I support the legacy server movement. With the way talent trees have been completely disassembled and the repeated failures to keep people interested in the game, a chance to go back and play it as the game was when I logged 20+ hours a week would be nice.
I might find I am looking at the past through rose colored glasses, but many of my issues with the game stem from the huge mistakes made because they listened to a small vocal minority when making cataclysm, that they never really recovered from.
Cataclysm, the sundering of Azeroth, it really was the end of the world for them. Think about it, accounts left in droves, the world has changed into something completely different from what it was (both in the map design and the gaming environment) Maybe if they did something like this they would have an opportunity to revisit what worked in WOTLK that let them have 12 million subs THAT STAYED ALMOST THE WHOLE XPAC, and implement some of those concepts in not legion, that is going to be a lost cause, but the next one (assuming there is one)
I support the legacy server movement. With the way talent trees have been completely disassembled and the repeated failures to keep people interested in the game, a chance to go back and play it as the game was when I logged 20+ hours a week would be nice.
I might find I am looking at the past through rose colored glasses, but many of my issues with the game stem from the huge mistakes made because they listened to a small vocal minority when making cataclysm, that they never really recovered from.
Cataclysm, the sundering of Azeroth, it really was the end of the world for them. Think about it, accounts left in droves, the world has changed into something completely different from what it was (both in the map design and the gaming environment) Maybe if they did something like this they would have an opportunity to revisit what worked in WOTLK that let them have 12 million subs THAT STAYED ALMOST THE WHOLE XPAC, and implement some of those concepts in not legion, that is going to be a lost cause, but the next one (assuming there is one)
The thing is that it clearly isn't rose coloured glasses anymore. Hundreds of thousands are/ have played vanilla, TBC and WotLK through emulators and choose to do so over retail for very valid reasons.
All those choosing to hide behind "but ... it's the law!" also choose to ignore the massive differences in play style and systems created through each dramatically different launch of each expansion. Blizzard chose to developed a new version each expansion that now proves to exist as individual entities with each drawing it's own audience.
Today we are only left with one official version of Wow ... one. When reality reveals each expansion was nearly entirely it's own game. This is why Vanilla players love vanilla ... because it is static and will never change beyond it's scope! They love TBC because it is static and will never change beyond it's scope. They love WotLK because it is static and will never change beyond it's scope. I hope people are getting the picture here.
How long have people who never played an emulator played Vanilla retail or TBC or WotLK? The answer can only be maximum as long as it was live ... and no longer because it then vanished from the world. Dramatic system change choices forever altered core game design principles. Blizzard chose to do this. Blizzard chose to create this entire mess themselves.
You are DAMN right it is up to them to resolve the demand THEY created. Wow earned BILLIONS! Do you think the current retail Wow is a game reflecting a budget of billions? So not only do the fans of Wow versions vanished from the world have to live without the game they helped build make Blizzard what it is today but they have to live with the fact their money went to entirely different genres they don't play to pad the wallets of investors. Is a fan not an investor? I've seen individual players invest thousands into a game over time simply because the love it and this means nothing to Blizzard apparently. They will drop their own fan base in a heartbeat so their investors can make 1.492% more profit next quarter. THIS is the law some of you defend?
You are ignorant fools if you do. Laws are meant to be changed and is the consumer who ultimately has the power hence why this debate even exists and responses are given and conversations progressed. Sit behind the ignorance you thing bliss but for those unwilling to enter the debate. I call you for what you are: fools and the victims of the future.
Honestly one of the big mistakes they made early on was not generating a third faction out of the Burning Crusade content. That would have revamped world PvP as well as instanced, and let the lore of the game grow from the legacy of WC3 in a much more complete and involved way where Outland would have been an continuous and active new faction and contender in the world of Azeroth, rather than another hub to out-level.
Their mistakes only really got more severe by compounding over time to narrow the game continuously and retcon things into a very alien and nonsensical form.
Having a rollback server and progression server wouldn't really fix the expansion content, but it at least offers the chance to play a version of WoW that wasn't so dramatically skewed either.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I'm not going to watch that as my daughter is trying to fall asleep. But if that is about vanilla servers, well you know what. I happen to think Azeroth is perfectly fine the way it is now. I enjoy WoW at the present, and so do millions of others.
What is it with people wanting to go backwards. If we never made any strive to go forward, can you imagine where we would be? I love it how a vocal minority seems to think WoW right now is the worst ever. Well you know what, the millions still playing would like to disagree with them. And when the Expac drops, even more more will disagree. I enjoy all the little things added to WoW nowdays, it is great. I love the garrisons, I enjoy the pokemon fights to some extent, and I enjoy the other tiny things added for fun. I can't imagine going back to vanilla. It wasn't as great as everyone seems to think it was.
This is getting out of hand. WoW has released its statement, just because those that want a completely classic vanilla server don't like it doesn't like what Blizzard says, doesn't change the fact that Blizzard has spoken. At best from what Blizzard has said, all the exp boost and so forth turned off in the Azeroth of now.
I agree with you. Wow is great as it is. All this crap is coming from the Wow haters. Don't be fooled by this crap at all. These are the same people that hate on Wow all the time.
Honestly one of the big mistakes they made early on was not generating a third faction out of the Burning Crusade content. That would have revamped world PvP as well as instanced, and let the lore of the game grow from the legacy of WC3 in a much more complete and involved way where Outland would have been an continuous and active new faction and contender in the world of Azeroth, rather than another hub to out-level.
Their mistakes only really got more severe by compounding over time to narrow the game continuously and retcon things into a very alien and nonsensical form.
Having a rollback server and progression server wouldn't really fix the expansion content, but it at least offers the chance to play a version of WoW that wasn't so dramatically skewed either.
(start sarcasm) But the game has approximately 25% - 30% of its peak player base which translates to about 3 - 4 million players. 3 - 4 million players says that Blizzard made all the right choices and WoW is a better game now than it ever has been. (end sarcasm)
What is it with people wanting to go backwards. If we never made any strive to go forward, can you imagine where we would be?
