does it relate to the term experience.so in essence the term has been misused.

Where does it go moving forward?Likely the same old,nobody is changing the format used because it is EASY to design a game this way.However devs proving their lack of common sense are shooting themselves i nthe foot,nobody is going to create enough content to support levels in a realistic aging process.

Also devs are more worried about attention span of gamer's,than any game integrity.SO if they tried to remove levels and add in aging they likely lose all those hyper impatient ADDS players that think mmorpg=end game instance looting+pvp.SO if anything and already apparent,i expect to see even faster routes,easier routes,tons of hand holding to get players to end game pvp.

craftseeker

Wizardry said:

I am not sure but i assume possibly to mimic aging but again not certain.

The concept as it has been delivered is a real bad one because it is driven by non realistic mechanics.Even the driving mechanics of quests is for the most part non realistic,basically just very simple code/triggers to support leveling points.I like to use "points" because by no means possible does it relate to the term experience.so in essence the term has been misused.

Where does it go moving forward?Likely the same old,nobody is changing the format used because it is EASY to design a game this way.However devs proving their lack of common sense are shooting themselves i nthe foot,nobody is going to create enough content to support levels in a realistic aging process.

Also devs are more worried about attention span of gamer's,than any game integrity.SO if they tried to remove levels and add in aging they likely lose all those hyper impatient ADDS players that think mmorpg=end game instance looting+pvp.SO if anything and already apparent,i expect to see even faster routes,easier routes,tons of hand holding to get players to end game pvp.

Not to simulate aging, that has been done from time to time and usually results in things like changes to strength, stamina and agility. If you go back to Dungeons and Dragons you will see formulas for character aging (by race) alongside class levels. If it was intended to be anything it was meant to indicate a gnostic hierarchy of knowledge, as you moved up in your class you were gaining access to more and more arcane details of your profession passed to you by masters. Computer games ramped this up well beyond eleven and took out the periods of training with a higher level master.

Yoottos'Horg

I’m sure you could break it down to the fact that people are, generally, linear in that there is a beginning, middle, and end. Leveling fits that mold and gives people the structure they’re used to. I think leveling also allows people to compare their characters to others. If everyone has the same thing, the same level (or whatever you use to delineate one character from the next) then what mechanism is in place to differentiate your character from all others?

 

Different gear? Well this likely won’t happen since there will always be gear which is best suited for melee, ranged, defense, AOE, healing, pets, etc.

 

Different look? You can only customize so much and you are bound to run into someone else who looks very similar if not exactly the same.

 

Different areas explored? I don’t think there is a large enough demand for a purely exploration based game, at least not for the wide appeal of gamers.

 

Different skills? Again, there are only so many variations and certain skills will be best suited for certain tasks and the “ideal” skill combination will be used by the vast majority of gamers to best achieve that task.

 

So how do you break out from your peers if not for levels? Leveling allows people to “progress”, it offers a simple linear progression in any game and it lets you compare your character to all others. I’m hard pressed to think of another mechanism which can meet all of these wickets while also lending relevance to the game.

Ceryshen

I think it's just there to make the game a pain in the a$$ and drag on so you want to buy xp potions to make it faster in order to get to the real game. They don't even give you any loot along the way that's usable at later levels anymore ... it's throw away junk.

Antiquated

MMOExposed said:

What exactly were Levels meant to accomplish in this genre?  

Mimicing D&D, a hallmark to the origins of RP. One of those ongoing assumptions that persists because we're used to it.

An easy shorthand progress bar for "progression." And we're used to watching progress bars, because we're used to computers.

Ever notice how many alternative models have been conceived and implemented over the decades, and how few have survived?

Still, it's good to tinker with the standards and reevaluate your approach now and then.

Imagine a non-linearly constructed Time Travel RPG, and you might be on the way to being able to discard Levels. Or you might be on the way to creating a mess.

