@YashaX You basically need to pay for skill resets right? Normally I change my build countless times in MMOs. That means you need to pay infinite amount of money for a core part of the game. It means the game is ruined because of cash shop.
AFAIC, skill resets shouldn't even be allowed in an MMORPG in the first place. There should be consequences for making wrong decisions while choosing your skill set during your journey. If you gimp your character by making the wrong skill choice (S), you either learn to win with that character or you start over untill you get it right. That's the entire point of an MMORPG. Anyone needing a crutch mechanic like skill resets deserves to pay for it in a big way. It has no place in an MMORPG to begin with.
Well I respect your opinion, and I can understand it - it definitely adds immersion and realism and fits with the way BDO is structured. Personally I like to play more like @Eadan1, reseting my skills often and changing things around, but to claim BDO is ruined because of it and you have to spend "infinite amount of money for a core part of the game" is just beyond loony imo.
It's just a personal preference. I realize its hardcore and not for everyone. We all want to enjoy a game and have different requirements to meet that standard. Mine is I enjoy playing a game on as difficult mode as possible. FWIW, I also play with just one character. No alts, no AFK'ing, no skill resetting, no rushing to acquire Bis gear etc. I get it as it becomes available in my natural journey. Inefficient I know, but it's just how I play my MMORPGs.
Vision range, user name display disabled and pet auto loot may be considered p2w by some. As well as combat xp bonus. Having to use a pearl shop item to feed your pet is p2 have a pet which you already paid for to start with. As long as we aren't paying to get end game gear it's as tollerable as it's going to be if you don't buy anything from there.
In regards to the pet, there's easy in-game pet food to get (Just from a stable)
Always awesome to see guys who like a game try and justify it does, while using other games (they dont like) as examples of how its 'better' than them, (when it isnt)
BDO is full pay to win now. Pets alone make it so. The new pet system cannot be justified as anything other than a cash grab pay to win scenario. The excuse people give is that eventually the same pets ONLY available in the cash shop right now will be in the game for free. Well now they arent and there is nothing that says they ever will be. If pets were armor or weapons and had the same passive abilities and modifiers a lot more people would be crying foul. But since theyre pets some people give them a pass. The tears have ALWAYS been pay to win, in the most blatant form. when you can spend as much money as you have to go and rez yourself limitless times (with no penalty, and causing penalties to stack up on people you are griefing) that makes it even worse. While it ruins PvP in the first place Tears also allow people to grief people non stop and 'ruin' their characters to huge Karma losses.
This is also just the first month and more and more stuff will be coming to the cash shop you can bet your ass on that, they already have things that are most definitely pay to win, not just cosmetic or pay for 'convenience', not limited to pets, the gillie suit or tears, but some people could argue semantics with some of the other stuff, especially since they try and justify the most blatant of pay to win items as 'not as bad as (fill in game you dont like here) cash shop items.
While I am not saying its good or bad or if it will 'kill' the game, the cash shop in BDO is most definitely selling pay to win items and you can be sure it will get worse before it gets better.
With your mentality you only have one option when it comes to MMORPGs, and gaming in general.
@YashaX You basically need to pay for skill resets right? Normally I change my build countless times in MMOs. That means you need to pay infinite amount of money for a core part of the game. It means the game is ruined because of cash shop.
AFAIC, skill resets shouldn't even be allowed in an MMORPG in the first place. There should be consequences for making wrong decisions while choosing your skill set during your journey. If you gimp your character by making the wrong skill choice (S), you either learn to win with that character or you start over untill you get it right. That's the entire point of an MMORPG. Anyone needing a crutch mechanic like skill resets deserves to pay for it in a big way. It has no place in an MMORPG to begin with.
Or just add a way to unlearn skill trees using game mechanics. Like UO skills for instance. This way, you can unlearn some skills to replace them with others, but you'll have to make some efforts to achieve it.
This is acceptable. Earning a skill reset by accomplishing tasks to remediate one's mistakes is a perfectly immersive way to implement a skill reset function. Just being able to do so willy-nilly and on the fly? Big no for me. I mean, what's the purpose of a journey in decision making when at the end of it all we can just attain a winning build irrespective of the choices made all throughout the journey? May as well just skip right to the end and forget the journey.
With your mentality you only have one option when it comes to MMORPGs, and gaming in general.
QUIT NOW!
I basically have and so have many others thats why MMOs are dead. Last game I played was Archeage (yea it sucked me in) before that the last one I put any time into was Lotro and they are paying me to own that game since I have a lifetime pass but I havent played that one in over a year now. Only other MMO I played since then was ESO, and the cash shop there is less pay to win than BDO is, so the logic in this thread fails on that point alone.
I have stuck to the newer games like ARK, Life is Feudal, and RPG games like Witcher. I even go old school and play Jagged Allianes, Civs, Empire Earth.
MMOs are dead, thats why they all have cash shops because they cant make money any other way because not enough people play them. The prices in the BDO store are stupid enough for 'regular' shit, but they have to price them like that to make money off the few people stupid enough to buy that crap. But that isnt enough so they MUST sell stuff that makes it easier for people so they sell pay to win and borderline pay to win stuff because thats the way they make money. Not enough people will pay a sub anymore and then pay for expansions so they have to sell stuff to people who cant do math and end up spending more on cash shop crap than they ever would on a subscription.
