Small difficulty concern ( dungeon crowling across the map ).

delete5230

First let me say this is not one of my usual rant, infact I'll tone that down several notches.

But I do have a little concern with difficulty in the outside world combat.

In watching developers play on twitch, they seemed to be dungeon crawling across the zone with a group of 5.  Each single monster took care in bring down, then often you would see group mobs jumping in putting an extra strain on the party.  This to me is fantastic, because mmos should be designed with group hard content !........However, I group of 5 along with a need for a tank and healer ?......I was watching the Tank ( Brad ) getting constant heals.

Now I love this, groups working together with strategy in an unforgiving world.  But the need for a full dungeon group every time may be a little extreme. Now taking into account four things:

1) They know each other and are civil to each other, this doesn't always happen.

2) A slow moving group of 5 that waits for mana regeneration, doesn't always happen.

3) Being friends, having the same goal of moving across the map, this doesn't always happen. 

4) Voice. Using voice to call out strategy is extremely helpful, but that option will not happen too often.

An mmo like Vangaurd was unforgiving once you left a town city or village.  Same with a PvP game like Darkfall Unholy Wars.....I very much like that.  But getting a tank and healer....counting on it every time......could be a little much !

Now, I may not be the best mmo player in the car pool, but I'm extremely good at assembling groups for content.  But dungeon crawling groups ALL THE TIME in the outside world has me concerned.  They mentioned there will be solo and duo content available, but they were just moving across the map in the presentation.

No matter how group friendly an mmo player is, you have to admit, there are times where players like to just log in and go.  Will you need a group of 5 every time with tank and healer ? 

delete5230

When I get home from work at 5 pm and log in.....I'm not too sure I'll be able to assemble a full party every time, even with my twenty people friends list and a large friendly Guild. 

I'm not too sure others will have the same goal on a Tuesday evening as me......I don't think I'll be that important !!!

kitarad

May be these games are meant to be played during the weekend and for the rest of the week play something else.

'What's a weekend?'
The Dowager Countess of Grantham 

Dullahan

What Kano said, but also, chances are you will find groups around the fringes everywhere. It looked like there was no less than 5 or 6 groups worth of content in that tiny area of the zone we saw. Its likely that all of those groups will have room for more, so you could likely holler LFG and get a spot without taking on the burden of forming the group.

tats27

Maybe this game isn't for you then.

I hope this game is 99% forced grouping.

wanderica

As Kano and Dullahan said, there will be soloable content in the game across all levels.  What that content is has yet to be decided. 

I'm going to assume, from the tone of your post, that you never played EQ or FFXI in their earlier days.  "Forced grouping" isn't as bad as it sounds.  These games are very community driven, and leveling groups happen all the time.  It doesn't translate well on paper.  It's more something you have to experience.  Unless you're looking to do a specific dungeon or raid, then it's pretty easy to find a group.  Also, you should understand that the, extremely small, part of what Pantheon will be (showcased in the live stream) was done with the expressed intent of showing us how leveling and partying will work.  It was not meant to give us an in depth look into Pantheon's leveling system.

I will admit, though, it's not all rainbows and unicorn farts.  Sometimes you will have trouble finding a group, particularly as the game ages and groups look for more and more speed from their leveling groups.  Some tanks are better suited to pulling multiple mobs.  Some DPS have better AoE.  Some healers do better DPS, etc, etc.  To bottom line it for you: I think yours is a valid concern, but we don't yet know enough to complain about this.  The live stream was merely a preview into what Pantheon will become.

Kyleran

Easy solution to finding a regular group, play as a tank or healer, problem solved.

Here to help

Thebeasttt

Somehow OP didn't notice how fast mobs were dying. That wizard could've solo kited half those encounters to death.

Dullahan

Thebeasttt said:

Somehow OP didn't notice how fast mobs were dying. That wizard could've solo kited half those encounters to death.

Ya. On one occasion they rooted a yellow or red con orc and all just nuked it down from full to dead. In EQ, there was around a 20% chance for any spell to break a root, so that sort of thing was unusual.

I'm sure they realize this though, and will implement things like that in due time.

deniter

I don't mind most mobs being soloable for everyone as long as it requires you to keep your gear and skills up to date constantly.

What bothers me in vanilla WoW is how some classes can (almost) completely ignore gear and still be able to kill mobs with no effort, while others struggle even in good gear (for their level).

delete5230

wanderica said:

As Kano and Dullahan said, there will be soloable content in the game across all levels.  What that content is has yet to be decided. 

I'm going to assume, from the tone of your post, that you never played EQ or FFXI in their earlier days.  "Forced grouping" isn't as bad as it sounds.  These games are very community driven, and leveling groups happen all the time.  It doesn't translate well on paper.  It's more something you have to experience.  Unless you're looking to do a specific dungeon or raid, then it's pretty easy to find a group.  Also, you should understand that the, extremely small, part of what Pantheon will be (showcased in the live stream) was done with the expressed intent of showing us how leveling and partying will work.  It was not meant to give us an in depth look into Pantheon's leveling system.

I will admit, though, it's not all rainbows and unicorn farts.  Sometimes you will have trouble finding a group, particularly as the game ages and groups look for more and more speed from their leveling groups.  Some tanks are better suited to pulling multiple mobs.  Some DPS have better AoE.  Some healers do better DPS, etc, etc.  To bottom line it for you: I think yours is a valid concern, but we don't yet know enough to complain about this.  The live stream was merely a preview into what Pantheon will become.

Great Wanderica,

Your right, I never played EQ1 or FF11. 

My hardest was Vanguard and that was a step up from the mid level of EQ2 and Vanilla WoW.  Because of Vanguard I realized I definitely liked even harder because I had more friends. Reflecting back we would get lost in immersion trying to battle out that encampment or spider cave. You would approach it solo, test the waters only to get mobed and run like hell then circle back and group with that other guy standing their trying to figure out what to do.  Sometimes you would decide to wait for even more, and they always came. 

Simple stuff like this gave me long lasting memories.  This alone makes it an mmo.  It's imposable to get this from anything recent no matter what complexities developers give BECAUSE IT CAN BE DONE EASLY SOLO. 

With newer so called mmos, I don't care if you have this graphically beautiful castle where one would have to solve a puzzle to penetrate.....If it's solo content, its still just another game...No memories, just a feeling of " ok I did it now what ".

Vanguard was my template of hard.  It was my template of a good mmo.  Better in so many ways beyond Vanilla World of Warcraft, even if WOW had a more robust world to live in.

I just felt a little shock with the twitch stream is all.  It made me think how will I get groups like this ?...But your right, they do come naturally.  I remember with Vanguard, and yes Pantheon will be tweaked several times over.

I'M SO HAPPY DEVELOPERS DON'T CARE ABOUT GRAPHICS YET, or if at all !!!!!!   

Wizardry

If they "Brad" ever played FFXI he would know a system that works really well best i have ever played.

It allows both soloing and grouping but encourages grouping because it is faster and chain killing offers bonus xp.ALso they used a Renkai system which also offered Magic Burst bonuses, and weapon skill bonuses so it gets the entire group involved both melee and magic casters,yes even HEALERS,so much for Arena nets claims that Healers cant do anything in groups but heal.Only bummer for me was Square did not do it quite good enough,if someone came along and improved it i would be so happy.


The keyword is ...INCENTIVE,give players incentive to group and they will.This does NOT mean you FORCE anything or alienate someone wanting to solo,it just gives those who like to group in a game that SHOULD be about grouping the bonuses they deserve.

GOOD solid combat SHOULD need a group,you need healing,you need defense,you need buffs and debuffs you can't do all that solo.

This is also why i will always constantly ask for a sub class system.What a sub class system does is allow a player over a long period of time to continue to grow his player,give it more options,then eventually that player if wanted to COULD solo a LOT better,more efficiently but still never removing the power and efficiency of a group,it is the best of both worlds.

Kayo83

IMO they should keep solo play to a minimum. Have enough to level through, gain rep, or what have you but grouping content should be more than half of whats available to do as well as the most efficient. Solo play should take longer, be more repetitive, and less rewarding than going with a full group into a zone with elite, unsoloable mobs.

That said it really didnt look that difficult to me from the video. You heard one of them nervously "oooh boy" at 1-2 mobs and they'd take it down without much issue. Bad pulls were the only times they got in trouble and so long as it was 4-5 only one or 2 of them died. Its pre-alpha and still tougher than most current MMO's which is good, but I hope they up the stakes a bit between now and release.

Curt2013

delete5230 said:

No matter how group friendly an mmo player is, you have to admit, there are times where players like to just log in and go.  Will you need a group of 5 every time with tank and healer ? 

I could see it happening like this perhaps; 

Log on kill some appropriate lvl con mobs solo, whether they are light blue (if they have that con color) or dark blue. Maybe some local wild life or lower level camp of goblins or something. 

Get bored and decide you want some company and a bit more challenge or perhaps a bit more ease depending on how they make the game. Join lfg tab which I believe they will have not totally sure. Get a group mate in say 10 or 15 min and go from there. 

This is basically how I remember it when I use to play eq/vg granted vg much easier to solo.

Point is I just dont see it being so difficult your going to need full on optimal group unless your hitting dungeons or going through a higher lvl camp with red / yellow con mobs. Not to mention the aggro radius should scale differently with a blue con compared to red. Which would also make camping lower mobs easier / safer to pull.

qyte64

Kayo83 said:

That said it really didnt look that difficult to me from the video. You heard one of them nervously "oooh boy" at 1-2 mobs and they'd take it down without much issue. Bad pulls were the only times they got in trouble and so long as it was 4-5 only one or 2 of them died. Its pre-alpha and still tougher than most current MMO's which is good, but I hope they up the stakes a bit between now and release.

Well what bothers me is the fact that no one even noticed the rogue backstabs were doing something like 30x the damage of every other ability used by anyone. It was just a show and I think those mobs without the rogue would have depleted everyone's mana even at 1-2 mobs pull resulting in wipe fests. Well obviously they have a very long road ahead tweaking abilities and mobs and shaping the world that truly felt empty in the demo.

Sovrath

delete5230 said:

An mmo like Vangaurd was unforgiving once you left a town city or village.  Same with a PvP game like Darkfall Unholy Wars.....I very much like that.  But getting a tank and healer....counting on it every time......could be a little much !

My thought is that it's ok to run.

I actually like that. I would usually solo in Vanguard and there were many times I would find myself running.

Besides, if you look at the twitch stream they were clearly in an "area" that had such mobs. There is a difference between traveling on an open road and traveling through an inhabited area.

I'm not concerned.

Vesavius

delete5230 said:

When I get home from work at 5 pm and log in.....I'm not too sure I'll be able to assemble a full party every time, even with my twenty people friends list and a large friendly Guild. 

I'm not too sure others will have the same goal on a Tuesday evening as me......I don't think I'll be that important !!!

The thing that a interdependent MMORPG brings with it is the mindset of, "I'll help you, because I know you will help me next time".

In other words, people don't need to share goals in order to spend time with each other. In EQ I have spent literally hours helping a friend out, and have had had folks spend the same helping me out., even though there was nothing in it directly for the helper in the short term. This is what community is. At it's best, nothing restores my faith in gamer humanity as classic EQ.

Saying that, the game is pre pre Alpha. It will be fine tuned in terms of difficulty, and a million other things.

Vesavius

qyte64 said:

Kayo83 said:

That said it really didnt look that difficult to me from the video. You heard one of them nervously "oooh boy" at 1-2 mobs and they'd take it down without much issue. Bad pulls were the only times they got in trouble and so long as it was 4-5 only one or 2 of them died. Its pre-alpha and still tougher than most current MMO's which is good, but I hope they up the stakes a bit between now and release.

Well what bothers me is the fact that no one even noticed the rogue backstabs were doing something like 30x the damage of every other ability used by anyone. It was just a show and I think those mobs without the rogue would have depleted everyone's mana even at 1-2 mobs pull resulting in wipe fests. Well obviously they have a very long road ahead tweaking abilities and mobs and shaping the world that truly felt empty in the demo.

They clearly said in the stream that the backstab needs toning down. 

Distopia

This is the logical concern for this type of focus, at least in this day and age. There will certainly need to be some persuasion to get the overall playerbase conditioned back into the idea of needing other players again, rather than them being optional or an aside to the main focus of the game. 

Keep in mind you always have this place to look for people to tag along with.

phoenixfire2

Even in EQ classic you didn't need full balanced groups for low level grinding in open world.  Maybe in some of the dungeons, but even then I think just a healer + random melee + random etc would have been fine for most things up to a certain point.  Judging by the damage output I saw in the stream, I'd say what they were killing could easily be duo'd as long as some classes have pulling tools a la eq monk/bard/chanter.

Not really until you got into grinding camps that had named spawns did you need a proper group.

Hopefully they'll show some "camping" in a gameplay vid, where someone goes out and brings stuff back for the group.  I desperately hope there are classes with pulling tools, especially monk style as it was some of the most rewarding gaming I've ever done once you mastered it in EQ.