Will I be able to daydream again ?

delete5230

I know what your thinking !.......Theirs Dave over in the corner at work with his head in the clouds

No not really, I learned to daydream yet be responsive.  In fact my work is complicated, and with a little training I could do both. 

It's been years since I went off in never never land thinking about the mmo at hand when out and about.  This in it's own little way was fun.

I assumed we would have one mmo after another where you would be able to THINK OFF LINE !......I was simply thinking, mmos can only get better with new technology with the sky being the only limit......Was I ever wrong, never assume !!!....Easy, and cash shops is where the technology went.....This blew me away.   Never seen that coming !

Anyway, I'm sorry but I have to use Vanilla World of Warcraft for some of my examples:

My Rogue !.....Do I dual weld swards ( the smarter thing to do ) ?......... or do I play sneaky ( more fun ) ?

Scarlet Monastery !.....Do I spend my entire Saturday with a group doing all four parts, or do I just solo around a few hours in the morning before everyone wakes up ? 

Vanguard:

Khergor's End......My favorite dungeon.  Starts off hard, gets imposable.  Never could finish it !.....Should I get a group of higher level players and finish it ? 

What happened to mmo's ?

XAleX360

DMKano said:

Each person can daydream all they want - other people have no control over this.

The hard reality of what's possible to deliver in a MMOs today however is a different thing entirely.

The problem is players who've played UO, EQ1, AC, DAoC and AO, SWG and those early games - they *assumed* that future games would be a leaps and bounds better in every way - in terms of immersion, gameplay depth, graphics, everything.

The assumption was simply incorrect.


Heck I daydreamed back in 1998-2002 that in 15 years MMOs would be like the Matrix movies

Agreed. I had high hopes for this genre, but it's going badly even if pretty much every other genre is actually improving in every way, which makes it even more sad.

svann

While waiting on pantheon you should try project gorgon.  It has many skills options to try.  These are like classes but you can switch from one to another without reroll.  So this gives you a lot to think about deciding which 2 'classes' you want to stay with.  The dungeons are sometimes very deep and sometimes smaller.  Its a good start to an mmo.  It is still alpha though, and may never make it to actual release.  But I think from your wish list it might be something you would like to see.

Hrimnir

@DMKano Honestly, I would be perfectly happy if it was just a "reskinned" EQ.  What I mean by that is same mechanics, etc, just new world, new models, graphics, etc.

That being said, I would obviously prefer updated and more "modern" gameplay systems, etc.  However, at this point I would give my left nut to play anything that even resembles EQ (or hell, even vanilla WOW, which I hated at the time, but right now seems like a fantastic game) over literally anything that exists in the market currently.

goboygo

DMKano said:

Each person can daydream all they want - other people have no control over this.

The hard reality of what's possible to deliver in a MMOs today however is a different thing entirely.

The problem is players who've played UO, EQ1, AC, DAoC and AO, SWG and those early games - they *assumed* that future games would be a leaps and bounds better in every way - in terms of immersion, gameplay depth, graphics, everything.

The assumption was simply incorrect.


Heck I daydreamed back in 1998-2002 that in 15 years MMOs would be like the Matrix movies

Good post.  MMO's took a left turn some say for the better some say they left behind everything that made it a living breathing world, I tend to agree with that latter.  MMO's are still fun and I play the hell out of them but the core design has progressed in the direction of accessibility over exploration, the unknown, and open world contention. 

Dullahan

Hrimnir said:

@DMKano Honestly, I would be perfectly happy if it was just a "reskinned" EQ.  What I mean by that is same mechanics, etc, just new world, new models, graphics, etc.

That being said, I would obviously prefer updated and more "modern" gameplay systems, etc.  However, at this point I would give my left nut to play anything that even resembles EQ (or hell, even vanilla WOW, which I hated at the time, but right now seems like a fantastic game) over literally anything that exists in the market currently.

I'd take vanilla WoW right now with big sprawling dungeons without instancing. Tho I guess that is basically EQ.

Distopia

XAleX360 said:

DMKano said:

Each person can daydream all they want - other people have no control over this.

The hard reality of what's possible to deliver in a MMOs today however is a different thing entirely.

The problem is players who've played UO, EQ1, AC, DAoC and AO, SWG and those early games - they *assumed* that future games would be a leaps and bounds better in every way - in terms of immersion, gameplay depth, graphics, everything.

The assumption was simply incorrect.


Heck I daydreamed back in 1998-2002 that in 15 years MMOs would be like the Matrix movies

Agreed. I had high hopes for this genre, but it's going badly even if pretty much every other genre is actually improving in every way, which makes it even more sad.

Well think about how long the designs MMORPGs use now were in play before the genre even took shape. Considering that, not to mention how long it took MMOs to incorporate more than text dialogue, and mobs that stand around waiting to be killed. It's really not all that surprising. . 

Hrimnir

Dullahan said:

Hrimnir said:

@DMKano Honestly, I would be perfectly happy if it was just a "reskinned" EQ.  What I mean by that is same mechanics, etc, just new world, new models, graphics, etc.