Whilst a valid point, it is also worth noting that "going forwards" does always mean "improving". Change is not always for the better. Sometimes it really is worth admitting that that new do-dad thingy didn't work out and roll it back.
I'm not saying that everything is worse now in WoW, just that "new" != "better".
I can agree with that. Absolutely 100% newer doesn't always equal better. That is a very true statement. But for the most part WoW has improved leaps and bounds from vanilla. I remember the launch, man was that a cluster fuck. Sure some things have lost their appeal. I enjoyed taming rare pets that had some cool stats and the like. But like all things that moved on to pet families and all that. But it was just something that moved forward. I guess that is why most if not all MMO boxes say "Online experience may change".
As someone whos keep playing the current WoW if u believe that in total WoW is a better game, then u are beyond dellusional. You have some improved game mechanics that help u slightly with your expierience and i will agree that some of them are mandatory. But in general the game has gotten worse. non-existant community downgrade of the sole reason on being into guilds major aspects of any MMORPG.Non existant world PvP. Pathetic proffesions with mats that can be aquired in garissons, non-existant individuality in classes with no unique buffs and many other.
The discussion of a Vanilla server is one that is filled with bias.
The bias from losing something. The bias from nostalgia. The bias of "what ifs". The bias of believing in fantasy when ignoring reality. Indeed, the latter is especially true in various circumstances, where one side or both, or all are so blinded, so caught up in their own little world that they forget about subjective thoughts and objective facts. This in addition to conspiracy theories, mob mentalities, and a general "us versus them" thought process that lends itself into arguments that show such bias at an exasperatingly quick rate. Which, in turn, would have nearly any site, any streamer, and video outright banning the discussion of such. A fair discussion full of passion, with some not being able to act as adults and whining (a "mother won't buy me candy" predicament you may see in stores, for both sides), and others scrutinizing another playstyle -- oft times both. Feeling like one is ignored when they have legitimate concerns or belief may even drive the most noble of retorts or debaters into a corner and adopt such policies.
What are the objective facts as we know them? That we are privy to? How are we able to understand anything without context, knowledge of specific topics (Namely law, copyright, video game industry, etc.) and actual numbers that can't be faked? In this thread, I'll try and lay things out bare as a person who has consistently bashed the current WoW and has played on these so called "private" servers.
What we know on the side of those who want Blizzard to Establish a Vanilla Server:
There was a popular server that tried to emulate the Vanilla experience There was a decent chunk of active players -- some say around 100k, and much more registered (around 800k?) that quick playing (Let's say, a 12% retention rate). There are claims that 100k is impressive when compared to the 5 million or so WoW subscribers currently (we've no real current numbers as they stopped giving them out). Someone who helped create the vanilla game has been used as a champion of people want it -- which usually means a force wasn't powerful enough to get the message out alone.
Some problems exist already with #3 in that people are assuming that the 100k concurrent users of Nost were subscribers on the current WoW. This is a problem, as WoW has reached -- as of 2014 -- 100,000,000 registered accounts. That is, it is much, much more likely that that vast majority of 100k concurrent users are not from the group that has even played current WoW in the last few expansions. The remaining of such likely being split between those who still do already pay -- and thus it will be harder to get more money from them -- and those who quit because of WoD (of which, we cannot say 100% of them quit because they Want WoW; on the contrary, you fill out why you leave when you cancel, and many cite a lack of content and the 15 month droughts -- especially how 6.2 was the only patch in WoD, and it was all rehashed save for the raid).
Then we have the usual boost for 3-5 million subscribers with the release of each new expansion. Which has consistently dipped as time went on, and content was no where to be seen.
Now, one may then logically assert that 100,000,000 registered users is a large pool and that many may want to come back if an official vanilla server was reinstated. But really, we have to break it down further.
Who liked: Vanilla TBC Wrath (The most popular by numbers and the recent MMO-Champion poll by a large margin; it was more than every expansion combined when I looked at it)
Who: Just made an account for the trial Didn't like the game at all Who quit because of any of the before mentioned expansions or games How many quit playing video games or MMOS in General (due to age or other circumstances) Out of 100,000,000 people approximately two years ago, they couldn't even break 1,000,000 signatures even with the support of Kern, the news, repeats / bots, etc.
Followed by the basic retention rates we've seen with the most popular Vanilla server of 12%.
Followed by those who love the lore of WoW and want to see more, not less, of the game
Followed by the fact that, even with the support of Kern and BBC news Network, only 200k signatures could be obtained. Of which we need to understand:
How many were bots? Repeat signatures? Even want to play again, and are just supporting friends who do Have never played Vanilla, but kept on hearing stories (most would not like how Vanilla was since they're so accustomed to today's MMO world) Those who are truly just captivated by nostalgia
Even cutting it in half to a generous 100,000, we further reduce that to the 12% retention (though even if we forget that % as rhetoric from only one source -- the most popular server itself, I will go into depth on this more in a bit as to why it's still suboptimal). While also considering that those who played on Pirate (or Private as the community says) servers likely did so because it was free. Many would expect the Vanilla server to be a part of the subscription service, which limits profitability even further.
This with the current problems that we are faced and must address:
People will expect perfection from a product they pay for The issues of copyright if a foreign party takes hold to negate the above That people will still expect a Blizzard Endorsed product to be solid -- which will conflict with the following.
Blizzard has stated that the old WoW is not longer accessible to them and that they'd have to do significant work to make it operational. In addition, they said that the old game would not even work on the new hardware they currently have, and they do not have the old hardware -- of which we can see of their many charity events and auctions of their old server blades and hardware of many years ago.
