The Real "Problem" With The Division

maskedweasel

"My weapon doesn't determine how much damage I do?" 

After playing substantially, grouping with dozens of players, and fighting it out in the darkzone, I can say that thus far The Division has been the most fun game I've played in the past year.  While it does have its fair share of technical issues (mind you, I'm playing on the Xbox One so hacking isn't one of them),  the randomized crafting system and of course, the division has its own... "charm" (see - waiting in line for the quest NPC) --those, I feel, are minor problems.

I think The Divisions greatest strength is also its biggest "problem".  While its not an actual issue per se,  the RPG and Gearing features of The Division seem to confuse quite a bit of players.


At first I believed that this was due to the majority of confused players were Console players that aren't used to the "MMO-RPG-Class/Spec" Style of gameplay.  After speaking with a number of PC players, and my XBL group, just about everyone I spoke to has an issue understanding character stats.


I don't believe The Division is tough to understand.  Stats are really broken down into 4 parts total.  DPS, Stamina, Skill Power and Armor Rating.  Most green gear and above raises some of these stats,  but pretty much every facet of gameplay can change these stats.

The Division actually makes it easy... but it seems players aren't understanding what they're seeing as some items are "hidden".

For example.. I have 2 characters (simply because its easier than carrying around 2 sets of gear).  One is DPS the other is Support.  One focuses on DPS the other Skill Power.


In last nights hard mode mission I played with a group from the matchmaker on my support character.  Most of the players in the group were a level or two ahead of me so the mobs were higher than me as well -- but players were wondering why my heals were doing substantially more than theirs and how my Turret could essentially tank multiple enemies.  When I told them that my Skill Power was around 2400 (at level 9 thats really high) they asked, what does that mean?


I pulled them into the skill menu and explained that you can see how gear that increases the skill power stat can not only increase the effectiveness of your skills but also decreases skill cooldowns.  This information is hidden in a menu, so most players probably don't see a direct correlation and therefore have NO idea what their skill power stat really does.


I effectively have a recurring full heal with a 30 second cooldown in comparison to their heals that do barely 1 bar of healing with a 40+ second cooldown.  I explained how this is also possible with your Stamina and Armor rating for tanking and DPS stat for Damage.


Thats where they got extremely confused.  "So my weapon doesn't determine how much damage I do?"  one of them asked me.... and I told them... yes.. but only in part.  If you wear gear specifically designed to increase your DPS stat, you would likely do double the damage of your weapon or MORE.    They couldn't believe it.. it was like I slapped them in the face.

I ended up explaining the same things to my Room mate who is an avid MMO player, and my entire XBL team, all of which changed up their roles afterwards that changed the group dynamic in PvE and PvP like it was night and day.


I think what The Division does is pretty great, and I like HOW they're doing it... but I think they don't explain it well enough.  They do try to explain it in a tutorial window... but I think maybe they should have gone the extra mile here and done a tutorial from the top down.  Showed you what a high skill power, a high DPS, and a high Stamina character feels like so gamers can strive to become that or anything in between.

TL:DR ---  The Division should redo the tutorial to teach players how the gearing and specialization system works. 

Bellomo

Thanks for that info.

SEANMCAD

this video implies that its more likely those who dont like the game dont like it because its too easy and not very immersive. From watching the video I have experienced the things he is talking about exactly as he is talking about them in other games so I can associate with what he is saying even though I havent played the game

maskedweasel

SEANMCAD said:

this video implies that its more likely those who dont like the game dont like it because its too easy and not very immersive. From watching the video I have experienced the things he is talking about exactly as he is talking about them in other games so I can associate with what he is saying even though I havent played the game

The game is extremely difficult.  Extremely.  If you play a hard mode mission, even in the tutorial -- chances are you won't make it through alive the first time around.  Maybe not even the second time. 

In the Dark Zone its extremely tough too,  you can't just run by mobs as they will chase you and can fire at you from very long range.  Running into other players isn't great either.  I would also say the immersion level is quite high in comparison to other games out there.

That being said...  players aren't disliking the gearing system.. they just aren't understanding how to use it effectively. 

maskedweasel

I'm also going to update this with this link here: http://www.ign.com/wikis/the-division/What_The_Division_Doesn't_Tell_You which gives others some ideas of information the division doesn't really detail for players. 

I found these things out on my own but it would have been better if, at least some of these were known up front.  Some highlights:

"

DPS ISN'T EVERYTHING

Despite what your weapon inventory screen might appear to tell you at first glance, the DPS of any given weapon isn't necessarily an accurate representation of how that weapon will serve you in combat. For example, the DPS of the above LMG is technically higher than that of the Hunting Rifle.

However, in a firefight, one well-placed marksman round will do far more damage than a several-round burst from the LMG. Make sure to keep this in mind when preparing your loadout, and experiment with the various weapon types to figure out which ones best suit your play style.

STATUS EFFECTS

There are a variety of status effects that you can inflict on your enemies (both human and NPC), but you don't really learn what those are until you experience them for yourself.

Burning / bleeding effects (such as Incendiary Grenades or the BFB Sticky Bomb mod) prevent targets from running, which is especially useful in the Dark Zone (throwing an incendiary grenade at a group of extracting agents is a great first volley when going rogue).

Similarly, disorienting effects (like those from Smoke or Tear Gas grenades) prevent your targets from using cover.

You can also boost your own stats with consumable items:

• Canned Food: Increases healing effects by 40%
• Energy Bar: Instantly removes negative status effects.
• Water: Increases damage to elite enemies by 20%.
• Soda: Reduces Skill cooldown time by 30%

"

SEANMCAD

maskedweasel said:

SEANMCAD said:

this video implies that its more likely those who dont like the game dont like it because its too easy and not very immersive. From watching the video I have experienced the things he is talking about exactly as he is talking about them in other games so I can associate with what he is saying even though I havent played the game

The game is extremely difficult.  Extremely.  If you play a hard mode mission, even in the tutorial -- chances are you won't make it through alive the first time around.  Maybe not even the second time. 

In the Dark Zone its extremely tough too,  you can't just run by mobs as they will chase you and can fire at you from very long range.  Running into other players isn't great either.  I would also say the immersion level is quite high in comparison to other games out there.

That being said...  players aren't disliking the gearing system.. they just aren't understanding how to use it effectively. 

The video explicitly and in detail disagrees with your 'difficult' assessment. I encourage you to watch it and address those points

Burntvet

I frankly have a bigger problem with the $60 price tag and TWO release day DLCs, on top of several bugged and exploitable mechanics that were not identified during QC or beta.

If they had time to do two DLCs, they had time to fix what was obviously broken.

CrazKanuk

Burntvet said:

I frankly have a bigger problem with the $60 price tag and TWO release day DLCs, on top of several bugged and exploitable mechanics that were not identified during QC or beta.

If they had time to do two DLCs, they had time to fix what was obviously broken.

ok, ok, ok. First of all, this is a fallacy and it's one that is propagated much too often these days. There is no DLC. There is planned DLC, but it's not out yet. If you can find a AAA game that doesn't have plans for DLC, buy it!

CrazKanuk

SEANMCAD said:

maskedweasel said:

SEANMCAD said:

this video implies that its more likely those who dont like the game dont like it because its too easy and not very immersive. From watching the video I have experienced the things he is talking about exactly as he is talking about them in other games so I can associate with what he is saying even though I havent played the game

The game is extremely difficult.  Extremely.  If you play a hard mode mission, even in the tutorial -- chances are you won't make it through alive the first time around.  Maybe not even the second time. 

In the Dark Zone its extremely tough too,  you can't just run by mobs as they will chase you and can fire at you from very long range.  Running into other players isn't great either.  I would also say the immersion level is quite high in comparison to other games out there.