That being said, I would obviously prefer updated and more "modern" gameplay systems, etc.  However, at this point I would give my left nut to play anything that even resembles EQ (or hell, even vanilla WOW, which I hated at the time, but right now seems like a fantastic game) over literally anything that exists in the market currently.

I'd take vanilla WoW right now with big sprawling dungeons without instancing. Tho I guess that is basically EQ.

I don't know, the thought of quest hub bouncing again literally makes me want to slather my nuts in honey and tea bag a bee hive.

Loke666

Daydreaming at work? Well, that depends a bit on what you work with but usually it is no problem. I listen to audiobooks at work, I'm a CNC technician (but I skip the book when I code, uses the same part of the brain, otherwise I have zero problem with it, I work just as good and fast with part of my brain listening to a book as not, easy to train).

That you don't daydream over more modern games might of course be because the later games just don't work for you, but it might also be something with you that have changed. Hard to say really unless you start again with a new game.

d_20

goboygo said:

Good post.  MMO's took a left turn some say for the better some say they left behind everything that made it a living breathing world, I tend to agree with that latter.  MMO's are still fun and I play the hell out of them but the core design has progressed in the direction of accessibility over exploration, the unknown, and open world contention. 

Sadly, I haven't played a fun game with open world contention. What happened was that eventually the "elite" players banded together in clans and alliance and finally totally had the server on lockdown. There was no multi-alliance conflict. Then the population shriveled up and the game pretty much died.

Some games tried to get around this with enforced factions, but those limit player freedom. So what can be done?

Has there been a game where open world contention has remained constant and changing? I guess EVE has been around for a while on that basis. I haven't played it, but since it's done so well, I assume it has been working.

Any other games?

Dullahan

Hrimnir said:

Dullahan said:

Hrimnir said:

@DMKano Honestly, I would be perfectly happy if it was just a "reskinned" EQ.  What I mean by that is same mechanics, etc, just new world, new models, graphics, etc.

That being said, I would obviously prefer updated and more "modern" gameplay systems, etc.  However, at this point I would give my left nut to play anything that even resembles EQ (or hell, even vanilla WOW, which I hated at the time, but right now seems like a fantastic game) over literally anything that exists in the market currently.

I'd take vanilla WoW right now with big sprawling dungeons without instancing. Tho I guess that is basically EQ.

I don't know, the thought of quest hub bouncing again literally makes me want to slather my nuts in honey and tea bag a bee hive.

True. OK, vanilla wow minus instancing AND quest hubs but with big sprawling dungeons.

Curt2013

Hrimnir said:

@DMKano Honestly, I would be perfectly happy if it was just a "reskinned" EQ.  What I mean by that is same mechanics, etc, just new world, new models, graphics, etc.

That being said, I would obviously prefer updated and more "modern" gameplay systems, etc.  However, at this point I would give my left nut to play anything that even resembles EQ (or hell, even vanilla WOW, which I hated at the time, but right now seems like a fantastic game) over literally anything that exists in the market currently.

Speaking of Wow there's big hype of a new server popping up providing a vanilla experience not sure i can speak of this on here since its a private server so I won't say anymore.

Syanis

I think one of the issues we ran into was in old days making games wasn't about big $$$ but some computer nerds who wanted to make a cool fun game and would be happy with a few bucks now and then and knowing fellow computer nerds enjoyed it. It slowly grew away from being a computer nerd thing into a bigger crowd and those computer nerds started thinking they could make something really big and impressive such as a very immersive world. Well those nerds tried and succeeded but succeeded far more then they dreamed of. Those computer nerds made some pretty good money out of their fun. Next thing some business's decided to recruit some of these nerds to make something but killed off the fun amazing factor for quick cash because they were straight about the money instead of just doing something way cool and money was a distant extra. Eventually those computer nerds move on and were replaced solely by programmers and those who just grind out crap for a boss who is all about money and no coolness left in.

Of course they try and play that they are still nerdy gamers wanting to make something awesome but in truth its just about $$$ and that odd nerd they have quickly burns out because those above trash every idea that doesn't look like will make quick easy money.

No offense to said *nerds* as I was considered one also. Just back in the day when it got started we were the computer nerds as they called us but it wasn't about making money but a really cool idea for fun and just hoping it payed the bills.

Dullahan

Syanis said:

I think one of the issues we ran into was in old days making games wasn't about big $$$ but some computer nerds who wanted to make a cool fun game and would be happy with a few bucks now and then and knowing fellow computer nerds enjoyed it. It slowly grew away from being a computer nerd thing into a bigger crowd and those computer nerds started thinking they could make something really big and impressive such as a very immersive world. Well those nerds tried and succeeded but succeeded far more then they dreamed of. Those computer nerds made some pretty good money out of their fun. Next thing some business's decided to recruit some of these nerds to make something but killed off the fun amazing factor for quick cash because they were straight about the money instead of just doing something way cool and money was a distant extra. Eventually those computer nerds move on and were replaced solely by programmers and those who just grind out crap for a boss who is all about money and no coolness left in.