This would mean a lot of coding. A lot of work. New hardware. New Engineers. Sound people. More QA. More Space (another team). Hiring old developers to come back, who can remember the old code and the old, non-enhanced engine. As well as a host of other things that we likely cannot imagine. Bug testing. Fixes. A year of alpha and beta testing. All the while people -- current customers who are paying Blizzard -- are having a 15 month drought and no content updates. All the while expansions and patches are being pushed back due to WoW's manpower being split. They have hundred and hundreds of employees working on the game now. Hiring for the salary of potentially hundreds more could cost tens of millions -- especially experienced devs of 12 years ago -- for guesses built on nostalgia and limited numbers. By gamers who have a passion. How can anyone call this profitable? How can we say this is a sure thing? And is it good business to Ignore your current customer base for a bunch of may bes and "we promise we'll pay"s? The potential systematic halt of all content, all expansions for the sake of something old (if more developers aren't hired at astronomical costs). We've all heard the term "it will cost a raid tier"; this would likely cost an expansion.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
Let's take a look at the numbers and reasons of other games releasing "legacy" servers.
Everquest. Some 22 expansions later, subscriptions low. Comparatively small expansions with limited system and engine improvements and easier to create graphics due to age. It was a golden time to release the magic of the past. But, how well is it doing now? I'm genuinely asking as I don't know. If it's doing good, that's because enough time has past and it was a great time to do such. If they're doing bad with such a cult classic, then consider that this was with them doing it at a perfect time. Many went back to Everquest. They died to a skeleton within a few hours. It took them days to get to level five. The magic of community was likely gone (their friends from the past), or it wasn't what they remembered, or what they expected from a game of the "golden age" of MMOs.
FFXIV 1.0: Yoshi-P said they'd keep legacy servers up of 1.0 if it managed to maintain 30% of 10,000 or so subscribers that stayed with 1.0. In a poll, 35% of the people said they would continuously play 1.0. It was shut down within two months due to a fraction of that 35% even logging in -- even with access open to people who weren't originally subs.
To avoid further clutter of text by listing game after game, how will we guarantee it is worth tens or hundreds of millions to remake vanilla? Do we suggest that they create a new team as a whole and have them sell "Vanilla WoW" for $59.99 box price along with a $15 subscription on top of the 15% for live? $30 a month?
How many would not be outrage if they even suggested a box price by itself?
Make no mistake. An official Vanilla server IS coming. It will be here. Though only once WoW has reached the state of Everquest. When there is a definitive number of people who will absolutely pay for it versus subscribers and potential subscribers of new expansions. Which, to this day, we have no reason won't be another 8-10 million people coming back -- especially after watching the new WoW Movie and getting the live game for free as part of their rumored promotion (which comes with a free month and all the expansions up to WoD). But the whole "we have 200k" signatures is not cutting it. They'd have to get at least 20,000,000 for Blizzard to make the leap -- twice as many as came back for WoD to account for the repeats and bots. That, or wait for a time when the return subscribers is lower than 200,000 or whatever the signatures could get in a short amount of time (as waiting too long isn't feasible and doesn't instill confidence due to more tricks being able to be employed in that time).
Take a look at their new work with Diablo II and Warcraft III -- the designation of manpower towards those old games to bring back their majesty when purchases have been almost moot.
I'm 100% for the official Vanilla server if it didn't effect the current customer base (of which I'm not a part of -- Though I do have access to Alpha and see all the work they have yet to do and have already put in). I'd play it for a few weeks. Log in every now and again after that, if it were free. Though there are other servers out there that aren't well known.
Though just for the sake of fairness, let's take a look at some of the weaknesses of the above argument:
- We have no idea on what they say about old hardware and new software is true - Numbers on both sides are based on educated guesses and assumptions, deriving from original numbers that are facts such as "12.5 million subscribers, 100,000,000 accounts, 200,000 signatures" that have existing sources at the posting of this message. - We don't know the legalities of copyrights and trademarks and if what their lawyers are saying is true. - I write as a third party with no love of the current WoW and no hatred of those who have a passion for old content that I'd like to see back, as well. - As per the above, I have little connection with current communities -- both on live, and on Nost (of which it is a server that I did not play in). Therefore, they may be bigger than the signatures let on.
Irregardless of the above, the prominent truth of the matter is that we do not know. We do not know if it will be profitable -- circumstantial evidence is against it, even if personal feelings strong disagree. When faced with such a conundrum, the obvious thing would be to look for answers elsewhere: Where does the law stand? If that fails, or in light of that, to make sure you always take care of your current customer base rather than the ones that abandon you and oft make fun of you for your decisions.
My heart is with the Vanilla server, but my mind and pragmatic nature to business and customer service is with the current fanbase / patrons of the company. It'd be a nice gift to old patrons -- but a risky one while WoW is in the state that it is. It's a real tough situation. If the game is doing well and has a lot of content, they'd want to maintain their cash flow. If it's doing bad with little content, then the current players will be upset if they focus on anything else. It has to crash astronomically or be a sublime success to the point where money and time is no issue at all.
That, or the new "Pristine" servers whereby they have a working version of the game that can just be missing features such as heirlooms, LFR, LFG, etc.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
Isn't the problem with legacy servers that we know the game will eventually just turn into the current game again since it follows the same expansion progression? And if it stops before a certain expansion isn't the problem that we know eventually we will hit a wall and never be able to do anything new in the game?
That's not what a legacy server is... a legacy server runs the game as it was when it was released. There will be no expansions applied to it. Vanilla WoW remains vanilla WoW. The only thing that is applied to it is the very same patches that were released up until the next expansion was due to hit. In another words, there is no pre-expansion patch, it stops progressing. So for vanilla WoW, you would start with release day version and eventually stop when the original Naxrammas was released.
A legacy TBC server would start at release day (post vanilla WoW) and stop just prior to the pre-expansion patch, so Sunwell Plateau.
So on and so forth. The purists would also say it doesn't include nerf patches designed to make the content (i.e. raids/dungeons) easier to access... for example in TBC, you couldn't progress to Hyjal Summit without first clearing Tempest Keep and Serpentshrine Cavern first. Basically you had to complete an attunement that required downing the final boss in said raids.
