Jeromy Walsh Answers Critics of the Three Month Exposition (headstart) in Chronicles of Elyria

lunawisp

Some people have been, understandably, worried about the idea of giving others a three month headstart in what is essentially an open world PvP game. Soulbound Studio's Jeromy Walsh explains the reasoning behind this decision.

With all of the questions about Exposition (the three month story-development phase), losing resources, land, titles, etc... we wanted to re-assure people that the goal of exposition, while partly to build conflict, story, and unfolding events, is also about giving early players an opportunity to build out a flourishing world.

It's notably difficult to do that when there's potentially people attempting to tear it down. The point of Exposition is to exit with a world fully developed, not smoldering in ashes. 

Read the entire post on Kickstarter.

rodarin

Still doesnt address the game breaking issue of all the ore and non renewable resources that will be collected and used or hoarded, having it basically a PvP free world makes that even easier to accomplish.

That is of course if their definition of finite isnt the same as everyone leses.

Maygus

There is going to be a metric f*** load of resources.

However he has stated that should resources become strained, natural disasters can occur.

lunawisp

rodarin said:

Still doesnt address the game breaking issue of all the ore and non renewable resources that will be collected and used or hoarded, having it basically a PvP free world makes that even easier to accomplish.

That is of course if their definition of finite isnt the same as everyone leses.

We'll just have to wait and see. But in a true open world PvP game, hoarding of resources is a perfectly valid tactic and it's up to to others to find a way to overcome it. There's no way a measly three month headstart by a few thousand people, a lot of whom won't be interested in that sort of activity anyway, is going to make that much difference to the resources in the game though...the 'world' is huge.

rodarin

I love when people assume the best, and things that no one knows yet not even the people making the game. We dont know anything about the size of the world or how many resources it will have. So just stop trying to use that as some sort of justification. 

Either way it wasnt a very good compromise. They should wipe the servers like every other game does. The whole 'starting players have to flesh out the world' is  a load of crap. Once people learn what they need to learn they will have the stuff that they built in the 3 month head start remade within a month. Or if they claim they need player built towns leave the building standing and allow them to be claimed or fought over by anyone (unless there on some kickstarter backers kingdom or whatever.

This is a veiled way for them to raise more money by 'persuading' people who want to be competitive (or just join an established group) to give them enough money to get in early.

Even as pay to win and screwed up as Archeage was, and I bought the 150 dollar package to that game, it still only gave 3 or 4 days headstart, and that was destroyed because 90% of the servers had queues and made it impossible for most people to play anyway. And even then 75% of the land was gone and people had already established themselves. Yea I know the excuses people will make about this game and that game, theyre irrelevant. 3 months is insanely long, the only thing late comers can hope for is that if this game gets made it suffers from the same types of population losses every game has and that after 3 months it will lose 75% of the people who started it on day one.

This looks like another great concept game that is destined to be like all the others, either over reaching and trying too much or implementing extremely bad decisions into the gameplay and how the game is run, or more than likely a bit of both.

DixonHill

This new set of rules for the "head start" seems to make sure, that things "get done". Cities being built, playershops, roads. Heck even player family houses and farms, etc for new players to spawn in.
Anything really to be competive about.

@rodarin :
Soulbound has  planed for a ten year story. They can control how many characters are on a server, have (in therory) control over how many people enter the headstart, they can control how many initial ressources there are, how many a char could gather per hour if it was placed in his face, etc,etc.
Somehow i HIGHLY doubt that there is even a remote chance for all or most of the ressources being "gone" within the first  few months.
Souldbound would have to misscalculated something badly then.

drakeordanska

Those who state that people in the head starter can "horde" resources. You understand that you can steal said horde right?

(Edit)
You also realise the ppl in the headstart could also make some nice detailed maps for you to use too. As well as complete some basic houses in towns for people.

Kyleran

I read it as people who head start get several periods of "training wheels" before facing this supposedly "controlled" PVP environment.

I suspect the anarchy factor in this game will be greater than many of the backers believe right now.

Some men just like to see the world burn.

Octagon7711

I think Devs have always underestimated the zeal of some PvP'ers and just how much time, energy, and resources they are willing to put into a game to get an edge over the crowd.

Slapshot1188

@OP...  umm.. hate to tell you this but that makes it even WORSE.  So these high roller folks not only get 3 months head start, but the first month is free from any concerns about PvP?  The only time they have to worry is the last week to last month?   Pure character/resource development time...  GREAT! (for the head start folks..)

So our plan as of now is to take the three month period of Exposition and divide it up into three phases. During the first phase there will be no non-voluntary PvP. Meaning, you can spar/duel in order to begin mastering combat, but you will not be able to attack other friendlies. At the same time, you will not be able to commit any crimes. No stealing, lock-picking, etc...

During the second phase you will be able to commit most crimes as well as incapacitate other players, but you will not be able to coup de grace, nor build siege equipment.

During the third and final phase the gloves come off. We will give players anywhere from one week to one month of unrestrained, open-world PvP before the server finally opens. The amount of time will depend upon the state of the world during exposition.

lunawisp

There are positive people and there are negative people.

The positive people push the accellerator hard and sometimes go over the cliff. The negative people slam the brakes on every few minutes in panic. We need both in the world. At the end of the day, as for any other game being launched, we'll just have to wait and see.

Personally, I see CoE as a breath of fresh air and I decided to give the developers my support. I hope things work out and we get a great new MMO out of it.

jozeph

Why wouldn't you be able to be competitive if you're not there at the first day? Is it pointless to start playing a mmorpg which has launched more that a few days ago? Is it pointless to start play an mmorpg if you have a real life and can't spend 20 hours online each day?

Distopia

jozeph said:

Why wouldn't you be able to be competitive if you're not there at the first day? Is it pointless to start playing a mmorpg which has launched more that a few days ago? Is it pointless to start play an mmorpg if you have a real life and can't spend 20 hours online each day?

It's the proverbial bone people have picked up in regard to this game, if it weren't this, it would be something else. They'll chew on this until something more damning comes along.

TBH if this is a problem (which it would be regardless of any headstarts) it's best they find that issue 3 months in when the greater playerbase joins, rather than down the road when it would just be solitary voices complaining about balance in power.

Because if there is a real issue here, it wouldn't be due to headstart, it would be due to game balance, and game systems.. There's always going to be people coming into a game 3 months after others.  If there are severe issue caused due to that, that's an issue with the game itself and how it's put together, it would be a problem regardless of what type of headstart is given to certain folks.  

  

DXSins

"It's notably difficult to do that when there's potentially people attempting to tear it down.
The point of Exposition is to exit with a world fully developed, not smoldering in ashes."

Is that some play on reverse psychology or they really that naive to go after a pvp player base and not expect that behaviour?

They already got over 1.5k people over the price for the 3 months EA and they expecting them all to be carebearing, city builder, storytellers? lol.

lunawisp

MrSyn said:

"It's notably difficult to do that when there's potentially people attempting to tear it down.
The point of Exposition is to exit with a world fully developed, not smoldering in ashes."

Is that some play on reverse psychology or they really that naive to go after a pvp player base and not expect that behaviour?

They already got over 1.5k people over the price for the 3 months EA and they expecting them all to be carebearing, city builder, storytellers? lol.

Of course not. That's why they're turning non-consensual PvP off for the first month with some lesser restrictions in the second month of that period so that people can get things set up before having to worry about having things stolen, etc. Remember, this game is largely player driven, few things exist unless they've been crafted by players.

MikePaladin

MrSyn said:

"It's notably difficult to do that when there's potentially people attempting to tear it down.
The point of Exposition is to exit with a world fully developed, not smoldering in ashes."

Is that some play on reverse psychology or they really that naive to go after a pvp player base and not expect that behaviour?

They already got over 1.5k people over the price for the 3 months EA and they expecting them all to be carebearing, city builder, storytellers? lol.

Well that has some reasoning  mostly PVP crowd rushes for head start advantage......I thought I'm a PVE/PVPer but apparently I am not....
In Survival I tend to Build Stuff and to be as friendly as possible but every single time I end on the war path because of people attacking me ....

I think CoE should not be about PVP by today norms first it ruins community and server population
Open world PVP in most cases is about  Player doing quest or crafting mining  vs CrowdOfPlayers.
Idk but I was thought destroying is not building and this logic follows me entire life. But from Survival game I noticed most people aren't like that .....
I managed to make a guild that will be loyal to this concept  but our loses were so much bigger.

We were building evolving peacefully got raided attacked after what we were destroying our enemy completely on a open war path ....
While other aggressive tribes where killing every one to not let them stand up ....

This is the problem with PvP in open world it's a mess but I want it to be like in real life


Yes I can Punch this dude I can kill him but there will be consequences very harsh consequences .
I want there to be War but they should be very expensive and people be extremely careful with it ..

PVP like WOW Arena or PVP maps or gw2 arena WvW  or LoL pvp   in Open world MMORPG is just wrong .

Open world PVP should be like in real life I can kill you you can kill me but we won't do it just for fun but in extreme situations in case of robbery in case of war and so on ...


I know some RPG lovers  love this PVP mess in MMORPG but CoE in first place should be about

Massively multiplayer online ! Role-Playing Game !

