Why The Division Shouldn't Borrow RPG Certain Tropes - MMORPG.com News

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Why The Division Shouldn't Borrow RPG Certain Tropes - MMORPG.com News

If you haven't yet played Tom Clancy's The Division, you're missing out. It's too early to tell how long it will last, but The Division has been a good deal of fun so far. Its vision for a post-apocalyptic Manhattan is amazingly realized, and the sobering sense of wonder you'll feel wandering its snowy, abandoned streets is gripping. But I can't help but feel disappointed with how carelessly The Division treats that lovingly crafted world.

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barezz

Might want to edit that title real fast Nevermind

BillMurphy

Yep, saw it too.

Derros

I cant help but think that the city is just window dressing for the encounters and missions. They were probably trying to draw in their Far Cry and Assassin's Creed base by putting open world features in the game. Wait, arent the safe house bulletin boards just radio towers, revealing all the missions? 

klash2def

I agree. The division feels like destiny but in a semi realism setting. I thought I was the only one bothered by the fact that enemies with just a track jacket on take so many bullets to take down, or that people with supposedly nothing can give me a trendy jacket for a bottle of water or candy bar.

I think they had some good intentions and I personally wanted MORE rpg elements in the game, it actually felt like they were trying to make it RPG but didn't execute at that part. The shooter part of it is awesome. I love covered based shooters.

Also WTH are we buying weapons for from vendors if we are the government's last hope? It would make more sense to unlock weapons in an armory or something not buy them from the same government who sent us on the mission in the first place..

You know what? maybe that -is- accurate. 'Merica.

klash2def

Also game needs basic stat lines

Strength: Determine types of guns/ammo you can carry and how much
Speed: Determine how fast you sprint and aim
Endurance: How much health you have and how long you can sprint
Intelligence: What types of gadgets/devices you can use in the battlefield and how good they work.
Luck: How fast you find new weapons in game
Just that alone would make the RPG part better and give more variety to character types.

maskedweasel

I am starting to wonder why people are so critical of these little things other games have had for years.

I kill a wolf and it drops a sword and some cash in a fantasy setting?  Magic wolves, sure they exist.. but they carry swords and have wallets?


The Division IS a game...  you WANT NPCs that you help to give you something useful.  Most of the time you get a scarf or a coat -- but lets analyze that to the point the author of this article does.  It's POST APOCALYPTIC NEW YORK in the WINTER...  would someone really be giving you a COAT in exchange for a can of food?    The Agent Hubs are another thing -- you can effectively hotjoin groups at any time... it's all part of the game mechanic.  Going into a safehouse and seeing other players, its just a general hub and while it may be at odds with "the amount of agents that are actually in the world"  we still have to remember that this, in its entirety, is a game.  

Every game will hit those immersion breaking peaks. You generally don't get such critical views on the minor details such as gear drops.  I've had weapons drop from cleaners they don't use.  To go along with the "bullet sponge" argument,  how many times did we hear "Lightsabers should be one hit kills" in SWG and SWTOR from players but nary one from critics,  yet here we get a lot of "I shouldn't sink an entire magazine into an enemy to kill it".

Its an immersive game, yes, but it is still a game.  If you're looking to set down roots in Post Apocalyptic NYC, I don't think this game will be the one to do it.

SEANMCAD

I dont care about the success of Fallen Earth I love that game..correction..I like that game. I Love 7DTD but I LIKE Fallen Earth

maskedweasel

klash2def said:

Also game needs basic stat lines

Strength: Determine types of guns/ammo you can carry and how much
Speed: Determine how fast you sprint and aim
Endurance: How much health you have and how long you can sprint
Intelligence: What types of gadgets/devices you can use in the battlefield and how good they work.
Luck: How fast you find new weapons in game
Just that alone would make the RPG part better and give more variety to character types.

They VERY MUCH have stat lines .....  please see my post here http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/447300/the-real-problem-with-the-division#latest

This is what I'm talking about. A lot of players don't understand the game as an RPG.. they play it as a shooter which is fine.  This is Ubis problem.. they didn't explain it well enough in the tutorial.  

CrazKanuk

Hehe, oh you. Can't understand how the military can't come to a peaceful resolution. Peaceful resolutions are un-American! What are you, Canadian? Oh! Yeah, look at that, lol.

I do agree with you re: the swarm of agents, though. I feel like they had an opportunity to actually create a story around this massive group of people. So they have the ability to re-align that tired "chosen one" with one of a collective. Then..... NOPE!

klash2def

maskedweasel said:

klash2def said:

Also game needs basic stat lines

Strength: Determine types of guns/ammo you can carry and how much
Speed: Determine how fast you sprint and aim
Endurance: How much health you have and how long you can sprint
Intelligence: What types of gadgets/devices you can use in the battlefield and how good they work.
Luck: How fast you find new weapons in game
Just that alone would make the RPG part better and give more variety to character types.

They VERY MUCH have stat lines .....  please see my post here http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/447300/the-real-problem-with-the-division#latest

This is what I'm talking about. A lot of players don't understand the game as an RPG.. they play it as a shooter which is fine.  This is Ubis problem.. they didn't explain it well enough in the tutorial.  

