Games like EQ DAOC AC UO all made sure they spent the hours and time polishing expansions and kept their teams large and communities engaged. They didnt just dump expansions on you deciding to fix the bugs during live releases for weeks and weeks after. Content was made to last and grinding was harder, they also built communities through forced grouping of content not allowing you to solo to end game then group.
i had to laugh at this part, EQ was by far the worst mmo i have played in terms of how they handle expansions. they would churn them out every 9 months and they would be buggy as hell and not polished.
EQ is my all time favorite mmo as well so i'm not being biased. i also disagree the older games had more quality and polish lol thats a ridiculous statement.
if we are talking about quality as in game play and polish? it's not even debatable the newer games are more polished and have more features.
they may have a lot of the same features as well, which make them boring for people, but they are far more polished and have more features.
especially if we are talking about at launch? no debate there at all, most new mmo's when they launch are more polished and have a lot more content than the older mmo's
were you there for the EQ launch? if you were all i have to say is nuff said.
New features in those games is few and far between. The bulk of what you're claiming as new content is what Holden already mentioned as "cash shop content", being predominantly vanity items (hats, skins, etc).
The reality is that the game's playable content does not generally get a lot of updates (save for the minor balance/FOTM tweaks) in F2P titles because it's not necessary so long as the perceived standard is in the realm of "It's good for a F2P".
You might actually want to check that "reality" before you post something like that....
New features in those games is few and far between. The bulk of what you're claiming as new content is what Holden already mentioned as "cash shop content", being predominantly vanity items (hats, skins, etc).
The reality is that the game's playable content does not generally get a lot of updates (save for the minor balance/FOTM tweaks) in F2P titles because it's not necessary so long as the perceived standard is in the realm of "It's good for a F2P".
You might actually want to check that "reality" before you post something like that....
Feel free to check the update history of LoL. You'll find your snarky indignation to be very unsupported by the reality you are attempting to question.
EDIT: TF2 and LoL both, really. One thrives on a shop whose life-cycle is one new character every so often to spur reflex buys in competitive play and the rest is hyped up skins (for example all the hub-ub around the project skins). The other follows suit with the epic idiosyncrasy that is the hat game.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
It's the same reason i dont like paying a daycare for my kid. if the day care is going to watch my kid 1 day a week,t hey want me to pay for 7 days a week. not gonna fly.
same thing with subscription model. if im gonna play an mmo 7 or less days a month, i dont wanna pay for a whole month. id rtaher it be f2p then i spend money nt he cash shop instead if i like th egame.
It's the same reason i dont like paying a daycare for my kid. if the day care is going to watch my kid 1 day a week,t hey want me to pay for 7 days a week. not gonna fly.
same thing with subscription model. if im gonna play an mmo 7 or less days a month, i dont wanna pay for a whole month. id rtaher it be f2p then i spend money nt he cash shop instead if i like th egame.
Probably a better way to look at this is how many hours you play per month for the sub fee. Then compare the hourly rate with seeing a movie etc. Subscription prices aren't based on a player playing for the entire month so I think your argument falls apart a bit there. The hourly rate would be a better argument.
It's the same reason i dont like paying a daycare for my kid. if the day care is going to watch my kid 1 day a week,t hey want me to pay for 7 days a week. not gonna fly.
same thing with subscription model. if im gonna play an mmo 7 or less days a month, i dont wanna pay for a whole month. id rtaher it be f2p then i spend money nt he cash shop instead if i like th egame.
Probably a better way to look at this is how many hours you play per month for the sub fee. Then compare the hourly rate with seeing a movie etc. Subscription prices aren't based on a player playing for the entire month so I think your argument falls apart a bit there. The hourly rate would be a better argument.
It's not an argument, it's a reason. I'm not trying to convince anyone I'm right or wrong, i'm stating why i wont play a sub game. Take that info however you want to.
