I agree with your conclusion that classic EQ possessed unique elements lacking in today's scene, elements that are sorely missed. However, none of your arguments successfully argue for the superiority of those elements.
Essentially this, it's a trade off, class & race choices vs modern content types (IE scripted dungeons, bosses, raids, cinematic questing, which is a simple matter of preference.)
I loved all of the options SWG offered in terms of building a character. As well as the outfitting options (damage types, different resistances, etc..) Yet at the end of the day the game suffered because it didn't have much in the way of interesting content. You can find many who complain about this to this day. So in the end what would have been best for the game, especially when considering modern audiences.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I agree that EQ was a good game with many great features (for it's time.) I thought that UO was a far superior game and play it much more then EQ during that time period.
I agree with your conclusion that classic EQ possessed unique elements lacking in today's scene, elements that are sorely missed. However, none of your arguments successfully argue for the superiority of those elements.
How about this, if wow never came a long and made the changes they made for profits and to reach the masses I would bet money MMO's would have stayed like AC and EQ. Why do I think that ? because now the masses want those old school immersive feelings back.. That in itself should be proof enough. Do you honestly believe if companies didn't just spend more money on marketing that the industry wouldn't have grown on its own lol.. I disagree if so.
I agree that EQ was a good game with many great features (for it's time.) I thought that UO was a far superior game and play it much more then EQ during that time period.
I think the point is all of those old school games each offered the same immersive experience that none do today. I would argue that the game specifics pre wow didn't even matter they were all just...well more fun.
And you could write another 100 pages of comparison where Eq beats any other mmorpg in features and complexity. I know the vanilla purists don't like later expansions, but to me up to the cursed GoD expansion Eq also improved immensely, and with those improvements at around the time of GoD, eq beats any newer mmorpg by so much it is ridiculous. Being a silly old idiot of course if I rated eq2004 at 100 points and eq1999 at 60 points, then the second best mmorpg would be WoW (BC-Wotlk) which I would put at 20 points, that is how superior I think eq is by design.
Anyways, I guess you had to have been there playing Eq to the maximum of its potential, diving into every detail and aspect of it from 1999-2005 to understand how advanced Eq was on so many levels. Those who say it is just turning on auto attack and xp grind only ever scratched the surface. And those who put wow and eq into the same category has no f.. clue what they are talking about. Owell speaking to the deaf.
Yes I played Eq recently, both p99 and progression servers, and with the rose tinted glasses off and despite its flaws.. still in 2016 eq pre GoD is the best mmorpg by far (NOT current live Eq which is shit!). Go ahead repeat your standard replies of rose tinted, living in the past, first love kind of stuff.. I still feel I can compare games from a objective point of view.. I played and loved many games pre 1999 that I don't consider those the best of that type today.. I still play new games and some are great, however none of those great ones are mmorpgs.
NAw man we get you lol its just a matter of time this next year we will have some good stuff coming out with Chronicles of Elyria hitting beta soon and Pantheon.. I think those two will be great. Its funny to because I literally just hit "T" to auto run to my quest in Black Desert then read this post.
Sorry, but stop looking through your rose tinted glasses.
Early EQ zones often looked like garbage. Are there exceptions? Yes.
But dungeons like Guk and Solusek looked terrible, they were claustrophobic, by the time you found your way through them you were in the next expansion, so everyone downloaded maps.
Also, they simply looked terrible, ugly and claustrophobic.
Of course they looked bad compared to newer games and graphic redisigns. Duh. Check out a list of games released in 1999 and show me the multiplayer PC games that looked good. That was a stupid post.
That's why I typed this in the op "Maybe it's just me but man comparing these new modern mmorpgs to a 17
year old EQ I really feel like they shouldn't just be putting Everquest
to shame in the graphics department but everything else as well. Thing
is most mmorpgs don't even come close to the features EQ had back in
1999."
This isn't about graphics. Everyone knows the graphics are crap compared to pretty much anything after it due to advancements in technology.
It's about the depth and variety provided.
Way to miss the point and go right to rose tinted glasses and graphics...
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Of course they looked bad compared to newer games and graphic redisigns. Duh. Check out a list of games released in 1999 and show me the multiplayer PC games that looked good. That was a stupid post.
It has nothing to do with that.
There were nicely designed zones that were fun to play in, in 1999. But the ugly random, claustrophobic and confusing dungeons of early EQ, like Guk, like Solusek, like Nagafen,....were terrible zones. They probably cost the designers a day to put together, they put no effort in them whatsoever.
There were nice zones in vanilla EQ, like CoM, Firiona and Faydark.
Of course they looked bad compared to newer games and graphic redisigns. Duh. Check out a list of games released in 1999 and show me the multiplayer PC games that looked good. That was a stupid post.
It has nothing to do with that.