Is BDO a good game? I guess? Is its cash shop less blatant than others? I suppose. Will it sell more and more pay to win items? Most definitely. Is it pay to win right now? Of course.
This whole 'lets compare my crappy choice to your shitty choice' is why we have the presidential candidates we have now, not a single one of the front runners is fit to be mayor of a town let alone president of the US. But since thats all we have someone has to get elected. So its isnt about all the good stuff my guy does its about how my guy isnt as bad as your guy. Same with MMOs it isnt about how good the game is its how it compares to the other dogshit out there that isnt fit to play in the first place.
Just because BDO (in your opinion) cash shop isnt as bad as another games pay to win cash shop doesnt mean it isnt pay to win. Someone, I think it was you even said it WAS pay to win. You lose any debate right there on that point alone.
I personally think any shop that improves a players direct fighting stats is pay to win, and I also include those games like GW2 where you can buy anything in the cash shop including BiS items with real life cash. All pay to win IMO.
I really like GW2s gem store, and I want to point out, that there are no BiS items on the cash shop. Only Armor and Weapon Skins.
However, for the sake of argument, we can say that you could spend real life money to change to in-game gold which you could then use on the games auction house. I do not think this is pay 2 win because gear in itself (stats) is not special. The term Fashion Wars 2 applies well to GW2. Exotic gear drops everywhere and its something that is not hard to get a hold off. Even for a casual player. GW2 has a tight level and gear ceiling.
There is something called Ascended Quality gear (purple) and these net about 5% advantage over the Exotic gear. This Ascended Gear can not be bought on the gem store, sold on the auction house. It can only be accuired through the games many non-tradeable currencies.
If I have a problem with the gem store (personally) it is that the way to buy the new weapons is through a RNG ticket system. You buy a box with 5-7 random items in them, and then you need a ticket, which consists of 10 scraps. That makes me not want to buy their weapon skins. The good part however, is that people who have a disposeable income can put their skins on the trading post and sell them for 50-200 gold depending on the popularity. Thats how I have gotten many cash shop items without actually paying real money for them. I just buy them from the trading post.
That is an excellent system. But it works because gold is not the defacto currency in GW2. GW2 uses other currencies. Some rewarded through playing, some through completing events, some for winning pvp/dungeons/fractals/WvW. Some are for doing guild missions. And so, through all of these, the developer puts in the BiS gear to make sure its not P2W.
But this wouldnt work in BDO. If we could buy things in the cash shop and sell them on the trading post it would be P2W. Because in Black Desert gold matters. If you can sell a Trent outfit for 5 million gold, that means you could buy a Liverto with +15. That means you literally bought yourself ahead of the curve. And gear matters in BDO. A lot.
So what I am trying to say is this; Depending on how a game is set up, even our perception of what P2W is changes.
I talked to someone yesterday who says that 10% increased leveling xp rate is p2w because higher levels in a game allows you to win 99% of the time. I don't disagree with the logic, but I disagree with the moniker. Like you, I believe P2W is absolutely buying actual items that increases your stats that give you a direct power advantage.
I can see why the ghuillie suit is p2w, but I would call it more unfair than p2w. it gives an advantage like people using 3 party software to circumvent flash grenade effects in counter strike, or an advantage like people using macro programs in games where that is not allowed.
But so many things are advantageous. So many games reward the person with the best framerate and the best ping, which means that the game is unfair to those with slow computers. And really, what is the difference between a p2w champion saying "Learn 2 get a job" in response to people who dont like p2w or someone saying the same thing referring to them to get a better computer/internet?
The very idea that things will ever be fair is futile. I've never seen a game that had balanced classes. Not completely. not to a point where there wasn't people saying that some classes needed buffs and others needed nerfs.
I think its because our very concept of justice and right and wrong and fairness and unfairness is deeply embedded in us. In my time working with children I was always horrofied seeing kids who didn't understand empathy. It's a learned behavior. I've had to deal with many kids who couldn't comprehend the abillity to put yourself in someones shoes. And in that moment of not understanding that, their sense of justice remains strong. Even very small kids have a understanding of what is right and what is wrong. my sister has something, so I should have something too.
... And yet for once a game comes out with a virtually non-p2w cash shop, which might set you back a couple hundred dollars if you absolutely have to have your name plate hidden and xp bonuses (the only real bonuses you can "buy"), and you guys are just blind to how absolutely amazing that is - especially for an inexpensive b2p game that doesn't charge for expansions.
I'm sure that Pearl Abyss is very proud that their game generates very little revenue in NA/EU other than the box price. They must have a very warm fuzzy feeling seeing so may happy gamers completely ignoring the cash shop, while they work on those free expansions...
I'm sure Daum don't mind paying their publisher rights, bandwidth costs, server hosting costs, CS staff costs, etc. every month. After all, they once got $30 from every single player. That should be enough to cover all their expenses for the next 5-10 years and leave room for a good profit !
If you really believe that the BDO cash shop will only ever sell what it's selling now, you have only yourself to blame.
With your mentality you only have one option when it comes to MMORPGs, and gaming in general.
QUIT NOW!
I basically have and so have many others thats why MMOs are dead. Last game I played was Archeage (yea it sucked me in) before that the last one I put any time into was Lotro and they are paying me to own that game since I have a lifetime pass but I havent played that one in over a year now. Only other MMO I played since then was ESO, and the cash shop there is less pay to win than BDO is, so the logic in this thread fails on that point alone.