It's the same reason i dont like paying a daycare for my kid. if the day care is going to watch my kid 1 day a week,t hey want me to pay for 7 days a week. not gonna fly.
same thing with subscription model. if im gonna play an mmo 7 or less days a month, i dont wanna pay for a whole month. id rtaher it be f2p then i spend money nt he cash shop instead if i like th egame.
Probably a better way to look at this is how many hours you play per month for the sub fee. Then compare the hourly rate with seeing a movie etc. Subscription prices aren't based on a player playing for the entire month so I think your argument falls apart a bit there. The hourly rate would be a better argument.
It's not an argument, it's a reason. I'm not trying to convince anyone I'm right or wrong, i'm stating why i wont play a sub game. Take that info however you want to.
Just saying, it's a tad odd to complain about investing $15 a month for entertainment that gives you seven nights of fun versus a movie ticket that costs $15 for one night or a F2P game that might average out to even more.
On a spureficial level it makes sense and we can understand it as an emotional/reflex reaction, but if you think about it or calculate it out it is kind of an odd reason/excuse.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Feel free to check the update history of LoL. You'll find your snarky indignation to be very unsupported by the reality you are attempting to question.
EDIT: TF2 and LoL both, really. One thrives on a shop whose life-cycle is one new character every so often to spur reflex buys in competitive play and the rest is hyped up skins (for example all the hub-ub around the project skins). The other follows suit with the epic idiosyncrasy that is the hat game.
...or maybe it is because they are MOBA/shooter, while having nothing to do with F2P model?
Feel free to check the update history of LoL. You'll find your snarky indignation to be very unsupported by the reality you are attempting to question.
EDIT: TF2 and LoL both, really. One thrives on a shop whose life-cycle is one new character every so often to spur reflex buys in competitive play and the rest is hyped up skins (for example all the hub-ub around the project skins). The other follows suit with the epic idiosyncrasy that is the hat game.
...or maybe it is because they are MOBA/shooter, while having nothing to do with F2P model?
Seriously.....
Even MOBA and shooters need a reason for you to keep playing. Adding more and more cosmetic content does nothing for increasing the variety of play. That people are more content to repeat the same task in those games is more of a comment on the different tolerances for repetitions some genres have.
You failed to address the point anyways. If you want an MMO example where the expansion content isn't paid/sub content then feel free to provide one.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Even MOBA and shooters need a reason for you to keep playing. Adding more and more cosmetic content does nothing for increasing the variety of play. That people are more content to repeat the same task in those games is more of a comment on the different tolerances for repetitions some genres have.
You failed to address the point anyways. If you want an MMO example where the expansion content isn't paid/sub content then feel free to provide one.
Variety of play comes from PVP, just like any sport - they are not being "updated" either. They are same principle.
I haven't failed, I have pointed out where you are wrong(twice now), nothing else can be added.
Variety of play comes from PVP, just like any sport - they are not being "updated" either. They are same principle.
I haven't failed, I have pointed out where you are wrong(twice now), nothing else can be added.
Variety of play comes from the variety of controls offered. What you mean to say is that difficulty is varied because humans are unpredictable. The variety of play (means you have of interacting with the game and variety of strategic options) is generally quite static.
Difficulty of a game based on human variance and the subsequent challenge it provides, it does not suddenly alter the way the game or maps work and players will still ultimately gravitate to the kits they have defined for themselves to use and reuse.
If you want to correct someone, the least you could do is be right.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Pretty simple - sub used to mean that's what the fee was, today sub means you can play plus face the cash shop. Cash shops have ruined gaming and ruined sub games furthermore.
Deivos said: What you mean to say is that difficulty is varied
No, what I say and what I meant is variety of play. Thanks.
Playing versus another human doesn't suddenly change the way the game controls or the map is laid out. Games are not magic, what's there for variety of options you can commit is what's been coded in as possible.
The only thing another player affects is how challenging that human is to beat using the provided game mechanics.
