Should player skill or character skills matter more in an MMORPG?

Blurry.Face

Fairly straightforward, what should be considered the linchpin upon which a game session revolves, the player's abilities or the character's?

waynejr2

Ah the old debate.  Well, if I am playing an RPG then I am playing a character.  I can't cast a fireball but my wizard can.   Also, I don't need the ego stroke of OMG look how great I am player skill is most important stuff.

SpottyGekko

In a MMO, it's perfectly acceptable to have player skill be the dominant feature.

But in a MMORPG, the character and their abilities is the important thing.

Andel_Skaar

Both, but player is the one it all depends on.

If the learning curve is too easy and skills oversimplified, most players will hit a wall where their skills are far better than the possibility to reflect them onto the character, and thus the competetive part will depend on other factors like luck, ping etc.

Enough complexity in combat ingame allows players to reflect their thoughts which at the same time presents challenging factor and fun if the combat feels fluid.

lunawisp

Depends to some extent on what sort of skill we're talking about. I've noticed a lot of things these days relying on players doing things in a particular order at a particular speed. The problem with putting a lot of this on the player is that we connect to these games via the internet and, every so often, you get little lag spikes. If your skill involves precise timing, you could quite easily fail through no fault of your own.

Kyleran

MMORPGs have traditionally been about efforts by the player to improve their avatar in game. 

Recently they've moved more towards an action model where player skill behind keyboard (or how well they macro) is more the focus.

I prefer the more old school approach partly because, Im old so lighting quick reflexes I don't have.

But also I enjoy building my character's levels, skills, and gear and prefer they overshadow player "skillz" in the scheme of thing.

pantheron

What is the point of an MMORPG if everyone has normalized stats and balanced  skills? If you want a highly balanced, competitive game to show off your skills as a player, there are tons of them out there. I'd rather my character be more important, than the skills I as a gamer have. 

BitterClinger

I did a whole video on the subject, so of course I believe it is character skill. I also fully understand that combat systems and game mechanics designed to be more tactical and strategic don't appeal to the majority of gamers.

Quirhid

BitterClinger said:

I did a whole video on the subject, so of course I believe it is character skill. I also fully understand that combat systems and game mechanics designed to be more tactical and strategic don't appeal to the majority of gamers.

Tactics and strategy are part of player skill.

SlyLoK

In an (MMO)RPG I believe that character skills should be the biggest factor. The influx of all these action MMOs recently have dumb down the aspect of character growth to a sad sad level.

BitterClinger

Quirhid said:

BitterClinger said:

I did a whole video on the subject, so of course I believe it is character skill. I also fully understand that combat systems and game mechanics designed to be more tactical and strategic don't appeal to the majority of gamers.

Tactics and strategy are part of player skill.

Yes they are... but not too many games add mechanics to challenge those particular player skills, especially when it comes to combat.

Velifax

SpottyGekko said:

In a MMO, it's perfectly acceptable to have player skill be the dominant feature.

But in a MMORPG, the character and their abilities is the important thing.

Actually, I'd be rather disappointed if, throughout my gaming life, there hadn't been a good selection of both. MMO ARPG is just as important as MMO RPG. And of course these days we have many excellent examples of both player and avatar skill being crucial, in the same game.

jazz.be

I don't see why it can't or shouldn't be both.
You as a player has to be good at playing the character correctly.
But if with skill you mean reflexes, button smash and combos then definately the character. I don't like how MMORPG's have turned into button smashing sports. We will all die too early, mark my words  

GrumpyHobbit

If it is an MMORPG (RPG being the most important part) then it is the characters skills that are more important then the players. The player needs to choose what the character does. How the character does it is dependent on the character skills. 

anemo

In an RPG it's acceptable that a character has a good chance of losing before the battle starts.   In a single player RPG you have the option of leveling out of the problem, gearing up, or side/alt questing out.   In an MMO you have the option of using friends/allies to get out the the problem.

In an Arcade game you have the option of "get gud", and using AI/Physics/Core-Mechanics to solve problems.

In an RTS/TBS game you have the option of changing strategy, in some cases "get gud" can matter, sometimes you change how you interact with AI/players,  or you need to learn your tech-tree/build order.

__________

I'm actually kind of happy that there are starting to be other types of MMO's instead of just MMORPGs.    Not because I want to play them, but because it will take the people who want to play an MMO that's not an RPG can do that now.   Which means that developers who are making an mmoRPG don't/can't target those people any more, allow them to make something that's a little bit more pure.

Cyrael

SpottyGekko said:

In a MMO, it's perfectly acceptable to have player skill be the dominant feature.

But in a MMORPG, the character and their abilities is the important thing.

  Quoting as it sums up my thoughts exactly.

Wizardry

The ONLY player skill right now is twitching the direction and aim keys,that would hardly justify as being skill.So i prefer to see skills with the character choices and not keyboard or gear related.

d_20

I don't think there is an overarching "should" here that applies to all mmorpgs. Both methods are valid depending on the game and the audience.

People with twitch skills and less patience will probably prefer more player-skill based games. (This is my generalization, but I will say "younger gamers.") 

People who want to sink a lot of time into a game, who don't mind grinding and gradually developing their character, who want to think about long-term character development strategies, monitor cool downs in tactical situations, etc. will prefer character skill. These characteristics seem to me to be more common among older people.

However, I dislike character-skill based game design where high level characters can flaunt their power over low level characters. WoW pvp for example. If you want a game with open world pvp and no safe zones, then the game "should" be more player skill based, in my opinion.

Octagon7711

Hard to say.  A great player is gimped by a bad or overly nerfed character.  An op character can allow even a bad player to have god mode.  There is no separation in divine mind, everythings connected.

thinktank001

Blurry.Face said:

Fairly straightforward, what should be considered the linchpin upon which a game session revolves, the player's abilities or the character's?

Considering that you stated character ability as the opposite end of the choice, then I can only assume you mean " twitch " combat for player ability, since strategy and tactics are internally connected with character ability.    If this is the case, then there really isn't a question at all in the MMORPG genre.

MMOman101

Why not have both.  More than one way to play and there are so many games. Different strokes for different folks. 

mmoguy43

MMORPGs tend to have character progression as the core focus of the game. Even in actiony MMORPGs while player skill is half of what matters, the character's skill still matters more.

rodingo

If I'm playing the game mainly for PVP then I prefer my actual skill to be the deciding factor if I when or lose.  If I'm playing just to PVE then I don't care either way.

Jonnyp2

It should be a balance of everything.  The biggest issue is that there is so much information available these days that most aspects of mmos outside of twitch skills are irrelevant.

We can use wow as an example... In vanilla and early expansions there were so many people running around with horrible specs, extremely inefficient dps rotations, unoptomized gear, no keybinds, etc.  Now there are just so many guides available to hold your hand through everything.  It does make for higher quality gameplay, but I miss figuring things out myself and gaining a huge advantage because of it.  

I mean the hearthstone expansion came out a couple days ago, I came up with some decks and tested them in ranked.  Even at low ranks it was about 80% fotm net decks.  By the time I got to 10 it felt like every single player copied their deck.  Like 3 days into an expansion and almost every serious player has copied their decks...wtf.

Unfortunately I don't see any way around the spread of information.  If you make a game too complicated most of these players won't even play.  An online game with low population is no fun.

ceratop001

Each character should be equally hard or easy depending on the game. No class should have an advantage based on skills. Skills should be practiced and perfected by the player.

Dullahan

I think folks sometimes forget that RPGs were about a fantasy environment where your character was not subject to all of the mental and physical shortcomings of the player. That was handled by character stats. When an "RPG" becomes entirely about the player's mental acuity or dexterity, it risks becoming more of a normal game than a role playing game - at least in the traditional sense.

(repost)