I have stuck to the newer games like ARK, Life is Feudal, and RPG games like Witcher. I even go old school and play Jagged Allianes, Civs, Empire Earth.
MMOs are dead, thats why they all have cash shops because they cant make money any other way because not enough people play them. The prices in the BDO store are stupid enough for 'regular' shit, but they have to price them like that to make money off the few people stupid enough to buy that crap. But that isnt enough so they MUST sell stuff that makes it easier for people so they sell pay to win and borderline pay to win stuff because thats the way they make money. Not enough people will pay a sub anymore and then pay for expansions so they have to sell stuff to people who cant do math and end up spending more on cash shop crap than they ever would on a subscription.
Is BDO a good game? I guess? Is its cash shop less blatant than others? I suppose. Will it sell more and more pay to win items? Most definitely. Is it pay to win right now? Of course.
This whole 'lets compare my crappy choice to your shitty choice' is why we have the presidential candidates we have now, not a single one of the front runners is fit to be mayor of a town let alone president of the US. But since thats all we have someone has to get elected. So its isnt about all the good stuff my guy does its about how my guy isnt as bad as your guy. Same with MMOs it isnt about how good the game is its how it compares to the other dogshit out there that isnt fit to play in the first place.
Just because BDO (in your opinion) cash shop isnt as bad as another games pay to win cash shop doesnt mean it isnt pay to win. Someone, I think it was you even said it WAS pay to win. You lose any debate right there on that point alone.
Your whole post fails on the premise that anything in the BDO cash shop could be remotely considered P2W. Nothing in that CS gives a player power to win over another player. All it offers is convenience. XP enhancements are not power, they are convenience. Nothing in that CS will allow a player wearing, or using, any of those items to beat a player who doesn't make use of any of those items but plays 12 hours or more a day. If such was the case that all players where only allowed to play 2 hours a day, and some players bought those items and others did not, and as such, those players that did gained a leveling advantage as a result, then you may have a point. But the fact that some players can play the game non-stop while others are limited in their play time renders anything sold granting any sort of XP advantage void.
Even the Elion's Tears, which some argue to be P2W, are not P2W when you look at its function from an objective point of view. Another person's use of an ET does not prevent you from winning. All it does is facilitate the inevitable for the player that lost. And that is that they resurrect quicker. The fact that your defeated opponent is able to come back quicker, or avoid the loss of XP, does not nullify your win. You still beat your opponent. You won, he/she did not. How can that be considered P2W when the person is still losing and you are still winning?
Your whole post fails on the premise that anything in the BDO cash shop could be remotely considered P2W. Nothing in that CS gives a player power to win over another player. All it offers is convenience. XP enhancements are not power, they are convenience. Nothing in that CS will allow a player wearing, or using, any of those items to beat a player who doesn't make use of any of those items but plays 12 hours or more a day. If such was the case that all players where only allowed to play 2 hours a day, and some players bought those items and others did not, and as such, those players that did gained a leveling advantage as a result, then you may have a point. But the fact that some players can play the game non-stop while others are limited in their play time renders anything sold granting any sort of XP advantage void.
Even the Elion's Tears, which some argue to be P2W, are not P2W when you look at its function from an objective point of view. Another person's use of an ET does not prevent you from winning. All it does is facilitate the inevitable for the player that lost. And that is that they resurrect quicker. The fact that your defeated opponent is able to come back quicker, or avoid the loss of XP, does not nullify your win. You still beat your opponent. You won, he/she did not. How can that be considered P2W when the person is still losing and you are still winning?
All it takes is a little perspective people.
By that rationale then NOTHING is pay to win in your eyes. Semantics at its best right there.
I am sure once they start selling +20, it wouldnt surprise me if they actually started selling a +5 boost on top of that eventually its not pay to win either especially if they put the minuscule chance and more than 50 lifetimes worth of grind time necessary to get it in the game.
Like I said you cant argue with fanboys about a game they like because they dont have any rational thought behind what theyre sayig.
Plenty of objective people who love the game realize its pay to win, many have stopped playing or had to stop playing so as to stop getting greifed.
So while you might not want to recognize it plenty have and time will surely tell. But then again a lot of people still try and defend Archeage so if there isnt a consensus on whether that game is a mess then there never will be one.
The fact that there is this much discussion about if it's P2W or not makes it by default a P2W game. If it wasn't a P2W game then there would be no posts about it. So continue fooling yourself that you aren't playing a game where somebody can pay RL money to have an advantage.
Yeah. Really nice "opinion". Liked the tl;dr version much better though. About pets for example:
"Bottom Line: Pets are great, but not a necessity. Will they help you level faster and more efficiently? Absolutely. But this is not game breaking. You can still compete with anyone without a pet."
I have my opinion what is game breaking and what is not thank you and the claim that you can compete with anyone without a pet is as valid as saying that you cannot.
Yes it is just pay for convenience. How cute
You know it is not even necessary to level in a game... you can just sit and watch the scenery (just do it at a node because of level 60 pkers).
... And yet for once a game comes out with a virtually non-p2w cash shop, which might set you back a couple hundred dollars if you absolutely have to have your name plate hidden and xp bonuses (the only real bonuses you can "buy"), and you guys are just blind to how absolutely amazing that is - especially for an inexpensive b2p game that doesn't charge for expansions.