If you truly mean to say the new game content grows magically just because of players fighting one another, then you're simply wrong.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Even MOBA and shooters need a reason for you to keep playing. Adding more and more cosmetic content does nothing for increasing the variety of play. That people are more content to repeat the same task in those games is more of a comment on the different tolerances for repetitions some genres have.
You failed to address the point anyways. If you want an MMO example where the expansion content isn't paid/sub content then feel free to provide one.
Variety of play comes from PVP, just like any sport - they are not being "updated" either. They are same principle.
I haven't failed, I have pointed out where you are wrong(twice now), nothing else can be added.
A game works a little different in this aspect than physically active sports.
Here are some reasons as to why p2p is bad: 1. It locks you out of a game you paid for (sometimes upto $40-50, that ceases to work in 30 days unless you put more money down, over and over). This used to be accepted in the past, not so much now. 2. P2p games now double dip you anyway, they have cash shops and as such you aren't paying for everything (yes cosmetics are content to some people). 3. It puts a barrier to players coming back or joining your game. 4. Cash shops make more money than subs. 5. Why pay money for nothing, just to access a game when you can play something very comparable for free? Most of the time the only different between a p2p game and a f2p game is the graphics and art style, to many that's not enough to throw hundreds of dollars for. 6. There is nothing better about a p2p game over a f2p one, aside from the snob answer of "those people are trashy" or something.
The only time I'll pay a subscription for a game is if they offer a unique experience, I've paid for FFXI and Eve. The only other time I've paid a sub is when it's optional, as on Tera or Rift.
Subscription games are awful and a genuine ripoff, you buy something and they stop it working unless you pay more... laughably silly by todays standards
Your point number 2 is true and probably one of the biggest reasons people leave P2P MMOs. If not all content is included few people want to pay box prices and monthly fees.
Point 4 might be true, it doesn't matter since most companies believe it is so. I kinda think people have less expectations from a game that calls itself "free" and give those games more of a shot. A great game will earn money no matter if it is expensive at the start.
As for being snobbish, the people who actually bring in the main income for the F2P games, whales, are far more snobbish then any P2P fans. Heck, more than a few of them can spend thousands of dollars each month.
The thing is that most so called "free to play" games are actually freemium, the have an "optional" sub that you more or less have to play if you want to be useful in the game once you played a little. If your point 4 actually is true (not 100% that it is, it is for games that is poorly or average for sure but I am not so sure it would be for a great game) that would mean F2P actually is more expensive to play since it earn more. The alternative would be that far more players would pay somewhat less but MMOs have not gained several times the active players they had 5 years back so I don't think that is the reason.
F2P seems to be best for the publishers (or they think so, they could be wrong, the same people thought copying Wow would give you even more players then Wow had or at least close) but what is best for the farmer doesn't have to be best for the cow.
Personally do I think they should focus more on making better games and less of turning us upside down and shake us so cash falls out of our pockets.
That said, I think P2P games did make a huge misstake by keeping box prices. They should have offered 1 free month and then started to charge $20 each month including expansions and all content. Expecting someone to first pay for the game (and any expansions already out) before getting hooked on the game is the thing that turns most people off new P2P games.
But itemshops really takes away a lot of the achivements from MMOs.
Even MOBA and shooters need a reason for you to keep playing. Adding more and more cosmetic content does nothing for increasing the variety of play. That people are more content to repeat the same task in those games is more of a comment on the different tolerances for repetitions some genres have.
You failed to address the point anyways. If you want an MMO example where the expansion content isn't paid/sub content then feel free to provide one.
Variety of play comes from PVP, just like any sport - they are not being "updated" either. They are same principle.
I haven't failed, I have pointed out where you are wrong(twice now), nothing else can be added.
A game works a little different in this aspect than physically active sports.