And yes, when you finish the game, you in fact finish it. Like most other games. The replay value is in the alternate leveling paths and class quests. Back in the day these were far more numerous than they are now.
Remember, those old games you dust off from time to time to play are no different than when you originally played them. You already know how to play it and yet it's still satisfying to play nonetheless.
250K is not significant enough for blizzard, sorry.
It would be silly to think that, that's the only metric that Blizzard is using in their decision making. We can also make all the assumptions we want about what those metrics say.
250K is not significant enough for blizzard, sorry.
It would be silly to think that, that's the only metric that Blizzard is using in their decision making. We can also make all the assumptions we want about what those metrics say.
At this point, given the response sent out earlier today, the metrics do not seem to support the notion of legacy servers. Whether or not that will change in the next few years will remain to be seen.
What is it with people wanting to go backwards. If we never made any strive to go forward, can you imagine where we would be?
Whilst a valid point, it is also worth noting that "going forwards" does always mean "improving". Change is not always for the better. Sometimes it really is worth admitting that that new do-dad thingy didn't work out and roll it back.
I'm not saying that everything is worse now in WoW, just that "new" != "better".
I can agree with that. Absolutely 100% newer doesn't always equal better. That is a very true statement. But for the most part WoW has improved leaps and bounds from vanilla. I remember the launch, man was that a cluster fuck. Sure some things have lost their appeal. I enjoyed taming rare pets that had some cool stats and the like. But like all things that moved on to pet families and all that. But it was just something that moved forward. I guess that is why most if not all MMO boxes say "Online experience may change".
As someone whos keep playing the current WoW if u believe that in total WoW is a better game, then u are beyond dellusional. You have some improved game mechanics that help u slightly with your expierience and i will agree that some of them are mandatory. But in general the game has gotten worse. non-existant community downgrade of the sole reason on being into guilds major aspects of any MMORPG.Non existant world PvP. Pathetic proffesions with mats that can be aquired in garissons, non-existant individuality in classes with no unique buffs and many other.
I'm allowed my opinion, just as you are allowed yours. Things I enjoy don't have to be the same thing you enjoy. I enjoy WoW in its state right now. And that community you talk about was one of the most toxic communities to ever hit an MMO. I still remember the insults about "raping my mother" and so forth. So no don't tell me the community has suffered, at least now when I play I don't really have to put up with insults such as that, or at least not on a regular basis.
I don't care nor have I ever cared about PvP, so it being non-existent has no bearing on me. And I quite enjoy I don't have to go all over ten buck two to get my mats, as I've said I like garrisons, so that aspect doesn't bother me. As I've said before, I enjoyed somethings about the old mechanics, the taming of unique pets. But other than that I don't miss vanilla. So yes, in my opinion I enjoy the WoW of today. That doesn't make me delusional. It makes me have a different opinion than yourself.
ANd u just prove my point why u are dellusional. I was never specific, of course there things that differ in terms of enjoyment.
But i talked about core elemetns of every MMORPG.
And this is Class individuality--- actuall game community, which is non existant currently----World PVP.
SO dont play the ''opinions differ'' card on me by sprouting an insident u had about your mother in /all chat lmfao.
PLaying since end of 2004, community was generally pretty solid and if someone ever said something like that in general chat(which makes me believe u propably havent played vanilla or tbc) he would have been front page at the full crowded server forums with his name as '''wanted''. No guilds no groups nor everyone would ever sociate with him after such an incident. Because it WAS an actuall game community back then
I'm of the opinion that Blizzard internally has WoW on end of life status. Basically keep what subs you can, but make no efforts to increase that number. Reduce costs as much as possible, release only as much content as is necessary to show the game is "moving forward".
IMO Blizzard is 100% behind Overwatch and anything else is just being relegated to life support.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
I'm curious also, let's for the sake say it is 250k that would sign up, that's just under 4 million a month in revenue. Operating costs are pretty low these days for MMOs. I know back around 2007 they were making roughly 70 cents on the dollars, and operating costs were much higher then than now. So, even taking that number, we're talking around 3million/month in profit. Now, I recognize there are some upfront costs associated with having to set up and recreate vanilla servers, but those costs would be outweighed easily by the money they would bring in from additional subscriptions.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Awww 800k ... seems only 230k care enough to sign in all this time , after every web site on the internet was begged and spammed , with people signing multiple times and still only 230k ...
ATVI realizes what these sigs represent , and its no where near enough to garner there attention , to divert resources to such a trivial amount of people who were yes .. Stealing or choose to support those stealing ... So yes by signing a petition to support thieves .. well if you lay down with a Ho your just another ho ...
And if you dont like the job im doing ,, report it to my boss.... Ohh thats me ..
Good Day sir ..
Work by yourself no doubt.
Since you seem so well versed and eloquent about it, Let me take a stab at it: Ho ?
so weak .. ... get your own material .... Cant seem to produce a thought of yer own heh meatpuppet ..
Now you have had your 15 min of fame and got a response from Blizz..... Its over...
Now shuffle off and go buy Legion ..
Actually, the ones with the weak argument are the ones who start slinging insults. Funny how I've predicted Blizzards actions with this issue a lot more closely than you have Mr Blizzard Stockholder.
Being a business owner myself, I know the value in respecting my customers.
Yes .. more brilliance , it must be a club ..
Thieves get no respect ... Or let me guess, if on of your employess was stealing your merchadise and selling out the back door , You would reward him with a new desk to do it at ... lmfao .. get agrip
Actually, laserit is correct. He's been consistently on the right side of this whereas you have been ... well not so right. In fact, if I were to follow your posts I could probably predict what's going to happen by assuming the opposite of your prognostications. Say .... you're not on the WoW dev team are you? Because that would explain a lot.
really .. prove it .. All i have ..