That being said...  players aren't disliking the gearing system.. they just aren't understanding how to use it effectively. 

The video explicitly and in detail disagrees with your 'difficult' assessment. I encourage you to watch it and address those points

Yes, and if you read the post above, you'd see that he explicitly says hard mode. Why don't you run off to the Internet, get some youtube videos about The Division hard mode (not beta) with someone saying it's easy, and then make an apples to apples comparison. 

Also, are you going to take someone serious who's talking about a game and saying that in real life when you crouch behind a box, you can't see anything, so that's so unrealistic in this game? Like for real. 

Derros

SEANMCAD said:

The video explicitly and in detail disagrees with your 'difficult' assessment. I encourage you to watch it and address those points

If its the video I think it is, his main point seems to be that he hates third person shooters because you can see the area around your character and over cover, 'Real gamers play FPS and games that dont have cover mechanics and all that'.

The comment of enemy variety and attacks is something im aware of, but any potential soultions are limited by the setting being more contemporary, so you cant suddenly have a T-virus monster or alien super weapon to fight with varied phases and such.

Burntvet

CrazKanuk said:

Burntvet said:

I frankly have a bigger problem with the $60 price tag and TWO release day DLCs, on top of several bugged and exploitable mechanics that were not identified during QC or beta.

If they had time to do two DLCs, they had time to fix what was obviously broken.

ok, ok, ok. First of all, this is a fallacy and it's one that is propagated much too often these days. There is no DLC. There is planned DLC, but it's not out yet. If you can find a AAA game that doesn't have plans for DLC, buy it!

Oh?

So I can't go to the Steam page, this very second, and see 2 different uniform packs for sale, in the DLC section?

And were they not offered on release day, and were they also not included in the price of a $60 game?

(It took developer time to do those item packs, and it is time that could have been spent fixing up some exploits and bugs, but no.... squeezing a few extra bucks on top of a full priced title is more important.)

Yeah..........

Talonsin

Thanks for the share OP. 

SEANMCAD

Derros said:

SEANMCAD said:

The video explicitly and in detail disagrees with your 'difficult' assessment. I encourage you to watch it and address those points

If its the video I think it is, his main point seems to be that he hates third person shooters because you can see the area around your character and over cover, 'Real gamers play FPS and games that dont have cover mechanics and all that'.

The comment of enemy variety and attacks is something im aware of, but any potential soultions are limited by the setting being more contemporary, so you cant suddenly have a T-virus monster or alien super weapon to fight with varied phases and such.

he also spoke about how easy the game is in general but yes ALSO easy because of that factor

SEANMCAD

CrazKanuk said:

SEANMCAD said:

maskedweasel said:

SEANMCAD said:

this video implies that its more likely those who dont like the game dont like it because its too easy and not very immersive. From watching the video I have experienced the things he is talking about exactly as he is talking about them in other games so I can associate with what he is saying even though I havent played the game

The game is extremely difficult.  Extremely.  If you play a hard mode mission, even in the tutorial -- chances are you won't make it through alive the first time around.  Maybe not even the second time. 

In the Dark Zone its extremely tough too,  you can't just run by mobs as they will chase you and can fire at you from very long range.  Running into other players isn't great either.  I would also say the immersion level is quite high in comparison to other games out there.

That being said...  players aren't disliking the gearing system.. they just aren't understanding how to use it effectively. 

The video explicitly and in detail disagrees with your 'difficult' assessment. I encourage you to watch it and address those points

Yes, and if you read the post above, you'd see that he explicitly says hard mode. Why don't you run off to the Internet, get some youtube videos about The Division hard mode (not beta) with someone saying it's easy, and then make an apples to apples comparison. 

Also, are you going to take someone serious who's talking about a game and saying that in real life when you crouch behind a box, you can't see anything, so that's so unrealistic in this game? Like for real. 

ummmm

so does the video...'in hard mode' yes...