Yeah, this PVP (video game) thing being compared to any sort of "sport" leads me to believe that those who make the comparison have little to no experience in an actual sport. It's laughable at best.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Sub games live or die on content because that's all there is. F2P games live or die (they never die, not the big ones anyway) because of the cash shop. Therefore Devs spend more time updating the cash shop then the game.
Not sure what kind of indie games you work on but this is the case for AAA titles.
Oh well of course if you pretend content isn't content then you'd feel that way.
Meanwhile in real life, when LoL or TF2 or any other games releases vanity item content or new features or new zones, that's all content. The reality is that without constantly injecting their game with new content, revenue will decline considerably faster.
LOL OK, "Vaniety Item content". Technically you're right but when I think of an MMO updating content, I don't think of it adding new costumes/skins to the cash shop.
Next thing we know, f2p games will be charging us for "Cash shop expansions" so we can access all the the cash shop.
btw, I currently pay a f2p game, but I would much rather it be a sub game. I usually end up subbing to f2p games that I like anyway, so they end up always being more expensive for me, since I have to pay even more just to unlock everything on top of the sub. Not only that, like I said, I don't feel like I can vote with my wallet.
LOL OK, "Vaniety Item content". Technically you're right but when I think of an MMO updating content, I don't think of it adding new costumes/skins to the cash shop.
Still pushig this....?
F2P games do update "regular" content on regular basis.
Just reading the news here:
SWTOR - should I say more? B&S - new dungeons, continent, levels, classes Skyforge - new progression system, more missions, new features PWO - getting housing, new dungeons
PoE got new class and content released just recently. The list can go and on... Pretty much any F2P game that is making enough money is delivering new content, and that is not just cash shop vanity items.
LOL OK, "Vaniety Item content". Technically you're right but when I think of an MMO updating content, I don't think of it adding new costumes/skins to the cash shop.
Still pushig this....?
F2P games do update "regular" content on regular basis.
Just reading the news here:
SWTOR - should I say more? B&S - new dungeons, continent, levels, classes Skyforge - new progression system, more missions, new features PWO - getting housing, new dungeons
PoE got new class and content released just recently. The list can go and on... Pretty much any F2P game that is making enough money is delivering new content, and that is not just cash shop vanity items.
Stop talking out of your a**, please...
Straw man.
Nothing holdenhamlet said, including the parts you didn't quote, was a claim that F2P games don't do regular content.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Nothing holdenhamlet said, including the parts you didn't quote, was a claim that F2P games don't do regular content.
The claim was that F2P games update more the cash shop than regular content, which is not true - hence mentioned recent updates.
There is no point filling your cash shop with items when your spenders already moved on because there is no new "regular" content that would stick them with the game.
The claim was that F2P games update more the cash shop than regular content, which is not true - hence mentioned recent updates.
There is no point filling your cash shop with items when your spenders already moved on because there is no new "regular" content that would stick them with the game.
Instead of disagreeing with people without reading what they're saying maybe go back and read what Holdenhamlet said, and realize you're just wrong.
They said "when I think of an MMO updating content, I don't think of it adding new costumes/skins to the cash shop". In context it wasn't even a commentary on how much of which type of content gets made, but part of a discussion of what they consider "content."
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
EQ is my all time favorite mmo as well so i'm not being biased. i also disagree the older games had more quality and polish lol thats a ridiculous statement.
if we are talking about quality as in game play and polish? it's not even debatable the newer games are more polished and have more features.
they may have a lot of the same features as well, which make them boring for people, but they are far more polished and have more features.
especially if we are talking about at launch? no debate there at all, most new mmo's when they launch are more polished and have a lot more content than the older mmo's
were you there for the EQ launch? if you were all i have to say is nuff said.
EDIT: TF2 and LoL both, really. One thrives on a shop whose life-cycle is one new character every so often to spur reflex buys in competitive play and the rest is hyped up skins (for example all the hub-ub around the project skins). The other follows suit with the epic idiosyncrasy that is the hat game.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
same thing with subscription model. if im gonna play an mmo 7 or less days a month, i dont wanna pay for a whole month. id rtaher it be f2p then i spend money nt he cash shop instead if i like th egame.