(People are linear, mostly. Imagine your progress bar from grade school through retirement, and you will note frequent "Dings" along the way. If RPGs have a true failing, from a 'realism' standpoint, it's 'immortal youth'.)

iixviiiix

What we have now are hard level walls that hurt my face each time i hit them .
Since i grow "old" and the tooth fairy stop visit me , i prefer something soft to chew instead of the hard walls .

They put too much ciment on level system .

They should use level as stats progress , not lock or wall . I ready hate have to leveling to unlock contents like gears or skills or map . Do you think  it funny that a level 50 can beat up a level 49 because the next gears on level 50 , and more skill too .
And he can run level 50 dungeon ...

GrumpyHobbit

In simplistic terms levels were used as a quick categorization system to let DM's provide a challenge to the players in a RP setting and the system translates very easy to computers.

You are level 6. So grab a level 6 monster from the monsters compendium and you have a nice challenge. 

Want to reward the player. Just roll a dice against the loot drop table for the level 6 monster. 

It performs the same function that any label or categorization does and that is the speed up and remove the repetitive nature of a given task.

Archlyte

Agree with Craftseeker & Antiquated. I think that credit goes to Dave Arneson for deciding to give pieces bonuses for each wargame battle they lived through, and using fewer pieces that had stories, and were thus characters.

cameltosis

I've never had much love for leveling up in computer games, there is no equivalent in real life so it's never made much sense to me. 

I do, however, understand the need to categorise a player's power / progression. Levels are an easy way to do this and by tying character progression (skill unlocks, gear unlocks) to levels it does make categorising and predicting players power much easier, which in turn makes balancing content easier which in turn should increase the fun and reduce costs. 


I definitely prefer games without levels. I always thought the template / skillboxes approach of SWG and similar games was superior. There are no levels and all content is open to you, but comparisons for balancing are done based on gear and stats, rather than an artificial level. The SWG comparison algorithms were pretty terrible, admittedly, but if you got them right it would be better. You can still have plenty of progression without levels and you can still gate content behind progression if you need to, i.e. don't let someone enter a raid unless they have mastered a profession etc. 

Theocritus

Leveling to me usually represented that I am getting better.....My skills, my talents, my body, everything.....I also like having the level carrot when I play also....When I reach the final level that has been the end of the game for me every time.

Konfess

Levels are a part of PnP D&D, I would say a part of general roleplaying.  Any system where stats or attributes can increase is a level based system.  The underlying purpose of levels is to gain a sense of accomplishment, mainly for Achiever types.  The role of levels is never ending.

Neanderthal

The sole purpose of levels is to give players the illusion that they are becoming more powerful.  That's it...there is nothing more too it.

People like to feel like they are gaining power and that's why it caught on and stuck for all these years.  Unfortunately it comes at a cost.  It forces linear game design.  It makes a "world" type of game nearly impossible.  It leads to trivialization of lower level areas and stagnation of a game as it gets older and the player base becomes top heavy.

But people like to "ding" gain that next level and it's easy for devs to just keep doing things the way they have always been done.

SEANMCAD

it comes from a gaming concept that is literally about 40 years old now. 'levels' also takes away alot from the advantages of a good 'classless' system in my personal view

Distopia

craftseeker said:

Wizardry said:

I am not sure but i assume possibly to mimic aging but again not certain.

The concept as it has been delivered is a real bad one because it is driven by non realistic mechanics.Even the driving mechanics of quests is for the most part non realistic,basically just very simple code/triggers to support leveling points.I like to use "points" because by no means possible does it relate to the term experience.so in essence the term has been misused.

Where does it go moving forward?Likely the same old,nobody is changing the format used because it is EASY to design a game this way.However devs proving their lack of common sense are shooting themselves i nthe foot,nobody is going to create enough content to support levels in a realistic aging process.

Also devs are more worried about attention span of gamer's,than any game integrity.SO if they tried to remove levels and add in aging they likely lose all those hyper impatient ADDS players that think mmorpg=end game instance looting+pvp.SO if anything and already apparent,i expect to see even faster routes,easier routes,tons of hand holding to get players to end game pvp.