Is 1.. Blizz will not even consider diverting resoureces to a vanilla project for 12-18 months after legion data .................. Correct ..
2. AVTI .. investors are happy with AVTI progress and direction ... true
3. AVTI continues to see growth .... true
4... You will not Get Vanilla servers .. imo .... to be determined ... lol
5... Free Nos were a bunch of thieves .. true ..
Now show me ... you cant ...
No really, are you on the dev team?
I realize you are working with everything God gave you , and its a disadvantage but try harder, stay diligent and fight the good fight , And if you find that 4 leaf clover , rub yer rabbits foot ,hang a horseshoe over your door , and spread magic fairy dust on yer wings , That one day you will get to skin a Hog in Vanilla Wow again and all your lifes Biggest goals and wishes will be achieved......
It's a yes or no question. I don't know how to dumb it down any further. If you're on the WoW dev team you probably do, but I don't possess that gift; sorry.
Serious disconnect between the keyboard and your brain , everytime you respond you seem more dimwitted than before , its really amazing ... Now let me help you ... Pretend this thread is a delicious trail of fuggin Jelly Beans .. Now follow them........ there ya go ..... you see that one ...NOoo not that one ... ... yea that one right there .. Where i state i work for myself ... I am so proud of you .. I knew you could follow a conversation .. So proud to see you come so far ...
ohh FFS no wonder you strive so hard for a Game ... simple things well ya know the rest .. ... I think
I'm of the opinion that Blizzard internally has WoW on end of life status. Basically keep what subs you can, but make no efforts to increase that number. Reduce costs as much as possible, release only as much content as is necessary to show the game is "moving forward".
IMO Blizzard is 100% behind Overwatch and anything else is just being relegated to life support.
That seems to be the case to me as well. Of course they'll continue to make what they can off of WOW, yet they have plenty of other successful franchises to move forward with as well as things such as Overwatch.
This isn't SOE/DB, who is/was floundering around trying to find their way forward or back into relevance. This is one of the most stable operations in gaming, if they had an interest in doing this, they'd just do it, there wouldn't be a need for a million threads on whether they will, or why they won't. They'd just release it and be done with it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
250K is not significant enough for blizzard, sorry.
It would be silly to think that, that's the only metric that Blizzard is using in their decision making. We can also make all the assumptions we want about what those metrics say.
At this point, given the response sent out earlier today, the metrics do not seem to support the notion of legacy servers. Whether or not that will change in the next few years will remain to be seen.
Maybe:
Personally for me it seems to be more a case of a biding some time. Getting some heads together.
Statements like:
"One other note - we’ve recently been in contact with some of the folks who operated Nostalrius. They obviously care deeply about the game, and we look forward to more conversations with them in the coming weeks."
I'm of the opinion that Blizzard internally has WoW on end of life status. Basically keep what subs you can, but make no efforts to increase that number. Reduce costs as much as possible, release only as much content as is necessary to show the game is "moving forward".
IMO Blizzard is 100% behind Overwatch and anything else is just being relegated to life support.
That seems to be the case to me as well. Of course they'll continue to make what they can off of WOW, yet they have plenty of other successful franchises to move forward with as well as things such as Overwatch.
This isn't SOE/DB, who is/was floundering around trying to find their way forward or back into relevance. This is one of the most stable operations in gaming, if they had an interest in doing this, they'd just do it, there wouldn't be a need for a million threads on whether they will, or why they won't. They'd just release it and be done with it.
Agreed as well -- Blizzard pretty much said somewhere (gotta try to find it) that they were moving in new directions, to leaner teams creating products at a faster pace. Hearthstone. Overwatch. Heroes of the Storm. All with small, lean teams that pump out new content regularly and games that can take advantage of the huge profit to be made in eSports.
WoW's days are numbered but what a ride it's been. No matter where you stand on the issue of legacy / classic / private / pirate servers, we've all had our affair with World of Warcraft. I wouldn't trade those days for anything.
What is it with people wanting to go backwards. If we never made any strive to go forward, can you imagine where we would be?
Whilst a valid point, it is also worth noting that "going forwards" does always mean "improving". Change is not always for the better. Sometimes it really is worth admitting that that new do-dad thingy didn't work out and roll it back.
I'm not saying that everything is worse now in WoW, just that "new" != "better".
I can agree with that. Absolutely 100% newer doesn't always equal better. That is a very true statement. But for the most part WoW has improved leaps and bounds from vanilla. I remember the launch, man was that a cluster fuck. Sure some things have lost their appeal. I enjoyed taming rare pets that had some cool stats and the like. But like all things that moved on to pet families and all that. But it was just something that moved forward. I guess that is why most if not all MMO boxes say "Online experience may change".
As someone whos keep playing the current WoW if u believe that in total WoW is a better game, then u are beyond dellusional. You have some improved game mechanics that help u slightly with your expierience and i will agree that some of them are mandatory. But in general the game has gotten worse. non-existant community downgrade of the sole reason on being into guilds major aspects of any MMORPG.Non existant world PvP. Pathetic proffesions with mats that can be aquired in garissons, non-existant individuality in classes with no unique buffs and many other.
I'm allowed my opinion, just as you are allowed yours. Things I enjoy don't have to be the same thing you enjoy. I enjoy WoW in its state right now. And that community you talk about was one of the most toxic communities to ever hit an MMO. I still remember the insults about "raping my mother" and so forth. So no don't tell me the community has suffered, at least now when I play I don't really have to put up with insults such as that, or at least not on a regular basis.
I don't care nor have I ever cared about PvP, so it being non-existent has no bearing on me. And I quite enjoy I don't have to go all over ten buck two to get my mats, as I've said I like garrisons, so that aspect doesn't bother me. As I've said before, I enjoyed somethings about the old mechanics, the taming of unique pets. But other than that I don't miss vanilla. So yes, in my opinion I enjoy the WoW of today. That doesn't make me delusional. It makes me have a different opinion than yourself.
ANd u just prove my point why u are dellusional. I was never specific, of course there things that differ in terms of enjoyment.
But i talked about core elemetns of every MMORPG.
And this is Class individuality--- actuall game community, which is non existant currently----World PVP.
SO dont play the ''opinions differ'' card on me by sprouting an insident u had about your mother in /all chat lmfao.
PLaying since end of 2004, community was generally pretty solid and if someone ever said something like that in general chat(which makes me believe u propably havent played vanilla or tbc) he would have been front page at the full crowded server forums with his name as '''wanted''. No guilds no groups nor everyone would ever sociate with him after such an incident. Because it WAS an actuall game community back then
Again I have my opinion of what I enjoy and you have yours. Don't get upset that my opinion differs from yours. And yes I did play vanilla and I was there when BC launched, thank you. I was actually picked to do closed beta test for WoW, so don't insult me and act as if everyone that disagrees with you hasn't played vanilla WoW or lying to make some agenda.
You act as if you know me. You don't. And yes, plenty of people made crude insults. You can say as you like I know what this game community was like. It has gotten a bit better but not by leaps and bounds. The only good community was in your guild. This community was so bad, it was actually the discussion of several topics for people. Barrens chat comes to mind.
You obviously dont have an opinion and it sad that u are propably following someone's agenda. Because i did asnwer with facts and u keep saying something about a random incident in all chat to prove a point a of yours, which we supposedly have to believe that actually happened. THere was a community back then and if u played at that time u would know that if u do something like that u were a 'dead man'' in the specific server''. Now its actually easier to get away with verbal abuse because people dont even bother
It's a yes or no question. I don't know how to dumb it down any further. If you're on the WoW dev team you probably do, but I don't possess that gift; sorry.
Serious disconnect between the keyboard and your brain , everytime you respond you seem more dimwitted than before , its really amazing ... Now let me help you ... Pretend this thread is a delicious trail of fuggin Jelly Beans .. Now follow them........ there ya go ..... you see that one ...NOoo not that one ... ... yea that one right there .. Where i state i work for myself ... I am so proud of you .. I knew you could follow a conversation .. So proud to see you come so far ...
ohh FFS no wonder you strive so hard for a Game ... simple things well ya know the rest .. ... I think
Why is any of this rhetoric necessary?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
I might find I am looking at the past through rose colored glasses, but many of my issues with the game stem from the huge mistakes made because they listened to a small vocal minority when making cataclysm, that they never really recovered from.
Cataclysm, the sundering of Azeroth, it really was the end of the world for them. Think about it, accounts left in droves, the world has changed into something completely different from what it was (both in the map design and the gaming environment) Maybe if they did something like this they would have an opportunity to revisit what worked in WOTLK that let them have 12 million subs THAT STAYED ALMOST THE WHOLE XPAC, and implement some of those concepts in not legion, that is going to be a lost cause, but the next one (assuming there is one)
My Thoughts on Content Locust
All those choosing to hide behind "but ... it's the law!" also choose to ignore the massive differences in play style and systems created through each dramatically different launch of each expansion. Blizzard chose to developed a new version each expansion that now proves to exist as individual entities with each drawing it's own audience.
Today we are only left with one official version of Wow ... one. When reality reveals each expansion was nearly entirely it's own game. This is why Vanilla players love vanilla ... because it is static and will never change beyond it's scope! They love TBC because it is static and will never change beyond it's scope. They love WotLK because it is static and will never change beyond it's scope. I hope people are getting the picture here.
How long have people who never played an emulator played Vanilla retail or TBC or WotLK? The answer can only be maximum as long as it was live ... and no longer because it then vanished from the world. Dramatic system change choices forever altered core game design principles. Blizzard chose to do this. Blizzard chose to create this entire mess themselves.
You are DAMN right it is up to them to resolve the demand THEY created. Wow earned BILLIONS! Do you think the current retail Wow is a game reflecting a budget of billions? So not only do the fans of Wow versions vanished from the world have to live without the game they helped build make Blizzard what it is today but they have to live with the fact their money went to entirely different genres they don't play to pad the wallets of investors. Is a fan not an investor? I've seen individual players invest thousands into a game over time simply because the love it and this means nothing to Blizzard apparently. They will drop their own fan base in a heartbeat so their investors can make 1.492% more profit next quarter. THIS is the law some of you defend?
You are ignorant fools if you do. Laws are meant to be changed and is the consumer who ultimately has the power hence why this debate even exists and responses are given and conversations progressed. Sit behind the ignorance you thing bliss but for those unwilling to enter the debate. I call you for what you are: fools and the victims of the future.
You stay sassy!
Their mistakes only really got more severe by compounding over time to narrow the game continuously and retcon things into a very alien and nonsensical form.
Having a rollback server and progression server wouldn't really fix the expansion content, but it at least offers the chance to play a version of WoW that wasn't so dramatically skewed either.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I would have loved to have seen that.
Outland as a third faction.
Would be really fun to theorycraft.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
You have some improved game mechanics that help u slightly with your expierience and i will agree that some of them are mandatory. But in general the game has gotten worse. non-existant community downgrade of the sole reason on being into guilds major aspects of any MMORPG.Non existant world PvP. Pathetic proffesions with mats that can be aquired in garissons, non-existant individuality in classes with no unique buffs and many other.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
The discussion of a Vanilla server is one that is filled with bias.
The bias from losing something. The bias from nostalgia. The bias of "what ifs". The bias of believing in fantasy when ignoring reality. Indeed, the latter is especially true in various circumstances, where one side or both, or all are so blinded, so caught up in their own little world that they forget about subjective thoughts and objective facts. This in addition to conspiracy theories, mob mentalities, and a general "us versus them" thought process that lends itself into arguments that show such bias at an exasperatingly quick rate. Which, in turn, would have nearly any site, any streamer, and video outright banning the discussion of such. A fair discussion full of passion, with some not being able to act as adults and whining (a "mother won't buy me candy" predicament you may see in stores, for both sides), and others scrutinizing another playstyle -- oft times both. Feeling like one is ignored when they have legitimate concerns or belief may even drive the most noble of retorts or debaters into a corner and adopt such policies.