I'm sure that Pearl Abyss is very proud that their game generates very little revenue in NA/EU other than the box price. They must have a very warm fuzzy feeling seeing so may happy gamers completely ignoring the cash shop, while they work on those free expansions...
I'm sure Daum don't mind paying their publisher rights, bandwidth costs, server hosting costs, CS staff costs, etc. every month. After all, they once got $30 from every single player. That should be enough to cover all their expenses for the next 5-10 years and leave room for a good profit !
If you really believe that the BDO cash shop will only ever sell what it's selling now, you have only yourself to blame.
I don't know how well their monetization is working and neither do you. I just know that right now it is a very fair system that shows great consideration was taken to prevent any blatant p2w and I am glad to see a developer do that.
If the monetization becomes aggressively p2w I will start to complain and go and play another game, but I am not going to criticize a game for something it hasn't done and I have no proof that it will do, that would be stupid don't you think?
Your whole post fails on the premise that anything in the BDO cash shop could be remotely considered P2W. Nothing in that CS gives a player power to win over another player. All it offers is convenience. XP enhancements are not power, they are convenience. Nothing in that CS will allow a player wearing, or using, any of those items to beat a player who doesn't make use of any of those items but plays 12 hours or more a day. If such was the case that all players where only allowed to play 2 hours a day, and some players bought those items and others did not, and as such, those players that did gained a leveling advantage as a result, then you may have a point. But the fact that some players can play the game non-stop while others are limited in their play time renders anything sold granting any sort of XP advantage void.
Even the Elion's Tears, which some argue to be P2W, are not P2W when you look at its function from an objective point of view. Another person's use of an ET does not prevent you from winning. All it does is facilitate the inevitable for the player that lost. And that is that they resurrect quicker. The fact that your defeated opponent is able to come back quicker, or avoid the loss of XP, does not nullify your win. You still beat your opponent. You won, he/she did not. How can that be considered P2W when the person is still losing and you are still winning?
All it takes is a little perspective people.
By that rationale then NOTHING is pay to win in your eyes. Semantics at its best right there.
I am sure once they start selling +20, it wouldnt surprise me if they actually started selling a +5 boost on top of that eventually its not pay to win either especially if they put the minuscule chance and more than 50 lifetimes worth of grind time necessary to get it in the game.
Like I said you cant argue with fanboys about a game they like because they dont have any rational thought behind what theyre sayig.
Plenty of objective people who love the game realize its pay to win, many have stopped playing or had to stop playing so as to stop getting greifed.
So while you might not want to recognize it plenty have and time will surely tell. But then again a lot of people still try and defend Archeage so if there isnt a consensus on whether that game is a mess then there never will be one.
Nice straw man there.
Nothing you said supported anything I said as semantics. Selling anything that grants anyone +20, or +5 boost, is selling power. Read my post again and try using a bit of comprehension instead of jumping to conclusions in an attempt to justify a flawed point of view. Here I'll put it in tl;dr form for you to help you out a bit ...
P2W is allowing a player to buy items of power from a cash shop that is unattainable by a player playing the game. XP boosts are items of convenience. They do not grant you power to win, they grant you the ability to level faster. I can buy tons of items from the CS that grant me XP boosts and that still wouldn't help me if I only play one hour a day and you play 10 hours a day. That is fact.
Now if I was able to buy an item from the CS that granted me the power to nuke half your HP away, irregardless of how much time I had to play, and it was an item that you could not attain in the game, that would be considered P2W.
If you can't understand that simple concept, then there is really not much I can do for you. I'm just trying to get you to the point that you will get over your pettiness and enjoy the game. If you insist on putting up these artificial barriers that prevent you from enjoying a game, that's your loss. I'll just let you continue wallowing in your misery.
Nothing you said supported anything I said as semantics. Selling anything that grants anyone +20, or +5 boost, is selling power. Read my post again and try using a bit of comprehension instead of jumping to conclusions in an attempt to justify a flawed point of view. Here I'll put it in tl;dr form for you to help you out a bit ...
P2W is allowing a player to buy items of power from a cash shop that is unattainable by a player playing the game. XP boosts are items of convenience. They do not grant you power to win, they grant you the ability to level faster. I can buy tons of items from the CS that grant me XP boosts and that still wouldn't help me if I only play one hour a day and you play 10 hours a day. That is fact.
Now if I was able to buy an item from the CS that granted me the power to nuke half your HP away, irregardless of how much time I had to play, and it was an item that you could not attain in the game, that would be considered P2W.
If you can't understand that simple concept, then there is really not much I can do for you. I'm just trying to get you to the point that you will get over your pettiness and enjoy the game. If you insist on putting up these artificial barriers that prevent you from enjoying a game, that's your loss. I'll just let you continue wallowing in your misery.
Breed able pets, that countermands everything you said right there. The end.
If you have to pay about 30 dollars on top of the base 30 dollars in order to win I'm honestly cool with that. Its not like we're having to drop 4k dollars for top tier armor like in PWI or Forsaken World in order to compete. I don't really see it as a slippery slope issue either, buying the treant suit doesn't tell Daum that you'd be willing to buy stones in the shop or something like that, and stones have a way bigger impact on PVP anyway.