Probably a better way to look at this is how many hours you play per month for the sub fee. Then compare the hourly rate with seeing a movie etc. Subscription prices aren't based on a player playing for the entire month so I think your argument falls apart a bit there. The hourly rate would be a better argument.
On a spureficial level it makes sense and we can understand it as an emotional/reflex reaction, but if you think about it or calculate it out it is kind of an odd reason/excuse.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Seriously.....
You failed to address the point anyways. If you want an MMO example where the expansion content isn't paid/sub content then feel free to provide one.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I haven't failed, I have pointed out where you are wrong(twice now), nothing else can be added.
Difficulty of a game based on human variance and the subsequent challenge it provides, it does not suddenly alter the way the game or maps work and players will still ultimately gravitate to the kits they have defined for themselves to use and reuse.
If you want to correct someone, the least you could do is be right.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
The only thing another player affects is how challenging that human is to beat using the provided game mechanics.
If you truly mean to say the new game content grows magically just because of players fighting one another, then you're simply wrong.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
A game works a little different in this aspect than physically active sports.
Point 4 might be true, it doesn't matter since most companies believe it is so. I kinda think people have less expectations from a game that calls itself "free" and give those games more of a shot. A great game will earn money no matter if it is expensive at the start.
As for being snobbish, the people who actually bring in the main income for the F2P games, whales, are far more snobbish then any P2P fans. Heck, more than a few of them can spend thousands of dollars each month.
The thing is that most so called "free to play" games are actually freemium, the have an "optional" sub that you more or less have to play if you want to be useful in the game once you played a little. If your point 4 actually is true (not 100% that it is, it is for games that is poorly or average for sure but I am not so sure it would be for a great game) that would mean F2P actually is more expensive to play since it earn more. The alternative would be that far more players would pay somewhat less but MMOs have not gained several times the active players they had 5 years back so I don't think that is the reason.
F2P seems to be best for the publishers (or they think so, they could be wrong, the same people thought copying Wow would give you even more players then Wow had or at least close) but what is best for the farmer doesn't have to be best for the cow.
Personally do I think they should focus more on making better games and less of turning us upside down and shake us so cash falls out of our pockets.
That said, I think P2P games did make a huge misstake by keeping box prices. They should have offered 1 free month and then started to charge $20 each month including expansions and all content. Expecting someone to first pay for the game (and any expansions already out) before getting hooked on the game is the thing that turns most people off new P2P games.
But itemshops really takes away a lot of the achivements from MMOs.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Next thing we know, f2p games will be charging us for "Cash shop expansions" so we can access all the the cash shop.
btw, I currently pay a f2p game, but I would much rather it be a sub game. I usually end up subbing to f2p games that I like anyway, so they end up always being more expensive for me, since I have to pay even more just to unlock everything on top of the sub. Not only that, like I said, I don't feel like I can vote with my wallet.
F2P games do update "regular" content on regular basis.
Just reading the news here:
SWTOR - should I say more?
B&S - new dungeons, continent, levels, classes
Skyforge - new progression system, more missions, new features
PWO - getting housing, new dungeons
PoE got new class and content released just recently. The list can go and on... Pretty much any F2P game that is making enough money is delivering new content, and that is not just cash shop vanity items.
Stop talking out of your a**, please...
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Nothing holdenhamlet said, including the parts you didn't quote, was a claim that F2P games don't do regular content.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Important distinction to make there.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
There is no point filling your cash shop with items when your spenders already moved on because there is no new "regular" content that would stick them with the game.
They said "when I think of an MMO updating content, I don't think of it adding new costumes/skins to the cash shop". In context it wasn't even a commentary on how much of which type of content gets made, but part of a discussion of what they consider "content."
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver