'Developing for VR's hardware constraints is like going back to the N64'

[Deleted User]

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SEANMCAD

I wonder if snapping the head fast as one does in a golf swing is a headset problem. Those swings if I recall are pretty quick

Talmien

I'm sure rapid head movement will be a issue with the headset, unless it's strapped on really tight and the frame rate can keep up without tearing the world. But atleast for golf, your head should not move, you keep focused on the ball until your swing is completed, then you look to where it went.

SEANMCAD

Talmien said:

I'm sure rapid head movement will be a issue with the headset, unless it's strapped on really tight and the frame rate can keep up without tearing the world. But atleast for golf, your head should not move, you keep focused on the ball until your swing is completed, then you look to where it went.

ah yes gotcha. the proper way to do it rather than the 1/2 assed way I used to.

makes sense. I also dont see VR Golf as much of a major challenge.

In fact it already exists to some degree
http://www.golf-vr.com/

Rusque

Sigh, another VR post for me. Sean will be mad at me again and I'll have to go sit in the corner.

Inventory . . . ffs, here's why my brain gets confused with what developers are thinking with VR. You're in VR, why are you designing an inventory display? I want to open up my virtual adventurer's backpack and rummage through it to get what I need. And this means that you change how you think about games. Instead of carrying a magical bag of holding 50 axes, a horse, 800lbs of flowers, various ores, little pets, etc etc, you use it as an immersive feature of the game!

Maybe you don't even have a bag, maybe you just have a utility belt or whatever, it's way more interesting for the design space that is VR. Why would you give me an inventory screen? Allow players to wear their gear where ever they have straps and sheathes and whatnot on their character. If I'm left handed and want to holster my weapon on my left side, then that's where it should be when I reach for it.

If the technical limitations are such that this can't be done in VR, then VR doesn't exist, it's just a monitor in that case that allows you to mouselook around. Come on, wear a backpack, wear a head mounted camera and film what it looks like to sling it off your shoulder, put it down in front of you, open it up and look through it. That's your inventory.

SEANMCAD

Rusque said:

Sigh, another VR post for me. Sean will be mad at me again and I'll have to go sit in the corner.

Inventory . . . ffs, here's why my brain gets confused with what developers are thinking with VR. You're in VR, why are you designing an inventory display? I want to open up my virtual adventurer's backpack and rummage through it to get what I need. And this means that you change how you think about games. Instead of carrying a magical bag of holding 50 axes, a horse, 800lbs of flowers, various ores, little pets, etc etc, you use it as an immersive feature of the game!

Maybe you don't even have a bag, maybe you just have a utility belt or whatever, it's way more interesting for the design space that is VR. Why would you give me an inventory screen? Allow players to wear their gear where ever they have straps and sheathes and whatnot on their character. If I'm left handed and want to holster my weapon on my left side, then that's where it should be when I reach for it.

If the technical limitations are such that this can't be done in VR, then VR doesn't exist, it's just a monitor in that case that allows you to mouselook around. Come on, wear a backpack, wear a head mounted camera and film what it looks like to sling it off your shoulder, put it down in front of you, open it up and look through it. That's your inventory.

how long does it take to make a AAA game?

Rusque

SEANMCAD said:

 

how long does it take to make a AAA game?

Three and a half minutes.

They're talking about what an inventory system would look like. Well, that's my suggestion for what VR would make possible for an inventory system. But if they're not even thinking it, then it doesn't matter how long it takes to make a AAA game, because when it does come out with a normal inventory system, it'll still be a normal inventory system. 

They're worrying about stuff like font size . . . that's the actual problem. They're still thinking in terms of 2D space, who cares if you're modeling 3D items if you're putting them on a grid-like plane in front of the user? Just make a regular game and be done with it if you can't think of anything beyond it.

VR offers a unique opportunity to create a new way to interact with games, so why recreate the old way of interacting with games? It doesn't make sense. They're trying to solve design problems by treating a new medium the same way they treated the old medium - I don't get it. It seems like creating smaller inventories would end up freeing up that memory space too as the database has to keep track of fewer items, and by fewer I'd imagine it's a difference between an immersive system allowing for 10-20 items while a typical grid system can be dozens to hundreds of items (sometimes thousands).

SEANMCAD

Rusque said:

SEANMCAD said:

 

how long does it take to make a AAA game?

Three and a half minutes.

..

oh really? 3 1/2 mins to create a AAA game.

Gotcha.

I mean I know they have been creating this Oculus thing for a decade now in a super secret bunker but the best us in the public can tell one could have only been developing for an Oculus for about no more than 2 year max. but as you say you only need 3 1/2 mins

Rusque

Well you asked a stupid question and got a stupid answer, at least I offered some relevant discussion points. Which, whatever, it doesn't really matter because anyone who isn't enamored by VR is your mortal enemy.

The current VR offerings as well as the current thoughts regarding VR that are being reported (who knows maybe some game studio is working on something amazing, but is not in a promotional phase yet), are all lackluster. All I know is what I can see. And what I see is hot garbage. Expensive hot garbage. And the more I see, the less impressed I get. I'm an N of 1, so in the end I don't matter anyway. There may be more who agree with me, but are tired of having to fight with you every time they say anything about VR. It's like trying to talk about Star Citizen with Erillion, you can't. If you agree and/or like how they're designing VR stuff, great, enjoy, it's all yours.

maskedweasel

They always complained on how slow it was to create for the N64 -- and some of those games in the end were fantastic -- but it definitely wasn't a preferred platform for developers.

I think the main difference in that comparison is ... that the N64 was coming off of the success of the SNES which was mostly a dominant gaming platform for many years.   

Why does that matter?  Well we're talking about ecosystems here... VR in itself is it's own ecosystem, but when we look back for comparisons sake, Nintendo was such an established system that, while the N64 was extremely tough to develop for, developers still understood the immense profitability per the previous incarnations that developing for nintendo had.

Looking at VR as something tougher to develop for in general, yet, with untested indicators of profitability may be one of the largest constraints on getting the surge of support needed for faster adoption.

I mean honestly VR isn't reinventing the wheel here...  getting an engine that could implement these thing to aid in alleviating these little issues should probably be on the top of the list of the hardware manufacturers.  I mean, after all, VR isn't just going to be its own ecosystem,  but the potential for a fragmented one at that with so many different sets with different resolutions, devices, inputs and so on.

SEANMCAD

Rusque said:

Well you asked a stupid question and got a stupid answer, at least I offered some relevant discussion points. Which, whatever, it doesn't really matter because anyone who isn't enamored by VR is your mortal enemy.

The current VR offerings as well as the current thoughts regarding VR that are being reported (who knows maybe some game studio is working on something amazing, but is not in a promotional phase yet), are all lackluster. All I know is what I can see. And what I see is hot garbage. Expensive hot garbage. And the more I see, the less impressed I get. I'm an N of 1, so in the end I don't matter anyway. There may be more who agree with me, but are tired of having to fight with you every time they say anything about VR. It's like trying to talk about Star Citizen with Erillion, you can't. If you agree and/or like how they're designing VR stuff, great, enjoy, it's all yours.

try this for 'relevant discussion points'

When the Xbox came out it
1. had less games then Oculus
2. had less playable time then Oculus
3. had less variety of content then Oculus
4. had a very long peroid before it in which developers were creating for it unlike Oculus which has only had about 2 years.

'hi Mr. Ubisoft how would you like to make a game for some hardware that is on a kickstarter created by an 18 year old?'
'I think I might wait'

so yeah...about maybe what? 6 months to make a good game and yet there is more content then xbox I am not exactly sure what you are expecting or what universe you are looking at.

but YES...do wait. Dont mistaken what I am saying as a suggestion that you should jump on board. you should not. Just stop acting like there isnt any content for these things its flowing all over the place

laserit

SEANMCAD said:

Rusque said:

Well you asked a stupid question and got a stupid answer, at least I offered some relevant discussion points. Which, whatever, it doesn't really matter because anyone who isn't enamored by VR is your mortal enemy.

The current VR offerings as well as the current thoughts regarding VR that are being reported (who knows maybe some game studio is working on something amazing, but is not in a promotional phase yet), are all lackluster. All I know is what I can see. And what I see is hot garbage. Expensive hot garbage. And the more I see, the less impressed I get. I'm an N of 1, so in the end I don't matter anyway. There may be more who agree with me, but are tired of having to fight with you every time they say anything about VR. It's like trying to talk about Star Citizen with Erillion, you can't. If you agree and/or like how they're designing VR stuff, great, enjoy, it's all yours.

try this for 'relevant discussion points'

When the Xbox came out it
1. had less games then Oculus
2. had less playable time then Oculus
3. had less variety of content then Oculus
4. had a very long peroid before it in which developers were creating for it unlike Oculus which has only had about 2 years.