I want CoE to be played with good attitude I don't want to see these aggressive chaotic PVPers that PVP for humiliating others and ruining some one day ....
I want a game where people approach PVP more rational more with Role Playing .
 My 2 pennies )))

Kyleran

jozeph said:

Why wouldn't you be able to be competitive if you're not there at the first day? Is it pointless to start playing a mmorpg which has launched more that a few days ago? Is it pointless to start play an mmorpg if you have a real life and can't spend 20 hours online each day?

You won't be competitive if you don't start the first day and play 20 hours a day. This has been true of almost every MMORPG I've ever played, those with much more free time than me always have a big advantage and I've learned to carve out my fun within this system.

One big reason I play EVE is the skill system is level capped so I can train (on or offline) to the same level as any veteran who may have started years before.

Despite starting 3 years after the games launch no one has better mining skills than I do, and there are many combat ships that I am the equal of anyone in.

That said, one of my corp mates owns 4 person Titans, the value of each about equal to my entire net worth in game, and I'm considered wealthy by most player standards.

More amazing is he pays for 4 subs (with PLEX I'm sure) for each of those accounts because once you sit a pilot in a Titan, it is all he can ever do as he cannot leave the ship as it can't be docked.

This is just now changing with the addition of Citadels,  but it will cost my alliance 80B ISK just for the blueprint, nevermind the massive amount of mined ore and PI components we'll have to farm to stand one up.

So it will be interesting to me to see if the designs COE puts in place allows a similar situation to not feel like 2nd class citizens for players who can't spend their entire lives in game.

drakeordanska

That's the point of opc. You character will be there doing his crafting whilst your offline. Now you can't go up levels without player input but you can train the skill upto a set point. 

Yes your opc can be killed but that's why you let him stay in the town. There will be warrior players whose opc is set to patrol the town as a guard.  So a gander comes along attacks your opc and he calls for the guard.
Now what the gander doesn't know is the warrior opc is normally played 15 hours a day and is a grandmaster. Her defeats the ganker with ease

Timberhick

drakeordanska said:

That's the point of opc. You character will be there doing his crafting whilst your offline. Now you can't go up levels without player input but you can train the skill upto a set point. 

Yes your opc can be killed but that's why you let him stay in the town. There will be warrior players whose opc is set to patrol the town as a guard.  So a gander comes along attacks your opc and he calls for the guard.
Now what the gander doesn't know is the warrior opc is normally played 15 hours a day and is a grandmaster. Her defeats the ganker with ease

You do realize the whole OPC thing is still theory, right?

I will laugh my ass off when the servers are open to all comes and the whole OPC concept is still 'in development'.  That whole cushion people are expecting is nowhere to be found, then what?

MikePaladin

Kyleran said:

jozeph said:

Why wouldn't you be able to be competitive if you're not there at the first day? Is it pointless to start playing a mmorpg which has launched more that a few days ago? Is it pointless to start play an mmorpg if you have a real life and can't spend 20 hours online each day?

You won't be competitive if you don't start the first day and play 20 hours a day. This has been true of almost every MMORPG I've ever played, those with much more free time than me always have a big advantage and I've learned to carve out my fun within this system.

This is why I don't bother anymore about this issue . Recently I couldn't get even 1 hour a day to play  I just can't find time for gaming  so ...all this competitiveness is just nonsense coming from big mouth of no life grinders....

But I don't agree with Life quality cash shop which is worse for example BDO auto-looting pet that need cash shop with terrible looting and lot of looting .. I hate when they put life quality stuff in cash shop and so forcing me to throw pennies in cash shop  .

Gw2 is a good example of development around Cash Shop for years they nerf good farming in game and rewarding and only add trash stuff to their Cash shop ...so that we check out more and more for weapon skins and armor skins .

Deffcon_1

This idea that the headstart breaks the game is honestly laughable. If this were true then no game would gain new players after it launches. Does it give them an advantage, sure its wrong to say it doesnt. Does it make it so those that join on launch day will never compete, not even close. In a game that is not gear or level based and is focused on player skill for so many things, a 3 month headstart is FAR from god mode or anything like that.

Wizardry

Gaming is sadly TOO MUCH about business.Too much of our game designs are looking at the business side rather than the true gaming side.COE is seems to be the FIRST developer to show me some signs of passionate game building,since the days of Carmack and Naughty Dog and a few others from Square Enix and the likes of present and former Epic games employees.

