Remoras are the problem not Whales.

Mickle

The problem is with the Devs not knowing how to use both groups to improve the game.

Talonsin

I dont hate the whales, I hate when a person can buy an advantage in a game that can not be obtained in-game without a ton of grinding.  Games are meant to be fun for the players and p2w removes that for many a person. 

I believe that Star Citizen is leaning towards the P2W model.  People who are buying the bigger ships and best equipment are going to rule that game when it launches.  If I need to spend 5 hours a day, 7 days a week grinding missions for 6 months to earn enough to even come close to competing with that, I'm leaving.  I dont hate those who purchase the bigger ships but I will hate the developers who decided to make a game where wallets speak louder than player skill or ability.

Solar_Prophet

MikePt said:

One day whales will go extinct xD

Hah! That's hilarious. 

Of course, the very idea a man who spent his entire life mooching off of others and never once held a job could design a functioning social / economic / political system makes it even funnier. Warrior of the 'working class'... LOL. He never worked for a damn thing in his life, and his ideology was meant solely to keep it that way. On the plus side, he fits the lamprey / remora / raccoon / whatever example perfectly. 

Velocinox

This thread is...

aRtFuLThinG

Both are the natural evolution given the ecosystem (if we are going to use biology term). F2P is the real problem here - it is not a stable ecosystem.

F2P model is like the Ascension Island of gaming ecosystem. Competing species just tries to kill off each other instead of reaching an equilibrium. Part of the reason why that is is because F2P is NOT a closed system and buy-ins introduces outside and unstable element to the mix.

Game economies needs closed system in order to be stable, imo (like old school mmos).

holdenhamlet

Nasa said:

holdenhamlet said:

1. The only reason f2p works is because of whales.  Not many people like the f2p model.
2. People that don't spend any money don't influence anything.
   

1. Source?. Players vote with their wallet and time. If the game and model is bad they don't play. I think f2p has a big part of League of Legends success.
2. Ever heard of players as content?. Other players keep the guilds and game active.

1.  Source?  What?  Whales spend money.  f2p players don't.  It's literally in the name of the group's description.  If you need a source for that statement, you're in dire trouble indeed.

2. Sure f2p players are important for f2p games, but when a Dev team does things we don't like such as introduce rng boxes, it's not because of f2p players.  The player unfriendly decisions are made to get whale money and because of whale influence.

People don't dislike f2p games because they're free.  They don't like them because of the way they're monetized for whales.  Whales are hated because of this by proxy.

And we're not talking about f2p mobas.  It's pretty hard to be a traditional whale in a game where you can gain absolutely no advantage through paying.

I've never heard about anyone that buys a lot of skins in a moba being called a whale or talked down upon.

So why do you think whales are badmouthed?

Tasslehoff35

holdenhamlet said:

Nasa said:

holdenhamlet said:

1. The only reason f2p works is because of whales.  Not many people like the f2p model.
2. People that don't spend any money don't influence anything.
   

1. Source?. Players vote with their wallet and time. If the game and model is bad they don't play. I think f2p has a big part of League of Legends success.
2. Ever heard of players as content?. Other players keep the guilds and game active.

So why do you think whales are badmouthed?

Very few mmorpgs have advantages in their shops.  Most are cosmetic or decorations for the player housing.  This notion that "whales" somehow can have this huge advantage over others is false in large majority of mmorpgs and has been made up by the freeloades. 

Why do whales get bad mouthed?  Because in today's society special snowflakes are taught those with money and those who spend their own money on interest they have are evil.  These special snowflakes are told it's not fair and that these "whales" should share their money so the special snowflakes can get a free ride. 

filmoret

Tasslehoff35 said:

holdenhamlet said:

Nasa said:

holdenhamlet said:

1. The only reason f2p works is because of whales.  Not many people like the f2p model.
2. People that don't spend any money don't influence anything.
   

1. Source?. Players vote with their wallet and time. If the game and model is bad they don't play. I think f2p has a big part of League of Legends success.
2. Ever heard of players as content?. Other players keep the guilds and game active.

So why do you think whales are badmouthed?

Very few mmorpgs have advantages in their shops.  Most are cosmetic or decorations for the player housing. 

I can't believe you just said that.  Very few mmorpg's don't have advantages.  For every mmorpg you find that doesn't have pay to win cash shop I can show you 2 that do.  Noone cares about whales in GW2 or Eve because it doesn't really impact other players.  But in Archeage or Shaiya then you are gonna either fork over a few thousand or die repeatedly.

Gdemami

holdenhamlet said:
So why do you think whales are badmouthed?

Because people are envious...

Tasslehoff35

filmoret said:

Tasslehoff35 said:

holdenhamlet said:

Nasa said:

holdenhamlet said:

1. The only reason f2p works is because of whales.  Not many people like the f2p model.
2. People that don't spend any money don't influence anything.
   

1. Source?. Players vote with their wallet and time. If the game and model is bad they don't play. I think f2p has a big part of League of Legends success.
2. Ever heard of players as content?. Other players keep the guilds and game active.

So why do you think whales are badmouthed?

Very few mmorpgs have advantages in their shops.  Most are cosmetic or decorations for the player housing. 

I can't believe you just said that.  Very few mmorpg's don't have advantages.  For every mmorpg you find that doesn't have pay to win cash shop I can show you 2 that do.  Noone cares about whales in GW2 or Eve because it doesn't really impact other players.  But in Archeage or Shaiya then you are gonna either fork over a few thousand or die repeatedly.

Please very few mmorpgs have advantages unless you are playing a Korean or Asian mmo.  But since this site is mainly western players my comment was directed at western mmos so I am still 100% correct.  

Tasslehoff35

Eadan1 said:

holdenhamlet said:

And we're not talking about f2p mobas.  It's pretty hard to be a traditional whale in a game where you can gain absolutely no advantage through paying.

I've never heard about anyone that buys a lot of skins in a moba being called a whale or talked down upon.

I badmouth people buyig lots of skins in MOBAs. It's likely they get an advantage in game since companies don't disclose their matchmaking and punishment systems. You spend a lot? You get matched with well behaving people and people you report are punished. You don't spend? You get punished if someone who spends reports you and you are matched with the worst. There is even a "behaviour score" you can look up in console in Dota2.

The worst kind of "f2p" is actually MOBAs where the advantage of paying isn't obvious, so "free players" are supposed to accept any form of unfair treatment by the devs. It's why companies like Valve are the most aggresive pushers of the f2p model.

Lol oh the conspiracy theory too funny.  

Ramajama

Sebali said:

the remora sound a lot like the millenials

Thats how they were raised by their parents

Pepeq

Remoras and whales are not the problem, the ocean is.  

We didn't make the world, we're just stuck living in it.

Loke666

When a game encourage players to spend hundreds of dollars in a short time for advantages there certainly is a problem for me, the game is unbalanced then and real world income becomes the most important thing to play, not something that offers a fun and balanced experience.

However when people don't pay at all, that is also a problem since the devs don't get in enough money to keep developing the game and then add more stuff for the whales.

Both sucks, but as a player I get more annoyed of the whale problem while devs get more irritated of the leech problem.

I want my achivements to be ingame, letting people pay to get as good or better stuff then me who works hard for my stuff takes away the point of playing for me. The devs do indeed need to get in money and I do pay in games I enjoy but when the cashshop screws up the game balance todays gear focused games loses all their points to me.

Certain games handle this pretty well anyways, like GW2 and TERA but others are unplayable unless you both pay an "optional" fee and more. often a lot more. I don't play those games, at least not for long.

And I wish some games had 2 serversets, one with cashshops and one with monthly fees and everything included, it shouldn't be very hard and would satisfy most people.

ohioastro

I detest games where people can pay hard cash to obtain in-game advantages.  It's basically choked off the MMO genre entirely - either advantage-for-cash or tedious busywork.  I'm perfectly happy to pay for games that I enjoy - by buying them or with a subscription.  I won't play any game that pays the rent with a cash shop.  It leads to terrible game play, and it has nothing to do with me wanting free stuff.  I just want good games.

Loke666

Eadan1 said:

Tasslehoff35 said:

Eadan1 said:

I badmouth people buyig lots of skins in MOBAs. It's likely they get an advantage in game since companies don't disclose their matchmaking and punishment systems. You spend a lot? You get matched with well behaving people and people you report are punished. You don't spend? You get punished if someone who spends reports you and you are matched with the worst. There is even a "behaviour score" you can look up in console in Dota2.

The worst kind of "f2p" is actually MOBAs where the advantage of paying isn't obvious, so "free players" are supposed to accept any form of unfair treatment by the devs. It's why companies like Valve are the most aggresive pushers of the f2p model.

Lol oh the conspiracy theory too funny.  

I should have expected you to be a sucker, judging by how proud you are to be a whale. It's a a pity you can't understand that there would be no f2p game for the likes of you to spend on without non-spenders laboring for those games for free.

But because people like you who never pay at all they add loads of stuff for him to buy making the game crap for people like me.

The devs do need income and if most people don't pay some they will trick a few to pay for all of it and there goes all kind of game balance.

That is why I like P2P games (who shouldn't have any cashshop) and B2P, who at least get some money from everyone so they can be more restrictive with the RMTshop.

Slapshot1188

Can we just go back to subscription models?  

Tasslehoff35

Slapshot1188 said:

Can we just go back to subscription models?  

We could but that won't stop the freeloaders from complaining. 

Slapshot1188

Tasslehoff35 said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Can we just go back to subscription models?  

We could but that won't stop the freeloaders from complaining. 

I don;t care about complaining.  I care about a fun game that I can enjoy for years.  I'd like to pay a sub and not have to be nickle and dimed after that.  Since we moved away from the Box + Sub fee structure IMHO games have just gone downhill.

Tasslehoff35

Slapshot1188 said:

Tasslehoff35 said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Can we just go back to subscription models?  

We could but that won't stop the freeloaders from complaining. 

I don;t care about complaining.  I care about a fun game that I can enjoy for years.  I'd like to pay a sub and not have to be nickle and dimed after that.  Since we moved away from the Box + Sub fee structure IMHO games have just gone downhill.

What games nickle and dime you?  You are not required to purchase anything in most western mmos with cash shops.  Because a person doesn't have enough self control to see that isn't the games structures fault.  Plus if you sub most of them give you a monthly gift of the shops currency.  

Kyleran

Tasslehoff35 said:

filmoret said:

Tasslehoff35 said:

holdenhamlet said:

Nasa said:

holdenhamlet said:

1. The only reason f2p works is because of whales.  Not many people like the f2p model.
2. People that don't spend any money don't influence anything.
   

1. Source?. Players vote with their wallet and time. If the game and model is bad they don't play. I think f2p has a big part of League of Legends success.
2. Ever heard of players as content?. Other players keep the guilds and game active.

So why do you think whales are badmouthed?

Very few mmorpgs have advantages in their shops.  Most are cosmetic or decorations for the player housing. 

I can't believe you just said that.  Very few mmorpg's don't have advantages.  For every mmorpg you find that doesn't have pay to win cash shop I can show you 2 that do.  Noone cares about whales in GW2 or Eve because it doesn't really impact other players.  But in Archeage or Shaiya then you are gonna either fork over a few thousand or die repeatedly.

Please very few mmorpgs have advantages unless you are playing a Korean or Asian mmo.  But since this site is mainly western players my comment was directed at western mmos so I am still 100% correct.  

In the past few years how many MMORPGs have been launched by anyone but Asian devs?

Going forward looks to be more of the same.

Luiden

For me the Whales are a bigger problem as the empower the gaming companies to put out crap games with awesome cash shops.  The free loaders take care of them selves, in a subscription based games the free loaders turn into the whiners and beggars in the game and the players can weed them out.

Tasslehoff35

Kyleran said:

Tasslehoff35 said:

filmoret said:

Tasslehoff35 said:

holdenhamlet said:

Nasa said:

holdenhamlet said:

1. The only reason f2p works is because of whales.  Not many people like the f2p model.
2. People that don't spend any money don't influence anything.
   

1. Source?. Players vote with their wallet and time. If the game and model is bad they don't play. I think f2p has a big part of League of Legends success.
2. Ever heard of players as content?. Other players keep the guilds and game active.

So why do you think whales are badmouthed?

Very few mmorpgs have advantages in their shops.  Most are cosmetic or decorations for the player housing. 

I can't believe you just said that.  Very few mmorpg's don't have advantages.  For every mmorpg you find that doesn't have pay to win cash shop I can show you 2 that do.  Noone cares about whales in GW2 or Eve because it doesn't really impact other players.  But in Archeage or Shaiya then you are gonna either fork over a few thousand or die repeatedly.

Please very few mmorpgs have advantages unless you are playing a Korean or Asian mmo.  But since this site is mainly western players my comment was directed at western mmos so I am still 100% correct.  

In the past few years how many MMORPGs have been launched by anyone but Asian devs?

Going forward looks to be more of the same.

That doesn't change the fact today in western mmos this false premise that these cash shops sell advantages.  Because the majority of them don't it's just a fact.  Well unless you think a cosmetic item or a pet is somehow and advantage. 

mrrshann618

It is really simple.
Sub =/= quality
Sub =/= on time content
Sub =/= better community
Sub =/= lack of bugs
Sub does not  invalidate the cash shop

f2p =/= Pay to Win
f2p =/= freeloader

What f2p does is give the choice of paying as much or as little to a game while boosting the population. THAT improves the general play-ability of many games simply due to population. I see f2p like ordering a movie at a hotel. You do not have to order a movie to use the TV, you can simply watch what is on normal programing.

The problem is the overall mentality of the companies who simply want the quick $$$$$$. If no one puts out a product designed for long term playability, then why support it. Why would I want to support a game, just because it is a sub, if the game is crap compared to a f2p title? You can only play what is offered, you can only vote with your wallets based on the selection available.

People voting to not pay, or pay how much/little as they want, ARE voting with their wallets. They loose nothing if the game goes under, unlike the person who subbed for a year. Remora is a great term for them. They benefit the gaming community as a whole by simply playing. Until things are made for the long term, imho, there is no reason to give them my money BLINDLY. I pay how much I want, when I want, and for what I want. I do not have to call a Taxi/take a bus to get to where I'm going. I can simply walk if I choose.

Tasslehoff35

aliven said:

Tasslehoff35 said:

Eadan1 said:

Tasslehoff35 said:

Eadan1 said:

Tasslehoff35 said:

Haha whatever you say little buddy.  I will never apologize to people like you for spending my own money on a hobby I enjoy.  It's almost as bad as your kind telling white people they should feel guilty about being white.   The brainwashing that is going on today is frightening.  Go get a job a find a hobby you enjoy and spend whatever you want on it, you won't be judged by me.  But the brainwashed sheep will continue to judge everyone else because somehow buying decorations for my ingame house or a cosmetic item is not fair to the likes of you. 

Do whatever you want with your money, and I will think whatever I want about it. I am not the one opening threads to shame people who don't spend money on "free to play" games, like they are not basically laboring for free to make the game more appealing for the likes of you. You still can't understand that there won't be a game for you to spend money on without free players.

Haha pretty sure I enjoy games like destiny and the division and they have zero free players.  Yeah like In society freeloaders are a cancer it's the same with video games...Its sad you can't understand that. 

What load does someone playing a game for free have exactly? At most 5 cent increase in server costs? Yeah I am sure those are the ones causing global warming and stuff.

Not surprised you wouldn't understand it's not about how much it cost.  They provide nothing of value to the game, they have zero insentive to be a positive part of the community.  It's not a shocker when games like LOTRO or Swtor went f2p their communities went into the toilets...then they spend their times on forums like this crying about people who buy a pet have an advantage or they only cost the server 5 cents. 

LOTRO community is regarded across the internet as the most friendly and helpfull one. 

All people who believe f2p players dont bring anything for the game and dont have any right are the real cancer to the game industry. 

You are correct because the community pushed back and didn't tolerate the f2p players coming in and trying to ruin one of the best communities in mmos.  No you are wrong f2p players don't bring anything to the games it's a fact.  The only time they do is when they start to spend money at that time they are no longer f2p.