There were nicely designed zones that were fun to play in, in 1999. But the ugly random, claustrophobic and confusing dungeons of early EQ, like Guk, like Solusek, like Nagafen,....were terrible zones. They probably cost the designers a day to put together, they put no effort in them whatsoever.
There were nice zones in vanilla EQ, like CoM and Firiona.
Both of which are from the Kunark expansion. Notice the title of the thread...
I would rather have a few bad designs then crap game play and features available like we often times get now.. Just another example backing the OP's original statment.
Both zones you mention are from Kunark not vanilla.
If you only mean antonica, then I can't agree, I think the zone design early on was often terrible.
Starting cities like Freeport, Neriak, Quenos were nice, commonlands and oceans of mar was nice, even the wide planes from Karana was nice. But the actual dungeons like Guk, Solusek and nagafen, they must have designed them in a single day, you can tell they didn't even care about them.
I hated the design of Solusek, you would fall off the side in the lava and clipping effects would bug out, in some claustrophobic badly designed zone where trains would kill you without warning, the zones often lagged, they were horrendous zones.
Of course they looked bad compared to newer games and graphic redisigns. Duh. Check out a list of games released in 1999 and show me the multiplayer PC games that looked good. That was a stupid post.
It has nothing to do with that.
There were nicely designed zones that were fun to play in, in 1999. But the ugly random, claustrophobic and confusing dungeons of early EQ, like Guk, like Solusek, like Nagafen,....were terrible zones. They probably cost the designers a day to put together, they put no effort in them whatsoever.
There were nice zones in vanilla EQ, like CoM, Firiona and Faydark.
So you prefer outside areas over dungeons?
I think I prefer claustrophobic and confusing dungeons.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I think, many people who stopped playing EQ early on, look at it as if was perfect and had no flaws, I think many who kept playing eventually saw that many mistakes were made early on.
People who played "vanilla", or people who played up until Kunark or PoP, have a very rose-tinted look when they look back, from my experience.
But I think this is true for WoW too, I know very little about this game, but you see the same "Vanilla WoW was the best, everything else ruined it" type of players too.
I think, many people who stopped playing EQ early on, look at it as if was perfect and had no flaws, I think many who kept playing eventually saw that many mistakes were made early on.
People who played "vanilla", or people who played up until Kunark or PoP, have a very rose-tinted look when they look back, from my experience.
But I think this is true for WoW too, I know very little about this game, but you see the same "Vanilla WoW was the best, everything else ruined it" type of players too.
I think it's common to learn and grow with a project that has some semblance of artistry.
Look at any creator, composer, artist, actor and you will see that over time they learn and grow and become more adept at their craft.
But you have to also take it within the time frame it was created. Are those really mistakes or just where the team was at the time? And maybe over time they want to explore different ideas.
And sometimes those new ideas have their own issues.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I think I prefer claustrophobic and confusing dungeons.
No, my point is.
If you're going to make a group go through an indoor zone, where CC and pulling is needed...make it BIG ENOUGH...so you don't need to fall in the lava next to the zone, have to watch where you're going every 2 steps, and just give the player room.
But if you never played EQ beyond the first few expansions, which most haven't, you don't see what was wrong with EQ early on, you have never read what developers found out and improved upon. You think everything was perfect early on, it wasn't, you just need to put off your pink shades.
I hated doing this with 6 or more players:
I love space, I love tactics, I love not being in an idiotically small zone trapped like a rat, I prefer feeling powerful and like a hero in a good size dungeon.
Both zones you mention are from Kunark not vanilla.
If you only mean antonica, then I can't agree, I think the zone design early on was often terrible.
Starting cities like Freeport, Neriak, Quenos were nice, commonlands and oceans of mar was nice, even the wide planes from Karana was nice. But the actual dungeons like Guk, Solusek and nagafen, they must have designed them in a single day, you can tell they didn't even care about them.
I hated the design of Solusek, you would fall off the side in the lava and clipping effects would bug out, in some claustrophobic badly designed zone where trains would kill you without warning, the zones often lagged, they were horrendous zones.
I disagree. I think pretty much every dungeon was big with lots to explore and you needed to know your way around in them. Solosek a and b, upper and lower guk, permafrost, befallen, blackburrow, mistmoore, runnyeye, najena, etc all of these had multiple levels, use of the z axis, traps, doors with keys and more. Plus they all encouraged grouping and had a sense of actual danger that the outdoor zones just didn't capture (well besides kithicor at night).
I would take any vanilla EQ dungeon over the hallway-boss-hallway-boss syndrome that came along with the advent of Burning Crusade in WoW that pretty much everyone copied.
It's not like they couldn't make awesome dungeons like Blackrock Depths and instance them. So there is no excuse for dumbing it down to hallways with bosses.
I would agree that Kunark had better zones and Velious better still.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Comments
I loved all of the options SWG offered in terms of building a character. As well as the outfitting options (damage types, different resistances, etc..) Yet at the end of the day the game suffered because it didn't have much in the way of interesting content. You can find many who complain about this to this day. So in the end what would have been best for the game, especially when considering modern audiences.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Compare to newer mmorpg which is much more expensive, require larger team and have less complexity.
Anyways, I guess you had to have been there playing Eq to the maximum of its potential, diving into every detail and aspect of it from 1999-2005 to understand how advanced Eq was on so many levels. Those who say it is just turning on auto attack and xp grind only ever scratched the surface. And those who put wow and eq into the same category has no f.. clue what they are talking about. Owell speaking to the deaf.
Yes I played Eq recently, both p99 and progression servers, and with the rose tinted glasses off and despite its flaws.. still in 2016 eq pre GoD is the best mmorpg by far (NOT current live Eq which is shit!). Go ahead repeat your standard replies of rose tinted, living in the past, first love kind of stuff.. I still feel I can compare games from a objective point of view.. I played and loved many games pre 1999 that I don't consider those the best of that type today.. I still play new games and some are great, however none of those great ones are mmorpgs.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Early EQ zones often looked like garbage. Are there exceptions? Yes.
But dungeons like Guk and Solusek looked terrible, they were claustrophobic, by the time you found your way through them you were in the next expansion, so everyone downloaded maps.
Also, they simply looked terrible, ugly and claustrophobic.
zones looked much better later on in EQ
vanilla EQ:
EQ later on, much better:
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
That's why I typed this in the op
"Maybe it's just me but man comparing these new modern mmorpgs to a 17 year old EQ I really feel like they shouldn't just be putting Everquest to shame in the graphics department but everything else as well. Thing is most mmorpgs don't even come close to the features EQ had back in 1999."
This isn't about graphics. Everyone knows the graphics are crap compared to pretty much anything after it due to advancements in technology.
It's about the depth and variety provided.
Way to miss the point and go right to rose tinted glasses and graphics...
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/There were nicely designed zones that were fun to play in, in 1999. But the ugly random, claustrophobic and confusing dungeons of early EQ, like Guk, like Solusek, like Nagafen,....were terrible zones. They probably cost the designers a day to put together, they put no effort in them whatsoever.
There were nice zones in vanilla EQ, like CoM, Firiona and Faydark.
Edit: Links
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/zone.html?zstrat=71
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/zone.html?zstrat=98
Both zones you mention are from Kunark not vanilla.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Starting cities like Freeport, Neriak, Quenos were nice, commonlands and oceans of mar was nice, even the wide planes from Karana was nice. But the actual dungeons like Guk, Solusek and nagafen, they must have designed them in a single day, you can tell they didn't even care about them.
I hated the design of Solusek, you would fall off the side in the lava and clipping effects would bug out, in some claustrophobic badly designed zone where trains would kill you without warning, the zones often lagged, they were horrendous zones.
Well hey you edited it and got Faydark in there. /clap
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I often just edit as I write. Your response happened long after my edit.
And yes I think Faydark is pretty, again, I'm not saying all zones were bad, many were beautiful, but I hated the zone design of early dungeons.
I think I prefer claustrophobic and confusing dungeons.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
People who played "vanilla", or people who played up until Kunark or PoP, have a very rose-tinted look when they look back, from my experience.
But I think this is true for WoW too, I know very little about this game, but you see the same "Vanilla WoW was the best, everything else ruined it" type of players too.
Sunrise in Commonlands.. day-night cycle in 1999 - its all the little things combined.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Look at any creator, composer, artist, actor and you will see that over time they learn and grow and become more adept at their craft.
But you have to also take it within the time frame it was created. Are those really mistakes or just where the team was at the time? And maybe over time they want to explore different ideas.
And sometimes those new ideas have their own issues.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If you're going to make a group go through an indoor zone, where CC and pulling is needed...make it BIG ENOUGH...so you don't need to fall in the lava next to the zone, have to watch where you're going every 2 steps, and just give the player room.
But if you never played EQ beyond the first few expansions, which most haven't, you don't see what was wrong with EQ early on, you have never read what developers found out and improved upon. You think everything was perfect early on, it wasn't, you just need to put off your pink shades.
I hated doing this with 6 or more players:
I love space, I love tactics, I love not being in an idiotically small zone trapped like a rat, I prefer feeling powerful and like a hero in a good size dungeon.
These zones were so much better:
I would take any vanilla EQ dungeon over the hallway-boss-hallway-boss syndrome that came along with the advent of Burning Crusade in WoW that pretty much everyone copied.
It's not like they couldn't make awesome dungeons like Blackrock Depths and instance them. So there is no excuse for dumbing it down to hallways with bosses.
I would agree that Kunark had better zones and Velious better still.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/