CrazKanuk

Burntvet said:

CrazKanuk said:

Burntvet said:

I frankly have a bigger problem with the $60 price tag and TWO release day DLCs, on top of several bugged and exploitable mechanics that were not identified during QC or beta.

If they had time to do two DLCs, they had time to fix what was obviously broken.

ok, ok, ok. First of all, this is a fallacy and it's one that is propagated much too often these days. There is no DLC. There is planned DLC, but it's not out yet. If you can find a AAA game that doesn't have plans for DLC, buy it!

Oh?

So I can't go to the Steam page, this very second, and see 2 different uniform packs for sale, in the DLC section?

And were they not offered on release day, and were they also not included in the price of a $60 game?

(It took developer time to do those item packs, and it is time that could have been spent fixing up some exploits and bugs, but no.... squeezing a few extra bucks on top of a full priced title is more important.)

Yeah..........

*sigh* so sad. Yes, they released some skins. Keep on keepin' on with the ignorance. I won't even bother you with the whole video game pricing argument since I'm sure it would be lost on you. 

Derros

SEANMCAD said:

Derros said:

SEANMCAD said:

The video explicitly and in detail disagrees with your 'difficult' assessment. I encourage you to watch it and address those points

If its the video I think it is, his main point seems to be that he hates third person shooters because you can see the area around your character and over cover, 'Real gamers play FPS and games that dont have cover mechanics and all that'.

The comment of enemy variety and attacks is something im aware of, but any potential soultions are limited by the setting being more contemporary, so you cant suddenly have a T-virus monster or alien super weapon to fight with varied phases and such.

he also spoke about how easy the game is in general but yes ALSO easy because of that factor

Well, he really doesnt give any examples of what would be a better challenge, other than HL2, since you cant see the enemy when you hide from them. Really, I wouldnt choose WAB as a critical analysis of any game really, he seems to rather hate modern games as a whole.

SEANMCAD

Derros said:

SEANMCAD said:

Derros said:

SEANMCAD said:

The video explicitly and in detail disagrees with your 'difficult' assessment. I encourage you to watch it and address those points

If its the video I think it is, his main point seems to be that he hates third person shooters because you can see the area around your character and over cover, 'Real gamers play FPS and games that dont have cover mechanics and all that'.

The comment of enemy variety and attacks is something im aware of, but any potential soultions are limited by the setting being more contemporary, so you cant suddenly have a T-virus monster or alien super weapon to fight with varied phases and such.

he also spoke about how easy the game is in general but yes ALSO easy because of that factor

Well, he really doesnt give any examples of what would be a better challenge, other than HL2, since you cant see the enemy when you hide from them. Really, I wouldnt choose WAB as a critical analysis of any game really, he seems to rather hate modern games as a whole.

actualy he was very clear, specific and went into detail on how it could be better.

did you watch the same video as I did?

he talked about being able to see people behind structures with xray, he talked about seeing people over an obstruction you are behind because of 3rd person view, he talked about icons over their head and he talked about timming bullets while combating a boss

Burntvet

CrazKanuk said:

Burntvet said:

CrazKanuk said:

Burntvet said:

I frankly have a bigger problem with the $60 price tag and TWO release day DLCs, on top of several bugged and exploitable mechanics that were not identified during QC or beta.

If they had time to do two DLCs, they had time to fix what was obviously broken.

ok, ok, ok. First of all, this is a fallacy and it's one that is propagated much too often these days. There is no DLC. There is planned DLC, but it's not out yet. If you can find a AAA game that doesn't have plans for DLC, buy it!

Oh?

So I can't go to the Steam page, this very second, and see 2 different uniform packs for sale, in the DLC section?

And were they not offered on release day, and were they also not included in the price of a $60 game?

(It took developer time to do those item packs, and it is time that could have been spent fixing up some exploits and bugs, but no.... squeezing a few extra bucks on top of a full priced title is more important.)

Yeah..........

*sigh* so sad. Yes, they released some skins. Keep on keepin' on with the ignorance. I won't even bother you with the whole video game pricing argument since I'm sure it would be lost on you. 

Lol.

Which is even more ironic coming from a Canadian, who had to buy this thing at $79.99 CAN instead of $60 US.

(Oh please, bend me over further!)

Meh.

maskedweasel

SEANMCAD said:

maskedweasel said:

SEANMCAD said:

this video implies that its more likely those who dont like the game dont like it because its too easy and not very immersive. From watching the video I have experienced the things he is talking about exactly as he is talking about them in other games so I can associate with what he is saying even though I havent played the game

The game is extremely difficult.  Extremely.  If you play a hard mode mission, even in the tutorial -- chances are you won't make it through alive the first time around.  Maybe not even the second time. 

In the Dark Zone its extremely tough too,  you can't just run by mobs as they will chase you and can fire at you from very long range.  Running into other players isn't great either.  I would also say the immersion level is quite high in comparison to other games out there.

That being said...  players aren't disliking the gearing system.. they just aren't understanding how to use it effectively. 

The video explicitly and in detail disagrees with your 'difficult' assessment. I encourage you to watch it and address those points

I can clear that up real quick. He reviewed the Beta version... which they did increase the difficulty some, mostly the AI, and as far as I can tell from the video he didn't try a single hard mode mission.  The guy kinda made no sense in general about his complaints.. he spent a good 2 minutes or so complaining that they can't "see him" under cover...  and after taking a few shots they started shooting back at him... obviously he had no invisibility cloak there.  He was fighting level 5 trash mobs.




Check that one out.  This is about mid way through this mission, the very first part of this hard mode mission is extremely tough.. and you're getting perspective from a security spec'd player.. basically the tank.   He states in the comment " We were playing on the hard difficulty while leveling. It was a lot of fun and a good challenge. "

Derros

SEANMCAD said:

actualy he was very clear, specific and went into detail on how it could be better.

did you watch the same video as I did?

he talked about being able to see people behind structures with xray, he talked about seeing people over an obstruction you are behind because of 3rd person view, he talked about icons over their head and he talked about timming bullets while combating a boss

So? I dont agree that any of those contribute to lack of difficulty. Obfuscation, doesnt always benefit gameplay or players, especially in an RPG type game where there ARE things like different enemy level, rank, buffs, debuffs, ect. Also the skeleton thing is part of an ability and enemy debuff, again feeding into the rpg aspect. Also, its a 3rd person shooter, the camera is at a different angle, so yea you can see things you might not in a FPS.

You could have 2 enemies that look exactly the same, but one is an elite, and the other normal, you can kill one easy and the other not so much and can kill you easily. Its helpful to be able to tell those apart. Now you could argue that they should look different, but thats more an art complaint/setting limitation than anything.

maskedweasel

Burntvet said:

I frankly have a bigger problem with the $60 price tag and TWO release day DLCs, on top of several bugged and exploitable mechanics that were not identified during QC or beta.

If they had time to do two DLCs, they had time to fix what was obviously broken.

The two DLC's were actually not DLC's so much as skin packs.. people who bought the season pass got them for free -- it was an incentive.  This is the same as B2P games launching with a cash shop.  The only difference here is.. if you go to Ubisofts Hub you have the opportunity to get alternate costume packs for free. 

This was really just an additional incentive, the main thing you receive from these packs aside from the uniforms is the addition of 2 of the same assault rifle with different skins on them,  otherwise they are the same and only nominally better than the gun you start with.  They are level 4 weapons so you out level them quickly, but its a nice starter rifle, and some cool visual gear if you're into that. 

SEANMCAD

Derros said:

SEANMCAD said:

actualy he was very clear, specific and went into detail on how it could be better.

did you watch the same video as I did?

he talked about being able to see people behind structures with xray, he talked about seeing people over an obstruction you are behind because of 3rd person view, he talked about icons over their head and he talked about timming bullets while combating a boss

So? I dont agree that any of those contribute to lack of difficulty. Obfuscation, doesnt always benefit gameplay or players, especially in an RPG type game where there ARE things like different enemy level, rank, buffs, debuffs, ect. Also the skeleton thing is part of an ability and enemy debuff, again feeding into the rpg aspect. Also, its a 3rd person shooter, the camera is at a different angle, so yea you can see things you might not in a FPS.

You could have 2 enemies that look exactly the same, but one is an elite, and the other normal, you can kill one easy and the other not so much and can kill you easily. Its helpful to be able to tell those apart. Now you could argue that they should look different, but thats more an art complaint/setting limitation than anything.

you might not agree with his views that is fine but its FAR from 'obfuscation' unless he is hiding something completely unrelated that makes it unusually hard.

look there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with the views on that video but to imply that because you dont agree that it is nearly liying is a bit extreeme dont you think?

I havent played The Division but I have played another game that he has played called 7 days to die in which he qualifies that game as actuallly hard. 

try that game on hard....you will s you pants

Derros

I was talking about obfuscation from a gameplay perspective, the game hiding game elements (like debuffs or other stats) not about the video creator.

I also never implied that he was lying about anything, his experiences and feelings about the game are his own.

maskedweasel

SEANMCAD said:

Derros said:

you might not agree with his views that is fine but its FAR from 'obfuscation' unless he is hiding something completely unrelated that makes it unusually hard.

look there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with the views on that video but to imply that because you dont agree that it is nearly liying is a bit extreeme dont you think?

I havent played The Division but I have played another game that he has played called 7 days to die in which he qualifies that game as actuallly hard. 

try that game on hard....you will s you pants

1) They are different types of games.

 2) Ark is substantially tougher than 7 days  

3) If you let this guy make all your decisions for you than I think you have bigger issues.  You're basing your decision off of HIS take on a beta, where he was already predisposed to disliking the game.  

 28) Come back after you've got some first hand experience and then let us know what you think.   You're basically parroting someone elses opinion and labeling it as your own.  Just be honest -- you don't like The Division because you don't like it.  It's not your "cup of tea" and therefore you're just looking for reassurance, but the "review" you're listening to isn't an accurate one.

SEANMCAD

maskedweasel said:

SEANMCAD said:

Derros said:

you might not agree with his views that is fine but its FAR from 'obfuscation' unless he is hiding something completely unrelated that makes it unusually hard.

look there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with the views on that video but to imply that because you dont agree that it is nearly liying is a bit extreeme dont you think?

I havent played The Division but I have played another game that he has played called 7 days to die in which he qualifies that game as actuallly hard. 

try that game on hard....you will s you pants

1) They are different types of games.

 2) Ark is substantially tougher than 7 days  

3) If you let this guy make all your decisions for you than I think you have bigger issues.  You're basing your decision off of HIS take on a beta, where he was already predisposed to disliking the game.  

 28) Come back after you've got some first hand experience and then let us know what you think.   You're basically parroting someone elses opinion and labeling it as your own.  Just be honest -- you don't like The Division because you don't like it.  It's not your "cup of tea" and therefore you're just looking for reassurance, but the "review" you're listening to isn't an accurate one.

1. that is super silly even more so with all these posts talking about how game labels dont matter. now what? because it has zombies its different and as a result not hard? really?

2. if your point number 1 is true why are you bringing up Ark?

3. I dont but I have played games that operate EXACTLY as he had described The Division and I already had about 200 hours in 7dtd before I even saw his video on the subject.

4. given that he was specific on how he felt The Diviison was easy perhaps you could to 

avalon1000

Headshots....that's all you need to know.  Two bullets two kills....