'hi Mr. Ubisoft how would you like to make a game for some hardware that is on a kickstarter created by an 18 year old?'
'I think I might wait'

so yeah...about maybe what? 6 months to make a good game and yet there is more content then xbox I am not exactly sure what you are expecting or what universe you are looking at.

but YES...do wait. Dont mistaken what I am saying as a suggestion that you should jump on board. you should not. Just stop acting like there isnt any content for these things its flowing all over the place

I don't know the answer, maybe you can answer for me.

Did Mr Palmer Luckey actually invent anything?

SEANMCAD

laserit said:

SEANMCAD said:

Rusque said:

Well you asked a stupid question and got a stupid answer, at least I offered some relevant discussion points. Which, whatever, it doesn't really matter because anyone who isn't enamored by VR is your mortal enemy.

The current VR offerings as well as the current thoughts regarding VR that are being reported (who knows maybe some game studio is working on something amazing, but is not in a promotional phase yet), are all lackluster. All I know is what I can see. And what I see is hot garbage. Expensive hot garbage. And the more I see, the less impressed I get. I'm an N of 1, so in the end I don't matter anyway. There may be more who agree with me, but are tired of having to fight with you every time they say anything about VR. It's like trying to talk about Star Citizen with Erillion, you can't. If you agree and/or like how they're designing VR stuff, great, enjoy, it's all yours.

try this for 'relevant discussion points'

When the Xbox came out it
1. had less games then Oculus
2. had less playable time then Oculus
3. had less variety of content then Oculus
4. had a very long peroid before it in which developers were creating for it unlike Oculus which has only had about 2 years.

'hi Mr. Ubisoft how would you like to make a game for some hardware that is on a kickstarter created by an 18 year old?'
'I think I might wait'

so yeah...about maybe what? 6 months to make a good game and yet there is more content then xbox I am not exactly sure what you are expecting or what universe you are looking at.

but YES...do wait. Dont mistaken what I am saying as a suggestion that you should jump on board. you should not. Just stop acting like there isnt any content for these things its flowing all over the place

I don't know the answer, maybe you can answer for me.

Did Mr Palmer Luckey actually invent anything?

I have no idea, dont care and not related to the illustrated point.

but thanks for that

Rusque

Yeah not relevant because the article isn't discussing the release of a game, nor did I mention anything about AAA releases of games outside of response to you. The article, and my posts are both directed at the fact that they can't even think about VR in an interesting manner while at a design stage. They are literally talking about inventory systems that we have in 2D.

And while your list is factually correct, it glosses over one very major point. Xbox had HALO as a launch title. One of the most well-received and well-known killer apps ever created. Some even speculated that xbox may have never gotten on the map without HALO. I'm no HALO fan, but your list is grossly disingenuous by omitting this key game. HALO is possibly the textbook example of what a killer app is. If any of the VR platforms had a killer app like HALO, we wouldn't be having this conversation and news outlets wouldn't be promoting shovelware as amazing experiences.

Do I expect them to have quality, worthwhile titles? That depends, do they expect me to pay $600+ for their product?


Anyway, I don't know where you find the energy for this, I've got to tap out - so you win the internet. Good day.

maskedweasel

SEANMCAD said:

try this for 'relevant discussion points'

When the Xbox came out it
1. had less games then Oculus
2. had less playable time then Oculus
3. had less variety of content then Oculus
4. had a very long peroid before it in which developers were creating for it unlike Oculus which has only had about 2 years.

1- Whats considered a game to you?  Because from what I've seen from the oculus store... very few of them are actually worth playing.. or even considered a game. More like.. general demos.

2- Not even close on playable time... do you know what games launched with the original xbox?  Do you know why it became as popular as it did?  Would you like to guess?  Just a single launch game with a fan following is worth more than every game in the OR store.  Want to guess how many launched with XB? 

3- not sure what this means but when I had my XB I could watch DVDs and things like that.  Things that you really couldn't do on other systems.  It was basically the equivalent of streaming today.

4- not really sure where you got this information from, or how you could even confirm it.

filmoret

Ouch VR is going to require 90 fps in order to be playable.  Quite an increase from the 60 fps we have been using for years.  Not to mention a lot of people still play games at 30 fps.  I'm sure in the future that 90 fps will be like the 30 fps players today.

SEANMCAD

maskedweasel said:

SEANMCAD said:

try this for 'relevant discussion points'

When the Xbox came out it
1. had less games then Oculus
2. had less playable time then Oculus
3. had less variety of content then Oculus
4. had a very long peroid before it in which developers were creating for it unlike Oculus which has only had about 2 years.