But it won't stop, they will always add something as time goes that you need to buy to keep up. Back in the day with a sub everyone was on equal footing and all you had to do was play to keep up. Sad really...
Nothing you said supported anything I said as semantics. Selling anything that grants anyone +20, or +5 boost, is selling power. Read my post again and try using a bit of comprehension instead of jumping to conclusions in an attempt to justify a flawed point of view. Here I'll put it in tl;dr form for you to help you out a bit ...
P2W is allowing a player to buy items of power from a cash shop that is unattainable by a player playing the game. XP boosts are items of convenience. They do not grant you power to win, they grant you the ability to level faster. I can buy tons of items from the CS that grant me XP boosts and that still wouldn't help me if I only play one hour a day and you play 10 hours a day. That is fact.
Now if I was able to buy an item from the CS that granted me the power to nuke half your HP away, irregardless of how much time I had to play, and it was an item that you could not attain in the game, that would be considered P2W.
If you can't understand that simple concept, then there is really not much I can do for you. I'm just trying to get you to the point that you will get over your pettiness and enjoy the game. If you insist on putting up these artificial barriers that prevent you from enjoying a game, that's your loss. I'll just let you continue wallowing in your misery.
Breed able pets, that countermands everything you said right there. The end.
Yes, breedable pets that grants a player a +1 gathering or fishing, a max of 7% in combat XP, recovery, or reduction in death penalty. Big Whoop!
If you allow something as minimal as those numbers keep you from playing and enjoying a game then there is no need to worry about a P2W CS, since you already do a pretty good job of mentality defeating yourself.
Don't need a long breakdown like that to know that Treant Suit gives you a distinct advantage, and it's only available in the shop. Pets are more arguable but most will agree they're pretty damn important for looting.
NO NO NO. Now they added a craftable item that you can make to counter the suit now! Just have to target the player in the suit and cast it. err... well if you are still alive after the thing casts then you're good to go for 5 minutes.
So target someone who can not be targeted and then use an item that makes him vulnerable to target for a few minutes? Ohh sounds like very nice system!!! Maybe they should sell another item in cash shop that counters this crafted items for profit maximization!!
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Nothing you said supported anything I said as semantics. Selling anything that grants anyone +20, or +5 boost, is selling power. Read my post again and try using a bit of comprehension instead of jumping to conclusions in an attempt to justify a flawed point of view. Here I'll put it in tl;dr form for you to help you out a bit ...
P2W is allowing a player to buy items of power from a cash shop that is unattainable by a player playing the game. XP boosts are items of convenience. They do not grant you power to win, they grant you the ability to level faster. I can buy tons of items from the CS that grant me XP boosts and that still wouldn't help me if I only play one hour a day and you play 10 hours a day. That is fact.
Now if I was able to buy an item from the CS that granted me the power to nuke half your HP away, irregardless of how much time I had to play, and it was an item that you could not attain in the game, that would be considered P2W.
If you can't understand that simple concept, then there is really not much I can do for you. I'm just trying to get you to the point that you will get over your pettiness and enjoy the game. If you insist on putting up these artificial barriers that prevent you from enjoying a game, that's your loss. I'll just let you continue wallowing in your misery.
Breed able pets, that countermands everything you said right there. The end.
Yes, breedable pets that grants a player a +1 gathering or fishing, a max of 7% in combat XP, recovery, or reduction in death penalty. Big Whoop!
If you allow something as minimal as those numbers keep you from playing and enjoying a game then there is no need to worry about a P2W CS, since you already do a pretty good job of mentality defeating yourself.
they offer more than that and you know it. Not to mention the whole RNG aspect where most pets lose base passives and revert to less desirable modifiers all in an attempt to sucker people into buying as many pets as it takes to get the 'perfect' one, which some people (after hundreds of dollars) still havent gotten.
The fact that there is this much discussion about if it's P2W or not makes it by default a P2W game. If it wasn't a P2W game then there would be no posts about it. So continue fooling yourself that you aren't playing a game where somebody can pay RL money to have an advantage.
How do you justify this logic? Do you apply this logic to other areas in life?
The fact that there is this much discussion about if it's P2W or not makes it by default a P2W game. If it wasn't a P2W game then there would be no posts about it. So continue fooling yourself that you aren't playing a game where somebody can pay RL money to have an advantage.
How do you justify this logic? Do you apply this logic to other areas in life?
It's false logic. Because "P2W" is a touchy subject (seemingly) anything that even remotely could be considered as such MUST be also. It's a fallacy of false cause.
Nothing you said supported anything I said as semantics. Selling anything that grants anyone +20, or +5 boost, is selling power. Read my post again and try using a bit of comprehension instead of jumping to conclusions in an attempt to justify a flawed point of view. Here I'll put it in tl;dr form for you to help you out a bit ...
P2W is allowing a player to buy items of power from a cash shop that is unattainable by a player playing the game. XP boosts are items of convenience. They do not grant you power to win, they grant you the ability to level faster. I can buy tons of items from the CS that grant me XP boosts and that still wouldn't help me if I only play one hour a day and you play 10 hours a day. That is fact.
Now if I was able to buy an item from the CS that granted me the power to nuke half your HP away, irregardless of how much time I had to play, and it was an item that you could not attain in the game, that would be considered P2W.
If you can't understand that simple concept, then there is really not much I can do for you. I'm just trying to get you to the point that you will get over your pettiness and enjoy the game. If you insist on putting up these artificial barriers that prevent you from enjoying a game, that's your loss. I'll just let you continue wallowing in your misery.
Breed able pets, that countermands everything you said right there. The end.
Yes, breedable pets that grants a player a +1 gathering or fishing, a max of 7% in combat XP, recovery, or reduction in death penalty. Big Whoop!
If you allow something as minimal as those numbers keep you from playing and enjoying a game then there is no need to worry about a P2W CS, since you already do a pretty good job of mentality defeating yourself.
they offer more than that and you know it. Not to mention the whole RNG aspect where most pets lose base passives and revert to less desirable modifiers all in an attempt to sucker people into buying as many pets as it takes to get the 'perfect' one, which some people (after hundreds of dollars) still havent gotten.
Why not just post exactly what it is that they offer instead of blanket vague comments?
In the event you are not aware of it, no one forces you to buy a pet. Not buying one effectively relieves you from having to deal with their whole RNG nature thereby rendering anything in your post about them null and void. They are only an item of convenience and are not a necessity. You seem to be stuck on this pet thing. The game offers items of convenience for those that want them. Those that readily buy them, enjoy them for what they are and don't consider themselves suckers. If you fall into the temptation of buying one or more of these pets and subject yourself to that whole process for the sole purpose of trying to gain an advantage over another, then by your own words it is you who is the sucker, don't blame the game.
With all due respect, partner, I'm done trying to help you get over your pettiness. Play if you want, or don't. I'm ok either way. Good luck finding that perfect MMORPG that lets you enjoy AAA quality game play features for free.
The fact that there is this much discussion about if it's P2W or not makes it by default a P2W game. If it wasn't a P2W game then there would be no posts about it. So continue fooling yourself that you aren't playing a game where somebody can pay RL money to have an advantage.
I'm sure that Pearl Abyss is very proud that their game generates very little revenue in NA/EU other than the box price. They must have a very warm fuzzy feeling seeing so may happy gamers completely ignoring the cash shop, while they work on those free expansions...
I'm sure Daum don't mind paying their publisher rights, bandwidth costs, server hosting costs, CS staff costs, etc. every month. After all, they once got $30 from every single player. That should be enough to cover all their expenses for the next 5-10 years and leave room for a good profit !
If you really believe that the BDO cash shop will only ever sell what it's selling now, you have only yourself to blame.
I don't know how well their monetization is working and neither do you. I just know that right now it is a very fair system that shows great consideration was taken to prevent any blatant p2w and I am glad to see a developer do that.
If the monetization becomes aggressively p2w I will start to complain and go and play another game, but I am not going to criticize a game for something it hasn't done and I have no proof that it will do, that would be stupid don't you think?
"While the game is "buy to play," many users are still purchasing game pass. Furthermore, even though cash items are relatively expensive, we are maintaining large revenue and we predict that current trend will last until end of this year."
Things to take away from this:
1. BDO made a good revenue in the west despite being Buy to Play.
2. Daum fully expects that will last until the end of this year.
3. ???
4. Profit!
(My own speculation, Insert into #3: "Daum switches the game from B2P to F2P with P2W cash shop soon after the end of this year.")
Although as you stated, that's just "what if" for the future rather than "What's going on right now."
Side note: I love how blatantly honest F2P game companies can be. R2Games can have a huge presentation saying "Yea, we don't care about the long term health of our games as long as we make money" and slap it into the public's face, almost as if they're saying "We know you don't like it but you're still going to pay us." and Daum's doing the same thing "Yea, our cash shop items are expensive but you're still giving us your money!" It's hilarious and refreshing.
they offer more than that and you know it. Not to mention the whole RNG aspect where most pets lose base passives and revert to less desirable modifiers all in an attempt to sucker people into buying as many pets as it takes to get the 'perfect' one, which some people (after hundreds of dollars) still havent gotten.
3 pets, maxed for this boost, offer upto 9% exp boost max at any one time. WHOOPEE DOO.
The fact that there is this much discussion about if it's P2W or not makes it by default a P2W game. If it wasn't a P2W game then there would be no posts about it. So continue fooling yourself that you aren't playing a game where somebody can pay RL money to have an advantage.
How do you justify this logic? Do you apply this logic to other areas in life?
Yes, absolutely. Where there is smoke, there is fire. If it looks like shit and smells like shit, then it's shit. If you are walking down an alley and a group of Thugs are coming then walk the other way, it's called common sense.
If there is thread after thread arguing over if a game is P2W or not then it's common sense to assume that it is P2W and you just have a group of fanbois trying to justify that it is not. For games that are clearly not P2W you do not see the same level of argument. So you can continue to waste time and your money arguing that a game that you got hooked on like crack will end costing you greatly to succeed in, or you can just assume what many are saying and that it's P2W and should be avoided.. that is of course unless you like paying money for accomplishments.
Comments
QUIT NOW!
This is acceptable. Earning a skill reset by accomplishing tasks to remediate one's mistakes is a perfectly immersive way to implement a skill reset function. Just being able to do so willy-nilly and on the fly? Big no for me. I mean, what's the purpose of a journey in decision making when at the end of it all we can just attain a winning build irrespective of the choices made all throughout the journey? May as well just skip right to the end and forget the journey.
I have stuck to the newer games like ARK, Life is Feudal, and RPG games like Witcher. I even go old school and play Jagged Allianes, Civs, Empire Earth.
MMOs are dead, thats why they all have cash shops because they cant make money any other way because not enough people play them. The prices in the BDO store are stupid enough for 'regular' shit, but they have to price them like that to make money off the few people stupid enough to buy that crap. But that isnt enough so they MUST sell stuff that makes it easier for people so they sell pay to win and borderline pay to win stuff because thats the way they make money. Not enough people will pay a sub anymore and then pay for expansions so they have to sell stuff to people who cant do math and end up spending more on cash shop crap than they ever would on a subscription.
Is BDO a good game? I guess? Is its cash shop less blatant than others? I suppose. Will it sell more and more pay to win items? Most definitely. Is it pay to win right now? Of course.
This whole 'lets compare my crappy choice to your shitty choice' is why we have the presidential candidates we have now, not a single one of the front runners is fit to be mayor of a town let alone president of the US. But since thats all we have someone has to get elected. So its isnt about all the good stuff my guy does its about how my guy isnt as bad as your guy. Same with MMOs it isnt about how good the game is its how it compares to the other dogshit out there that isnt fit to play in the first place.
Just because BDO (in your opinion) cash shop isnt as bad as another games pay to win cash shop doesnt mean it isnt pay to win. Someone, I think it was you even said it WAS pay to win. You lose any debate right there on that point alone.
However, for the sake of argument, we can say that you could spend real life money to change to in-game gold which you could then use on the games auction house.
I do not think this is pay 2 win because gear in itself (stats) is not special. The term Fashion Wars 2 applies well to GW2. Exotic gear drops everywhere and its something that is not hard to get a hold off. Even for a casual player. GW2 has a tight level and gear ceiling.
There is something called Ascended Quality gear (purple) and these net about 5% advantage over the Exotic gear. This Ascended Gear can not be bought on the gem store, sold on the auction house. It can only be accuired through the games many non-tradeable currencies.
If I have a problem with the gem store (personally) it is that the way to buy the new weapons is through a RNG ticket system. You buy a box with 5-7 random items in them, and then you need a ticket, which consists of 10 scraps. That makes me not want to buy their weapon skins.
The good part however, is that people who have a disposeable income can put their skins on the trading post and sell them for 50-200 gold depending on the popularity. Thats how I have gotten many cash shop items without actually paying real money for them. I just buy them from the trading post.
That is an excellent system. But it works because gold is not the defacto currency in GW2. GW2 uses other currencies. Some rewarded through playing, some through completing events, some for winning pvp/dungeons/fractals/WvW. Some are for doing guild missions. And so, through all of these, the developer puts in the BiS gear to make sure its not P2W.
But this wouldnt work in BDO. If we could buy things in the cash shop and sell them on the trading post it would be P2W. Because in Black Desert gold matters. If you can sell a Trent outfit for 5 million gold, that means you could buy a Liverto with +15. That means you literally bought yourself ahead of the curve. And gear matters in BDO. A lot.
So what I am trying to say is this; Depending on how a game is set up, even our perception of what P2W is changes.
I talked to someone yesterday who says that 10% increased leveling xp rate is p2w because higher levels in a game allows you to win 99% of the time.
I don't disagree with the logic, but I disagree with the moniker. Like you, I believe P2W is absolutely buying actual items that increases your stats that give you a direct power advantage.
I can see why the ghuillie suit is p2w, but I would call it more unfair than p2w. it gives an advantage like people using 3 party software to circumvent flash grenade effects in counter strike, or an advantage like people using macro programs in games where that is not allowed.
But so many things are advantageous. So many games reward the person with the best framerate and the best ping, which means that the game is unfair to those with slow computers. And really, what is the difference between a p2w champion saying "Learn 2 get a job" in response to people who dont like p2w or someone saying the same thing referring to them to get a better computer/internet?
The very idea that things will ever be fair is futile. I've never seen a game that had balanced classes. Not completely. not to a point where there wasn't people saying that some classes needed buffs and others needed nerfs.
I think its because our very concept of justice and right and wrong and fairness and unfairness is deeply embedded in us.
In my time working with children I was always horrofied seeing kids who didn't understand empathy. It's a learned behavior. I've had to deal with many kids who couldn't comprehend the abillity to put yourself in someones shoes. And in that moment of not understanding that, their sense of justice remains strong. Even very small kids have a understanding of what is right and what is wrong. my sister has something, so I should have something too.
I'm sure Daum don't mind paying their publisher rights, bandwidth costs, server hosting costs, CS staff costs, etc. every month. After all, they once got $30 from every single player. That should be enough to cover all their expenses for the next 5-10 years and leave room for a good profit !
If you really believe that the BDO cash shop will only ever sell what it's selling now, you have only yourself to blame.
Your whole post fails on the premise that anything in the BDO cash shop could be remotely considered P2W. Nothing in that CS gives a player power to win over another player. All it offers is convenience. XP enhancements are not power, they are convenience. Nothing in that CS will allow a player wearing, or using, any of those items to beat a player who doesn't make use of any of those items but plays 12 hours or more a day. If such was the case that all players where only allowed to play 2 hours a day, and some players bought those items and others did not, and as such, those players that did gained a leveling advantage as a result, then you may have a point. But the fact that some players can play the game non-stop while others are limited in their play time renders anything sold granting any sort of XP advantage void.
Even the Elion's Tears, which some argue to be P2W, are not P2W when you look at its function from an objective point of view. Another person's use of an ET does not prevent you from winning. All it does is facilitate the inevitable for the player that lost. And that is that they resurrect quicker. The fact that your defeated opponent is able to come back quicker, or avoid the loss of XP, does not nullify your win. You still beat your opponent. You won, he/she did not. How can that be considered P2W when the person is still losing and you are still winning?
All it takes is a little perspective people.
I am sure once they start selling +20, it wouldnt surprise me if they actually started selling a +5 boost on top of that eventually its not pay to win either especially if they put the minuscule chance and more than 50 lifetimes worth of grind time necessary to get it in the game.
Like I said you cant argue with fanboys about a game they like because they dont have any rational thought behind what theyre sayig.
Plenty of objective people who love the game realize its pay to win, many have stopped playing or had to stop playing so as to stop getting greifed.
So while you might not want to recognize it plenty have and time will surely tell. But then again a lot of people still try and defend Archeage so if there isnt a consensus on whether that game is a mess then there never will be one.
"Bottom Line: Pets are great, but not a necessity. Will they help you level faster and more efficiently? Absolutely. But this is not game breaking. You can still compete with anyone without a pet."
I have my opinion what is game breaking and what is not thank you and the claim that you can compete with anyone without a pet is as valid as saying that you cannot.
Yes it is just pay for convenience. How cute
You know it is not even necessary to level in a game... you can just sit and watch the scenery (just do it at a node because of level 60 pkers).
If the monetization becomes aggressively p2w I will start to complain and go and play another game, but I am not going to criticize a game for something it hasn't done and I have no proof that it will do, that would be stupid don't you think?
Nice straw man there.
Nothing you said supported anything I said as semantics. Selling anything that grants anyone +20, or +5 boost, is selling power. Read my post again and try using a bit of comprehension instead of jumping to conclusions in an attempt to justify a flawed point of view. Here I'll put it in tl;dr form for you to help you out a bit ...
P2W is allowing a player to buy items of power from a cash shop that is unattainable by a player playing the game. XP boosts are items of convenience. They do not grant you power to win, they grant you the ability to level faster. I can buy tons of items from the CS that grant me XP boosts and that still wouldn't help me if I only play one hour a day and you play 10 hours a day. That is fact.
Now if I was able to buy an item from the CS that granted me the power to nuke half your HP away, irregardless of how much time I had to play, and it was an item that you could not attain in the game, that would be considered P2W.
If you can't understand that simple concept, then there is really not much I can do for you. I'm just trying to get you to the point that you will get over your pettiness and enjoy the game. If you insist on putting up these artificial barriers that prevent you from enjoying a game, that's your loss. I'll just let you continue wallowing in your misery.
Yes, breedable pets that grants a player a +1 gathering or fishing, a max of 7% in combat XP, recovery, or reduction in death penalty. Big Whoop!
If you allow something as minimal as those numbers keep you from playing and enjoying a game then there is no need to worry about a P2W CS, since you already do a pretty good job of mentality defeating yourself.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Why not just post exactly what it is that they offer instead of blanket vague comments?
In the event you are not aware of it, no one forces you to buy a pet. Not buying one effectively relieves you from having to deal with their whole RNG nature thereby rendering anything in your post about them null and void. They are only an item of convenience and are not a necessity. You seem to be stuck on this pet thing. The game offers items of convenience for those that want them. Those that readily buy them, enjoy them for what they are and don't consider themselves suckers. If you fall into the temptation of buying one or more of these pets and subject yourself to that whole process for the sole purpose of trying to gain an advantage over another, then by your own words it is you who is the sucker, don't blame the game.
With all due respect, partner, I'm done trying to help you get over your pettiness. Play if you want, or don't. I'm ok either way. Good luck finding that perfect MMORPG that lets you enjoy AAA quality game play features for free.
http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/60090-future-content-updates-interview-for-invencokr/
"While the game is "buy to play," many users are still purchasing game pass. Furthermore, even though cash items are relatively expensive, we are maintaining large revenue and we predict that current trend will last until end of this year."
Things to take away from this:
1. BDO made a good revenue in the west despite being Buy to Play.
2. Daum fully expects that will last until the end of this year.
3. ???
4. Profit!
(My own speculation, Insert into #3: "Daum switches the game from B2P to F2P with P2W cash shop soon after the end of this year.")
Although as you stated, that's just "what if" for the future rather than "What's going on right now."
Side note: I love how blatantly honest F2P game companies can be. R2Games can have a huge presentation saying "Yea, we don't care about the long term health of our games as long as we make money" and slap it into the public's face, almost as if they're saying "We know you don't like it but you're still going to pay us." and Daum's doing the same thing "Yea, our cash shop items are expensive but you're still giving us your money!" It's hilarious and refreshing.
That's pay to win? Jesus guys, get a grip.
If there is thread after thread arguing over if a game is P2W or not then it's common sense to assume that it is P2W and you just have a group of fanbois trying to justify that it is not. For games that are clearly not P2W you do not see the same level of argument. So you can continue to waste time and your money arguing that a game that you got hooked on like crack will end costing you greatly to succeed in, or you can just assume what many are saying and that it's P2W and should be avoided.. that is of course unless you like paying money for accomplishments.