I didn't mean to imply that it had NO stat lines, I meant something more basic and easy to understand. The game def does have stats but they are complicated to understand for most people. 

maskedweasel

klash2def said:

maskedweasel said:

klash2def said:

Also game needs basic stat lines

Strength: Determine types of guns/ammo you can carry and how much
Speed: Determine how fast you sprint and aim
Endurance: How much health you have and how long you can sprint
Intelligence: What types of gadgets/devices you can use in the battlefield and how good they work.
Luck: How fast you find new weapons in game
Just that alone would make the RPG part better and give more variety to character types.

They VERY MUCH have stat lines .....  please see my post here http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/447300/the-real-problem-with-the-division#latest

This is what I'm talking about. A lot of players don't understand the game as an RPG.. they play it as a shooter which is fine.  This is Ubis problem.. they didn't explain it well enough in the tutorial.  

I didn't mean to imply that it had NO stat lines, I meant something more basic and easy to understand. The game def does have stats but they are complicated to understand for most people. 

While i do agree it needs to be easier to understand, I think they actually made it PRETTY easy to grasp, but they didn't inform the playerbase about it properly.  I wrote a few ideas as to how they could have fixed this prior to launch.  I think in yours, you add MORE stat lines, which would actually make it tougher to spec for, at least post level 10 when you have Gear Mods and Weapon Mods to deal with.

What the division did the WORST that is really hindering the game right now is inform the player base.  They even made their tutorial windows too busy and people often don't want to read them.

It's my belief that the tutorial area is where you should learn in a hands on way, everything you need to know about the game.  They didn't do that... even hours after you're in the main world you're getting tutorial boxes with 5 different windows explaining what it is you're doing and how to do it and why you should do it.  It's too much and it's too late.  Inform them first, then guide them later if they ask for it.

RexKushman

maskedweasel said:

klash2def said:

maskedweasel said:

klash2def said:

Also game needs basic stat lines



Strength: Determine types of guns/ammo you can carry and how much

Speed: Determine how fast you sprint and aim

Endurance: How much health you have and how long you can sprint

Intelligence: What types of gadgets/devices you can use in the battlefield and how good they work.

Luck: How fast you find new weapons in game




Just that alone would make the RPG part better and give more variety to character types.

They VERY MUCH have stat lines .....  please see my post here http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/447300/the-real-problem-with-the-division#latest

This is what I'm talking about. A lot of players don't understand the game as an RPG.. they play it as a shooter which is fine.  This is Ubis problem.. they didn't explain it well enough in the tutorial.  

I didn't mean to imply that it had NO stat lines, I meant something more basic and easy to understand. The game def does have stats but they are complicated to understand for most people. 

While i do agree it needs to be easier to understand, I think they actually made it PRETTY easy to grasp, but they didn't inform the playerbase about it properly.  I wrote a few ideas as to how they could have fixed this prior to launch.  I think in yours, you add MORE stat lines, which would actually make it tougher to spec for, at least post level 10 when you have Gear Mods and Weapon Mods to deal with.

What the division did the WORST that is really hindering the game right now is inform the player base.  They even made their tutorial windows too busy and people often don't want to read them.

It's my belief that the tutorial area is where you should learn in a hands on way, everything you need to know about the game.  They didn't do that... even hours after you're in the main world you're getting tutorial boxes with 5 different windows explaining what it is you're doing and how to do it and why you should do it.  It's too much and it's too late.  Inform them first, then guide them later if they ask for it.

@maskedweasel ... You're post helped me and my group understand the game better, so Thank You. I agree that once you realize how the system works it is incredibly simple to use it to improve your character. People just need to be made more aware of how the stat system works, it doesnt need to be replaced or retooled.

SEANMCAD

maskedweasel said:

I have a question as an outsider: 
do the things you are talking about directly affect your game play?

example: In my favorite MMO there isnt an in game tutorial to learn how to improve my tools but if I dont learn them then my game play will be greatly limited in the long run.

BillMurphy

I really like the Division, as does Steven, but I agree that there's a sort of dissonance between the RPG elements and the "realistic" world they're putting out there. If it was just a little more Sci-Fi, somewhere between Division and Defiance, I don't think people would care.

RexKushman

SEANMCAD said:

maskedweasel said:

I have a question as an outsider: 
do the things you are talking about directly affect your game play?

example: In my favorite MMO there isnt an in game tutorial to learn how to improve my tools but if I dont learn them then my game play will be greatly limited in the long run.

Essentially yes.  If you just use a random mixing of gear and mods you will most definitely under perform, substantially. This might not be noticeable at lower levels but the content gets much harder as you get higher level and are doing hard mode missions. 

SEANMCAD

RexKushman said:

SEANMCAD said:

maskedweasel said:

I have a question as an outsider: 
do the things you are talking about directly affect your game play?

example: In my favorite MMO there isnt an in game tutorial to learn how to improve my tools but if I dont learn them then my game play will be greatly limited in the long run.

Essentially yes.  If you just use a random mixing of gear and mods you will most definitely under perform, substantially. This might not be noticeable at lower levels but the content gets much harder as you get higher level and are doing hard mode missions. 

gotcha...makes total sense.

Volgore

Very good article. I always like the pieces coming from Steven Messner.

Recently, mmorpg.com had some good freelance-writers at hand. Imo the overall quality of articles has improved by a ton.



TLDR-version:
10/10, would read again.

maskedweasel

BillMurphy said:

I really like the Division, as does Steven, but I agree that there's a sort of dissonance between the RPG elements and the "realistic" world they're putting out there. If it was just a little more Sci-Fi, somewhere between Division and Defiance, I don't think people would care.

@BillMurphy  I kind of understand, to a point, where you're coming from.  I think in some places the game seems disjointed because it has the immersive realistic cityscape but it also has those RPG mechanics that branch away from that realism.  I mean, in some cases they have "sci-fi-esque" elements, but the setting isn't remotely close to sci-fi.  In fact, the entire plot is supposed to hinge on the case of "it's plausible"  even going as far as using smallpox instead of *enter fantasy disease name here*.  

But that being said, I feel I'm more forgiving on some things, and less on others -- and those other things are mostly the game mechanics.  

@RexKushman I'm glad I could help you guys!   

SEANMCAD

maskedweasel said:

BillMurphy said:

I really like the Division, as does Steven, but I agree that there's a sort of dissonance between the RPG elements and the "realistic" world they're putting out there. If it was just a little more Sci-Fi, somewhere between Division and Defiance, I don't think people would care.

@BillMurphy  I kind of understand, to a point, where you're coming from.  I think in some places the game seems disjointed because it has the immersive realistic cityscape but it also has those RPG mechanics that branch away from that realism.  I mean, in some cases they have "sci-fi-esque" elements, but the setting isn't remotely close to sci-fi.  In fact, the entire plot is supposed to hinge on the case of "it's plausible"  even going as far as using smallpox instead of *enter fantasy disease name here*.  

But that being said, I feel I'm more forgiving on some things, and less on others -- and those other things are mostly the game mechanics.  

@RexKushman I'm glad I could help you guys!   

a few things even though I know you didnt direct that to me.

1. 'RPG' intent back in the days of D&D was actually designed with realism in mind. The attributes and skills for the most part where applied to qualities we have in real life, strength, dexterity etc. Only areas such as 'magic' would be specific to a genre.

2. making a plot use 'smallpox' instead of 'fantasy disease here' is so insignificant to the question of bringing over RPG elements into a modern world setting like Fallout which in of itself is insignificant that it makes me do a double take. Is that really where mainstreamers are now? talking about changing a plot to work for different settings as a cornerstone game of innovation?

BeansnBread

SEANMCAD said:

1. 'RPG' intent back in the days of D&D was actually designed with realism in mind. The attributes and skills for the most part where applied to qualities we have in real life, strength, dexterity etc. Only areas such as 'magic' would be specific to a genre.

That might be the most ridiculous thing that I've ever read about D&D. Did you know that D&D stood for Dungeons and DRAGONS?

Dreamo84

I just wish the dark zone wasn't the only MMO area with other players. I've learned to deal with a lot of suspension of disbelief for the other stuff.

SEANMCAD

Dreamo84 said:

I just wish the dark zone wasn't the only MMO area with other players. I've learned to deal with a lot of suspension of disbelief for the other stuff.

so they took a 'after playing your single player RPG you can then go into an online shooter mode but the difference between that and COD is that you have stats you created during your single player thus its an MMO'

who these guys just never stop with the B.S. do they?

waynejr2

Torval said:

It's an RPG shooter. If those things bother you then you better avoid the Borderlands series because it has those "annoyances" in spades.

All I really took from your article was that you think they should have gone full on CoD/CS:GO online. I think tons of CS:GO/CoD FPS fans are playing and digging the Division. I'm sure they might have liked a more one-shot horizontal gear approach as well as this. I doubt it would have attracted the broader audience. This is a crossover game. I think they took that route for a reason.

haha well said!

Solar_Prophet

SEANMCAD said:

Dreamo84 said:

I just wish the dark zone wasn't the only MMO area with other players. I've learned to deal with a lot of suspension of disbelief for the other stuff.

so they took a 'after playing your single player RPG you can then go into an online shooter mode but the difference between that and COD is that you have stats you created during your single player thus its an MMO'

who these guys just never stop with the B.S. do they?

Well, it's a good thing they don't advertise it as an MMO then, huh?

Seriously, did Tom Clancy or Ubisoft piss in your Cheerios or something?

maskedweasel

Solar_Prophet said:

SEANMCAD said:

Dreamo84 said:

I just wish the dark zone wasn't the only MMO area with other players. I've learned to deal with a lot of suspension of disbelief for the other stuff.

so they took a 'after playing your single player RPG you can then go into an online shooter mode but the difference between that and COD is that you have stats you created during your single player thus its an MMO'

who these guys just never stop with the B.S. do they?

Well, it's a good thing they don't advertise it as an MMO then, huh?

Seriously, did Tom Clancy or Ubisoft piss in your Cheerios or something?

Rumor has it The Division stole his girlfriend IRL