Not to simulate aging, that has been done from time to time and usually results in things like changes to strength, stamina and agility. If you go back to Dungeons and Dragons you will see formulas for character aging (by race) alongside class levels. If it was intended to be anything it was meant to indicate a gnostic hierarchy of knowledge, as you moved up in your class you were gaining access to more and more arcane details of your profession passed to you by masters. Computer games ramped this up well beyond eleven and took out the periods of training with a higher level master.

Essentially this^ Levels on a basic level just portray starting out as nothing and becoming something.

Flyte27

As some people have mentioned it has been stripped down a lot over the years to make it more accessible to more people.

We have seen a shift away from level giving power to items giving power.  In the beginning items were fairly scare.  Most of your power came from how much your character knew in terms of abilities.  New levels gave new abilities.

Another factor to consider is HP.  HP often represents a characters ability to take damage before dying.  HP was really overblown in D&D style MMOs.  A character of high level would have much more HP than one of low level.  A better system would be to have the HP remain the same, but have things like resistance to damage instead.  Some people would rather just have everything based on player reflexes.

I would hope levels represent a players advancement and how much more capable they are at their profession/professions.  I also miss that trainers are being take out of games.  WoW is a good example.  Originally there were class quests and you had to at least go to the appropriate trainer to train new abilities.  Going even further back you had spells in UO and EQ where you had to craft them and it wasn't always easy to get the needed ingredients.

Items have really been a pox on games IMO.  They shift the focus towards gaining new items instead of on the character and the story.

goboygo

Unless you want to remove progression from MMO's you cant remove the different ways to measure it, one way happens to be levels.  Its really not the complicated.  Company's are exploring different ways to measure progression but at the end of day it doesn't really matter, levels, stats, knowledge, unlocks, skill upgrades, call it what you want.

waynejr2

MMOExposed said:

What exactly were Levels meant to accomplish in this genre?  

Have is lived up to that? 

And what do you see of this concept going forward in the genre?

I like levels.  It is ok if you don't.  Different strokes for different folks.

waynejr2

Antiquated said:

MMOExposed said:

What exactly were Levels meant to accomplish in this genre?  

Mimicing D&D, a hallmark to the origins of RP. One of those ongoing assumptions that persists because we're used to it.

An easy shorthand progress bar for "progression." And we're used to watching progress bars, because we're used to computers.

Ever notice how many alternative models have been conceived and implemented over the decades, and how few have survived?

Still, it's good to tinker with the standards and reevaluate your approach now and then.

Imagine a non-linearly constructed Time Travel RPG, and you might be on the way to being able to discard Levels. Or you might be on the way to creating a mess.

(People are linear, mostly. Imagine your progress bar from grade school through retirement, and you will note frequent "Dings" along the way. If RPGs have a true failing, from a 'realism' standpoint, it's 'immortal youth'.)

Yup.  Take a look at Metamorphosis Alpha.  It didn't have the traditional levels.  It suffered with fans.  That was back in 1976.  Perhaps today's modern players would love it.

Theocritus

SEANMCAD said:

it comes from a gaming concept that is literally about 40 years old now. 'levels' also takes away alot from the advantages of a good 'classless' system in my personal view

What game has a good classless system and isn't raising skills just like leveling?

Amathe

It's a way to measure increase in a character's overall power. It's also a way to organize players into content that is suited to them. I first encountered it in pen and paper AD&D. 

craftseeker

cameltosis said:

I've never had much love for leveling up in computer games, there is no equivalent in real life so it's never made much sense to me. 

Never practiced any martial art then? 
Those different colored belts and different degrees of ' Black belt' are levels after all. Then there is the priesthood in the Catholic church with different levels with different powers all the way up to papal infallibility. Lots of trade hierarchies too. Yes there are similar structures in real life.

Pepeq

cameltosis said:

I've never had much love for leveling up in computer games, there is no equivalent in real life so it's never made much sense to me.

Really?  Everything that you have learned in life has been leveling... you were a baby, then a toddler, then a teenager, then a young adult, then an elder... you learned to walk, to talk, to divide by zero... you played sports, played tournaments... you learned to mountain climb, then you climbed mountain x, then mountain y, then mountain z... you go to the gym an lift weights, then increase said weight, then again...

I don't see how you can't see the correlation.  Life is about leveling... ever heard of birthdays?  Anniversaries?  The list is endless... and it all has to do with leveling.

Moirae

Levels have existed in all forms of role playing since role playing existed. It's how you measure your progress and learning. Even if they aren't called levels, they are still levels. 

H0urg1ass

Pepeq said:

cameltosis said:

I've never had much love for leveling up in computer games, there is no equivalent in real life so it's never made much sense to me.

Really?  Everything that you have learned in life has been leveling... you were a baby, then a toddler, then a teenager, then a young adult, then an elder... you learned to walk, to talk, to divide by zero... you played sports, played tournaments... you learned to mountain climb, then you climbed mountain x, then mountain y, then mountain z... you go to the gym an lift weights, then increase said weight, then again...

I don't see how you can't see the correlation.  Life is about leveling... ever heard of birthdays?  Anniversaries?  The list is endless... and it all has to do with leveling.

Because it has nothing to do with leveling.

When you apply for a job, they don't ask you what level you are in system administration.  They don't ask you what level of race car driving skill you have if you're trying to get a ride in Formula 1.  Not only that, but skill levels are not commiserate with age.  I've known 13 year olds that could climb a mountain better than some 30 year old's.  Just because you leveled up to "Adult" doesn't mean you're any better than anything previously, especially adulting.

What they will ask you, is how skilled you are.  What skills do you have that make you qualified to do this job?  How many mountains have you climbed before?  What's your skill level in mountain climing?  Novice?  Expert?  If someone walked up to me and said they were a level 20 mountain climber, then I'd be a tad bit scared of their sanity level.

Which is why myself, and many others, are proponents of axing the ridiculous level based system and going towards skills based systems.

craftseeker

H0urg1ass said:

Pepeq said:

cameltosis said:

I've never had much love for leveling up in computer games, there is no equivalent in real life so it's never made much sense to me.

Really?  Everything that you have learned in life has been leveling... you were a baby, then a toddler, then a teenager, then a young adult, then an elder... you learned to walk, to talk, to divide by zero... you played sports, played tournaments... you learned to mountain climb, then you climbed mountain x, then mountain y, then mountain z... you go to the gym an lift weights, then increase said weight, then again...

I don't see how you can't see the correlation.  Life is about leveling... ever heard of birthdays?  Anniversaries?  The list is endless... and it all has to do with leveling.

Because it has nothing to do with leveling.

When you apply for a job, they don't ask you what level you are in system administration.  They don't ask you what level of race car driving skill you have if you're trying to get a ride in Formula 1.  Not only that, but skill levels are not commiserate with age.  I've known 13 year olds that could climb a mountain better than some 30 year old's.  Just because you leveled up to "Adult" doesn't mean you're any better than anything previously, especially adulting.

What they will ask you, is how skilled you are.  What skills do you have that make you qualified to do this job?  How many mountains have you climbed before?  What's your skill level in mountain climing?  Novice?  Expert?  If someone walked up to me and said they were a level 20 mountain climber, then I'd be a tad bit scared of their sanity level.

Which is why myself, and many others, are proponents of axing the ridiculous level based system and going towards skills based systems.

Yet you say it yourself, 'what is your skill level' ? Novice, Expert.
Motor sport also has levels, you do not get a drive in Formula one without demonstrating your 'level' in some other grade of motorsport. You do not get to fly commercial passenger jets without demonstrating your 'level' in flying other aircraft. You do not qualify for the Olympics without demonstrating your 'level' in national and other competitions. Then there are education levels, particularly in higher education: diploma, bachelor, master, doctorate. All of which unlock different jobs.

Then there are my original examples. Yes skill development is important in real life but defined hierarchies of 'levels' exist too.