1- Whats considered a game to you?  Because from what I've seen from the oculus store... very few of them are actually worth playing.. or even considered a game. More like.. general demos.

2- Not even close on playable time... do you know what games launched with the original xbox?  Do you know why it became as popular as it did?  Would you like to guess?  Just a single launch game with a fan following is worth more than every game in the OR store.  Want to guess how many launched with XB? 

3- not sure what this means but when I had my XB I could watch DVDs and things like that.  Things that you really couldn't do on other systems.  It was basically the equivalent of streaming today.

4- not really sure where you got this information from, or how you could even confirm it.

1. how many games did xbox have at release? 1 maybe 2? or was it 3? well yeah I consider Elite Dangerous 1, Eve Valkrine 2, and maybe the other 200 or so can all count together as,,,hmmm lets say 10 games. although hours played in all those games is considerably more? does that please you sire?

2. guess coming...hold on to it...wait for it. unadulterated, unmitigated marketing.
 
3. xbox had less variety of game play.

4. AAA games take on average 3-4 years to make. so unless the games that game out on xbox when it was first released where just rushed garbage games then its safe to assume they needed a 3-4 year lead time.

maskedweasel

SEANMCAD said:

maskedweasel said:

SEANMCAD said:

try this for 'relevant discussion points'

When the Xbox came out it
1. had less games then Oculus
2. had less playable time then Oculus
3. had less variety of content then Oculus
4. had a very long peroid before it in which developers were creating for it unlike Oculus which has only had about 2 years.

1- Whats considered a game to you?  Because from what I've seen from the oculus store... very few of them are actually worth playing.. or even considered a game. More like.. general demos.

2- Not even close on playable time... do you know what games launched with the original xbox?  Do you know why it became as popular as it did?  Would you like to guess?  Just a single launch game with a fan following is worth more than every game in the OR store.  Want to guess how many launched with XB? 

3- not sure what this means but when I had my XB I could watch DVDs and things like that.  Things that you really couldn't do on other systems.  It was basically the equivalent of streaming today.

4- not really sure where you got this information from, or how you could even confirm it.

1. how many games did xbox have at release? 1 maybe 2? or was it 3? well yeah I consider Elite Dangerous 1, Eve Valkrine 2, and maybe the other 200 or so can all count together as,,,hmmm lets say 10 games. although hours played in all those games is considerably more? does that please you sire?

2. guess coming...hold on to it...wait for it. unadulterated, unmitigated marketing.
 
3. xbox had less variety of game play.

4. AAA games take on average 3-4 years to make. so unless the games that game out on xbox when it was first released where just rushed garbage games then its safe to assume they needed a 3-4 year lead time.

Are you talking about the original xbox?  Because if so... it takes like.. 2 minutes to look up the launch games.  It launched with Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2X... that game alone is more playtime than the 200 or so you can count together... it was actually one of if not THE best, most successful and most critically acclaimed games that launched that year.   Halo launched with the  original  XB... Halo...  y'know... the game that ended up becoming a game that shaped not only the Xbox as a platform but emblazoned itself in pop culture.

Oh but Eve Valkyrie seems like it -- oh wait no... I don't think many people even know that game exists.

Over 20 games launched with the original xbox.. MOST of them were already big names... games that people wanted to buy already.

Madden was one of them... madden which is one of the biggest football games in the gaming industry.

NHL hits which was another sports game -- always very big.

Project Gotham Racing which was actually slated as a fantastic racing game... 

Dead or Alive 3...  The DoA series was HUGE back then.....



Most people don't know a single game on the Rift.  

And oh yeah.. Xbox had much more variety than oculus on launch....    

My question is.. why do you still talk about things you don't know about without doing even the slightest bit of research?  

laserit

SEANMCAD said:

maskedweasel said:

SEANMCAD said:

try this for 'relevant discussion points'

When the Xbox came out it
1. had less games then Oculus
2. had less playable time then Oculus
3. had less variety of content then Oculus
4. had a very long peroid before it in which developers were creating for it unlike Oculus which has only had about 2 years.

1- Whats considered a game to you?  Because from what I've seen from the oculus store... very few of them are actually worth playing.. or even considered a game. More like.. general demos.

2- Not even close on playable time... do you know what games launched with the original xbox?  Do you know why it became as popular as it did?  Would you like to guess?  Just a single launch game with a fan following is worth more than every game in the OR store.  Want to guess how many launched with XB? 