True passionate developers still exist but are far and few between,then we have to hope they have the money and clout to pull off a great game,it is a near impossible combination to attain.

filmoret

I can see where they are coming from.  Everyone cries for a true sandbox and when a company finally makes one they cry because it isn't like all the other failed attempts.  You want a true sandbox but honestly if you set 100k people loose on a world with open pvp there will probably never be a world to have fun in.  Which is why I understand that the first month is a pve building process.  Which cannot consist of 100k people because then it would just be a massive mess of created piles of whatever.  They could however allow the final phase to be launch instead of early access.  This does have its drawbacks as well because the system hasn't been tested fully and just throwing 100k people into a pvp setting that hasn't been truly tested will result is an even bigger mess.

The only way to avoid this is to create pve starting cities.  Then you have the challenge of making it without affecting the player made cities.  It would be cool if you could start in player made cities and even have votes from players saying if this city is a good one to start in ect ect...

Nanfoodle

It's only a problem if your a "I have to be first" kinda gamer. If that's you pony up and pay for what you enjoy. As said above, after launch games get new players every month. It's kinda how MMOs work. So not a deal breaker. 

Astropuyo

Kyleran said:

jozeph said:

Why wouldn't you be able to be competitive if you're not there at the first day? Is it pointless to start playing a mmorpg which has launched more that a few days ago? Is it pointless to start play an mmorpg if you have a real life and can't spend 20 hours online each day?

You won't be competitive if you don't start the first day and play 20 hours a day. This has been true of almost every MMORPG I've ever played, those with much more free time than me always have a big advantage and I've learned to carve out my fun within this system.

One big reason I play EVE is the skill system is level capped so I can train (on or offline) to the same level as any veteran who may have started years before.

Despite starting 3 years after the games launch no one has better mining skills than I do, and there are many combat ships that I am the equal of anyone in.

That said, one of my corp mates owns 4 person Titans, the value of each about equal to my entire net worth in game, and I'm considered wealthy by most player standards.

More amazing is he pays for 4 subs (with PLEX I'm sure) for each of those accounts because once you sit a pilot in a Titan, it is all he can ever do as he cannot leave the ship as it can't be docked.

This is just now changing with the addition of Citadels,  but it will cost my alliance 80B ISK just for the blueprint, nevermind the massive amount of mined ore and PI components we'll have to farm to stand one up.

So it will be interesting to me to see if the designs COE puts in place allows a similar situation to not feel like 2nd class citizens for players who can't spend their entire lives in game.

Yeah onto the eve topic. Except I am sure you haven't anything on many decade players.
At best your mad crazy mining skills are like alt 54 for some of us.
Some alts which were started pre-goon craziness low sec nightmare fun. (Ie ultra padded).

And maybe just MAYBE mining may be all grand but what else is?

You can't say "I am equal to a 10 year but I'm a 7".

No those of us who started eve at it's start have had so many more chances and choice moments to really get looted up etc. SP is a small part of the eve universe. It certainly doesn't equalize things.



Time matters. That's all that truly matters in a mmo. How much time ahead of the "other fish" you have.
How much time you can create a buffer for. People who act humble about their mmo experience are cute but also liars. We all play to compete in some way. All of us do. Those who don't are most likely dead.

3 months in a modern mmo is equal to about half a decade of work in a older mmo.



Facts are the only reason you'd of matched anyone 3 years late to the party is the fact they buffed sp gain.

Vucar

rodarin said:

I love when people assume the best, and things that no one knows yet not even the people making the game. We dont know anything about the size of the world or how many resources it will have. So just stop trying to use that as some sort of justification. 

Either way it wasnt a very good compromise. They should wipe the servers like every other game does. The whole 'starting players have to flesh out the world' is  a load of crap. Once people learn what they need to learn they will have the stuff that they built in the 3 month head start remade within a month. Or if they claim they need player built towns leave the building standing and allow them to be claimed or fought over by anyone (unless there on some kickstarter backers kingdom or whatever.

This is a veiled way for them to raise more money by 'persuading' people who want to be competitive (or just join an established group) to give them enough money to get in early.

Even as pay to win and screwed up as Archeage was, and I bought the 150 dollar package to that game, it still only gave 3 or 4 days headstart, and that was destroyed because 90% of the servers had queues and made it impossible for most people to play anyway. And even then 75% of the land was gone and people had already established themselves. Yea I know the excuses people will make about this game and that game, theyre irrelevant. 3 months is insanely long, the only thing late comers can hope for is that if this game gets made it suffers from the same types of population losses every game has and that after 3 months it will lose 75% of the people who started it on day one.

This looks like another great concept game that is destined to be like all the others, either over reaching and trying too much or implementing extremely bad decisions into the gameplay and how the game is run, or more than likely a bit of both.

-Archeage was extremely limited in housing space
-Archeage had limitless resources
-Archeage had limitless gold farming

Apples and oranges

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