What are the objective facts as we know them? That we are privy to? How are we able to understand anything without context, knowledge of specific topics (Namely law, copyright, video game industry, etc.) and actual numbers that can't be faked? In this thread, I'll try and lay things out bare as a person who has consistently bashed the current WoW and has played on these so called "private" servers.
What we know on the side of those who want Blizzard to Establish a Vanilla Server:
There was a popular server that tried to emulate the Vanilla experience
There was a decent chunk of active players -- some say around 100k, and much more registered (around 800k?) that quick playing (Let's say, a 12% retention rate).
There are claims that 100k is impressive when compared to the 5 million or so WoW subscribers currently (we've no real current numbers as they stopped giving them out).
Someone who helped create the vanilla game has been used as a champion of people want it -- which usually means a force wasn't powerful enough to get the message out alone.
Some problems exist already with #3 in that people are assuming that the 100k concurrent users of Nost were subscribers on the current WoW. This is a problem, as WoW has reached -- as of 2014 -- 100,000,000 registered accounts. That is, it is much, much more likely that that vast majority of 100k concurrent users are not from the group that has even played current WoW in the last few expansions. The remaining of such likely being split between those who still do already pay -- and thus it will be harder to get more money from them -- and those who quit because of WoD (of which, we cannot say 100% of them quit because they Want WoW; on the contrary, you fill out why you leave when you cancel, and many cite a lack of content and the 15 month droughts -- especially how 6.2 was the only patch in WoD, and it was all rehashed save for the raid).
Then we have the usual boost for 3-5 million subscribers with the release of each new expansion. Which has consistently dipped as time went on, and content was no where to be seen.
Now, one may then logically assert that 100,000,000 registered users is a large pool and that many may want to come back if an official vanilla server was reinstated. But really, we have to break it down further.
Who liked:
Vanilla
TBC
Wrath (The most popular by numbers and the recent MMO-Champion poll by a large margin; it was more than every expansion combined when I looked at it)
Who:
Just made an account for the trial
Didn't like the game at all
Who quit because of any of the before mentioned expansions or games
How many quit playing video games or MMOS in General (due to age or other circumstances)
Out of 100,000,000 people approximately two years ago, they couldn't even break 1,000,000 signatures even with the support of Kern, the news, repeats / bots, etc.
Followed by the basic retention rates we've seen with the most popular Vanilla server of 12%.
Followed by those who love the lore of WoW and want to see more, not less, of the game
Followed by the fact that, even with the support of Kern and BBC news Network, only 200k signatures could be obtained. Of which we need to understand:
How many were bots?
Repeat signatures?
Even want to play again, and are just supporting friends who do
Have never played Vanilla, but kept on hearing stories (most would not like how Vanilla was since they're so accustomed to today's MMO world)
Those who are truly just captivated by nostalgia
Even cutting it in half to a generous 100,000, we further reduce that to the 12% retention (though even if we forget that % as rhetoric from only one source -- the most popular server itself, I will go into depth on this more in a bit as to why it's still suboptimal). While also considering that those who played on Pirate (or Private as the community says) servers likely did so because it was free. Many would expect the Vanilla server to be a part of the subscription service, which limits profitability even further.
This with the current problems that we are faced and must address:
People will expect perfection from a product they pay for
The issues of copyright if a foreign party takes hold to negate the above
That people will still expect a Blizzard Endorsed product to be solid -- which will conflict with the following.
Blizzard has stated that the old WoW is not longer accessible to them and that they'd have to do significant work to make it operational. In addition, they said that the old game would not even work on the new hardware they currently have, and they do not have the old hardware -- of which we can see of their many charity events and auctions of their old server blades and hardware of many years ago.
This would mean a lot of coding. A lot of work. New hardware. New Engineers. Sound people. More QA. More Space (another team). Hiring old developers to come back, who can remember the old code and the old, non-enhanced engine. As well as a host of other things that we likely cannot imagine. Bug testing. Fixes. A year of alpha and beta testing. All the while people -- current customers who are paying Blizzard -- are having a 15 month drought and no content updates. All the while expansions and patches are being pushed back due to WoW's manpower being split. They have hundred and hundreds of employees working on the game now. Hiring for the salary of potentially hundreds more could cost tens of millions -- especially experienced devs of 12 years ago -- for guesses built on nostalgia and limited numbers. By gamers who have a passion. How can anyone call this profitable? How can we say this is a sure thing? And is it good business to Ignore your current customer base for a bunch of may bes and "we promise we'll pay"s? The potential systematic halt of all content, all expansions for the sake of something old (if more developers aren't hired at astronomical costs). We've all heard the term "it will cost a raid tier"; this would likely cost an expansion.
Is this feasible? Or is this selfish?
--- Post #2 to follow ---
Let's take a look at the numbers and reasons of other games releasing "legacy" servers.
Everquest. Some 22 expansions later, subscriptions low. Comparatively small expansions with limited system and engine improvements and easier to create graphics due to age. It was a golden time to release the magic of the past. But, how well is it doing now? I'm genuinely asking as I don't know. If it's doing good, that's because enough time has past and it was a great time to do such. If they're doing bad with such a cult classic, then consider that this was with them doing it at a perfect time. Many went back to Everquest. They died to a skeleton within a few hours. It took them days to get to level five. The magic of community was likely gone (their friends from the past), or it wasn't what they remembered, or what they expected from a game of the "golden age" of MMOs.
FFXIV 1.0: Yoshi-P said they'd keep legacy servers up of 1.0 if it managed to maintain 30% of 10,000 or so subscribers that stayed with 1.0. In a poll, 35% of the people said they would continuously play 1.0. It was shut down within two months due to a fraction of that 35% even logging in -- even with access open to people who weren't originally subs.