Of course they try and play that they are still nerdy gamers wanting to make something awesome but in truth its just about $$$ and that odd nerd they have quickly burns out because those above trash every idea that doesn't look like will make quick easy money.

No offense to said *nerds* as I was considered one also. Just back in the day when it got started we were the computer nerds as they called us but it wasn't about making money but a really cool idea for fun and just hoping it payed the bills.

I'd say that is exactly what has taken place.

lahnmir

XAleX360 said:

DMKano said:

Each person can daydream all they want - other people have no control over this.

The hard reality of what's possible to deliver in a MMOs today however is a different thing entirely.

The problem is players who've played UO, EQ1, AC, DAoC and AO, SWG and those early games - they *assumed* that future games would be a leaps and bounds better in every way - in terms of immersion, gameplay depth, graphics, everything.

The assumption was simply incorrect.


Heck I daydreamed back in 1998-2002 that in 15 years MMOs would be like the Matrix movies

Agreed. I had high hopes for this genre, but it's going badly even if pretty much every other genre is actually improving in every way, which makes it even more sad.

Out of interest, what genres are actually improving? Strategy games, rpgs, shooters, beat em ups? Because all the genres I just mentioned seem to have been in decline quality wise, for me at least (with the exception of a few specific games ofc).

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Hawkaya399

delete5230 said:

*snip*

It's been years since I went off in never never land thinking about the mmo at hand when out and about.  This in it's own little way was fun.

I assumed we would have one mmo after another where you would be able to THINK OFF LINE !......I was simply thinking, mmos can only get better with new technology with the sky being the only limit......Was I ever wrong, never assume !!!....Easy, and cash shops is where the technology went.....This blew me away.   Never seen that coming !

*snip*

(snipped your quote, don't take it personally--it's not personal)

Hmm. You mean, you think newer MMO's don't make you think about what you'll do in them when you're not playing them? Me personally, I think people still do that.

But maybe you're right. I just haven't played enough modern mainstream MMO's to know for sure. The newest MMO's I've played are DDO, EQ2, Entropia Universe and Wurm Online. Most of those aren't mainstream and aren't really new either. So I can't address new ones very well. I still have opinions about them, since I get the general impression they're trying to be everything for everyone and while succeeding at it for most, not succeding for all.

I will add something about manuals and simulations. I used to play a lot of simulations when I was growing up. They had extensive manuals. In fact, every game in those days had a nice glossy manual to read. In simulations it was more important to read hte manual, but it was important in any game. Nowadays, it's harder to find manuals like that. Games are meant to be played right away. And the manuals you do find are electronic or otherwise you have to print them if you want to read them casually while offline. My point is to say many games have done away with needing a manual by either simplifying the gameplay or making the game into tutorial, easing you into it. I think that can have both good and bad efects, especially if game makers are paranoid.

Hawkaya399

DMKano said:

Each person can daydream all they want - other people have no control over this.

The hard reality of what's possible to deliver in a MMOs today however is a different thing entirely.

The problem is players who've played UO, EQ1, AC, DAoC and AO, SWG and those early games - they *assumed* that future games would be a leaps and bounds better in every way - in terms of immersion, gameplay depth, graphics, everything.

The assumption was simply incorrect.


Heck I daydreamed back in 1998-2002 that in 15 years MMOs would be like the Matrix movies

Well Wurm Online was leaps and bounds better than UO and EQ--for me--in some ways. The impression was also AT LEAST equal. I was introduced to i in 2012. The thing that made it so incredible was the sandbox--the freedom to do whatever you wanted. The innovation happened in asking (and answering) "How do I make a sandbox MMO?" The problem now isn't so much the techincal part, but the fact sandbox MMO's offer so much freedom it can be a problem when players are living close to each other. Freedom can be abused and players can and will abuse each other. Players will quit playing because of things others do. Sometimes it's not intentional OF COURESE(!). THAT'S the next challenge for sandbox MMO's--and quite a foreseeable one. Because it could mean the difference between having freedoms to change the world and NOT. If there're too few freedoms it's not a sandbox anymore! And if it's just a single player or instanced sandbox, it's not a SHARED sandbox!

I see sandbox MMO's existing within a continum, like this:
Shared freedoms <-> Instanced freedoms.

I think the instanced sandboxes will be the most poular. But unfrortunately they won't please everyone. I--for example--wnat a shared sandbox MMO.

There're stilll many uncertainties in my mind about how shared sandboxes will evovle to solve some of these interaction problems.

EDIT: I should add I'd still like to play something like EQ agin. That's why I'm interested in Patheon. It's NOT the same thing as Wurm ONline. Wurm Onlihne is first and foremost a sandbox. That means a lot of building and working with others to establish peace and relations. After that it's about immersion. EQ was different because its focus was more on interacting and exploring something professionally made. Immersion was also a big thing in EQ. EQ had so much lore and information built into the world. Sandbox MMO's are about what you can do TO the world. Eq was about "You're IN our world now." It's what you do IN the world, like quest or explore or fight. In general.