3- not sure what this means but when I had my XB I could watch DVDs and things like that.  Things that you really couldn't do on other systems.  It was basically the equivalent of streaming today.

4- not really sure where you got this information from, or how you could even confirm it.

1. how many games did xbox have at release? 1 maybe 2? or was it 3? well yeah I consider Elite Dangerous 1, Eve Valkrine 2, and maybe the other 200 or so can all count together as,,,hmmm lets say 10 games. although hours played in all those games is considerably more? does that please you sire?

2. guess coming...hold on to it...wait for it. unadulterated, unmitigated marketing.
 
3. xbox had less variety of game play.

4. AAA games take on average 3-4 years to make. so unless the games that game out on xbox when it was first released where just rushed garbage games then its safe to assume they needed a 3-4 year lead time.

Hmm... I bought my DK1 over 3 years ago. Played LFD2 first thing when I plugged them in.

Not like an Oculus is a surprise or anything. Been out for developers for quite a time now.

Only thing that has impressed me personally with them is flying and driving.

Thane

SEANMCAD said:

I wonder if snapping the head fast as one does in a golf swing is a headset problem. Those swings if I recall are pretty quick

tested the VR project of some colleges.

they are doing a climbing similuator, and the physics for the grapling hook thingie they got in their game was still missing.
point of the level was to climb ON the flying island higher and higher, what i did, swing around UNDER the islands for 15 mins *spidersenses were tingling*
point being, to do that propperly i had to aim rather fast, and the headmovements i did were actually translated quite accurat to the game.

this ain't those cool machines in the arcade anymore which some of us might remember from the 90s, this VR actually DOES have some more power, you just have to keep in mind that the engine has to render everything twice :>

SEANMCAD

laserit said:

SEANMCAD said:

maskedweasel said:

SEANMCAD said:

try this for 'relevant discussion points'

When the Xbox came out it
1. had less games then Oculus
2. had less playable time then Oculus
3. had less variety of content then Oculus
4. had a very long peroid before it in which developers were creating for it unlike Oculus which has only had about 2 years.

1- Whats considered a game to you?  Because from what I've seen from the oculus store... very few of them are actually worth playing.. or even considered a game. More like.. general demos.

2- Not even close on playable time... do you know what games launched with the original xbox?  Do you know why it became as popular as it did?  Would you like to guess?  Just a single launch game with a fan following is worth more than every game in the OR store.  Want to guess how many launched with XB? 

3- not sure what this means but when I had my XB I could watch DVDs and things like that.  Things that you really couldn't do on other systems.  It was basically the equivalent of streaming today.

4- not really sure where you got this information from, or how you could even confirm it.

1. how many games did xbox have at release? 1 maybe 2? or was it 3? well yeah I consider Elite Dangerous 1, Eve Valkrine 2, and maybe the other 200 or so can all count together as,,,hmmm lets say 10 games. although hours played in all those games is considerably more? does that please you sire?

2. guess coming...hold on to it...wait for it. unadulterated, unmitigated marketing.
 
3. xbox had less variety of game play.

4. AAA games take on average 3-4 years to make. so unless the games that game out on xbox when it was first released where just rushed garbage games then its safe to assume they needed a 3-4 year lead time.

Hmm... I bought my DK1 over 3 years ago. Played LFD2 first thing when I plugged them in.

Not like an Oculus is a surprise or anything. Been out for developers for quite a time now.

Only thing that has impressed me personally with them is flying and driving.

so....I say again

'hey mr Ubisoft how would you like to make a game using a device from a kickstarter in which the kicstarter was started by an 18 year old (he may or may not have 'invented' it we dont know how that point is relvant however I am sure the specs will never change dramatically'


who in the F is going to start creating a AAA game from a DK1 set that is just getting started by a company that has to have a kickstarter to stay around and is (at the time) basically being run by an 18 year old?

seriously? 

god damnit

ok GUYS....listen, when you develop a game its nice to know that the controls are not going to change radically during development of the device...derp?

observer

More developers whining about new tech.  Either they adapt or someone else will replace them.  VR is here to stay and will evolve like the modern PC has.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

laserit

Ever tried a DK1?

I'm really starting to believe that you really know shit about an Oculus.

PottedPlant22

gaming is just beginning on the VR.  they have a long way to go, but it looks like to me the future will be very bright.

ceratop001

VR will be the future of gaming and social networking. I firmly believe this technology is unstoppable. Like always it will take time to implement and everything to sorta catch up.