To avoid further clutter of text by listing game after game, how will we guarantee it is worth tens or hundreds of millions to remake vanilla? Do we suggest that they create a new team as a whole and have them sell "Vanilla WoW" for $59.99 box price along with a $15 subscription on top of the 15% for live? $30 a month?
How many would not be outrage if they even suggested a box price by itself?
Make no mistake. An official Vanilla server IS coming. It will be here. Though only once WoW has reached the state of Everquest. When there is a definitive number of people who will absolutely pay for it versus subscribers and potential subscribers of new expansions. Which, to this day, we have no reason won't be another 8-10 million people coming back -- especially after watching the new WoW Movie and getting the live game for free as part of their rumored promotion (which comes with a free month and all the expansions up to WoD). But the whole "we have 200k" signatures is not cutting it. They'd have to get at least 20,000,000 for Blizzard to make the leap -- twice as many as came back for WoD to account for the repeats and bots. That, or wait for a time when the return subscribers is lower than 200,000 or whatever the signatures could get in a short amount of time (as waiting too long isn't feasible and doesn't instill confidence due to more tricks being able to be employed in that time).
Take a look at their new work with Diablo II and Warcraft III -- the designation of manpower towards those old games to bring back their majesty when purchases have been almost moot.
I'm 100% for the official Vanilla server if it didn't effect the current customer base (of which I'm not a part of -- Though I do have access to Alpha and see all the work they have yet to do and have already put in). I'd play it for a few weeks. Log in every now and again after that, if it were free. Though there are other servers out there that aren't well known.
Though just for the sake of fairness, let's take a look at some of the weaknesses of the above argument:
- We have no idea on what they say about old hardware and new software is true
- Numbers on both sides are based on educated guesses and assumptions, deriving from original numbers that are facts such as "12.5 million subscribers, 100,000,000 accounts, 200,000 signatures" that have existing sources at the posting of this message.
- We don't know the legalities of copyrights and trademarks and if what their lawyers are saying is true.
- I write as a third party with no love of the current WoW and no hatred of those who have a passion for old content that I'd like to see back, as well.
- As per the above, I have little connection with current communities -- both on live, and on Nost (of which it is a server that I did not play in). Therefore, they may be bigger than the signatures let on.
Irregardless of the above, the prominent truth of the matter is that we do not know. We do not know if it will be profitable -- circumstantial evidence is against it, even if personal feelings strong disagree. When faced with such a conundrum, the obvious thing would be to look for answers elsewhere: Where does the law stand? If that fails, or in light of that, to make sure you always take care of your current customer base rather than the ones that abandon you and oft make fun of you for your decisions.
My heart is with the Vanilla server, but my mind and pragmatic nature to business and customer service is with the current fanbase / patrons of the company. It'd be a nice gift to old patrons -- but a risky one while WoW is in the state that it is. It's a real tough situation. If the game is doing well and has a lot of content, they'd want to maintain their cash flow. If it's doing bad with little content, then the current players will be upset if they focus on anything else. It has to crash astronomically or be a sublime success to the point where money and time is no issue at all.
That, or the new "Pristine" servers whereby they have a working version of the game that can just be missing features such as heirlooms, LFR, LFG, etc.
A legacy TBC server would start at release day (post vanilla WoW) and stop just prior to the pre-expansion patch, so Sunwell Plateau.
So on and so forth. The purists would also say it doesn't include nerf patches designed to make the content (i.e. raids/dungeons) easier to access... for example in TBC, you couldn't progress to Hyjal Summit without first clearing Tempest Keep and Serpentshrine Cavern first. Basically you had to complete an attunement that required downing the final boss in said raids.
And yes, when you finish the game, you in fact finish it. Like most other games. The replay value is in the alternate leveling paths and class quests. Back in the day these were far more numerous than they are now.
Remember, those old games you dust off from time to time to play are no different than when you originally played them. You already know how to play it and yet it's still satisfying to play nonetheless.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But i talked about core elemetns of every MMORPG.
And this is Class individuality--- actuall game community, which is non existant currently----World PVP.
SO dont play the ''opinions differ'' card on me by sprouting an insident u had about your mother in /all chat lmfao.
PLaying since end of 2004, community was generally pretty solid and if someone ever said something like that in general chat(which makes me believe u propably havent played vanilla or tbc) he would have been front page at the full crowded server forums with his name as '''wanted''. No guilds no groups nor everyone would ever sociate with him after such an incident. Because it WAS an actuall game community back then
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm of the opinion that Blizzard internally has WoW on end of life status. Basically keep what subs you can, but make no efforts to increase that number. Reduce costs as much as possible, release only as much content as is necessary to show the game is "moving forward".
IMO Blizzard is 100% behind Overwatch and anything else is just being relegated to life support.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
ohh FFS no wonder you strive so hard for a Game ... simple things well ya know the rest .. ... I think
This isn't SOE/DB, who is/was floundering around trying to find their way forward or back into relevance. This is one of the most stable operations in gaming, if they had an interest in doing this, they'd just do it, there wouldn't be a need for a million threads on whether they will, or why they won't. They'd just release it and be done with it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Personally for me it seems to be more a case of a biding some time. Getting some heads together.
Statements like:
"One other note - we’ve recently been in contact with some of the folks who operated Nostalrius. They obviously care deeply about the game, and we look forward to more conversations with them in the coming weeks."
Leave me with that impression.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
WoW's days are numbered but what a ride it's been. No matter where you stand on the issue of legacy / classic / private / pirate servers, we've all had our affair with World of Warcraft. I wouldn't trade those days for anything.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
THere was a community back then and if u played at that time u would know that if u do something like that u were a 'dead man'' in the specific server''. Now its actually easier to get away with verbal abuse because people dont even bother
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson